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Posted: 1/8/2006 12:18:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 1:08:20 AM EDT by LANCEMAN]
At least we are exporting something




Guns Flow Easily Into Mexico From the U.S. - LA TIMES

NUEVO LAREDO, Mexico — The most popular instruments of robbery, torture, homicide and assassination in this violence-racked border city are imported from the United States.

"Warning," reads the sign greeting motorists on the U.S. side as they approach the Rio Grande that separates the two countries here. "Illegal to carry firearms/ammunition into Mexico. Penalty, prison."

The signs have done little to stop what U.S. and Mexican officials say is a steady and growing commerce of illicit firearms in Mexico — 9-millimeter pistols, shotguns, AK-47s, grenade launchers. An estimated 95% of weapons confiscated from suspected criminals in Mexico were first sold legally in the United States, officials in both countries say.

Guns are the essential tools of a war among underworld crime syndicates that claimed between 1,400 and 2,500 lives in 2005, according to tallies by various newspapers and magazines.

The biggest criminals in Mexico are engaged in an arms race, with an armor-piercing machine gun as the new must-have weapon for the cartels fighting one another for control of the lucrative trade in narcotics, U.S. and Mexican officials say.

In 2005, Nuevo Laredo residents endured the specter of more than 100 suspected drug-cartel executions in their city, and the release of a horrific videotape in which a suspected drug-cartel gunman executes a "prisoner." The city has become a tragic symbol of the gun violence sweeping through the entire country.

"It's obvious where all the arms are coming from," said Higenio Ibarra Murillo, a Nuevo Laredo business owner in the city's historic downtown district. "We don't make any guns or rifles here" in Mexico.

Buying a weapon legally is extremely difficult in Mexico. The country's defense secretary issues all gun licenses — the wait is a year or more, and the cost about $1,900. Licenses must be renewed every two years.

There are fewer than 2,500 registered gun owners in the entire country. Yet Mexican police confiscate an average of 256 weapons every day from suspects, officials from the attorney general's office said recently.

Javier Ortiz Campos of Mexico's Federal Preventive Police says traces by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives on weapons confiscated in Mexico often lead to the gun shops, gun shows and flea markets of Texas. The U.S. state has some of the most liberal gun laws in the country and a porous, 1,240-mile-long border with Mexico.

"Over there they even sell guns at Wal-Mart," Ortiz Campos said. The weapons confiscated in Mexico come mostly from U.S. border cities such as Laredo, El Paso and Brownsville, he said. But many come also from Houston and San Antonio.

"We're finding a lot of weapons from Houston, because the buyers get a better price there than at the border," Ortiz Campos said.

Organized-crime groups in Mexico often buy their weapons in bulk via "straw purchasers" in Texas, where there is no limit on the number of firearms a resident can purchase, said a U.S. official who asked not to be named.

Typically, the Mexican buyer will pay a Texas resident $50 to $100 to acquire the weapons, the official said.

In one case, Mexican and U.S. authorities working together traced 80 confiscated firearms to a Mexican national who paid Texas residents to buy weapons on his behalf, the official said.

Police recovered one 9-millimeter handgun last year at the scene of a shootout between officers and suspected drug-cartel hit men outside the Mexican border town of Reynosa. A trace of the weapon by ATF agents led to another Texas man who had bought 160 weapons. That man is facing gun-trafficking charges in the U.S.

Last year, ATF officials in Arizona arrested a man trying to buy 30 U.S. military hand grenades. The man told undercover agents the grenades were intended for drug traffickers in the northern Mexican state of Sonora. In August, a Tucson man was charged with smuggling AK-47s and AK-47 parts into Mexico.

Large caches of weapons routinely turn up here and in other border communities. Twenty assault rifles were seized in Tijuana on Dec. 20; that same day, Mexican army troops in the state of Sinaloa detained a group of men who were armed with five AK-47 rifles and one AR-15 rifle.

In Nuevo Laredo last month, Mexican police stumbled upon an arsenal in the hands of suspected organized crime members that included grenades, semiautomatic handguns and seven AR-15 assault rifles.

No store in Nuevo Laredo sells handguns or rifles over the counter. But if you take a 15-minute walk over the border to Laredo, you'll find the Bushmaster AR-15 rifle on sale at one gun store for $1,199.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-guns8jan08,1,933952.story?coll=la-headlines-world

Link Posted: 1/8/2006 12:23:31 AM EDT

No store in Nuevo Laredo sells handguns or rifles over the counter. But if you take a 15-minute walk over the border to Laredo, you'll find the Bushmaster AR-15 rifle on sale at one gun store for $1,199.



Hell I could build at least two for that price
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 12:24:43 AM EDT
yeah, uh, shut down the border. hey mexico, you should build a wall.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 12:25:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 12:39:30 AM EDT
Um.. most guns are brought up from South America.. Generally the only guns that are (illegally) exported are to Jamaica...
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 12:55:47 AM EDT
what no nickel plated colt 1911's in 38 super?!
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 12:55:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By leelaw:
Um.. most guns are brought up from South America.. Generally the only guns that are (illegally) exported are to Jamaica...



Yes, quite true, but that (the truth) wouldn't sound as good to the commie LATimes as the gun grabbing nonsense that "reporter" spewed.

Link Posted: 1/8/2006 12:57:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cnow:
yeah, uh, shut down the border. hey mexico, you should build a wall.



right...
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 12:58:55 AM EDT
sounds like Mexico is trying to be like canada and blame us for their problems.


F.. both of em.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:05:35 AM EDT
The guns are just looking for a better life
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:18:56 AM EDT
Those guns are just shooting the ammo the Mexican guns won't shoot.


Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:20:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By leelaw:
Um.. most guns are brought up from South America.. Generally the only guns that are (illegally) exported are to Jamaica...


Huh?

My dept alone has investigated at least 3 large export smuggling cases within the last two years, from one gun shop going to Mx....

Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:24:27 AM EDT
Good. I hope that our guns are causing as much grief for Mexico as their chief export is causing us.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:01:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:
Good. I hope that our guns are causing as much grief for Mexico as their chief export is causing us.



Dear sir,

I could not agree more.

+1


-HS
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:07:00 AM EDT
So....That stringent gun control law in Mexico is working out OK for you guys, then?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:14:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LANCEMAN:
At least we are exporting something




Guns Flow Easily Into Mexico From the U.S. - LA TIMES

NUEVO LAREDO, Mexico — The most popular instruments of robbery, torture, homicide and assassination in this violence-racked border city are imported from the United States.

"Warning," reads the sign greeting motorists on the U.S. side as they approach the Rio Grande that separates the two countries here. "Illegal to carry firearms/ammunition into Mexico. Penalty, prison."

The signs have done little to stop what U.S. and Mexican officials say is a steady and growing commerce of illicit firearms in Mexico — 9-millimeter pistols, shotguns, AK-47s, grenade launchers. An estimated 95% of weapons confiscated from suspected criminals in Mexico were first sold legally in the United States, officials in both countries say.

Guns are the essential tools of a war among underworld crime syndicates that claimed between 1,400 and 2,500 lives in 2005, according to tallies by various newspapers and magazines.

The biggest criminals in Mexico are engaged in an arms race, with an armor-piercing machine gun as the new must-have weapon for the cartels fighting one another for control of the lucrative trade in narcotics, U.S. and Mexican officials say.

In 2005, Nuevo Laredo residents endured the specter of more than 100 suspected drug-cartel executions in their city, and the release of a horrific videotape in which a suspected drug-cartel gunman executes a "prisoner." The city has become a tragic symbol of the gun violence sweeping through the entire country.

"It's obvious where all the arms are coming from," said Higenio Ibarra Murillo, a Nuevo Laredo business owner in the city's historic downtown district. "We don't make any guns or rifles here" in Mexico.

Buying a weapon legally is extremely difficult in Mexico. The country's defense secretary issues all gun licenses — the wait is a year or more, and the cost about $1,900. Licenses must be renewed every two years.

There are fewer than 2,500 registered gun owners in the entire country. Yet Mexican police confiscate an average of 256 weapons every day from suspects, officials from the attorney general's office said recently.

Javier Ortiz Campos of Mexico's Federal Preventive Police says traces by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives on weapons confiscated in Mexico often lead to the gun shops, gun shows and flea markets of Texas. The U.S. state has some of the most liberal gun laws in the country and a porous, 1,240-mile-long border with Mexico.

"Over there they even sell guns at Wal-Mart," Ortiz Campos said. The weapons confiscated in Mexico come mostly from U.S. border cities such as Laredo, El Paso and Brownsville, he said. But many come also from Houston and San Antonio.

"We're finding a lot of weapons from Houston, because the buyers get a better price there than at the border," Ortiz Campos said.

Organized-crime groups in Mexico often buy their weapons in bulk via "straw purchasers" in Texas, where there is no limit on the number of firearms a resident can purchase, said a U.S. official who asked not to be named.

Typically, the Mexican buyer will pay a Texas resident $50 to $100 to acquire the weapons, the official said.

In one case, Mexican and U.S. authorities working together traced 80 confiscated firearms to a Mexican national who paid Texas residents to buy weapons on his behalf, the official said.

Police recovered one 9-millimeter handgun last year at the scene of a shootout between officers and suspected drug-cartel hit men outside the Mexican border town of Reynosa. A trace of the weapon by ATF agents led to another Texas man who had bought 160 weapons. That man is facing gun-trafficking charges in the U.S.

Last year, ATF officials in Arizona arrested a man trying to buy 30 U.S. military hand grenades. The man told undercover agents the grenades were intended for drug traffickers in the northern Mexican state of Sonora. In August, a Tucson man was charged with smuggling AK-47s and AK-47 parts into Mexico.

Large caches of weapons routinely turn up here and in other border communities. Twenty assault rifles were seized in Tijuana on Dec. 20; that same day, Mexican army troops in the state of Sinaloa detained a group of men who were armed with five AK-47 rifles and one AR-15 rifle.

In Nuevo Laredo last month, Mexican police stumbled upon an arsenal in the hands of suspected organized crime members that included grenades, semiautomatic handguns and seven AR-15 assault rifles.

No store in Nuevo Laredo sells handguns or rifles over the counter. But if you take a 15-minute walk over the border to Laredo, you'll find the Bushmaster AR-15 rifle on sale at one gun store for $1,199.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-guns8jan08,1,933952.story?coll=la-headlines-world




So they have a problem with the guns but the drug running and cartels are not a problem. Get rid of the cartels and the illegal guns will go away.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:40:51 AM EDT
Page 2 of that article is even better.

Some excerpts:

"... The salespeople at the store speak Spanish, but the sign over a display case of semiautomatic handguns is in English: "If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."

"... Mexican police have, in recent years, confiscated a handful of bazookas from organized-crime groups. Mexican and U.S. officials say a very small amount of military surplus from recent wars in Central America has found its way into Mexico. But U.S. officials say a bazooka recovered recently from suspected drug cartel hit men in Mexico was traced to an Army depot in Arkansas — the weapon had been deposited there and last accounted for in 1967."

"... The AR-15 is the civilian, semiautomatic equivalent of the M-16 used by U.S. troops since the Vietnam War. The AK-47 was designed by Mikhail Kalashnikov for the Soviet army in 1947. In Mexican street slang both are known as "el cuerno de chivo" — "the goat's horn" — for the distinctive shape of their bullet clips."

"... With that weapon, you can do incredible things," Ortiz Campos said. The AK-47 is not only powerful, it's also idiot-proof, he added. "It will fire underwater."

"... U.S. and Mexican officials say they are also concerned by the presence of .50-caliber machine guns in Mexico. Originally designed as antiaircraft weapons, the guns are used by cartels because they can penetrate armor."

"... Ten or 15 years ago, you rarely saw a .50-caliber weapon" in Mexico, the U.S. official said. "Now they're popping up everywhere."
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:58:10 AM EDT
an armor-piercing machine gun



So they don't need ammo anymore?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 3:10:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 3:23:51 AM EDT
I think the title of this thread should be reversed-----and changed to read: "Illegal immigrants flow easily into the U. S. from Mexico----robbery, torture and homicide follow in their wake".
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 4:10:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cnow:
yeah, uh, shut down the border. hey mexico, you should build a wall.



+1
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 4:15:56 AM EDT
Aquabumping in mexico
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 4:21:40 AM EDT

The biggest criminals in Mexico are engaged in an arms race, with an armor-piercing machine gun as the new must-have weapon for the cartels fighting one another for control of the lucrative trade in narcotics, U.S. and Mexican officials say.


And yet the laziest, most corrupt police force in north america is not compelled to act in defense of it's own citizens.


Buying a weapon legally is extremely difficult in Mexico. The country's defense secretary issues all gun licenses — the wait is a year or more, and the cost about $1,900. Licenses must be renewed every two years.


and yet every criminal in Mexico seems to have one


Javier Ortiz Campos of Mexico's Federal Preventive Police says traces by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives on weapons confiscated in Mexico often lead to the gun shops, gun shows and flea markets of Texas. The U.S. state has some of the most liberal gun laws in the country and a porous, 1,240-mile-long border with Mexico.


a functioning international border, fenced and regulated, monitored by non-corrupt police could be a viable solution and yet again the only idea that appeals is to restrict rights of law abiding citizens


No store in Nuevo Laredo sells handguns or rifles over the counter. But if you take a 15-minute walk over the border to Laredo, you'll find the Bushmaster AR-15 rifle on sale at one gun store for $1,199.


I bet there are stores in Nuevo Laredo that sell fake green cards, social security cards, birth certificates, stores that sell equipment and maps for sneaking across the border, guides working on store fronts to aid the illegal immigrants, drug traffic, spies and terrorists in their quest to come into the USA.

They live in a shit hole by choice, the mexican government is famous for being corrupt on every level, as well as the police, this is the result. This has nothing to do with legal gun owners in the US of A. This is basically the same story they ran last week out of Canada. It is a new angle on banning gun rights. Do it for the lousy countries to lazy to do it for themselves.




Link Posted: 1/8/2006 4:30:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 4:49:14 AM EDT
we'll stop exporting guns if they stop exporting Mexicans!
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 5:11:47 AM EDT

a functioning international border, fenced and regulated, monitored by non-corrupt police could be a viable solution and yet again the only idea that appeals is to restrict rights of law abiding citizens


That has been discussed before here. None of the people in favor of it could explain how many people it would take, how much it would cost, or how it could be reasonably accomplished.



I bet there are stores in Nuevo Laredo that sell fake green cards, social security cards, birth certificates, stores that sell equipment and maps for sneaking across the border, guides working on store fronts to aid the illegal immigrants, drug traffic, spies and terrorists in their quest to come into the USA.


I bet you severely underestimate the size of the illegal immigrant industry. But "spies and terrorists"????? Better adjust the tin foil hat again. Some harmful rays are getting through.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 5:30:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

a functioning international border, fenced and regulated, monitored by non-corrupt police could be a viable solution and yet again the only idea that appeals is to restrict rights of law abiding citizens


That has been discussed before here. None of the people in favor of it could explain how many people it would take, how much it would cost, or how it could be reasonably accomplished.




What's wrong with a huge high voltage electric razor wire fence, with a 200 yard wide high density minefield, and machine gun towers every quarter mile? That should be easy enough to calculate. Maybe actually start shooting at them as they invade?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 5:32:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gus:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

a functioning international border, fenced and regulated, monitored by non-corrupt police could be a viable solution and yet again the only idea that appeals is to restrict rights of law abiding citizens


That has been discussed before here. None of the people in favor of it could explain how many people it would take, how much it would cost, or how it could be reasonably accomplished.




What's wrong with a huge high voltage electric razor wire fence, with a 200 yard wide high density minefield, and machine gun towers every quarter mile? That should be easy enough to calculate. Maybe actually start shooting at them as they invade?



Well, if it is easy enough to calculate the cost, why don't you be first? Show us some reasonable estimate, along with staffing figures, that will fit within the US national budget.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 5:38:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 5:48:01 AM EDT by gus]

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By gus:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

a functioning international border, fenced and regulated, monitored by non-corrupt police could be a viable solution and yet again the only idea that appeals is to restrict rights of law abiding citizens


That has been discussed before here. None of the people in favor of it could explain how many people it would take, how much it would cost, or how it could be reasonably accomplished.




What's wrong with a huge high voltage electric razor wire fence, with a 200 yard wide high density minefield, and machine gun towers every quarter mile? That should be easy enough to calculate. Maybe actually start shooting at them as they invade?



Well, if it is easy enough to calculate the cost, why don't you be first? Show us some reasonable estimate, along with staffing figures, that will fit within the US national budget.



You're asking an electrical engineer in the telecom business to calculate how much a military operation will cost? Please. I can't for the same reason you can't. However, it's easy to see the cost of NOT doing it.

Here's an idea - move some or all of those folks we have stationed in Germany to a new base that happens to stretch along our southern border. Much of the land is already owned by the feds, shouldn't cost us a whole lot. We already have lots of machine guns. I'm sure we have a nice stockpile of land mines stored somewhere that's just taking up space. So we're pretty much looking at the cost of razor wire and some towers. After a few die trying to cross, the flood will subside.

Seems to me the only hold up is political, not economic. ETA: A large part of paying for it could come from the savings realized by NOT having to provide social services and medical care for millions of illegals.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 5:42:10 AM EDT
Were can I go to buy armor-piercing machine gun, a grenade launcher, and a full auto AK 47? You know none of this stuff could have come from any were but Texas were, according to the press, every one over the age of 3 has a pistol, assault rifle, and tons of ammo. Texas has the most liberal of gun laws according to the article. But don’t they have a low crime rate? Could there be a connection?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 5:52:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gus:
You're asking an electrical engineer in the telecom business to calculate how much a military operation will cost? Please.



Well, the basics of figuring out how much something should cost are pretty straightforward. First, you figure out the costs of a few thousand miles of chain link fence. Then you figure out how many people you want every so many yards, and you get the number of people who have to be on the border at any given time. Then you figure there are three shifts a day, weekends off, at least two people in support of the people who are on the line, etc., etc.

Same procedure as figuring out how much it would cost to build a house, only more of it.


I can't for the same reason you can't.


Actually, I have done it rough estimates at times, as have other people who are far more knowledgeable of the subject than I am. The answer always comes out the same -- you can't afford it. No way, no how.


However, it's easy to see the cost of NOT doing it.


Well, if that is easy, then give us the figures.


Here's an idea - move some or all of those folks we have stationed in Germany to a new base that happens to stretch along our southern border. Much of the land is already owned by the feds, shouldn't cost us a whole lot. We already have lots of machine guns. I'm sure we have a nice stockpile of land mines stored somewhere that's just taking up space. So we're pretty much looking at the cost of razor wire and some towers. After a few die trying to cross, the flood will subside.

Seems to me the only hold up is political, not economic.



OK, let's test your theory.

First question: How long is the stretch of border you want to seal?

Second question: How far apart will your people be?

Give us those two numbers and we will have a start on an estimate. We will know how many people it would take.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:34:28 AM EDT
Waa. Waa. Waa. It will cost too much, it will be too hard, it is just too much. Waa. Waa. Waa.

I'm glad we didn't think that way when we:

built the panama canal
built the hoover damn
built the interstate system
built the a-bomb
built the Apollo mission vehicles to go to the moon
built America

Damn, to give up before we even try when the goal isn't the wall itself but the freedom from an invading herd of illegal aliens.

Do I want to live in mexico? No.
Do I want to live among a billion mexicans? No.
Do I support a wall at any cost? Yes.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:37:10 AM EDT

American guns are just shooting the the bullets that Mexican guns don't want to.

Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:37:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hmanjr:
Waa. Waa. Waa. It will cost too much, it will be too hard, it is just too much. Waa. Waa. Waa.

I'm glad we didn't think that way when we:

built the panama canal
built the hoover damn
built the interstate system
built the a-bomb
built the Apollo mission vehicles to go to the moon
built America

Damn, to give up before we even try when the goal isn't the wall itself but the freedom from an invading herd of illegal aliens.

Do I want to live in mexico? No.
Do I want to live among a billion mexicans? No.
Do I support a wall at any cost? Yes.



I agree. Sad day when Americans become American'ts.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:38:49 AM EDT
+1,000,000
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:46:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
I agree. Sad day when Americans become American'ts.



Yep. Some of these people seem to want us to just lay down and die. To just roll over and leave our homes and spirits open for the use of whomever. To give away our birth right because it wasn't fair.

They seem to want to us to forget that we are the beneficiaries of the greater people that came before us. I feel a stewardship to that American greatness, so that my kids and their kids may enjoy the America that I've enjoyed.

We have this country because it was given to us by our for fathers. Fair and Square.

Now I feel very slightly sorry for the loosing sides in history. Very mildy sorry for them in a detatched distanced academic sort of way.

I feel no pity, no sorry, nor would I feel any remorse or guilt in killing the MFers that would take or give away what is ours.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:46:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By markmars:
Were can I go to buy armor-piercing machine gun, a grenade launcher, and a full auto AK 47? You know none of this stuff could have come from any were but Texas were, according to the press, every one over the age of 3 has a pistol, assault rifle, and tons of ammo. Texas has the most liberal of gun laws according to the article. But don’t they have a low crime rate? Could there be a connection?



dude you're making far too much sense.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:47:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 6:48:41 AM EDT by Justa_TXguy]

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:

What they found was a large stash of coke and a case of Isreali Uzis, the wooden crate still in the carboard box that said, "Hecho de en Mexico" on its side.



Doesn't it blow that this dirtball gets to have UZIs and we fucking can't.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:49:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hmanjr:
Waa. Waa. Waa. It will cost too much, it will be too hard, it is just too much. Waa. Waa. Waa.

I'm glad we didn't think that way when we:

built the panama canal
built the hoover damn
built the interstate system
built the a-bomb
built the Apollo mission vehicles to go to the moon
built America

Damn, to give up before we even try when the goal isn't the wall itself but the freedom from an invading herd of illegal aliens.

Do I want to live in mexico? No.
Do I want to live among a billion mexicans? No.
Do I support a wall at any cost? Yes.



Maybe you missed the fact that they did cost estimates and had budgets for all those things before they started. They may have run over budget on some, but they still had some foggy clue where they were going when they started?

Have you gotten to the "foggy clue" point yet?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:51:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By spartacus2002:

Originally Posted By Hmanjr:
Waa. Waa. Waa. It will cost too much, it will be too hard, it is just too much. Waa. Waa. Waa.

I'm glad we didn't think that way when we:

built the panama canal
built the hoover damn
built the interstate system
built the a-bomb
built the Apollo mission vehicles to go to the moon
built America

Damn, to give up before we even try when the goal isn't the wall itself but the freedom from an invading herd of illegal aliens.

Do I want to live in mexico? No.
Do I want to live among a billion mexicans? No.
Do I support a wall at any cost? Yes.



I agree. Sad day when Americans become American'ts.



So flap your arms and fly. Don't tell me you can't. Don't tell me that a simple knowledge of aerodynamics could prove instantly that you couldn't. Just do it, and stop being one of those pussy American'ts.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:52:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By gus:
You're asking an electrical engineer in the telecom business to calculate how much a military operation will cost? Please.



Well, the basics of figuring out how much something should cost are pretty straightforward. First, you figure out the costs of a few thousand miles of chain link fence. Then you figure out how many people you want every so many yards, and you get the number of people who have to be on the border at any given time. Then you figure there are three shifts a day, weekends off, at least two people in support of the people who are on the line, etc., etc.

Same procedure as figuring out how much it would cost to build a house, only more of it.


I can't for the same reason you can't.


Actually, I have done it rough estimates at times, as have other people who are far more knowledgeable of the subject than I am. The answer always comes out the same -- you can't afford it. No way, no how.


However, it's easy to see the cost of NOT doing it.


Well, if that is easy, then give us the figures.


Here's an idea - move some or all of those folks we have stationed in Germany to a new base that happens to stretch along our southern border. Much of the land is already owned by the feds, shouldn't cost us a whole lot. We already have lots of machine guns. I'm sure we have a nice stockpile of land mines stored somewhere that's just taking up space. So we're pretty much looking at the cost of razor wire and some towers. After a few die trying to cross, the flood will subside.

Seems to me the only hold up is political, not economic.



OK, let's test your theory.

First question: How long is the stretch of border you want to seal?

Second question: How far apart will your people be?

Give us those two numbers and we will have a start on an estimate. We will know how many people it would take.




Razor wire, not chain link fence. Since I have no idea the cost of razor wire, I can't give you that number. You can find the length of the border in most any atlas. I figure a gun tower every quarter mile (keep in mind, I have no military experience - you may be easily able to spread them out more). We already have a bunch of the people required - they're stationed in unappreciative countries around the world, starting with Germany. Figure several guys in each tower, with M2's or miniguns. If I can assume a 1000 mile stretch of border, that comes out to 8000 guys more or less, per shift. Military guys would know better how far to space them and how to arm them. That's less than our current deployment in Germany IIRC. The land mines don't eat or take time off. Don't forget to electrify the fence too, and there will be some cost for survalence gear and what not.

I still don't see it as cost prohibitive, especially considering the alternative. I see only politics in the way.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:52:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hmanjr:

Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
I agree. Sad day when Americans become American'ts.



Yep. Some of these people seem to want us to just lay down and die. To just roll over and leave our homes and spirits open for the use of whomever. To give away our birth right because it wasn't fair.

They seem to want to us to forget that we are the beneficiaries of the greater people that came before us. I feel a stewardship to that American greatness, so that my kids and their kids may enjoy the America that I've enjoyed.

We have this country because it was given to us by our for fathers. Fair and Square.

Now I feel very slightly sorry for the loosing sides in history. Very mildy sorry for them in a detatched distanced academic sort of way.

I feel no pity, no sorry, nor would I feel any remorse or guilt in killing the MFers that would take or give away what is ours.



Who, besides you, said that? I just asked for some figures on what the plan would cost.

I guess you have automatically assumed that providing figures for the plan would immediately show that the plan is rather foolish. If that's the case, you are right.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:53:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:
Maybe you missed the fact that they did cost estimates and had budgets for all those things before they started. They may have run over budget on some, but they still had some foggy clue where they were going when they started?
Have you gotten to the "foggy clue" point yet?



Maybe somethings are just too important to not do.

I doubt anyone will ever know the true cost in dollars of our war on terror. But most seem to thing it's important. Or are you against that also, since there wasn't a projected cost analysis completed to your approval beforehand?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:53:19 AM EDT
Maybe they should close the border to stop the flow of illegal immigrants guns.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:59:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
I agree. Sad day when Americans become American'ts.



So flap your arms and fly. Don't tell me you can't. Don't tell me that a simple knowledge of aerodynamics could prove instantly that you couldn't. Just do it, and stop being one of those pussy American'ts.



You're confusing science with economics - please stay focused.

I may have missed it somewhere else, but exactly what do YOU propose we do about the situation? Per you, we can't seal the borders. Let's hear your thoughts on how to address this crisis...
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:59:08 AM EDT
I was in Mexico (100 miles in) for the New Year's, at midnight I heard at least one full auto, many other weapons shooting and did even get to shoot a Colt 1911 in 38 super . There are a lot of guns in Mexico, may be all illegal, but they are there.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:59:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:
Who, besides you, said that? I just asked for some figures on what the plan would cost.
I guess you have automatically assumed that providing figures for the plan would immediately show that the plan is rather foolish. If that's the case, you are right.



And I really don't care.

This comes up from time to time. Someone expresses his/ her outrage at our governments inability to do anything and their seeming approval of illegal aliens. There are so many good American lives being destroyed each and every day by illegal aliens.

Isreal builds a wall to keep terrorists out. It works and the world comdemns them.

We build walls here and there. There is one in CA that was finally built over the objections of some environmental weenies and guess what, it worked!!!

Walls work. I know the costs would be worth an America without illegals. My arguement isn't with you in particular, just with any pro-illegal alien do-gooder who would destroy America by telling the emporer his clothes are the finest in all the land.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 7:32:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 7:33:01 AM EDT by KA3B]

The signs have done little to stop what U.S. and Mexican officials say is a steady and growing commerce of illicit firearms in Mexico — 9-millimeter pistols, shotguns, AK-47s, grenade launchers.


Where can I buy a grenade launcher?


The biggest criminals in Mexico are engaged in an arms race, with an armor-piercing machine gun as the new must-have weapon for the cartels.


Where can I buy an armor-piercing machine gun?


"Over there they even sell guns at Wal-Mart,"


Daymn, Walmart really does have everything....


Last year, ATF officials in Arizona arrested a man trying to buy 30 U.S. military hand grenades.


What aisle are grenades on at your local Walmart?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 7:34:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By leelaw:
Um.. most guns are brought up from South America..



Taurus, Rossi, Imbel?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 7:38:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gus:
Razor wire, not chain link fence. Since I have no idea the cost of razor wire, I can't give you that number.



From what I can find, the cost of razor wire is roughly $1.50 a foot. It has to go on top of a minimum 8-foot fence, which will run you at least $12 per foot. Of course, that isn't the end of it, because that will just give you a fence that any illegal alien could easily burrow under. To solve that problem, you will have to have a concrete base along the entire thing. From rough info on the net, figure that cost at an extra dollar a foot -- for the most minimal concrete base.


You can find the length of the border in most any atlas.


Yeah, you can, and I have. The point being that you have to have this number before you even start blue-skying about what you might like to do.

To help you out, the border with Mexico is about 2500 miles long. The total border is about 20,000 miles long. For the sake of this discussion, let's just stick with the smaller number to give your ideas the best chance possible. Hell, there is no possibility that terrorists would think to come across the Canadian border, anyway.

The cost of the fence for the Mexican border alone would be (roughly) $15 per foot, times 5,280 feet, times 2,500 miles == roughly 200 million dollars. For the entire border, at least 1.6 billion for a fence that probably wouldn't stop a determined jackrabbit.

If you really want to see what kind of fence they need, take a visit to the border at San Ysidro. I don't know what that one would cost but certainly many times what we are considering here.

If you want something really effective, then you ought to be looking at the kind of barrier that was laid down for the Berlin Wall. But, of course, that would be hugely more expensive than anything we are considering here, and it didn't entirely stop people, either.


I figure a gun tower every quarter mile (keep in mind, I have no military experience - you may be easily able to spread them out more).


OK, then for the Mexican border that would be about 10,000 gun towers, or about 80,000 gun towers if we wanted to really secure the borders.


We already have a bunch of the people required - they're stationed in unappreciative countries around the world, starting with Germany. Figure several guys in each tower, with M2's or miniguns. If I can assume a 1000 mile stretch of border, that comes out to 8000 guys more or less, per shift.


When you said "several guys" you really meant two? I go with your idea that "several guys" per post would be reasonable, but I don't interpret that as "two". But, never mind, let's go with your 8,000 guy per shift estimate. That's 24,000 guys per day, per 1,000 mile stretch of border.

Now, that assumes that these guys work 365 days a year. They don't. They get weekends, sick days, and vacations just like everyone else. Therefore, you have to bump that 8,000 figure up at least 25 percent to account for time off. So that leaves us with a nice round number of 10,000 guys per 1,000 miles of border, or ten guys per mile (minimum).

Then, if you study military logistics, you will find that there are usually two or three people in support roles for every person actually standing on the line. You know, truck drivers, cooks, bottle washers, radio operators, managers, mechanics, etc. That brings us up to thirty or forty thousand people per 1,000 miles of border -- thirty or forty people per mile.


Military guys would know better how far to space them and how to arm them. That's less than our current deployment in Germany IIRC. The land mines don't eat or take time off. Don't forget to electrify the fence too, and there will be some cost for survalence gear and what not.

I still don't see it as cost prohibitive, especially considering the alternative. I see only politics in the way.



Well, let's forget the land mines and electrification for minute and just go with the information from above. (You could expect serious political flack from around the world for land mines, BTW.)

If you want to seal the entire border, that would require (minimum) 30 to 40 people per mile -- about 600,000 to 800,000 troops -- most of whom would have the most excruciatingly boring jobs in the world. I looked up the number of US Army troops and found there were about 500,000, with another 700,000 NG troops. So such a deployment would take all of our Army and perhaps half of the NG -- which could then not be used for any other purpose.

If you just want to seal the Mexican border (and figure that Mexicans are too stupid to figure out a way around your Maginot line) then that would take about 100,000 troops -- something close to our current deployment in Iraq. IIRC, I have heard many military experts talking about how we really aren't equipped to do two Iraqs at once and, if we did one of those deployments in our own country then we would be seriously weakened for any other potential deployments overseas.

And, of course, we haven't really started adding up the costs, as you have said yourself. Even if we deploy 100,000 troops that wouldn't begin to seal the border. We would still have to have all the electrification, gear that goes with the troops, etc., etc.

Link Posted: 1/8/2006 7:41:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

a functioning international border, fenced and regulated, monitored by non-corrupt police could be a viable solution and yet again the only idea that appeals is to restrict rights of law abiding citizens


That has been discussed before here. None of the people in favor of it could explain how many people it would take



Less than we have deployed to Germany, Okinawa, Korea, Saudi Arbia and Iraq.


how much it would cost


Less than the 11 billion a year Cali spends on illegals.


or how it could be reasonably accomplished.


Volunteers, US Military, National Guard.

for example. Right now training for the michigan national Guard consist of going to camp grayling or Fort custer for 2 weeks, drinking a lot of beer and basically screwing around. Better training would be ship them to the border for two weeks a year, give then claymores and live ammo and let them practicse ambushes on the invaders.

All NG and reserve training should be done on the border. It should also be used for all air asset training and they should do it with live ammo. Why waste ammo dropping bombs in the so cal desert when you could be dropping them on coyotes instead?
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