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Posted: 1/8/2006 8:45:07 PM EDT
Would society as a whole be better and more successful if it were structured and run like the military?

Would life in such a society be better and more fulfilling than it is now?

Link Posted: 1/8/2006 8:45:47 PM EDT
NO

that would be COMMUNISM
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 8:51:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
NO

that would be COMMUNISM



So, if you view the US Military as its own society, which many do, it would be correct to refer to it as a Communist society and all its members are Communists?

Link Posted: 1/8/2006 8:52:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 8:57:01 PM EDT by BlammO]
Once in a while, a real visionary comes along and has everything figured out.












[dupe edited out]
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 8:59:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 8:59:52 PM EDT by Zarathustra1]

Originally Posted By BlammO:
Once in a while, a real visionary comes along and has everything figured out.



Perhaps you prefer the emasculated state the US is in currently?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:01:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zarathustra1:

Originally Posted By BlammO:
Once in a while, a real visionary comes along and has everything figured out.



Perhaps you prefer the emasculated state the US is in currently?



over totalitarianism, yes
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:04:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 9:05:12 PM EDT by Zarathustra1]

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

over totalitarianism, yes



The Military equals totalitarianism?

You prefer having half the country vote against you?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:07:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zarathustra1:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

over totalitarianism, yes



The Military equals totalitarianism?

You prefer having half the country vote against you?



I prefer to let people vote as part of a federal republic yes.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:07:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zarathustra1:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

over totalitarianism, yes



The Military equals totalitarianism?

You prefer having half the country vote against you?



Were you the guy that said we shouldn't have coke and pepsi because it's inefficient?

What's sad is that I just reviewed a book by a former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine that said the same thing: Companies shouldn't make drugs that do the same thing because it's redundant and greedy.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:08:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 9:09:28 PM EDT by LonePathfinder]
Military Forces subject to UCMJ and under the command of Civilian Government

*Citizens who have the right to vote in ALL elections, bear arms (ANY arms short of WMD) but must have a higher degree and/or prior gov/mil service to be a Citizen, or if none of those criteria are met, can take a test to become a citizen.

*Civilians who do have the right to vote in LOCAL elections, can bear arms but no CCW w/o permit or "heavy" weapons (nothing crew served and beyond) without permit.

*Everyone else (no legal status as civi or citizen) can't vote, can only own certain arms, not CCW at all no heavy weapons, but pay taxes

Gov Revenue from sales taxes primarily.

Federal Positions are elected from direct elections. No electoral college.

You can't have children unless you can prove you can support them.

Welfare consists of losing citizenship, and military rations and water at a government housing project. You are not aloud to have children while on welfare.

Broadly same laws/right as US.

Economy is capitalistic with heavy bias against organized labor
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:08:42 PM EDT
Society as a whole has lots of structures.

Those that need a structure can put their feet on a path to find one.

Those that don't, can put their feet elsewhere.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:08:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By Zarathustra1:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

over totalitarianism, yes



The Military equals totalitarianism?

You prefer having half the country vote against you?



I prefer to let people vote as part of a federal republic yes.



Is the Military more effective overall than society? Would the Military function of every member were polled before a decision were made?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:11:19 PM EDT
seriously, most civillians would go apeshit if we went with a military rule system. it wont work for your average joe, most totalitarian regimes have tried it, all have failed. it doesnt work outside of the military.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:15:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 9:16:32 PM EDT by Zarathustra1]

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
seriously, most civillians would go apeshit if we went with a military rule system. it wont work for your average joe, most totalitarian regimes have tried it, all have failed. it doesnt work outside of the military.



So, in time you would have a society composed of people who fit in a Military setting. A society composed almost entirely of people who have a real sense of honor and sacrifice. Would that be better than it is now was my question. I am asking in the long run, not the day after it was implemented.

100 years down the road, if it were to last that long. Hypothetical question. I don't care what average Joe thinks of it. It is hypothetically forced on him and he can bend or break. Eventually almost all of society would fit in the new mold.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:17:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zarathustra1:

Originally Posted By BlammO:
Once in a while, a real visionary comes along and has everything figured out.



Perhaps you prefer the emasculated state the US is in currently?



What, exactly, are you advocating?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:17:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zarathustra1:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
seriously, most civillians would go apeshit if we went with a military rule system. it wont work for your average joe, most totalitarian regimes have tried it, all have failed. it doesnt work outside of the military.



So, in time you would have a society composed of people who fit in a Military setting. A society composed almost entirely of people who have a real sense of honor and sacrifice. Would that be better than it is now was my question. I am asking in the long run, not the day after it was implemented.

100 years down the road, if it were to last that long. Hypothetical question... I don't care what average Joe thinks of it. It is hypothetically forced on him and he can bend or break. Eventually almost all of society would fit in the new mold.



Would this be the US military or say some Mycountryisapieceofshitistan Military? Worlds of difference?

Many subcultures exsist in any one military. Which one is it?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:18:24 PM EDT
Dude, are you serious?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:19:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:

Originally Posted By Zarathustra1:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
seriously, most civillians would go apeshit if we went with a military rule system. it wont work for your average joe, most totalitarian regimes have tried it, all have failed. it doesnt work outside of the military.



So, in time you would have a society composed of people who fit in a Military setting. A society composed almost entirely of people who have a real sense of honor and sacrifice. Would that be better than it is now was my question. I am asking in the long run, not the day after it was implemented.

100 years down the road, if it were to last that long. Hypothetical question... I don't care what average Joe thinks of it. It is hypothetically forced on him and he can bend or break. Eventually almost all of society would fit in the new mold.



Would this be the US military or say some Mycountryisapieceofshitistan Military? Worlds of difference?

Many subcultures exsist in any one military. Which one is it?



A first-world Military. The US Military is a fine example. Not a Banana Republic Army...
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:21:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BlammO:

Originally Posted By Zarathustra1:

Originally Posted By BlammO:
Once in a while, a real visionary comes along and has everything figured out.



Perhaps you prefer the emasculated state the US is in currently?



What, exactly, are you advocating?



You would not want to live in a militaristic society, so I assume you prefer a society where martial values are not the norm...
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:22:38 PM EDT

Ideal society = me in charge + everyone else shut the hell up


Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:22:51 PM EDT
I believe that a more structured society based on the rule of an aristocracy would be a positive change.

Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:23:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Big_Louie:
Dude, are you serious?



Yes Dude, I am. I think I know where your car is too...
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:26:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 9:27:35 PM EDT by Zarathustra1]
I'm not saying I think it would be better. I don't know. Just typing out loud.

I am not talking about Totalitarianism or Communism though, regardless of people's inability to envision a militarily structured society in any other terms..
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:28:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 9:28:53 PM EDT by Zarathustra1]

Originally Posted By cjk1:
I believe that a more structured society based on the rule of an aristocracy would be a positive change.




I agree with you. The exact structure of such a government is a bit difficult to flesh out though.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:30:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Ideal society = me in charge + everyone else shut the hell up





Go be a hermit in the mountains and you can have all that...
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:34:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 9:37:03 PM EDT by mmx1]

Originally Posted By Zarathustra1:
I'm not saying I think it would be better. I don't know. Just typing out loud.

I am not talking about Totalitarianism or Communism though, regardless of people's inability to envision a militarily structured society in any other terms..



What other terms are there?

Primary elements of a military society:
Chain of Command - institutes a caste system where you have no choice but to obey the commands of superiors.

Needs of the whole (the Corps, the Army, the Country) outweigh the needs of the one.

Gee, sounds like a totalitarian communist state to me.

Or do you have the notion that spiffy uniforms and close order drill is a good thing for society?

Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:37:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zarathustra1:
Would society as a whole be better and more successful if it were structured and run like the military?

Would life in such a society be better and more fulfilling than it is now?




Grand social engineering on the scale you speak of is a fundamentally flawed concept. In order to creat such massive changes in society, the government must necessarily assume greater and greater power. This power, however, eventually attracts the worst sort of people, and the system collapses. The perfect is clearly the enemy of the good in this regard, and the best one can hope for is divided power and just rulers.

The fact is that moral decay is an inevitable stage in the development of all great societies, and is due precisely to our limited natures. Eventually, the success of one generation leads to luxury. People growing up in luxury don't learn all of the hard-fought lessons that made the prior generations successful, no matter how good the educational system is. Fact is, most people learn things by hard knocks, and luxury shields people from hard knocks. This luxury then necessarily leads into moral decay. Or as the British say, sandals to sandals in three generations.

It happened to ther Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Turks, Spanish, French, Dutch and English, and it will happen to us as well. No system of government or social order is immune to the cycle of rise and decay. The goal, of course, is to delay the decay as long as possible. The Roman state lasted for roughly two thousand years in one form or another. Hopefully we can outdo them.

Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:49:57 PM EDT
How about you leave me the fuck alone and I'll do the same to you.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:51:59 PM EDT
No. Sparta pretty much disproved that as a way to run a free society.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:59:04 PM EDT
The world ought to have more big-tittied women and that all like me.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 5:16:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mmx1:

Needs of the whole (the Corps, the Army, the Country) outweigh the needs of the one.




Well, are you saying that you feel your personal needs are more important than the needs of the US as a whole?

I suppose I see the fierce need for freedom of self gratification as something less than good...
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