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Posted: 1/11/2006 12:32:40 PM EDT
Just wondering how many of you would, if caught up in some situation where surrender is possible to a foreign invasion/looters etc. and resistence futile (for you), would fight to the death anyway so as to at least slow them down?

Would it make a difference if your women and children's lives were in your hands as opposed to just your own?
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 12:41:24 PM EDT
I've done this at least with my career anyways. I refused to sell out some folks and became the mortal enemy of my boss. I knew what I would face and would not bring dishonor upon myself nor these people.

I am the whipping boy but I still have my dignity.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 12:53:21 PM EDT
"it is far better to die on your feet, then live on your knees"
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 12:58:42 PM EDT
Ask a member of the NATO ground forces in Europe what their job was during a Soviet invasion...
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:01:15 PM EDT
Always keep atleast one extra round hiddin somewhere secure .
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:03:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 1:03:53 PM EDT by macman37]
This is a very good question, one that we should all do some serious, no-macho-BS introspection on.

There are a lot of black-and-white, "cross THIS line and I'll shoot" scenarios we can invent and pontificate on... Break-in at the home? Shoot to end the threat, if any. Foreign crazies/massive invasion force? Shoot early, and often.

But then there are the gray areas that inhabit reality. If your family isn't in direct jeopardy, why involve them? The living room is so warm and inviting and not muddy and nobody's shooting at you.

This isn't an indictment of anyone. I need to find my "line" just like the next guy does. It's a tough decision and I am glad I don't have to make it right now. I should do some thinking on it though. Everybody needs to know when enough is enough for them.

I guess if resistance is futile... I'm sending the wife away to someplace safe and fighting tooth and nail. If there are no safe places to send her, we're bugging out and E&E until we can't E&E anymore.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:05:58 PM EDT
Never, never, never give up.
Winston Churchill
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:07:37 PM EDT

Show them no mercy....for you shall receive none!



Women of this country learned long ago: Those without a sword can still die upon them



Small chance for sucess and certain death
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:08:36 PM EDT
Fight!
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:09:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 1:10:18 PM EDT by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By TheCynic:
Ask a member of the NATO ground forces in Europe what their job was during a Soviet invasion...



Yup.

I recently mentioned this in another thread as well, but my regiment's role (and the other regiments in our brigade) was to die as slowly as possible. We knew that we couldn't actually stop the WAPA armored divisions that would be coming (Polish, East German and Soviet forces were earmarked for us), so our job was to try to slow them down to give our joint Danish/German armored divisions time to prepare, along with U.S. and Brit reinforcements. And with three MG-3's, three Carl Gustav 84mm's, and a Ma Deuce in each light infantry platoon, we could at least go down swinging.

Denmark especially learned a bitter and embarassing lesson on April 9, 1941. When the Germans invaded, the Danish army had been neglected for decades, and would have been completely swept aside by the Germans. The Germans essentially gave the Danish government (and king) two choices - fight, and we'd be crushed, and the ensuing occupation would be heavy-handed and brutal. Or, surrender, and the occupation would be very benign, and Denmark would essentially be allowed to govern itself, with minimal German involvment. To their shame, the government chose the more pragmatic course and capitulated. (However, as a point of regimental pride, my regiment did in fact fight the germans in 1941 - for an extend firefight at the royal palace, where they stopped the Germans cold )
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 2:04:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
The Germans essentially gave the Danish government (and king) two choices - fight, and we'd be crushed, and the ensuing occupation would be heavy-handed and brutal. Or, surrender, and the occupation would be very benign, and Denmark would essentially be allowed to govern itself, with minimal German involvment. To their shame, the government chose the more pragmatic course and capitulated. (However, as a point of regimental pride, my regiment did in fact fight the germans in 1941 - for an extend firefight at the royal palace, where they stopped the Germans cold )




<-------- insert dutch flag


All kidding aside, that is a fine, fine thing.

Link Posted: 1/11/2006 2:12:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 2:16:49 PM EDT by happycynic]

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By TheCynic:
Ask a member of the NATO ground forces in Europe what their job was during a Soviet invasion...



Yup.

I recently mentioned this in another thread as well, but my regiment's role (and the other regiments in our brigade) was to die as slowly as possible. We knew that we couldn't actually stop the WAPA armored divisions that would be coming (Polish, East German and Soviet forces were earmarked for us), so our job was to try to slow them down to give our joint Danish/German armored divisions time to prepare, along with U.S. and Brit reinforcements. And with three MG-3's, three Carl Gustav 84mm's, and a Ma Deuce in each light infantry platoon, we could at least go down swinging.

Denmark especially learned a bitter and embarassing lesson on April 9, 1941. When the Germans invaded, the Danish army had been neglected for decades, and would have been completely swept aside by the Germans. The Germans essentially gave the Danish government (and king) two choices - fight, and we'd be crushed, and the ensuing occupation would be heavy-handed and brutal. Or, surrender, and the occupation would be very benign, and Denmark would essentially be allowed to govern itself, with minimal German involvment. To their shame, the government chose the more pragmatic course and capitulated. (However, as a point of regimental pride, my regiment did in fact fight the germans in 1941 - for an extend firefight at the royal palace, where they stopped the Germans cold )




Sounds like a good story. Link?
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 2:15:20 PM EDT
Ask Travis, Crockett and Bowie.


"If we succeed, the country is ours. It is immense in extent, and fertile in its soil and will amply reward our toil. If we fail, death in the cause of liberty and humanity is not cause for shuddering. Our rifles are by our side, and choice guns they are, we know what awaits us, and are prepared to meet it."

Letter from Daniel William Cloud of Kentucky, a defender of the Alamo, en route to San Antonio, dated Dec. 26, 1835.


Link Posted: 1/11/2006 2:30:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 2:32:52 PM EDT by weptek911]
Fight to the death.

Just watch anything on the history channel about the Bataan Death March if you have any doubts, or watch any of the latest Jihadi beheading videos.

In todays world it his highly unlikely if not impossible to need to fight anyone that would obey the Geneva Conventions. Anyone civilized enough to adhere, is very unlikely to invade.

What was the last war where both sides at least tried to abide by them ? The Falklands ?. (I'm asking not asserting )

Link Posted: 1/11/2006 2:33:16 PM EDT
Churchill answered this question well quite a while ago:

Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed, if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not so costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no chance of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 2:33:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:
This is a very good question, one that we should all do some serious, no-macho-BS introspection on.

There are a lot of black-and-white, "cross THIS line and I'll shoot" scenarios we can invent and pontificate on... Break-in at the home? Shoot to end the threat, if any. Foreign crazies/massive invasion force? Shoot early, and often.

But then there are the gray areas that inhabit reality. If your family isn't in direct jeopardy, why involve them? The living room is so warm and inviting and not muddy and nobody's shooting at you.

This isn't an indictment of anyone. I need to find my "line" just like the next guy does. It's a tough decision and I am glad I don't have to make it right now. I should do some thinking on it though. Everybody needs to know when enough is enough for them.

I guess if resistance is futile... I'm sending the wife away to someplace safe and fighting tooth and nail. If there are no safe places to send her, we're bugging out and E&E until we can't E&E anymore.



Very good question.
I searched for an answer for a long time...still not sure if I have found it.
The below link may help put things in perspective.
Read it
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 2:46:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JLH3:
Ask Travis, Crockett and Bowie.


"If we succeed, the country is ours. It is immense in extent, and fertile in its soil and will amply reward our toil. If we fail, death in the cause of liberty and humanity is not cause for shuddering. Our rifles are by our side, and choice guns they are, we know what awaits us, and are prepared to meet it."

Letter from Daniel William Cloud of Kentucky, a defender of the Alamo, en route to San Antonio, dated Dec. 26, 1835.





Remember the Alamo.

And God bless Texas.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 2:53:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 2:56:37 PM EDT by Grunteled]
Sometimes when faced with life in a world that you would not want to be a part of and the near certainty of death fighting to keep that from coming to be the choice is less complicated than we think. Without that drive and honor there would be little worth fighting for and little that couldn't be taken from you with simple numbers.

Sometimes heart overcomes vastly greater numbers, and sometimes death is a better, more comforting outcome than life as a slave.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 2:55:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By JLH3:
Ask Travis, Crockett and Bowie.


"If we succeed, the country is ours. It is immense in extent, and fertile in its soil and will amply reward our toil. If we fail, death in the cause of liberty and humanity is not cause for shuddering. Our rifles are by our side, and choice guns they are, we know what awaits us, and are prepared to meet it."

Letter from Daniel William Cloud of Kentucky, a defender of the Alamo, en route to San Antonio, dated Dec. 26, 1835.





Remember the Alamo.

And God bless Texas.



Yes sir!
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 2:56:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
(However, as a point of regimental pride, my regiment did in fact fight the germans in 1941 - for an extend firefight at the royal palace, where they stopped the Germans cold )



That is certainly something to find great pride in.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 2:56:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Very good question.
I searched for an answer for a long time...still not sure if I have found it.
The below link may help put things in perspective.
Read it



Good link.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 2:59:19 PM EDT
Sometimes the maxim .."Live to fight another day..." is valid. Just so long as it is not a rationalization, but an honest intent. For example, if I am alone, and there are too many coming over the hill, I'll withdraw as quietly as possible from my (assuming known) position. The trouble is, the enemy will never know a peaceful day or night - I'll pick them off as best I can.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 3:01:06 PM EDT
I just dont' know sometimes. Living to fight another day is more easily said than done. If you've got a bunch of enemy inbound that you've already engaged, they'll just corner you and wrap you up like we're doing to insurgents in Iraq right now. Sometimes, you just have no choice...
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 3:10:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Very good question.
I searched for an answer for a long time...still not sure if I have found it.
The below link may help put things in perspective.
Read it



Good link.



+1 very good link...


Americans won't rise up, either, even when it's too late. In the unlikely event we do organize for revolt, we'll lose. Since I can't imagine living in the future America I envision, I expect to die. And when I die, I don't expect to be surrounded by friends. So enemies will have to do. I just don't want to die alone.


That, friends, is some powerful stuff.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 3:14:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Very good question.
I searched for an answer for a long time...still not sure if I have found it.
The below link may help put things in perspective.
Read it



Good link.



+1 very good link...


Americans won't rise up, either, even when it's too late. In the unlikely event we do organize for revolt, we'll lose. Since I can't imagine living in the future America I envision, I expect to die. And when I die, I don't expect to be surrounded by friends. So enemies will have to do. I just don't want to die alone.


That, friends, is some powerful stuff.




Yes it is, and it's probably very correct.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 3:16:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
The Germans essentially gave the Danish government (and king) two choices - fight, and we'd be crushed, and the ensuing occupation would be heavy-handed and brutal. Or, surrender, and the occupation would be very benign, and Denmark would essentially be allowed to govern itself, with minimal German involvment. To their shame, the government chose the more pragmatic course and capitulated. (However, as a point of regimental pride, my regiment did in fact fight the germans in 1941 - for an extend firefight at the royal palace, where they stopped the Germans cold )




<-------- insert dutch flag


All kidding aside, that is a fine, fine thing.




+1
Fighting & dying against overwhelming odds may suck but at least you'd have great drinking buddies in Valhalla
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 3:19:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 4:19:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 0612Devil:
I just dont' know sometimes. Living to fight another day is more easily said than done. If you've got a bunch of enemy inbound that you've already engaged, they'll just corner you and wrap you up like we're doing to insurgents in Iraq right now. Sometimes, you just have no choice...



True. It depends on the local situation at the time, and the terrain. In the situation you describe, as you said, one has no choice, so make a good fight of it.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 5:29:04 AM EDT
I guess it all depends, do i as a non-Muslim also get 72 virgins???? If i do then ill go down fightin! ALLAH CARTE!!!

I think it says in the bible when a Christian dies in battle he goes to heavan and gets to water Gods Pot plants and walk his dog!!
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 5:35:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 5:36:35 AM EDT by Whitepitt]
Remember the Spartans at Thermopolaye.(sp?)
Read the Book "Gates of Fire."
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 5:36:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JusAdBellum:
Just wondering how many of you would, if caught up in some situation where surrender is possible to a foreign invasion/looters etc. and resistence futile (for you), would fight to the death anyway so as to at least slow them down?

Would it make a difference if your women and children's lives were in your hands as opposed to just your own?



Remember the Alamo!!!
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 5:50:43 AM EDT
I hope I have the facts rights here...Delta snipers Gordon and Shughart both knew of the extreme possibility of their deaths at the hands of Somalis but both didn't hesistate to rope down to a downed Blackhawk and shoot it out against impossible odds to save the wounded from being killed and dead soldiers paraded around by their enemies. Doing what they did earned them the nations highest award for valor and my undying respect as true warriors.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 6:01:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By doom1430:
I hope I have the facts rights here...Delta snipers Gordon and Shughart both knew of the extreme possibility of their deaths at the hands of Somalis but both didn't hesistate to rope down to a downed Blackhawk and shoot it out against impossible odds to save the wounded from being killed and dead soldiers paraded around by their enemies. Doing what they did earned them the nations highest award for valor and my undying respect as true warriors.



Doom, where did you get your sig line quote???

FWIW that is what happened to Shughart and Gordon. It wasn't explored in any depth in the BHD book but was a very well portrayed (accurate? I don't know, nobody knows but the Somali butchers ) part of the movie.

Back to topic, after rereading the thread and pontificating upon it overnight, if the situation is as bad as JusAdBellum says and there is no way out... There's gonna be a lot of noise.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 6:15:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 6:17:31 AM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Oops.... see my old sig line

To be born free is a blessing
To live free is a right
To die free is an obligation
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