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Posted: 1/8/2006 12:26:25 PM EDT
from:www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/01/08/INGODGHDKH1.DTL

The torturer's dilemma: the math on fire with fire
Jonathan David Farley

You burst into the room. Sitting on a chair, blindfolded, his hands tied behind his back, is your prisoner. The room is dark, except for a lonely naked bulb hanging from the ceiling. He is sweating. He is afraid.

"Tell me where it is!" you scream. "Now!" You know there is little time left. Somewhere in your city, a time bomb is ticking. Whether it spits serin into the air, uranium into the water or atomic fire into the heavens, you do not know.

He does. But he is not talking. Involuntarily, you raise your hand as if to strike. What you are about to do violates the law and your conscience. And yet. ...


In peacetime, torture ranks next to murder as a primal sin. But during war, the debate begins over whether this evil can ever be justified to combat the seemingly greater evil of the enemy. Harvard law Professor Alan Dershowitz has said torture should be legalized.

In early October, the U.S. Senate voted 90-9 to ban it. Although Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and President Bush have both recently asserted that "We do not torture," five U.S. Army Rangers were charged in November for punching and kicking detainees in Iraq, secret U.S. prisons have caused anxiety in Europe, and Vice President Dick Cheney has battled to win the CIA an exemption from the torture ban. As late as December, the U.S. House of Representatives stood poised to defeat the White House.

Few of us will ever be asked to torture. But, indirectly, all of us have to make a choice: to support, as citizens, those politicians who back torture, or those who seek its prohibition.

The decision of an individual to support, or reject, torture seems at first to be a purely moral question. But what would be the long-term consequences to society if we were to make this radical break with the past?

One cannot do experiments with societies, or predict the future, but, it turns out, one can attempt to address this issue using the cold, hard tools of mathematics and logic. This story begins in 1963.

The United States and the Soviet Union are on the perpetual brink of war, balanced like two sides of an equation. On the American side are "game theorists" like Thomas Schelling, recently awarded the Nobel Prize for his work on the strategy of conflict. On the Soviet side, there is the solitary mathematical psychologist Vladimir Lefebvre.

Just as mathematics could be used to describe logical reasoning, Lefebvre saw that mathematics could be used to describe ethical reasoning. If something was good -- for example, "church," "democracy," "prosperity," "kindness" -- it had value "1."

If something was evil -- "earthquake," "famine," "military defeat," "murder" -- it had value "0." But rarely were ethical situations so simple. For instance, "killing" is bad (0) but protecting one's country is good (1) -- so is war 1 or 0?

Lefebvre saw that, at the crudest level, there were essentially two types of ethical systems. Those that held that employing evil means to attain just ends was good, and those that saw that employing evil means to attain good ends was wrong.

There were also, crudely put, two types of relations between individuals: those entailing compromise (or cooperation) and those entailing confrontation.

Of course, evil people rarely see themselves as evil. So Lefebvre had to incorporate in his model of human nature the capacity of human beings to judge -- correctly or incorrectly -- the goodness or evil of their own acts, and to reflect upon their own judgments, and others'. "Reflexive Theory" was born.

It quickly became a paradigm within the Soviet defense establishment, with the publication of books such as "Mathematics and Armed Conflict." Nothing like it was known in the West.

With very simple assumptions -- for instance, that an individual who correctly sees his actions to be good when they are good, and evil if they are evil, is more highly regarded by society than an individual who incorrectly sees himself -- Lefebvre showed that in a society that accepted the compromise of good with evil, individuals would more often seek the path of confrontation with each other.

Lefebvre's insights were called upon by the State Department during negotiations with Mikhail Gorbachev in Reykjavik, Iceland. (And perhaps Lefebvre's model could be re-enlisted to help U.S. officials understand and negotiate with Arab and Muslim heads of state, who must also negotiate with their people.)

In support of Lefebvre's revolutionary new theory, a survey of Soviet émigrés and Americans was conducted in the 1970s. They were asked questions like, "Should a doctor conceal from a patient that he has cancer in order to diminish his suffering?" Overwhelmingly, the Americans would say no, and overwhelmingly, the Soviets yes. The Soviets accepted the compromise of good with evil; the Americans rejected it.

What does this mean? If Americans begin to accept the use of torture, American society might turn into a society of individuals in conflict.

Not uniformly, thanks to something called free will, but generally, with harmful consequences for society: Imagine two roads, with a stream of cars moving along each one. Each driver wants to reach his destination as quickly as possible; on occasion, drivers will impede each other.

On the first road, drivers rise in their own, and in other drivers', estimation if they yield. Drivers on the second road lose face when they yield. It is clear that traffic will move faster on the first road than on the second.

It can be argued that repressive states like Saudi Arabia, which bred most of the Sept. 11 hijackers, are on the second road. If the United States moved to accept torture, it could veer toward the second road, too -- the road of the Soviet Union.

And we know where that road ends. The Soviet Union no longer exists.

--------------------------------------------------------

I don't entirely agree with the Journalist's conclusions. As I think that there are limited cases where Torture is entirely justifiable.

And that adherence to International Rules of War should be based upon Quid Pro Quo.


Link Posted: 1/8/2006 12:30:31 PM EDT
Wow. I remember seeing this a few months back and the shitstorm it started.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 12:31:52 PM EDT
Blowtorches and ball cutters work wonders.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 12:33:49 PM EDT
-1 for torture.

My worst fear.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 12:37:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
-1 for torture.

My worst fear.



Amen, those caught doing so should be shot.

Be they islamofascist or not.

Link Posted: 1/8/2006 12:44:19 PM EDT
if you have to feed a terrorist feet first into a meat grinder to save some lives I'm all for it.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 12:50:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
-1 for torture.

My worst fear.



That's why it works.

It's his, too.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 12:58:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mattimeo:

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
-1 for torture.

My worst fear.



That's why it works.

It's his, too.



I personally feel its wrong. You may think its right.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:00:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:

Originally Posted By mattimeo:

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
-1 for torture.

My worst fear.



That's why it works.

It's his, too.



I personally feel its wrong. You may think its right.



Didn't say that. Just said that's why it works.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:07:15 PM EDT
I don't know how well it works. But I bet there's other ways to get info that we need. And even the info we get from torture (if God forbid we do it), how often is it useful?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:09:06 PM EDT
I am all for it. The end justifies the means. Fuck terrorists and all who support them.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:14:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
I don't know how well it works. But I bet there's other ways to get info that we need. And even the info we get from torture (if God forbid we do it), how often is it useful?



Often enough to justify continuing to do it. No God forbid needed. We torture people, or people are tortured by others under our direction. Anyone who truly believes different is living in candyland, unfortunately.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:20:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By effinNewGuy:
I am all for it. The end justifies the means. Fuck terrorists and all who support them.



Watch what you ask for, We as gun owners are not far from making the terrorist list. not far at all IMHO
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:22:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 1:23:25 PM EDT by SJSAMPLE]
15 years ago a carjacker/crackhead took a car with two toddlers inside.
He was apprehended an hour later and the children were missing.
The police questioned him for hours and he wasn't talking.

Meanwhile, the midway sun put the temps in the 90s.
The children were left in the brush on the side of the highway and died from the heat.

The detective on the case wrote a lengthy defense of torture and how he would have used it.
I remember the story, but cannot find the article at present.

Torture is bad if you're willing to commit it and not willing to put up with it.
If we torture others, we should be ready for the torture of our own citizens and soldiers.
If we can deal with that, then I'd give torture a GO. If not, then let's not be hypocrites.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:22:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

Originally Posted By effinNewGuy:
I am all for it. The end justifies the means. Fuck terrorists and all who support them.



Watch what you ask for, We as gun owners are not far from making the terrorist list. not far at all IMHO



Indeed so.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:23:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
-1 for torture.

My worst fear.



Amen, those caught doing so should be shot.

Be they islamofascist or not.




Some men have kidnapped your daughter or son.

You manage to catch one of them. He won't tell you where your kid is.

Do you wait for him to have his day in court several months from now, when your child in all likelyhood would be dead. or do you break out the pliers and the blowtorch?

Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:25:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
-1 for torture.

My worst fear.



Amen, those caught doing so should be shot.

Be they islamofascist or not.




Some men have kidnapped your daughter or son.

You manage to catch one of them. He won't tell you where your kid is.

Do you wait for him to have his day in court several months from now, when your child in all likelyhood would be dead. or do you break out the pliers and the blowtorch?




The child may already be dead.

And he may just lie to make you stop.

He may die from his torment before he tells you anything.

There are two sides to any coin.

This is a moral dilemma that comes with a deep, personal decision to be made.

Could you relive his screams every night?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:31:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mattimeo:

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
-1 for torture.

My worst fear.



Amen, those caught doing so should be shot.

Be they islamofascist or not.




Some men have kidnapped your daughter or son.

You manage to catch one of them. He won't tell you where your kid is.

Do you wait for him to have his day in court several months from now, when your child in all likelyhood would be dead. or do you break out the pliers and the blowtorch?




The child may already be dead.

And he may just lie to make you stop.

He may die from his torment before he tells you anything.

There are two sides to any coin.

This is a moral dilemma that comes with a deep, personal decision to be made.

Could you relive his screams every night?



Why would I want to "relive his screams every night"? Or did you mean to say "could I live with hearing his screams every night?" ?

Could I? Damn freaking straight. Without a seconds hesistation. If i had a kid who was kidnapped by some scum of the earth, I COULDN'T sleep at night knowing I didn't do all I could to save them.

The question is, could you?

There are things in life I regret and sometimes ponder. But whether I hurt some worthless piece of shit to save a child would NEVER be one of them.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:35:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
-1 for torture.

My worst fear.



Amen, those caught doing so should be shot.

Be they islamofascist or not.




Some men have kidnapped your daughter or son.

You manage to catch one of them. He won't tell you where your kid is.

Do you wait for him to have his day in court several months from now, when your child in all likelyhood would be dead. or do you break out the pliers and the blowtorch?




I would not make a rash jump to torture no more than I did when my cousin was shot and killed. {unlikly I would happen to have them in my possesion either }
justice may be slow, but goddamn it that's what this country is all about. Do we turn into what we are fighting to "win"? WTF do we win with that?

Nothing, but you lose EVERYTHING.



Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:38:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 1:40:22 PM EDT by unkempt1]

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By mattimeo:

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
-1 for torture.

My worst fear.



Amen, those caught doing so should be shot.

Be they islamofascist or not.




Some men have kidnapped your daughter or son.

You manage to catch one of them. He won't tell you where your kid is.

Do you wait for him to have his day in court several months from now, when your child in all likelyhood would be dead. or do you break out the pliers and the blowtorch?




The child may already be dead.

And he may just lie to make you stop.

He may die from his torment before he tells you anything.

There are two sides to any coin.

This is a moral dilemma that comes with a deep, personal decision to be made.

Could you relive his screams every night?



Why would I want to "relive his screams every night"? Or did you mean to say "could I live with hearing his screams every night?" ?

Could I? Damn freaking straight. Without a seconds hesistation. If i had a kid who was kidnapped by some scum of the earth, I COULDN'T sleep at night knowing I didn't do all I could to save them.

The question is, could you?

There are things in life I regret and sometimes ponder. But whether I hurt some worthless piece of shit to save a child would NEVER be one of them.



I hope you are absolutly certain of whom you "get" Frankly you remind me of a guy from the Army of God I talked to one time.Scary.............
I got nothing else I can say. you're too far gone buddy.

Good luck.

<­BR>
Runs away from my mail slot!!!! [peek]

yikes
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:39:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mattimeo:

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
-1 for torture.

My worst fear.



Amen, those caught doing so should be shot.

Be they islamofascist or not.




Some men have kidnapped your daughter or son.

You manage to catch one of them. He won't tell you where your kid is.

Do you wait for him to have his day in court several months from now, when your child in all likelyhood would be dead. or do you break out the pliers and the blowtorch?




The child may already be dead.

And he may just lie to make you stop.

He may die from his torment before he tells you anything.

There are two sides to any coin.

This is a moral dilemma that comes with a deep, personal decision to be made.

Could you relive his screams every night?



Could you live with it if your kid died while the guy who knew where he was and how to save him was right in front of you, but you didn't do anything? Would you say to yourself "Well, my innocent little son is dead, but at least I didn't harm a hair on the head of the kidnapper who took him"?

We're at war with people who would see every last one of us dead. From what I've heard, our guys have done a damm good job of getting the information they need without using anything that I would consider real torture.

"If hooking jumper cables up to a terrorist's nuts saves the life of one American soldier, I have only one thing to say: Red is positive, black is negative" (I don't remember who said that)
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:41:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 1:42:32 PM EDT by home_with_kids]
The child may already be dead.

And he may just lie to make you stop.

He may die from his torment before he tells you anything.

There are two sides to any coin.

This is a moral dilemma that comes with a deep, personal decision to be made.

Could you relive his screams every night?



I know nothing about you, but I know enough to state that you don't have kids (or at least shoudn't have kids). There is only ONE side to this coin, and that is the welfare of the kid. The person who threatened my kids can expect only the worst treatment until I am sure that either my kids are safe, or beyond help (torture for revenge has no appeal to me, but I understand those who might think different).

EDIT: I'd still kill the bastard that killed my kids, but not torture him.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:41:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By mattimeo:

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
-1 for torture.

My worst fear.



Amen, those caught doing so should be shot.

Be they islamofascist or not.




Some men have kidnapped your daughter or son.

You manage to catch one of them. He won't tell you where your kid is.

Do you wait for him to have his day in court several months from now, when your child in all likelyhood would be dead. or do you break out the pliers and the blowtorch?




The child may already be dead.

And he may just lie to make you stop.

He may die from his torment before he tells you anything.

There are two sides to any coin.

This is a moral dilemma that comes with a deep, personal decision to be made.

Could you relive his screams every night?



Why would I want to "relive his screams every night"? Or did you mean to say "could I live with hearing his screams every night?" ?

Could I? Damn freaking straight. Without a seconds hesistation. If i had a kid who was kidnapped by some scum of the earth, I COULDN'T sleep at night knowing I didn't do all I could to save them.

The question is, could you?

There are things in life I regret and sometimes ponder. But whether I hurt some worthless piece of shit to save a child would NEVER be one of them.



Yes, I could.

I have within me the capacity to do terrible things.

Would I, however?

Likely not. Evil begets evil. I am no better than he is, should I take matters into my own hands and torture him.

I could live with the memories of his pain. I could live with the depravity and humiliation I would subject him to.

I could not subject my child, however, to living in the presence of a monster.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:41:51 PM EDT
Launch gerbils in model rockets check

Ability to bbq somebody's nuts check

Ability to tell libtards check

Git-R-done
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:43:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mace:

Originally Posted By mattimeo:

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
-1 for torture.

My worst fear.



Amen, those caught doing so should be shot.

Be they islamofascist or not.




Some men have kidnapped your daughter or son.

You manage to catch one of them. He won't tell you where your kid is.

Do you wait for him to have his day in court several months from now, when your child in all likelyhood would be dead. or do you break out the pliers and the blowtorch?




The child may already be dead.

And he may just lie to make you stop.

He may die from his torment before he tells you anything.

There are two sides to any coin.

This is a moral dilemma that comes with a deep, personal decision to be made.

Could you relive his screams every night?



Could you live with it if your kid died while the guy who knew where he was and how to save him was right in front of you, but you didn't do anything? Would you say to yourself "Well, my innocent little son is dead, but at least I didn't harm a hair on the head of the kidnapper who took him"?

We're at war with people who would see every last one of us dead. From what I've heard, our guys have done a damm good job of getting the information they need without using anything that I would consider real torture.

"If hooking jumper cables up to a terrorist's nuts saves the life of one American soldier, I have only one thing to say: Red is positive, black is negative" (I don't remember who said that)



Wasn't that from some movie?

someone who would approve of torture is to me personally as dangerous as the islamofascists. got some very depraved people on both sides it appears.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:43:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By home_with_kids:
The child may already be dead.

And he may just lie to make you stop.

He may die from his torment before he tells you anything.

There are two sides to any coin.

This is a moral dilemma that comes with a deep, personal decision to be made.

Could you relive his screams every night?



I know nothing about you, but I know enough to state that you don't have kids (or at least shoudn't have kids). There is only ONE side to this coin, and that is the welfare of the kid. The person who threatened my kids can expect only the worst treatment until I am sure that either my kids are safe, or beyond help (torture for revenge has no appeal to me, but I understand those who might think different).

EDIT: I'd still kill the bastard that killed my kids, but not torture him.



If you're so deadset on doing what it takes, how is it that your children were kidnapped in the first place?

As you said, you know nothing about me.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:44:01 PM EDT
Launch gerbils in model rockets check

hey, I've done that! Is it torture?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:45:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
if you have to feed a terrorist feet first into a meat grinder to save some lives I'm all for it.



The problem is...who decides what a terrorist is?
Need I remind you of the DOJ pamphlet that circulated for a while?

Also, the French used torture extensively in Algiers - they lose.
The Soviets used it extensively in Afghanistan - they lost.
Saddam Hussein used it extensively to keep himself in power - he lost.
The Nazis used torture on POWs - they lost.
Torture never works for intel gathering.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:46:27 PM EDT
If you're so deadset on doing what it takes, how is it that your children were kidnapped in the first place?

Speaking metaphorically. My kids are fine. And will remain so, god willing.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:46:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

Originally Posted By mace:
"If hooking jumper cables up to a terrorist's nuts saves the life of one American soldier, I have only one thing to say: Red is positive, black is negative" (I don't remember who said that)



Wasn't that from some movie?

someone who would approve of torture is to me personally as dangerous as the islamofascists. got some very depraved people on both sides it appears.



Problem is, he is condoning it. And i'll admit that I condone it, too.

But condoning it from behind this screen, and being the one that does it are two utterly different things.

You might think it's all good, until you're six inches up the wrist in someone's intestines, and listening to them keen like a newborn.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:46:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By home_with_kids:
Launch gerbils in model rockets check

hey, I've done that! Is it torture?



Heck if i know, they wouldn't say nothing but sqeek
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:46:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By mattimeo:

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
-1 for torture.

My worst fear.



Amen, those caught doing so should be shot.

Be they islamofascist or not.




Some men have kidnapped your daughter or son.

You manage to catch one of them. He won't tell you where your kid is.

Do you wait for him to have his day in court several months from now, when your child in all likelyhood would be dead. or do you break out the pliers and the blowtorch?




The child may already be dead.

And he may just lie to make you stop.

He may die from his torment before he tells you anything.

There are two sides to any coin.

This is a moral dilemma that comes with a deep, personal decision to be made.

Could you relive his screams every night?



Why would I want to "relive his screams every night"? Or did you mean to say "could I live with hearing his screams every night?" ?

Could I? Damn freaking straight. Without a seconds hesistation. If i had a kid who was kidnapped by some scum of the earth, I COULDN'T sleep at night knowing I didn't do all I could to save them.

The question is, could you?

There are things in life I regret and sometimes ponder. But whether I hurt some worthless piece of shit to save a child would NEVER be one of them.



I hope you are absolutly certain of whom you "get" Frankly you remind me of a guy from the Army of God I talked to one time.Scary.............
I got nothing else I can say. you're too far gone buddy.

Good luck.



ok newbie.

You sound like a kumbaya singing liberal who worries more about the feelings of the criminals than about the fate of the victims. From your attitude, you're what's wrong with this country today. Whiney, wishy washy linguini spined liberals who scoff at the ideals of right and wrong.

Here's the deal. Maybe you haven't bothered to do this, but maybe you should if you actually own a gun.

Back when I was studying martial arts, one of hte best pieces of advice I read was that I should make certain how far I was willing to do to defend myself and others, so when the time comes, I wouldn't be plagued with doubt and hesitation that could end up hurting me or them.

I did that. I know what I believe and why.

Do you?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:50:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bastiat:

ok newbie.

You sound like a kumbaya singing liberal who worries more about the feelings of the criminals than about the fate of the victims. From your attitude, you're what's wrong with this country today. Whiney, wishy washy linguini spined liberals who scoff at the ideals of right and wrong.

Here's the deal. Maybe you haven't bothered to do this, but maybe you should if you actually own a gun.

Back when I was studying martial arts, one of hte best pieces of advice I read was that I should make certain how far I was willing to do to defend myself and others, so when the time comes, I wouldn't be plagued with doubt and hesitation that could end up hurting me or them.

I did that. I know what I believe and why.

Do you?



I think you misunderstand what the man is saying.

What if you have the wrong man? What steps have you taken to prove that he is the guilty party?

If he is involved, what makes you so certain that he knows anything at all?

It is one thing to end a life while immediately defending oneself.

It is quite another to systematically destroy another human being through torture, based on unknown circumstances.

The ease with which you make this decision tells me you have put very little thought behind the matter.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:53:11 PM EDT
torture isn't evil if you're doing it to evil people with a good end in mind.


torture someone to get the location of a ticking nuke hidden in a city when you're sure the guy knows? I can't understand anyone who would say torture is wrong in that scenario.

Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:58:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bastiat:
ok newbie.




I'm betting he's been around a while. Cough *virginia22* cough.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:00:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By mattimeo:

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
-1 for torture.

My worst fear.



Amen, those caught doing so should be shot.

Be they islamofascist or not.




Some men have kidnapped your daughter or son.

You manage to catch one of them. He won't tell you where your kid is.

Do you wait for him to have his day in court several months from now, when your child in all likelyhood would be dead. or do you break out the pliers and the blowtorch?




The child may already be dead.

And he may just lie to make you stop.

He may die from his torment before he tells you anything.

There are two sides to any coin.

This is a moral dilemma that comes with a deep, personal decision to be made.

Could you relive his screams every night?



Why would I want to "relive his screams every night"? Or did you mean to say "could I live with hearing his screams every night?" ?

Could I? Damn freaking straight. Without a seconds hesistation. If i had a kid who was kidnapped by some scum of the earth, I COULDN'T sleep at night knowing I didn't do all I could to save them.

The question is, could you?

There are things in life I regret and sometimes ponder. But whether I hurt some worthless piece of shit to save a child would NEVER be one of them.



I hope you are absolutly certain of whom you "get" Frankly you remind me of a guy from the Army of God I talked to one time.Scary.............
I got nothing else I can say. you're too far gone buddy.

Good luck.



ok newbie.

You sound like a kumbaya singing liberal who worries more about the feelings of the criminals than about the fate of the victims. From your attitude, you're what's wrong with this country today. Whiney, wishy washy linguini spined liberals who scoff at the ideals of right and wrong.
Here's the deal. Maybe you haven't bothered to do this, but maybe you should if you actually own a gun.

Back when I was studying martial arts, one of hte best pieces of advice I read was that I should make certain how far I was willing to do to defend myself and others, so when the time comes, I wouldn't be plagued with doubt and hesitation that could end up hurting me or them.

I did that. I know what I believe and why.

Do you?



Wrong buddy, read my second post.


Watch what you ask for, We as gun owners are not far from making the terrorist list. not far at all IMHO




I just don't want to be next.

you assume too much, and I'm an old school Republican thank you very much.

Don't worry, I know what I believe in too. America and the American way, What you propose my friend, is NOT America.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:04:52 PM EDT
This is nothing close to a moral dilemma for me. IF I had a KNOWN murderer, terrorist, etc. in my custody and IF I KNEW with certainty that this person had knowledge of a WMD say, planted in one of our communities and that weapon was about to go off and possibly kill thousands of my fellow citizens, or say he knew where the kidnapped kids were buried, I can ASSURE you all that I would acquire the info I required to save our innocent lives.

All men have a breaking point. If this animal wanted to play tough, then I would accomodate him.

Is it wrong to torture? Certainly it is. Is it wrong to use a WMD on innocent people or kidnap and kill little kids? Without question. My decision to use WHATEVER means necessary to get the info is based upon simple cold logic: As a kidnapper, murderer, terrorist killer, the POS has forfeited any "rights" he MIGHT have had. His life is quickly forfeit should he deny me....which in reality would not happen. If I had the time and the correct chemicals, I'd use them. If not, then other means would be employed...and they would work.

I suspect that it would take no more than five to ten minutes. Maybe longer...but I doubt it.

Oh...and for you noobs, don't assume I'm some sort of monster. Far from it...BUT I also understand the dymanics of this.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:14:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 2:21:10 PM EDT by effinNewGuy]

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

Originally Posted By effinNewGuy:
I am all for it. The end justifies the means. Fuck terrorists and all who support them.



Watch what you ask for, We as gun owners are not far from making the terrorist list. not far at all IMHO



Yup. Your opinion. My opinion says that your opinion is a bit of an exaggeration. IMHO. What do you base this statement on?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:19:39 PM EDT
The Red is positive and the Black is negative.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:20:20 PM EDT
Lets see.

Children kidnapped/nuke hidden in city/similar situation....check

Man sitting in front of me who did the deed or knows where weapon is, etc.....check

Grumpym4 with various power tools, heated metal bits, and a nasty attitude....check.

consience checked at the door......check.

If I had even the slightest hope that my children were alive or that I could find location of said device, etc, I would do what I had to do.

And I fully accept that the enemy would do the same.

This is war, and while I never really liked Gen. Sherman for what he did in the south during the war of northern agression, that tactic would be very useful in our current war.

You don't defeat the enemy by killing more of them then they do of you. You defeat your enemy by taking away his will to fight by letting him know that the stakes are such that everything he holds dear will be completely and utterly destroyed if he continues to fight.

If you KNOW that you have in your possession the person responsible for abducting your children, or you KNOW you have sombody who knows where the device is, then its game on. Fuck PC.

The ruskies had it right. Back in the late 70's or early 80's, when we started having all those people kidnapped in the mideast, the terrs tried to kidnap some russians as well. Instead of negotiating or pussyfooting around, the spetznaz found who the kidnappers were, then started mailing body parts of various family members of the kidnappers to them. The russians were released post haste.

Torture has its place. It like everything else, should be just another tool in the toolbox, only to be pulled out in time of absolute need. Just like you wouldn't pull your concealed pistol out on a guy who accidentally dents your car, you don't torture captured enemy soldiers as a normal course of action. BUT, in the event that you know that the torture of one or two or more badguys will save the lives of your own people, then, as I said before, its game on.

And how I justify my conscience on this is as such.

Human life is only as precious as the person who owns it. If sombody kills another person without good cause, then that persons life is forfiet. If a bad guy kidnaps my children and my children will die if I don't find them, then that mans life is forfiet. When a terr snipes a soldier in Iraq, or sets off a roadside bomb, or detonates a car bomb in a crowded marketplace, that person just made their own life worthless. They are less than human, and therefore, I would be able to do anything to them necessary including torture without having it rest heavy upon my conscience in the slightest.

I did not make the decision to dehumanize them, THEY did by their own actions. I WOULD torture a terr if the situation called for it because they have shown the quality of their own lives by their own actions. Its that simple. Life is cheap. As cheap as you make it. If you hold life dear, and treat others the same, then your life is dear. If you kill and maim indiscriminantly, then your life is worthless.

Its pretty simple really.

Chris
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:21:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By effinNewGuy:

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

Originally Posted By effinNewGuy:
I am all for it. The end justifies the means. Fuck terrorists and all who support them.



Watch what you ask for, We as gun owners are not far from making the terrorist list. not far at all IMHO



Yup. Your opinion. My opinion says that your opinion is a bit of an exaggeration. IMHO.



We'll know sooner rather than later I'm afraid.
Again, JMHO
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:23:14 PM EDT
Well said, Grumpy.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:30:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 2:30:49 PM EDT by unkempt1]

Originally Posted By effinNewGuy:
Well said, Grumpy.



Not grumpy in the least, saddened by some..yes.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:31:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:

Originally Posted By bastiat:
ok newbie.




I'm betting he's been around a while. Cough *virginia22* cough.



what, was virginia22 banned?

Damn, take a few months off and all the trolls disappear (and apparently come back)
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:32:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LWilde:
This is nothing close to a moral dilemma for me. IF I had a KNOWN murderer, terrorist, etc. in my custody and IF I KNEW with certainty that this person had knowledge of a WMD say, planted in one of our communities and that weapon was about to go off and possibly kill thousands of my fellow citizens, or say he knew where the kidnapped kids were buried, I can ASSURE you all that I would acquire the info I required to save our innocent lives.

All men have a breaking point. If this animal wanted to play tough, then I would accomodate him.

Is it wrong to torture? Certainly it is. Is it wrong to use a WMD on innocent people or kidnap and kill little kids? Without question. My decision to use WHATEVER means necessary to get the info is based upon simple cold logic: As a kidnapper, murderer, terrorist killer, the POS has forfeited any "rights" he MIGHT have had. His life is quickly forfeit should he deny me....which in reality would not happen. If I had the time and the correct chemicals, I'd use them. If not, then other means would be employed...and they would work.

I suspect that it would take no more than five to ten minutes. Maybe longer...but I doubt it.

Oh...and for you noobs, don't assume I'm some sort of monster. Far from it...BUT I also understand the dymanics of this.




Bigtime+1

Commit the "wrong" of torturing a scumbag or see 10,000 kids burned alive because he wouldn't talk.

Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:33:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

Originally Posted By effinNewGuy:
Well said, Grumpy.



Not grumpy in the least, saddened by some..yes.



Didn't mean you. I meant GrumpyM4's post above yours.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:40:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By mattimeo:

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
-1 for torture.

My worst fear.



Amen, those caught doing so should be shot.

Be they islamofascist or not.




Some men have kidnapped your daughter or son.

You manage to catch one of them. He won't tell you where your kid is.

Do you wait for him to have his day in court several months from now, when your child in all likelyhood would be dead. or do you break out the pliers and the blowtorch?




The child may already be dead.

And he may just lie to make you stop.

He may die from his torment before he tells you anything.

There are two sides to any coin.

This is a moral dilemma that comes with a deep, personal decision to be made.

Could you relive his screams every night?



Why would I want to "relive his screams every night"? Or did you mean to say "could I live with hearing his screams every night?" ?

Could I? Damn freaking straight. Without a seconds hesistation. If i had a kid who was kidnapped by some scum of the earth, I COULDN'T sleep at night knowing I didn't do all I could to save them.

The question is, could you?

There are things in life I regret and sometimes ponder. But whether I hurt some worthless piece of shit to save a child would NEVER be one of them.



And when it turns out he really didn't know anything - or worse, that he wasn't involved and you made a mistake? How will you sleep then?

Torture is, in all cases, a bad idea. psychological manipulation, however, is worth it. torture is an outmoded and obsolete method of extracting information.

That said, I am using the actual definition of torture (inflicting grave and irreversable bodily harm for the purposes of extracting information) not the media's definition (fratboy antics)
Matt
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:41:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By effinNewGuy:

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

Originally Posted By effinNewGuy:
Well said, Grumpy.



Not grumpy in the least, saddened by some..yes.



Didn't mean you. I meant GrumpyM4's post above yours.




Gotcha
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:43:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:

Originally Posted By bastiat:
ok newbie.




I'm betting he's been around a while. Cough *virginia22* cough.



what, was virginia22 banned?

Damn, take a few months off and all the trolls disappear (and apparently come back)



you meant me Red_Beard? not sure what the problem is or who that is.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:45:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By valheru21:

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By mattimeo:

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By unkempt1:

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
-1 for torture.

My worst fear.



Amen, those caught doing so should be shot.

Be they islamofascist or not.




Some men have kidnapped your daughter or son.

You manage to catch one of them. He won't tell you where your kid is.

Do you wait for him to have his day in court several months from now, when your child in all likelyhood would be dead. or do you break out the pliers and the blowtorch?




The child may already be dead.

And he may just lie to make you stop.

He may die from his torment before he tells you anything.

There are two sides to any coin.

This is a moral dilemma that comes with a deep, personal decision to be made.

Could you relive his screams every night?



Why would I want to "relive his screams every night"? Or did you mean to say "could I live with hearing his screams every night?" ?

Could I? Damn freaking straight. Without a seconds hesistation. If i had a kid who was kidnapped by some scum of the earth, I COULDN'T sleep at night knowing I didn't do all I could to save them.

The question is, could you?

There are things in life I regret and sometimes ponder. But whether I hurt some worthless piece of shit to save a child would NEVER be one of them.



And when it turns out he really didn't know anything - or worse, that he wasn't involved and you made a mistake? How will you sleep then?

Torture is, in all cases, a bad idea. psychological manipulation, however, is worth it. torture is an outmoded and obsolete method of extracting information.

That said, I am using the actual definition of torture (inflicting grave and irreversable bodily harm for the purposes of extracting information) not the media's definition (fratboy antics)
Matt



I wasn't talking about 'gee this maybe might be the guy or it might not'. I'm talking "it IS the guy and he has information"

strange that some people automatically have to go for that line as a way to weasel out of taking a stand.

So why don't you go over to this thread:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=425695

and vote in the poll. Then give your explanation as to why torture, in all cases, is a bad idea.

You'd be in the distinct minority there.

Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:46:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By home_with_kids:
The child may already be dead.

And he may just lie to make you stop.

He may die from his torment before he tells you anything.

There are two sides to any coin.

This is a moral dilemma that comes with a deep, personal decision to be made.

Could you relive his screams every night?



I know nothing about you, but I know enough to state that you don't have kids (or at least shoudn't have kids). There is only ONE side to this coin, and that is the welfare of the kid. The person who threatened my kids can expect only the worst treatment until I am sure that either my kids are safe, or beyond help (torture for revenge has no appeal to me, but I understand those who might think different).

EDIT: I'd still kill the bastard that killed my kids, but not torture him.



And when your child asks you, "daddy, how did you find me?" What will you tell him? That you removed, handfull by handfull, the entrails of his kidnapper after he refused to talk when you slid the banboo stalks under his fingernails? There are some places even a father shouldn't go.

No, I do not have kids, but there are better ways that torture to get to the truth. Torture is a tool of those ignorant of proper interrogation techniques.
Matt
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