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Posted: 1/10/2006 8:09:21 AM EDT
I know that there is no difference in the ammo. However, from a collector perspective is the ammo box marked "LE Ranger SXT" with the black bullets nearly as valuable as the boxes marked "black talon".

Thanks for any input.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:11:16 AM EDT
its the same stuff. "Black Talons" arent worth anything to me, I wouldnt run 10-15yr old ammo when I can get the same stuff brand new.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:13:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Censored:
However, from a collector perspective is the ammo box marked "LE Ranger SXT" with the black bullets nearly as valuable as the boxes marked "black talon"



I'd say probably not. You can buy them direct from LE supply stores right now. The original "Black Talon" boxes may be worth something...
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:25:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Censored:
I know that there is no difference in the ammo. However, from a collector perspective is the ammo box marked "LE Ranger SXT" with the black bullets nearly as valuable as the boxes marked "black talon".

Thanks for any input.



They're only worth something to either the fat, stupid gun show scam-artists that claim they are awesome defense rounds or to the uninformed amateur gun owner who thinks that 15-year old outdated bullet designs are the "way to go".

To everyone else, they are basically junk.

Hate to break it to you.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:26:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Botch:
its the same stuff. "Black Talons" arent worth anything to me, I wouldnt run 10-15yr old ammo when I can get the same better stuff brand new.



The new Ranger T's are newer versions of the original Black Talons. However, without the word "Ranger" next to it, Winchester SXTs are of a completely unrelated HP design, more importantly one that's seen very little ballistic testing.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:30:05 AM EDT
Black Talon = old and busted
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:35:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mall-Ninja:

Originally Posted By Botch:
its the same stuff. "Black Talons" arent worth anything to me, I wouldnt run 10-15yr old ammo when I can get the same better stuff brand new.



The new Ranger T's are newer versions of the original Black Talons. However, without the word "Ranger" next to it, Winchester SXTs are of a completely unrelated HP design, more importantly one that's seen very little ballistic testing.




Agreed. Also, the SXT ammo is not impressive at all comared to the Ranger line. I would pass those up and stick to the Rangers.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:37:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:


Agreed. Also, the SXT ammo is not impressive at all comared to the Ranger line. I would pass those up and stick to the Rangers.



I'd actually check out Federal HST for defensive ammo [thread hijack]
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:40:14 AM EDT
After expansion, do the SXT also have the little sharp pointy thingies of death ?
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:41:44 AM EDT
As said, Black Talons are only valuable to someone who thinks they are valuable.

Winchester Ranger is the best, newest HP generation, and some of the best stuff around. One thing Win does with the Ranger line than few, if any, other makers, is add flash retardant... ie: After the first one or two rounds fired at night, you still have useable night vision. This is a big deal at night.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:47:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By skid2964:
After expansion, do the SXT also have the little sharp pointy thingies of death ?



SXT does not, Rangers do.


I'd actually check out Federal HST for defensive ammo [thread hijack]


I hope to try some out soon.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:50:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By skid2964:
After expansion, do the SXT also have the little sharp pointy thingies of death ?



nope.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:02:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By go3:
Black Talon = old and busted




Funny the old & busted Black Talons, of which I still have plenty of, most of which were purchased quite some years back costing me $10/box of 20, at the gunshow have never failed to do the job for me.

Whether it's coons, hogs, cows or dillos they have never failed to perform and penetrate, generating some seriously nasty wounds in the process.

I seriously doubt you have ever had the opportunity to use them, in any capacity, otherwise you wouldn't be making such a asinine statement.



I have also used and currently stock the newer Rangers, when I can find them reasonably priced and IMO there ain't whits worth of difference between the two bullets when comparing their expansion, penetration and wounding characteristics.

Mike

Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:12:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 9:40:55 AM EDT by skid2964]

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
Whether it's coons, hogs, cows or dillos they have never failed to perform and penetrate, generating some seriously nasty wounds in the process.



Ditto! I have used my old Black Talons to rip apart a few Dillos ..... they drop larger animals better than they oughtta on a regular basis also....

I have hundreds of 9mm, 45ACP and 10mm factory loaded and also hundreds of Component bullets in 40 cal.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:21:45 AM EDT
I bought a box of original Black Talons in .40 S&W last year for $18 just for shits and giggles. I had never had any of them prior to that, except for shooting some .357 Mag. that belonged to a buddy of mine. I shot about five of the .40s just to see what they would do to a stack of wet phone books and put the others away. The box looked like it had just come from the factory, so whoever had them kept very good care of them.

Yes, all the gun show ammo guys think they are worth $40 per box and they're not. The ammo guy at a gun show this past weekend overheard me telling my buddy about the Black Talons I have and he piped in about how old the ammo was and that he happened to have the fifty-round boxes of Ranger Talons for $40. I didn't say anything but I thought to myself you can keep your $40 Talons because my guns shoot just fine with $12 Gold Dots.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:25:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:26:33 AM EDT
Shoot the ammo - keep the box.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:43:47 AM EDT
So what's the deal, are Ranger T's available to civilians or only to LEO'S?
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:51:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
I seriously doubt you have ever had the opportunity to use them, in any capacity, otherwise you wouldn't be making such a asinine statement.



Correct. I simply have no desire to buy overpriced, outdated ammunition when it is plainly clear to all that there is both better and cheaper choices out there. Don't like that fact, go debate it with Troy.

Link Posted: 1/10/2006 10:01:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 10:08:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 10:08:45 AM EDT by mayday]

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Originally Posted By go3:
Black Talon = old and busted





Whether it's coons, hogs, cows or dillos they have never failed to perform and penetrate, generating some seriously nasty wounds in the process.

I seriously doubt you have ever had the opportunity to use them, in any capacity, otherwise you wouldn't be making such a asinine statement.





Yeah but what makes you think that another bullet is not better. You make it sound as if the reason the "coon" died was the superior or deadlier design of the Tallon; when in reality, probably ANY bullet would have performed as well if not better.

I've read PLENTY of articles outlining the very poor expansion capabilities of the B.T. bullet...heck just go to our own BOX O' TRUTH, there are pictures there outlining the failure of the Tallon.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 10:11:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
I have also used and currently stock the newer Rangers, when I can find them reasonably priced and IMO there ain't whits worth of difference between the two bullets when comparing their expansion, penetration and wounding characteristics.

Mike



Until any kind of barrier is involved. The old BT bullet is notorious for failing to expand after penetrating most common barriers, including clothing.

Also, animals ≠ humans. Comparing a bullet's performance in animals is of little value when looking for a defensive/combat load.

-Troy




Thanks a million Troy!
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 10:20:35 AM EDT
Ranger = chuck noris = musk kick ass...

Link Posted: 1/10/2006 10:27:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ring:
Ranger = chuck noris = musk kick ass...




Link Posted: 1/10/2006 7:07:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 89grand:
So what's the deal, are Ranger T's available to civilians or only to LEO'S?



They're MARKETED to LEOs only. Nothing wrong with citizens buying them or having them. A while back there were rumors that distributors were getting their status yanked by Win-Olin for selling to anyone but LEOs, but so far they're just that: rumors.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 7:34:18 PM EDT
This caps off a wonderful day! I've hoarded 25-30 boxes of 9mm and 10mm Black Talons for no FN reason!!!!
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 7:49:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 5:15:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By 10mmFan:
This caps off a wonderful day! I've hoarded 25-30 boxes of 9mm and 10mm Black Talons for no FN reason!!!!



Well, here's a bit of consolation: the 10mm BTs are some of the best 10mm factory loads ever made, despite their limitations. Neither Winchester nor Federal makes a 4th Gen bullet for 10mm (short of pulling the bullets from loaded .40S&W), so the only 4th Gen bullet design is the Speer Gold Dot, and CCI/Speer doesn't offer a 10mm factory load, so you have to handload.

As a 10mm enthusiest myself, I know how unfortunate this is. But the truth is that full-power 10mm is overkill for defensive use (the extra velocity isn't put to good use), and if you underload it to speeds that it performs within the desired envelope for combat, you've made a .40S&W load in a 10mm case. Like the .41 and .44 Magnums, the 10mm shines in other roles, such as hunting, where most defensive calibers, which have been tuned specifically for combat, don't do as well.

I still like my Glock 20.

-Troy




+1


I use my 10mm Black Talons for hunting in my 14" Contender barrel also ....
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 7:13:20 AM EDT
I have found that the 10mm BTs make an excellent wild pig killer. Thgey bury themselves quie deep in those nasty creatures.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 9:23:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 9:26:08 AM EDT by recoiljunky]
Talons are worth money to me as collectables for their place in history. It's the only line of cartidges that I know of that suffered from overly effective marketing.

Are they more effective as defense rounds against the more modern loads available? No.

Do they have a cool name, cool logo, pretty nickel case, black moly coated bullet, and evil black colored box? Hell yes!

I'd buy some more if it were reasonably priced ($15 a box) just to collect in my safe.

Do they have value? Of course. Some people desire them (for whatever reason) and the manufacturer no longer makes them.

edited to add: Who knows where I can get some 10mm BTs?
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 9:36:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 9:41:42 AM EDT by WolfFox]

Originally Posted By Troy:
You might want to read my post here (pics included).

-Troy



Thanks for the post on the other Thread. It cleared allot of hype up for me. I purchased a box of the Ranger T's in 9’s, 40's and 45's. I do have the original Black Talon’s and the black SXT's. I plane on shooting these ASAP to make sure they feed OK in my guns.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 9:53:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Originally Posted By go3:
Black Talon = old and busted




Funny the old & busted Black Talons, of which I still have plenty of, most of which were purchased quite some years back costing me $10/box of 20, at the gunshow have never failed to do the job for me.

Whether it's coons, hogs, cows or dillos they have never failed to perform and penetrate, generating some seriously nasty wounds in the process.

I seriously doubt you have ever had the opportunity to use them, in any capacity, otherwise you wouldn't be making such a asinine statement.



I have also used and currently stock the newer Rangers, when I can find them reasonably priced and IMO there ain't whits worth of difference between the two bullets when comparing their expansion, penetration and wounding characteristics.

Mike




I have to agree here. I tracked a deer down into the swamp and as the brush is so thick that you can't carry a long gun I took my Colt defender with me. I came upon it and took two quick shots. One missed but the other hit just behind the front shoulder, expanded, took out the heart pretty good and exited after breaking a rib. The deer was about 135 or so and I DID find the expended bullet in the mud about 3 or 4 inches deep. [It went thru some swamp grass first] For an antiquated design it did pretty well, expanded after going thru the winter coat and opened up well. It was not "textbook expansion" as one side had been torn back [petals] and it looked as if it had yawed a bit as the exit wound was more like a cut then a round hole. The deer expired pretty much in about 5 or 6 seconds. It was hopped up on adreneline so I was satisfied with how it worked. I do wish they had loaded it up another 100 FPS or so but follow up is pretty quick. Are there better rounds out there now? Yep, but at the time they were pretty good, ESPECIALLY for a .45 going pretty slow that FED well. At the time the best ammo in a .45 was basically a flying ashtray that caused LOTS of jamming and feeding problems in many guns. Something that lots of people tend to not remember. If you wanted to use a HP design, you sent your 1911 out had it throated and tried out different types of ammo to see what worked. That is not the norm anymore with some of the best rounds, they feed pretty good in MOST guns.

In 9mm I think they were pretty poor, all they had were 147grain slow and shitty. Very few 147s lived up to their hype and it was a dead end street in most cases. Way to much was read into the silvertip failure in Miami, where the round DID perform but hit an obstacle [arm] before hitting the torso. Was poor shooting and tactics that caused most of that mess, and the FBI at the time wanted a scapegoat.

I still have maybe 10-12 boxes I bought at the time for around 8 or 9 bucks a box and still use it tho not for CCW carry. Stuff still works fine, always goes bang and looks new, always stored it properly also.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:38:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 1:40:11 PM EDT by AcidGambit]

Originally Posted By Mall-Ninja:

Originally Posted By 89grand:
So what's the deal, are Ranger T's available to civilians or only to LEO'S?



They're MARKETED to LEOs only. Nothing wrong with citizens buying them or having them. A while back there were rumors that distributors were getting their status yanked by Win-Olin for selling to anyone but LEOs, but so far they're just that: rumors.



Winchest isn't going to do that because the line isn't moving very well with departments. Most all departments buy on a bidding system or get in on another bidding system. ie: they want the cheapest "decent" line of ammo.
Winchester Ranger isn't really cheap, there are not a whole lot of departments that issue it.

If you like the stuff, I would buy as much as you can, it may go away or they may do something to reduce the cost of the ammo (ie: remove the flash retardant, which is what makes it some of the best ammo for defense.)

There is some cat on here who sells it... I don't have the contact info handy, but he is great to deal with... Real stand up guy.

I run a .45acp (with the standard pressure 230gr)... If you have to run a 9mm, get the 127 +P+, the shit is fucking lethal.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:59:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AcidGambit:
As said, Black Talons are only valuable to someone who thinks they are valuable.


yep I sold a box to a collector for 40 bucks found it when i was cleaning the garage.
to each his own.
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