Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 1/9/2006 9:04:52 PM EDT
...What exactly did the British abandon at Dunkirk? I will be damned if i can find a list in any of my reference book sor online anywhere. ANy lists will be appreciated.


Thanks
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 9:10:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 9:18:51 PM EDT by bblake00]
They left pretty much every thing but the clothing on thier backs. The British used anything that could float to get their men home. Some Equipment was taken home but that was just sensitive stuff and what could be carried by hand.


In other words you can say they left every thing behind that they didn't need to stay alive on the trip home.


ETA: Sorry I do not have specific list for you. You might try GOOGLE for some of the retierment organization in Britain. Also if you can find the typical load out for any given unit of the British Army at the time that would give you a little better detail of what was left behind. The numbers you may have to guess at if there arn't any published or archieved.

Imagain if we had to cut and run from the middle east. The only thing that we where able to bring back was the men and the equipment on their backs. Every thing else would be destroyed in place if possible.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 9:14:29 PM EDT
Whatever they could fit on whatever boat they were using. All the heavy stuff was left behind.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 9:15:57 PM EDT
i am aware of the history of the incident. find me a list of what exactly was left behind???
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 9:21:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WindGapAR15:
i am aware of the history of the incident. find me a list of what exactly was left behind???



For the exact stuff you may have to do a bit of search on your own.

But:

Trucks

Tanks

Lorries

Arty
<­BR>Piles of support gear

Pants stained with a bit of poo

Frenchmen still trying to surrender to a retreating army

And maby some pregers too

TRY GOOGLE
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 9:27:55 PM EDT
Does that include those pieces of equipment that were destroyed during the defense?

Just saying, over the whole campaign, there's a large amount of equipment that the British took to the Continent that they didn't bring back. I don't think anyone really had the time or inclination to do an inventory as they were being run off the beaches.

NTM
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 9:29:26 PM EDT
im sure our german buddies took the time to count it. they kept track of everything. i have tried google and yahoo searches extensively. i am hoping one of our military guys on here is a nutball book collector like me and has the info somewhere
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 9:29:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 9:30:57 PM EDT by FMJshooter]

Originally Posted By Manic_Moran:
Does that include those pieces of equipment that were destroyed during the defense?

Just saying, over the whole campaign, there's a large amount of equipment that the British took to the Continent that they didn't bring back. I don't think anyone really had the time or inclination to do an inventory as they were being run off the beaches.

NTM




That was my assumption . Inventory of equipment wasnt a large issue back then they used what they had left . I dont know what use the germans had with there equipment thats gonna be tough .
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 9:35:22 PM EDT
I know they left nearly all their small arms behind.

That's principally why the No1mkV Enfield is so rare today - they were nearly all sent to Europe, and left on the beaches of Dunkirk.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 9:35:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Manic_Moran:
Does that include those pieces of equipment that were destroyed during the defense?

Just saying, over the whole campaign, there's a large amount of equipment that the British took to the Continent that they didn't bring back. I don't think anyone really had the time or inclination to do an inventory as they were being run off the beaches.

NTM



I'm not sure if this was directed at me but...

I'm betting there are numbers in some basement across the pond someplace. From my readings and the classes I took, every thing that had a non-secret tag on it was left behind if it was secret in any way and they could not take it they destroyed it inplace to prevent it from being used by the Germans. Most if not all of the equipment that was left behind was used by the Germans to reinforce the position on other fronts or re-enginiered for their use later on in the war.

If I recall much later in the warm when we where involved the Germans had a captured P-51 that was repainted and used by the Luftuaffa in or around the German's Easter Front.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 9:38:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WindGapAR15:
im sure our german buddies took the time to count it. they kept track of everything. i have tried google and yahoo searches extensively. i am hoping one of our military guys on here is a nutball book collector like me and has the info somewhere



It's a long shot but give the Library of Congress a call. they might have some obscure text with the info you are looking for.

I'm sure the Germans catologed every thing they got their hands on. It's written down someplace but I do not think the .net will be the place to find it. But then you might.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:43:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 8:44:41 AM EDT by Manic_Moran]

Originally Posted By bblake00:
If I recall much later in the warm when we where involved the Germans had a captured P-51 that was repainted and used by the Luftuaffa in or around the German's Easter Front.



The Luftwaffe used quite a few captured aircraft. It was called "Rosraius' Flying Circus" (Wanderzirkus Rosarius) and was primarily used for training. Dis-similar air combat, target ID, and so on. It was part of "Verschuchsverband", the Luftwaffe's Trials and Development unit. They flew P-51s, P-38s, P-47s, Spitfires, Mosquitos, a Typhoon and a B-17 amongst others.

Whilst a 'trojan horse' op would seem possible, I don't know of any such occasions that they did it with openly with aircraft. (Some B-17s in KG-200 were used to deliver agents behind enemy lines)

NTM
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:19:10 AM EDT
During the retreat to Dunkirk the British High Command expected about 45,000 men to be available for evacuaction. Instead, a total of, 328,000 allied troops eventually reached England.

This was thanks in part to the efforts of the Royal Navy but it was also due to dogged rearguard actions at Boulogne, Calais and elsewhere, which bought the BEF valuable time. The BEF also benefited from Hitler’s order on 24 May that his panzers should halt at a time when the German 1st Panzer Division was only fifteen miles from Dunkirk.

Although Htler's order to halt the Panzers is still somewhat shrouded in mystery, apparently, the reasons for it were that the low-lying ground around Dunkirk was unsuitable for tanks and that the panzer divisions needed to be preserved for the coming battle in the south. Goering also convinced Hitler that his eagles alone could destroy the BEF.

Finally, the panzer divisions had suffered substantial losses in men and equipment and their lines of communications were stretched to the limit. So...Hitler dithered and waited for the Luftwaffe to finish off the BEF.

On 27 May the German attack resumed, but by that point the BEF had been able to regroup and the perimeter defences around Dunkirk had been strengthened.

The core of the BEF was saved at Dunkirk but the BEF suffered 68,000 casualties and virtually all of its equipment including 64,000 vehicles, 20,000 motorcycles and 2,500 guns

The 1st Armoured and 51st Highland Divisions stayed behind in France as the rear guard, attempting to prop up a beaten France...but it was all for nothing. The 51st was trapped at St Valery-en-Caux and surrendered on 12 June.

A little known fact is that another 144,000 allied troops were eventually brought out through Cherbourg and Brest before the total collapse of the Phrench weenies.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:55:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Manic_Moran:

Originally Posted By bblake00:
If I recall much later in the warm when we where involved the Germans had a captured P-51 that was repainted and used by the Luftuaffa in or around the German's Easter Front.



The Luftwaffe used quite a few captured aircraft. It was called "Rosraius' Flying Circus" (Wanderzirkus Rosarius) and was primarily used for training. Dis-similar air combat, target ID, and so on. It was part of "Verschuchsverband", the Luftwaffe's Trials and Development unit. They flew P-51s, P-38s, P-47s, Spitfires, Mosquitos, a Typhoon and a B-17 amongst others.

Whilst a 'trojan horse' op would seem possible, I don't know of any such occasions that they did it with openly with aircraft. (Some B-17s in KG-200 were used to deliver agents behind enemy lines)

NTM



I read somewhere that the Germans would infiltrate captured B-17s into bomber formations and radio contact reports to their fighters as the formation moved across Europe. I don't know how accurate that source was.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 12:44:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Big_Louie:

Originally Posted By Manic_Moran:

Originally Posted By bblake00:
If I recall much later in the warm when we where involved the Germans had a captured P-51 that was repainted and used by the Luftuaffa in or around the German's Easter Front.



The Luftwaffe used quite a few captured aircraft. It was called "Rosraius' Flying Circus" (Wanderzirkus Rosarius) and was primarily used for training. Dis-similar air combat, target ID, and so on. It was part of "Verschuchsverband", the Luftwaffe's Trials and Development unit. They flew P-51s, P-38s, P-47s, Spitfires, Mosquitos, a Typhoon and a B-17 amongst others.

Whilst a 'trojan horse' op would seem possible, I don't know of any such occasions that they did it with openly with aircraft. (Some B-17s in KG-200 were used to deliver agents behind enemy lines)

NTM



The logistics alone of that kind of maneuver make it something that if it did happen, probably wasn't very frequent or very successful.

I read somewhere that the Germans would infiltrate captured B-17s into bomber formations and radio contact reports to their fighters as the formation moved across Europe. I don't know how accurate that source was.

Link Posted: 1/10/2006 1:17:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Big_Louie:

Originally Posted By Manic_Moran:

Originally Posted By bblake00:
If I recall much later in the warm when we where involved the Germans had a captured P-51 that was repainted and used by the Luftuaffa in or around the German's Easter Front.



The Luftwaffe used quite a few captured aircraft. It was called "Rosraius' Flying Circus" (Wanderzirkus Rosarius) and was primarily used for training. Dis-similar air combat, target ID, and so on. It was part of "Verschuchsverband", the Luftwaffe's Trials and Development unit. They flew P-51s, P-38s, P-47s, Spitfires, Mosquitos, a Typhoon and a B-17 amongst others.

Whilst a 'trojan horse' op would seem possible, I don't know of any such occasions that they did it with openly with aircraft. (Some B-17s in KG-200 were used to deliver agents behind enemy lines)

NTM




I read somewhere that the Germans would infiltrate captured B-17s into bomber formations and radio contact reports to their fighters as the formation moved across Europe. I don't know how accurate that source was.


There have been several accounts of the Germans using captured 17s and 24s to trail a formation and give constant heading and altitude info to flak units and ground intercept stations. They kept the US markings and were often found out by the GIs because they had the wrong squadron markings for the formation that was flying.
As far as GBR equipment left at Dunkirk, you can pretty much assume just about anything not man-portable. Larger items were DIP or otherwise disable if possible. A detailed list is probably asking a little much.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 1:23:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 2:48:49 PM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 1:31:04 PM EDT
The Wermacht liked to use the captured Bren Carriers and the STEN's.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 1:33:07 PM EDT
20,000 British motorcycles . . . lost . . .
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 1:43:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 1:44:23 PM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 1:50:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 1:54:38 PM EDT by dewoitine]

Originally Posted By LWilde:
A little known fact is that another 144,000 allied troops were eventually brought out through Cherbourg and Brest before the total collapse of the Phrench weenies.



yeah the phrench weenies who has only sacrified their first army for allowing this evacuation...

Although King Leopold III surended the Belgian Army, the French First Army delayed the Germans
The French Command authorized one of three French corps to participate in the withdrawal, but the other two corps of 6 divisions, closely engaged near Lille, fought on until they were surrounded.
Five French Divisions set up a roadblock at Lille, where they held out for four days against seven German Panzer division

(from another forum by david lehmann)
The German operations against the allied pocket are not easy. The German troops are opposed to the best allied troops : the 1st French Army, the French cavalry corps and the BEF. The successful evacuation of the BEF would probably not have been possible without the stiff French resistance around Lille, which blocked 7 German divisions. From 28th May to 1st June, about 40,000 French troops led by general Molinié (also commander of the 25e DIM) held about 800 German tanks and 110,000 soldiers from the 4.PzD, 5.PzD, 7.PzD, 7.ID, 217.ID, 253.ID and 267.ID. The French troops are composed of various more or less complete units. These French troops fought encircled until all their ammunition was used and led several counter-attacks, the commander of 253.ID, general Kühne, was even captured. The Germans let the defenders parade in the streets after the battle granted them the honors of war to salute their fierce resistance. Even Churchill in his memories recognized the role of the troops in Lille.



Link Posted: 1/10/2006 2:00:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 2:11:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 2:23:02 PM EDT by JohnParis]
In before me. Good job Dewoitine!

If someone can explain me why the British retreating soldiers were heroes, and why the French fighting to protect them were surrender monkeys...

E.T.A : no more response from me to French bashing tonight, I’m going to bed. But I will come back!

Andy, if one day you’re coming in Paris, drop me a mail. I love your sense of humour !

Link Posted: 1/10/2006 2:25:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 2:53:05 PM EDT by dewoitine]

Originally Posted By JohnParis:
In before me. Good job Dewoitine!

Andy, if one day you’re coming in Paris, drop me a mail. I love your sense of humour !






Merci ,

Back to the anglois, my exams will be finished in 1 week i will post some thread concerning the french army during WWII after that.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 2:40:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 2:46:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 4:21:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dewoitine:

Originally Posted By LWilde:
A little known fact is that another 144,000 allied troops were eventually brought out through Cherbourg and Brest before the total collapse of the Phrench weenies.



yeah the phrench weenies who has only sacrified their first army for allowing this evacuation...

Although King Leopold III surended the Belgian Army, the French First Army delayed the Germans
The French Command authorized one of three French corps to participate in the withdrawal, but the other two corps of 6 divisions, closely engaged near Lille, fought on until they were surrounded.
Five French Divisions set up a roadblock at Lille, where they held out for four days against seven German Panzer division

(from another forum by david lehmann)
The German operations against the allied pocket are not easy. The German troops are opposed to the best allied troops : the 1st French Army, the French cavalry corps and the BEF. The successful evacuation of the BEF would probably not have been possible without the stiff French resistance around Lille, which blocked 7 German divisions. From 28th May to 1st June, about 40,000 French troops led by general Molinié (also commander of the 25e DIM) held about 800 German tanks and 110,000 soldiers from the 4.PzD, 5.PzD, 7.PzD, 7.ID, 217.ID, 253.ID and 267.ID. The French troops are composed of various more or less complete units. These French troops fought encircled until all their ammunition was used and led several counter-attacks, the commander of 253.ID, general Kühne, was even captured. The Germans let the defenders parade in the streets after the battle granted them the honors of war to salute their fierce resistance. Even Churchill in his memories recognized the role of the troops in Lille.






For the most part, the French troops fought well. As has been stated, the Fall of France was due more to many years of corrupt French corrupt, a completge lack of understanding of modern, maneuver, combined arms warfare on the part of the French general staff, a lack of accurate understanding of Hitler's true intentions and the advanced capabilities of the Werhmacht WRT the armed forces of the other European states...AND a general lack of French preparedness.

The French leaders, like many virtually all of the rest of Europe, were largely pacifists and totally unprepared for someone like Hitler.

With ALL due respect to my friends in the UK, you had, as we do here in America, a wonderful advantage to protect you: an ocean. I suspect that even Britain would have had a very difficult time stopping Hitler's tanks had the Nazis not been stopped by the Channel.

In this discussion we must also remember that the Fall of France was not due to the British, nor any other state. It was do to the skill of the Germans and the [overall] ineptness of the French armed forces. Again, that is not to say that the average French grunt, sailor or airman was a coward or stupid. Far from it. They fought hard for as long as possible. No, the fault lies with the French leadership, both civilian and military.

Remember this finally...six weeks...that is all it took for that Little Corporal to be strutting outside the railway car at Compagne.

Oh...and lastly, for our Phrench amis: One thing we here in America still can't grasp is how relatively easily your nation fell to the Germans. Here in the United States, a huge part of our population is armed. An invading army would have to conquer virtually the entire country to subjigate us...and even then we wouldn't surrender. Admiral Yamamoto even stated as such when he was musing about attacking us in 1941. He recognized how much we prize our freedoms,,,even above life itself. He recognized a salient truth about us: We would NEVER live under a tyrant.

So...that is one big reason we often exhibit disdain for your country and your abilities to conduct warfare.
Top Top