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Posted: 1/7/2006 10:12:51 PM EDT
Damn, skippy- whatever happened to the greatest army on Earth?


Teen recruits 'hit with golf club' in new bullying claim
By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 08/01/2006)

Teenage Army recruits were attacked with golf clubs, beaten unconscious and forced to swallow mouthfuls of hot chilli sauce by instructors at a military training camp, it has been alleged.

The claims were made by Darren Jacques, 18, who says that he and other recruits at the Infantry Training Centre in Catterick, North Yorks, were routinely bullied, beaten and abused by instructors.

Mr Jacques joined the Army aged 17 in 2004 hoping to become a paratrooper. But less than a year into his training, he was medically discharged, after what he described as a very distressing and degrading experience.

The Army has faced growing criticism over its attitude towards the abuse of recruits, even though senior officers say there is a zero tolerance policy towards bullying. Following the four deaths at the Deepcut training barracks, a select committee of MPs found the Ministry of Defence had given "insufficient weight to the issue of bullying". If proven, the Catterick allegations will be a blow for the Army which is about to launch a television campaign to reverse a slide in recruitment.

Details of the alleged bullying, which took place in March and April last year, were revealed in a statement Mr Jacques gave to the Royal Military Police, which has been seen by the Sunday Telegraph.

On one occasion Mr Jacques alleges that members of Athens Platoon, his training unit, were beaten around the head by an instructor armed with a golf club.

Mr Jacques said: "I saw the club make contact with the trainee's head. He reacted by holding his head in both hands. I heard him shout as if he was in pain."

Mr Jacques was also struck and claims that when he tried to protect himself from being hit for a second time, the instructor, along with another who had been in the French Foreign Legion, bundled him into a lavatory where he was beaten and strangled unconscious.

In the 13-page statement, made last June, Mr Jacques described being "hot-sauced", in which recruits were made to drink chilli sauce, often leading to vomiting.

Mr Jacques alleges that the second instructor mixed the sauce with cheese, beer, tea and coffee. The mixture was heated before being given to recruits. Mr Jacques said it made him vomit instantly. At least four others suffered the same fate, he claims. Summing up his experience, Mr Jacques said: "It particularly upsets me that the Army appears to allow and tolerate such ill treatment and behaviour to continue within its ranks."

A spokesman for the Ministry of Defence said: "Two individuals are being investigated following allegations of mistreatment. The case is with the Army Prosecuting Authority and therefore we are unable to make any comment." Sources close to the investigation are convinced, however, that despite the serious nature of the allegations the instructors, who have been suspended from training during the investigation, will be exonerated.

Mr Jacques's claims emerged months after the Ministry of Defence launched an inquiry at the camp following the BBC screening of a video that appeared to show recruits facing mock interrogations. The instructors have been told they may be charged with assault.


Link Posted: 1/7/2006 10:16:36 PM EDT
Sounds like a "Hosed up" recruit
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 10:18:51 PM EDT
Sounds like an average episode of Jackass to me.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 10:25:57 PM EDT
If you have to hit recruits over the head with golf clubs or burn their mouths to get them to do what you want, something's very wrong. either with the quailty of recruits or the character of the instructors.

But then again, I've never been in the military.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 10:30:22 PM EDT
Possibly, that's HOW they became the greatest army on earth - by brutal training and weeding out of weaklings. Also, many of their recruits have traditionally been the street toughs from the northern industrial towns, who can take a beating , and others who may have grown up in the dog-eat-dog world of British boarding schools.

British sergeants are essentially particularly mean-spirited gorillas that have been strategically shaved and stuffed into a uniform.


Actually, those descriptions of training don't particularly surprise me. When we occasionally had British regiments in to train with, I was sometimes disturbed by how violent they could get, even just on base and on field exercise. I remember during one joint exercise, a Danish truck driver (male) got raped by some British troops. Another time I saw two corporals holding a private while a sergeant beat the tar out of him for mouthing off (not that the sergeants wouldn't sometimes get physical with our privates in our regiment, but not to the same blatant extent). If a confrontation broke out in the private's rec hall/mess, the broken bottles came out quickly if Brits were involved.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 11:31:08 PM EDT
There's nothing wrong with bashing someone on the head. It builds character. Look, the Russians do it too.



NTM
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 11:39:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Manic_Moran:
There's nothing wrong with bashing someone on the head. It builds character. Look, the Russians do it too.

russiannavy.net/photos/misc/40.jpg

NTM




Link Posted: 1/8/2006 12:41:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Possibly, that's HOW they became the greatest army on earth - by brutal training and weeding out of weaklings. Also, many of their recruits have traditionally been the street toughs from the northern industrial towns, who can take a beating , and others who may have grown up in the dog-eat-dog world of British boarding schools.

British sergeants are essentially particularly mean-spirited gorillas that have been strategically shaved and stuffed into a uniform.


Actually, those descriptions of training don't particularly surprise me. When we occasionally had British regiments in to train with, I was sometimes disturbed by how violent they could get, even just on base and on field exercise. I remember during one joint exercise, a Danish truck driver (male) got raped by some British troops. Another time I saw two corporals holding a private while a sergeant beat the tar out of him for mouthing off (not that the sergeants wouldn't sometimes get physical with our privates in our regiment, but not to the same blatant extent). If a confrontation broke out in the private's rec hall/mess, the broken bottles came out quickly if Brits were involved.

Yup, British soldiers raped a Dutch para UN soldier in Bosnia a couple of years back.
I'm allways surprised that many Americans see the British as a very civil people, most Europeans know better.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:03:13 AM EDT
This kind of shit has been going on in the British Forces for years. I first heard of this kind of stuff going on when I worked with the Royal Air Force Police in Saudi in 2002. Most of the RAFP guys were quite disgusted by the whole thing. There was a whole slew of cases that came out where trainers had been approaching their trainees demanding homosexual sex and when the troopers refused, they would end up dead on the next live fire excercise. One troop was shot while trying to escape a gang rape. There has been quite a bit of publicity surrounding this stuff in the UK. I think the people who are responsible for this should be hunted down and tried and jailed for this. Parents put alot of trust in the military when they give their sons and daughters to the military. It should only be right to keep up the bargain by training, molding and taking care of your troops and not subject them to torture and possibly death due to reckless and animalistic behavior.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:18:49 AM EDT
rape????

wtf????
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 5:50:16 AM EDT
I had some contact w/the british forces in the mid '80s.

Honestly I was not impressed with them at all. Militarily they were professional, but on a personal level thier conduct was pretty disgusting. Drinking with them was a real treat. Thier idea of fun was on par with something you would hear that would happen in prison. They seemed to take pride in being senselessly violent and borderline homosexual.

Strange bunch.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 5:56:29 AM EDT
Here's some British understatement for you:

"I saw the club make contact with the trainee's head. He reacted by holding his head in both hands. I heard him shout as if he was in pain."
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:06:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BillSouthCarolina:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Possibly, that's HOW they became the greatest army on earth - by brutal training and weeding out of weaklings. Also, many of their recruits have traditionally been the street toughs from the northern industrial towns, who can take a beating , and others who may have grown up in the dog-eat-dog world of British boarding schools.

British sergeants are essentially particularly mean-spirited gorillas that have been strategically shaved and stuffed into a uniform.


Actually, those descriptions of training don't particularly surprise me. When we occasionally had British regiments in to train with, I was sometimes disturbed by how violent they could get, even just on base and on field exercise. I remember during one joint exercise, a Danish truck driver (male) got raped by some British troops. Another time I saw two corporals holding a private while a sergeant beat the tar out of him for mouthing off (not that the sergeants wouldn't sometimes get physical with our privates in our regiment, but not to the same blatant extent). If a confrontation broke out in the private's rec hall/mess, the broken bottles came out quickly if Brits were involved.

Yup, British soldiers raped a Dutch para UN soldier in Bosnia a couple of years back.
I'm allways surprised that many Americans see the British as a very civil people, most Europeans know better.



There were no gas chambers in the UK

You have a cheek to talk about civility...
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:08:09 AM EDT
The recruit sounds.................FRENCH. It was probably really just tea and he was bopped on the head with a pen for not paying attention. Merci.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:12:01 AM EDT
May be borderline brutal, but it makes them tough, no?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:14:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Taffy223:
There were no gas chambers in the UK

You have a cheek to talk about civility...



I believe that guy is US Military stationed in Deutschland.

I have trained with the British military as well. I just thought it strange that they thought it was appropriate to go to weapons qualification wearing skirts!

I didn't witness any of the brutality mentioned here, personally.

Cheers,

kk7sm
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:17:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kk7sm:

Originally Posted By Taffy223:
There were no gas chambers in the UK

You have a cheek to talk about civility...



I believe that guy is US Military stationed in Deutschland.

I have trained with the British military as well. I just thought it strange that they thought it was appropriate to go to weapons qualification wearing skirts!

I didn't witness any of the brutality mentioned here, personally.

Cheers,

kk7sm




if thats the case I retract my comment....
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:30:56 AM EDT
I trained with alot of Brits in Turkey back in 1980. Very nice guys, and I did not personally witness any of the above. They were treated like shit by their Officers and senior NCO's.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:40:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Taffy223:

Originally Posted By BillSouthCarolina:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Possibly, that's HOW they became the greatest army on earth - by brutal training and weeding out of weaklings. Also, many of their recruits have traditionally been the street toughs from the northern industrial towns, who can take a beating , and others who may have grown up in the dog-eat-dog world of British boarding schools.

British sergeants are essentially particularly mean-spirited gorillas that have been strategically shaved and stuffed into a uniform.


Actually, those descriptions of training don't particularly surprise me. When we occasionally had British regiments in to train with, I was sometimes disturbed by how violent they could get, even just on base and on field exercise. I remember during one joint exercise, a Danish truck driver (male) got raped by some British troops. Another time I saw two corporals holding a private while a sergeant beat the tar out of him for mouthing off (not that the sergeants wouldn't sometimes get physical with our privates in our regiment, but not to the same blatant extent). If a confrontation broke out in the private's rec hall/mess, the broken bottles came out quickly if Brits were involved.

Yup, British soldiers raped a Dutch para UN soldier in Bosnia a couple of years back.
I'm allways surprised that many Americans see the British as a very civil people, most Europeans know better.



There were no gas chambers in the UK

You have a cheek to talk about civility...



What's wrong with gas chambers?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:59:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:
Damn, skippy- whatever happened to the greatest army on Earth?


Do you realize that at about the time they fielded the finest line infantry on Earth (late 18th to early 19th C) this sort of behavior would not have even been noticed or thought out-of-place?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:59:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 7:00:10 AM EDT by 95thFoot]
Well, before this descends into a US vs. British slugfest, I just wanted to make the point that long ago, such brutality was needed in most any army in the world, if they were going to be tough enough to stand up in open fields to concentrated volley fire.

Soldiers back, say, 200 years ago had to know a lot, just in marching, field maneuvers and firing drill. It was constant brutal repetition, to the point of becoming unthing about what you did, so that you became more afraid of the army's punishments than you were of standing up to the enemy. A British soldier's training generally took almost two years. Raw recruits were not sent into battle.

To be able to stand there and take that sort of punishment on the battlefield needed a special toughening and weeding out off the battlefield, in training, of people who had been brutalized all their lives in rural or urban life, esp. in Britain. In other words, the army reflected the society it defended and drew its recruits from.

In Britain's case this helped to create a hugely successful army. However, reformers realised even back in the 1700s and 1800s that mere brutality won't win wars all the time, and argued for better treatment of men and selecting some for special duties because of their intelligence. Loyalty was won with such men instead of beating it into them. These troops formed the basis of the modern soldier, at least as this civilian understands it.

Modern armies demand intelligent people in the ranks, because so much is now mechanized and computerized, demanding brighter people who have skills that might serve them in the civilain world instead of the military. Why should one have to use 18th cent. methods of discipline and punishment with people who, ostensibly, are too smart to put up with it? Britain's army historically was a volunteer army. It was not a draftee conscript army until 1915, and National Service, its modern draftee system, ended in, IIRC, 1959. You have to attract people to join the military nowadays. So, why bother systematically brutalizing recruits?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 7:00:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 4:41:11 PM EDT by panzersergeant]
During my last tour in Germany (early 80's) I served in a special weapons unit in North Rhine Westphalia. My unit maintained tactical nuke warheads (both missile and tube artillery) to be issued to our allies in the event of a Soviet attack. *

I had a British truck (a "Bedford") with a British driver. My section always went to the field attached to a British RCT regiment. As far as corporal punishment goes, some of the shit I saw British NCOs do to their troops would land an American NCO in Leavenworth making big rocks into little rocks.

Moving through some woods one rainy night we came to a ravine with steep banks that was very muddy at it's lowest point. My British counterpart and I stood at the bottom of the ravine guiding the trucks across with red-filtered flashlights. As long as the trucks got a running start down the embankment the big Bedfords had no problem getting through the mud and up the other side.

After three or four trucks had crossed a timid young driver came creeping down the side of the ravine. The British Staff Sergeant screamed his lungs off trying to get the young private moving but to no avail; the squaddie was scared shitless and just wasn't going to move any faster than a crawl.

You can guess what happened next.

The Bedford eased into the mire and promptly sank to the axles, effectively halting the convoy. Since dawn was fast approaching, it was imperative to get the truck unstuck and moving again. (British convoy commanders got in deep shit with their HQs if they weren't in their "hide" before daylight. After all, we were driving around Germany with simulated nuke warheads.)

Screaming profanities, the Brit NCO ripped the door open, snatched up the private, threw him in the mud, and commenced to kicking him. The poor private (he couldn't have been older than 18) curled up into a fetal postion as the NCO's boots repeatedly struck him.

I was shocked. Being in a different army, I really didn't know what to do. So I stood there and watched as that poor young man got the bejezus kicked out of him. Then the NCO grabbed the shovel from the tool rack on the running board, smacked him a couple of times with it, then threw it at him.

"Get off yer fucking arse and dig this fucking truck out, you bloody wanker!"

The beat-up driver was just picking himself up out of the mud when troops from the following trucks arrived to see what the hold up was. The NCO ordered the unfortunate driver back into the cab and we all fell in behind the truck and started pushing. Tires spinning and mud slinging, we got the truck unstuck and resumed the march. The whole incident ony lasted about 10 minutes.

There is a reason the British army is a bunch of bad-asses.

* For those concerned with comsec, the aforementioned weapons no longer exist thanks to the Intermediate Nuclear Weapons Treaty brokered by the Reagan administration.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 7:04:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kk7sm:

Originally Posted By Taffy223:
There were no gas chambers in the UK

You have a cheek to talk about civility...



I believe that guy is US Military stationed in Deutschland.



I'm an American contractor working for the US military in Germany, work with mainly Americans and at times with our allies.
In my experience, the British are the worst of the lot.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 7:11:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 7:13:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By panzersergeant:


The beat-up driver was just picking himself up out of the mud when troops from the following trucks arrived to see what the hold up was. The NCO ordered the unfortunate driver back into the cab and we all fell in behind the truck and started pushing. Tires spinning and mud slinging, we got the truck unstuck and resumed the march. The whole incident ony lasted about 10 minutes.

There is a reason the British army is a bunch of bad-asses.




Bad-ass, yes- in a short term sense. But what was the real goal here? Punishing a soldier who's probably not used to driving, or getting the material to its site so that it can be used to defend the country?

Wouldn't it have been better to have just everybody get out and push the truck back on to the road? Ten minutes is a lifetime in a war. The whole thing could probably have been taken care of in three minutes without the punishment parade.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 7:13:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 7:17:44 AM EDT by jblachly]

Originally Posted By Taffy223:

Originally Posted By BillSouthCarolina:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Possibly, that's HOW they became the greatest army on earth - by brutal training and weeding out of weaklings. Also, many of their recruits have traditionally been the street toughs from the northern industrial towns, who can take a beating , and others who may have grown up in the dog-eat-dog world of British boarding schools.

British sergeants are essentially particularly mean-spirited gorillas that have been strategically shaved and stuffed into a uniform.


Actually, those descriptions of training don't particularly surprise me. When we occasionally had British regiments in to train with, I was sometimes disturbed by how violent they could get, even just on base and on field exercise. I remember during one joint exercise, a Danish truck driver (male) got raped by some British troops. Another time I saw two corporals holding a private while a sergeant beat the tar out of him for mouthing off (not that the sergeants wouldn't sometimes get physical with our privates in our regiment, but not to the same blatant extent). If a confrontation broke out in the private's rec hall/mess, the broken bottles came out quickly if Brits were involved.

Yup, British soldiers raped a Dutch para UN soldier in Bosnia a couple of years back.
I'm allways surprised that many Americans see the British as a very civil people, most Europeans know better.



There were no gas chambers in the UK

You have a cheek to talk about civility...



Do you honestly think somebody named "BillSouthCarolina" is a German?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 8:11:03 AM EDT
Yep but next time the Sgt says faster the little shit will go faster, I was in the Brit Army for 4yrs. Got taken around the back of the tank hanger many a time, when an NCO in the Brit Army says jump it happens. As far as the homo stuff .... Well we would have killed them, never saw it. Many fond memories of smokers when we called end-ex.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 4:29:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:

Originally Posted By panzersergeant:


The beat-up driver was just picking himself up out of the mud when troops from the following trucks arrived to see what the hold up was. The NCO ordered the unfortunate driver back into the cab and we all fell in behind the truck and started pushing. Tires spinning and mud slinging, we got the truck unstuck and resumed the march. The whole incident ony lasted about 10 minutes.

There is a reason the British army is a bunch of bad-asses.




Bad-ass, yes- in a short term sense. But what was the real goal here? Punishing a soldier who's probably not used to driving, or getting the material to its site so that it can be used to defend the country?

Wouldn't it have been better to have just everybody get out and push the truck back on to the road? Ten minutes is a lifetime in a war. The whole thing could probably have been taken care of in three minutes without the punishment parade.



I don't disagree with you 95thfoot, but the doctrine at the time was to move undercover of darkness to resupply artillery units as quickly as possible anywhere in Northern Germany. Since we operated well behind the front the threat would have came from special forces units and air attack. At every convoy briefing before we set out the commander always emphasized that nothing be allowed to keep us from arriving at our destination in a timely manner. The NCOs were instructed to deal harshly with troops who failed to perform.

Just riding in the convoy was dangerous. The Brit soldiers weren't allowed much sleep during the two-week FTX and there were a lot of accidents because of this. They spent daylight hours digging "shell-scrapes" and defending the perimeter against Royal Marines acting as aggressors, and drove the back roads and forest trails at night resupplying artillery units. I remember one morning at dawn "stand-to" a squad of Royal Marines snuck up to the perimeter and charged the main entrance to the bivouac site. A poor squaddie in a foxhole got kicked in the face so hard he was knocked out by a marine who ran through our position throwing smoke grenades under our vehicles. The private left the area by ambulance. Never did find out how bad he was hurt.

Brutal or not, you couldn't ask for a better ally in wartime.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 4:33:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PluckMaster:
Yep but next time the Sgt says faster the little shit will go faster



Exactly.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 4:51:33 PM EDT
Tales of the Pegasus Marines British Army
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 6:21:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By panzersergeant:

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:

Originally Posted By panzersergeant:


The beat-up driver was just picking himself up out of the mud when troops from the following trucks arrived to see what the hold up was. The NCO ordered the unfortunate driver back into the cab and we all fell in behind the truck and started pushing. Tires spinning and mud slinging, we got the truck unstuck and resumed the march. The whole incident ony lasted about 10 minutes.

There is a reason the British army is a bunch of bad-asses.




Bad-ass, yes- in a short term sense. But what was the real goal here? Punishing a soldier who's probably not used to driving, or getting the material to its site so that it can be used to defend the country?

Wouldn't it have been better to have just everybody get out and push the truck back on to the road? Ten minutes is a lifetime in a war. The whole thing could probably have been taken care of in three minutes without the punishment parade.



I don't disagree with you 95thfoot, but the doctrine at the time was to move undercover of darkness to resupply artillery units as quickly as possible anywhere in Northern Germany. Since we operated well behind the front the threat would have came from special forces units and air attack. At every convoy briefing before we set out the commander always emphasized that nothing be allowed to keep us from arriving at our destination in a timely manner. The NCOs were instructed to deal harshly with troops who failed to perform.

Just riding in the convoy was dangerous. The Brit soldiers weren't allowed much sleep during the two-week FTX and there were a lot of accidents because of this. They spent daylight hours digging "shell-scrapes" and defending the perimeter against Royal Marines acting as aggressors, and drove the back roads and forest trails at night resupplying artillery units. I remember one morning at dawn "stand-to" a squad of Royal Marines snuck up to the perimeter and charged the main entrance to the bivouac site. A poor squaddie in a foxhole got kicked in the face so hard he was knocked out by a marine who ran through our position throwing smoke grenades under our vehicles. The private left the area by ambulance. Never did find out how bad he was hurt.

Brutal or not, you couldn't ask for a better ally in wartime.



Thanks for the clarification- the sgts. are expected to keep the army together by disciplining and directing the men, and in such a case, it sounds like they had to do what they had to do. In short, getting the troops ready for wartime/life-or-death conditions.

As for the second one, absolutely- that's all I've ever heard about the British armed forces.

Still wouldn't want to be on the receiving end though- ouch!
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 2:53:14 AM EDT
Having Served, I can say I am not suprised, British NCO's are usually cruel, callous men who wouldn't survive in the real world.
However, that said, one of the greatest and most motivational leaders I ever met was my Sergeant, so they are not all bad.

Not suprised at all at the goings on in Catterick, the Royal Marines get up to similar stuff, there was even two cases of male rape there. One of the inititation ceremony's was an NCO putting his cock in a recruits mouth.

Fucked up, and glad I left.
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