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Posted: 1/10/2006 8:41:45 AM EDT
www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/60058.htm

January 8, 2006 -- As a woman, New Yorker Norah Vincent was used to being stared at by men she passed in her Village neighborhood. It's a way men "assert their dominance," she says.

But she often wondered what was behind those stares. So she conducted an experiment.

Like John Howard Griffin, who disguised himself as an African-American in the South of 1959 for "Black Like Me," and Gregory Peck playing a writer posing as a Jew to investigate anti-Semitism in the Oscar-winning "Gentleman's Agreement," Vincent went undercover.

With makeup, workouts, wardrobe and a voice coach, she became a man and plunged into a world she had only known from the other side.

The result is a book, "Self-Made Man" (Viking, $24.95), in which Vincent, a journalist, tells how she used her childhood nickname, Ned, and joined a men's bowling league; went into the woods with nearly three dozen guys for a touchy-feely retreat; got a job with a testosterone-fueled sales force; and hung out with her guy pals at strip clubs.

She even went out on some dates with women, although Vincent revealed her true identity before things went too far.

To transform herself into a convincing man, Vincent, who's gay, glued tiny clippings of synthetic hair to her face for a 5 o'clock shadow, and got a flat-top haircut. She bound her breasts with a cupless sports bra and wore loose-fitting clothes and layers, lifted weights and consumed a lot of protein.

She even wore a prosthetic penis in a jockstrap.

In the end, Vincent was surprised by her stereotype-defying discoveries, which included:

* It's men who frequently suffer rejection — and supposedly emotionally in-tune women are extraordinarily self-absorbed.

* Although men are supposedly the dominant species, it's women who dominate most dating conversations.

"I listened to them talk literally for hours about the most minute, mind-numbing details of their personal lives," Vincent writes. "Listening to them was like undergoing a slow frontal lobotomy."

* Women are responsible for some of the hostility they encounter while playing the dating game.

"The women who were hostile to me made me mad," she writes, "and that made me want to be hostile to them. I can't imagine men in the same position not reacting the same way."

* Women could learn a lot about sincerity from a man's handshake.

On her first night of bowling, Vincent's team's captain, Jim, offered his hand in introduction. "There was something so warm and bonded in this handshake . . . It was more affectionate than any handshake I'd ever received from a strange woman. To me, woman-to-woman introductions often seem fake and cold, full of limp gentility."

Vincent was also surprised to hear manly, muscular men complain about being "ob jectified."

Toby, from the men's self-help group she joined, "was built like an English bulldog, with wide lats, burly shoulders and a tiny waist." But he moaned, "Every time I come into a room or restaurant, especially with other guys, I can see the fear on their faces, like they think I'm going to hurt them. They assume I'm violent because of the way I look."

Vincent compares that to men presuming all blondes are bimbos.

Even the sleazy strip-club culture should not all be blamed on men, Vincent now believes. After observing a strip joint as a man, she decided it wasn't only a place men visited "to be beasts. It was also where women came to exercise some vestige of sexual power in the most unvarnished way possible."

What Vincent hated most about being a man, she wrote, was that society expects men to express limited emotions.

"As a guy, you get about a three-note emotional range. That's it as far as the outside world is concerned," she writes. "Women get octaves, chromatic scales of tears and joys and anxieties . . . but guys get little more than bravado and rage."


Very interesting read... I am kind of half-tempted to pick up the book and read.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:44:43 AM EDT
shes gay. This is not a study, but a fullfillment of a fantasy.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:48:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gaspain:
shes gay. This is not a study, but a fullfillment of a fantasy.



Ditto. If anything else doesn't give that fact away, the fake penis does.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:49:41 AM EDT

* Women could learn a lot about sincerity from a man's handshake.



a big "NO SHIT!!" to that
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:50:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gaspain:
shes gay. This is not a study, but a fullfillment of a fantasy.



LOL. This just might be true. Still, in what I read above, she made some good observations and learned a thing or two.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:51:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 8:51:30 AM EDT by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By gaspain:
shes gay. This is not a study, but a fullfillment of a fantasy.




Just from that short summary, it sounds like she already may have had some negative preconceptions about straight women (and looked for confirmation in her interactions with them as a man).

It would have been 1000 x more interesting if this "study" had been done by a straight woman.


Still, there probably is some neat stuff in there.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:51:14 AM EDT
thats your expert opinion gaspain,being as you know so much about lesbians i bet. aside from your having turned dozens of women gay what else can you tell us?
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:52:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 8:53:36 AM EDT by SHIVAN]

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:
Very interesting read... I am kind of half-tempted to pick up the book and read.



Leave your "man card" on the desk when you leave.



Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:56:25 AM EDT
Kind of reminds me of this video.

www.thatvideosite.com/view/1337.html
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:56:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:
Very interesting read... I am kind of half-tempted to pick up the book and read.



Leave your "man card" on the desk when you leave.

photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=37875




This is hardly what I would constitute "giving up your man card" situation.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:58:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WindGapAR15:
thats your expert opinion gaspain,being as you know so much about lesbians i bet. aside from your having turned dozens of women gay what else can you tell us?



say it in english
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:03:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 9:04:06 AM EDT by SHIVAN]

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
Leave your "man card" on the desk when you leave.






This is hardly what I would constitute "giving up your man card" situation.



...The offender does not get to qualify the offense.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:03:54 AM EDT
...consumed a lot of protein.

Too funny.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:03:58 AM EDT
* It's men who frequently suffer rejection — and supposedly emotionally in-tune women are extraordinarily self-absorbed.


Self Absorbed is a understatement of biblical proportions, haha.

I hope this book does well. It's good for someone to be able to present a fresh perspective onto sometihng most of us take for granted. Women usually get all the spotlight, whining about how men don't listen, don't care, blah blah, and how women are so much better than men etc, and that men are always the ones at fault in dating scenarios.

Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:06:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Still, there probably is some neat stuff in there.



You have to consider what type of background this woman has. If she is the type of lesbian who has been one since her early teens and has been the She-Ra man-hater type, she might indeed have some interesting things to say. Nothing is as good at destroying stereotypes as having to confront examples that defy your indoctrination on the matter.

Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:07:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
...consumed a lot of protein.

Too funny.



Thank you very much.

I didn't give that line a second thought until YOUR sick mind felt the need to share with the group.....

You bastard!
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:08:23 AM EDT

Like John Howard Griffin, who disguised himself as an African-American in the South of 1959 for "Black Like Me," and Gregory Peck playing a writer posing as a Jew to investigate anti-Semitism in the Oscar-winning "Gentleman's Agreement," Vincent went undercover.


Or like the classic Eddie Murphy SNL skit.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:10:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:
With makeup, workouts, wardrobe and a voice coach, she became a man and plunged into a world she had only known from the other side.



Didn't need to spend a bundle on the makeup...






Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:21:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:

"I listened to them talk literally for hours about the most minute, mind-numbing details of their personal lives," Vincent writes. "Listening to them was like undergoing a slow frontal lobotomy."



LMFAO!!!
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:26:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By gaspain:
shes gay. This is not a study, but a fullfillment of a fantasy.




Just from that short summary, it sounds like she already may have had some negative preconceptions about straight women (and looked for confirmation in her interactions with them as a man).

It would have been 1000 x more interesting if this "study" had been done by a straight woman.


Still, there probably is some neat stuff in there.



Agreed...On another note, my Dad thought it was VERY important to teach my brothers the importance of a firm handshake. I thank God he also imparted this wisdom onto me: when I worked in the real world (stay at home mom now) I cannot tell you how many limp handshakes I was on the opposite end of. Most were from women. The wussy ones from the men always took me by surprise though.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:28:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Merrell:
Didn't need to spend a bundle on the makeup...

www.mckenna.edu/mmca/fn/18/18-01-7.jpg



Is that her?! She looks like Ray Romano, for God's sakes.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:29:04 AM EDT
I hate to be the guy that points this out, but if she was able to pass herself off as a man, she probably wasn't "getting stared at" as a woman.

And a "touchy-feely" retreat?
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:29:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NAM:

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:

"I listened to them talk literally for hours about the most minute, mind-numbing details of their personal lives," Vincent writes. "Listening to them was like undergoing a slow frontal lobotomy."



LMFAO!!!



Well, lesbian or not... she fucking nailed that one, eh!?
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:30:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NAM:

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:

"I listened to them talk literally for hours about the most minute, mind-numbing details of their personal lives," Vincent writes. "Listening to them was like undergoing a slow frontal lobotomy."



LMFAO!!!



Who said that? I didn't say that! No, wasn't me. I never even heard that and I wouldn't agree with it if I had. What was that again? Not me. Huh-uh.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:31:52 AM EDT
That is a classic case of "penis envy"
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:33:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Admiral_Crunch:

Originally Posted By Merrell:
Didn't need to spend a bundle on the makeup...

www.mckenna.edu/mmca/fn/18/18-01-7.jpg



Is that her?! She looks like Ray Romano, for God's sakes.



"That's no woman, that's a man baby!"
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:33:14 AM EDT
Looks like a fag. Can't believe these guys didn't catch on.
Gaspain you sir are right. I did like the part about the "frontal labotomy"
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:33:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Big_Louie:
I hate to be the guy that points this out, but if she was able to pass herself off as a man, she probably wasn't "getting stared at" as a woman.



Well, there are lots of reasons to stare at people. Like -- "Whaaaat?????


And a "touchy-feely" retreat?


I don't think I have ever been on one of those. We will do separate sleeping bags, thanks and, now that I think of it, I have my own tent, too.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 10:14:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gaspain:
shes gay. This is not a study, but a fullfillment of a fantasy.



I'm surprised after some reading some of her observations it didn't turn her straight. Sounds like she doesn't like women either.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 10:15:33 AM EDT

"I listened to them talk literally for hours about the most minute, mind-numbing details of their personal lives," Vincent writes. "Listening to them was like undergoing a slow frontal lobotomy."

Oh,, my,,, goodness......
--------
Chicks dig me for my mad lesbian skills.
~~~~~~
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 10:19:46 AM EDT
Didn't they already make a movie about this in the 80s? About some hot chick who dress like a man and goes to school. I forget the name.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 10:21:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 10:22:55 AM EDT by SJSAMPLE]
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 10:23:47 AM EDT
January 8, 2006 -- As a woman, New Yorker Norah Vincent was used to being stared at by men she passed in her Village neighborhood. It's a way men "assert their dominance," she says.


WTF maybe we just like looking at women.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 10:28:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 10:30:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:
* It's men who frequently suffer rejection — and supposedly emotionally in-tune women are extraordinarily self-absorbed.


You hear that bitches?!?!

Oh God - why wasn't I born a woman instead of a lesbian trapped in man's body which is what I am.

I'd give up being able to pee while standing, intelligence, the secret handshake - all of it just to alleviate half of the continual and mysterious rejection I encounter from all the womens.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 10:41:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Greenhorn:

Originally Posted By gaspain:
shes gay. This is not a study, but a fullfillment of a fantasy.



Ditto. If anything else doesn't give that fact away, the fake penis does.


Selected from her private collection of all sizes and colors...
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 10:44:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Merrell:

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:
With makeup, workouts, wardrobe and a voice coach, she became a man and plunged into a world she had only known from the other side.



Didn't need to spend a bundle on the makeup...


www.mckenna.edu/mmca/fn/18/18-01-7.jpg






WOW! I'd never have guessed she was a lesbian!
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 10:45:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JIMBEAM:
January 8, 2006 -- As a woman, New Yorker Norah Vincent was used to being stared at by men she passed in her Village neighborhood. It's a way men "assert their dominance," she says.


WTF maybe we just like looking at women.



Look at the picture!!!
Those men weren't asserting their "dominance", but giving a healthy "WTF?" look.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 10:53:30 AM EDT
you know she turned the penis around at some point.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 10:58:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cnow:
you know she turned the penis around at some point.



Hell, the rogue peepee buzzed loose, skittered down her leg and was last seen hightailing it out of town like giant pink wingless tomahawk... bystanders reported a concussive shock wave, or maybe a scream, as it disappeared into the night...



Link Posted: 1/10/2006 11:05:24 AM EDT
sounds interesting.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 11:06:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Merrell:

Originally Posted By cnow:
you know she turned the penis around at some point.



Hell, the rogue peepee buzzed loose, skittered down her leg and was last seen hightailing it out of town like giant pink wingless tomahawk... bystanders reported a concussive shock wave, or maybe a scream, as it disappeared into the night...



holy shit, THAT's a picture!!!

wonder if she talks about the diff between men and women at strip clubs? man, that's a shocker...

other than that, she's just discovering what we all pretty much know already...
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 11:07:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 11:07:46 AM EDT by hardcorps1775]
nd
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 11:11:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:
www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/60058.htm

January 8, 2006 -- As a woman, New Yorker Norah Vincent was used to being stared at by men she passed in her Village neighborhood. It's a way men "assert their dominance," she says.

But she often wondered what was behind those stares. So she conducted an experiment.

Like John Howard Griffin, who disguised himself as an African-American in the South of 1959 for "Black Like Me," and Gregory Peck playing a writer posing as a Jew to investigate anti-Semitism in the Oscar-winning "Gentleman's Agreement," Vincent went undercover.

With makeup, workouts, wardrobe and a voice coach, she became a man and plunged into a world she had only known from the other side.

The result is a book, "Self-Made Man" (Viking, $24.95), in which Vincent, a journalist, tells how she used her childhood nickname, Ned, and joined a men's bowling league; went into the woods with nearly three dozen guys for a touchy-feely retreat; got a job with a testosterone-fueled sales force; and hung out with her guy pals at strip clubs.

She even went out on some dates with women, although Vincent revealed her true identity before things went too far.

To transform herself into a convincing man, Vincent, who's gay, glued tiny clippings of synthetic hair to her face for a 5 o'clock shadow, and got a flat-top haircut. She bound her breasts with a cupless sports bra and wore loose-fitting clothes and layers, lifted weights and consumed a lot of protein.

She even wore a prosthetic penis in a jockstrap.

In the end, Vincent was surprised by her stereotype-defying discoveries, which included:

* It's men who frequently suffer rejection — and supposedly emotionally in-tune women are extraordinarily self-absorbed.

* Although men are supposedly the dominant species, it's women who dominate most dating conversations.

"I listened to them talk literally for hours about the most minute, mind-numbing details of their personal lives," Vincent writes. "Listening to them was like undergoing a slow frontal lobotomy."

* Women are responsible for some of the hostility they encounter while playing the dating game.

"The women who were hostile to me made me mad," she writes, "and that made me want to be hostile to them. I can't imagine men in the same position not reacting the same way."

* Women could learn a lot about sincerity from a man's handshake.

On her first night of bowling, Vincent's team's captain, Jim, offered his hand in introduction. "There was something so warm and bonded in this handshake . . . It was more affectionate than any handshake I'd ever received from a strange woman. To me, woman-to-woman introductions often seem fake and cold, full of limp gentility."

Vincent was also surprised to hear manly, muscular men complain about being "ob jectified."

Toby, from the men's self-help group she joined, "was built like an English bulldog, with wide lats, burly shoulders and a tiny waist." But he moaned, "Every time I come into a room or restaurant, especially with other guys, I can see the fear on their faces, like they think I'm going to hurt them. They assume I'm violent because of the way I look."

Vincent compares that to men presuming all blondes are bimbos.

Even the sleazy strip-club culture should not all be blamed on men, Vincent now believes. After observing a strip joint as a man, she decided it wasn't only a place men visited "to be beasts. It was also where women came to exercise some vestige of sexual power in the most unvarnished way possible."

What Vincent hated most about being a man, she wrote, was that society expects men to express limited emotions.

"As a guy, you get about a three-note emotional range. That's it as far as the outside world is concerned," she writes. "Women get octaves, chromatic scales of tears and joys and anxieties . . . but guys get little more than bravado and rage."


Very interesting read... I am kind of half-tempted to pick up the book and read.



I guess she has never listened to women chat amongst themselves...
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 11:48:30 AM EDT
"I listened to them talk literally for hours about the most minute, mind-numbing details of their personal lives," Vincent writes. "Listening to them was like undergoing a slow frontal lobotomy."

Amen to that... I've had a bunch like that.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 11:59:50 AM EDT
"I listened to them talk literally for hours about the most minute, mind-numbing details of their personal lives," Vincent writes. "Listening to them was like undergoing a slow frontal lobotomy."


And they wonder why men "tune out".

"Honey, did you hear a word I was saying???"



Women could learn a lot about sincerity from a man's handshake.

No $#!+.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 12:07:20 PM EDT
Sounds like she doesn't like women and likes men.

WTF is she a lesbian for then??
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 12:14:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gay Lesbo Vincent:
* Women are responsible for some of the hostility they encounter while playing the dating game.

some?

"The women who were hostile to me made me mad," she writes, "and that made me want to be hostile to them. I can't imagine men in the same position not reacting the same way."



Amen sister.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 12:33:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By gaspain:
shes gay. This is not a study, but a fullfillment of a fantasy.




Just from that short summary, it sounds like she already may have had some negative preconceptions about straight women (and looked for confirmation in her interactions with them as a man).

It would have been 1000 x more interesting if this "study" had been done by a straight woman.


Still, there probably is some neat stuff in there.



Agreed...On another note, my Dad thought it was VERY important to teach my brothers the importance of a firm handshake. I thank God he also imparted this wisdom onto me: when I worked in the real world (stay at home mom now) I cannot tell you how many limp handshakes I was on the opposite end of. Most were from women. The wussy ones from the men always took me by surprise though.



The first time I meet someone, I give a gentle handshake. It lets me gauge their personality better; are they aggressive or domineering, cheerful and friendly, or total wusses? If I just give a firm handshake, I don't get as much of an impression of theirs.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 2:59:52 PM EDT
Lesbian or not it sounds like she called it pretty good from my point of view except for the handshake thing. I don't judge guys from that. Some people just don't like to touch others and handshakes are just not desired at all.
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