Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 8/6/2001 1:37:26 PM EDT
I am ignorant about the FAL and H&K model 91 rifles other than they are both fine weapons and shoot a 308 round. They both appear to be similar in design, the FAL is Austrian and the HK 91 German. Are these the same design? If there are any owners of these firearms or anyone knowedgeable of them please share your oppinions of them. Is one superior to the other? Are they solid firearms and do I need one? I have owned a preban Springfield M1A for years and couldn't be more happy with it but there is always room in the safe for another excellent 308.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 2:00:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 2:04:36 PM EDT
The two designs are completely different. FALs are gas operated. Gas is tapped from the barrel and diverted to a piston. This piston acts much in the way of your M1A to unlock and push back the bolt carrier assembly. HK 91, G3, CETMEs use a recoil operated roller locked bolt assembly. The HK MP5 submachinegun uses a smaller version of this. Rollers on the bolt lock into recesses until chamber pressure decrease to a safe level, allowing the rollers to unlock and the bolt to move rearward. Detailed information on either can be found at: [url]www.fnfal.com[/url] and [url]www.hk91.com[/url] Both systems have their pros and cons. Both systems have their supporters. And both systems have their detractors.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 2:10:30 PM EDT
Well, the FAL is gas operated. The HK is delayed-blowback. They are very different mechanically. The FAL is desended from the FN M1948 rifle, while the HK is basically the Spanish CETEME, which evolved from the German WW2 prototype assualt rifle the Stg-45(M). The FAL can be found with forged steel recievers, etc. The HK is made of sheet steel. I always tended to view the HK as more accurate, but recent FALs I've seen tested are as accurate as the HK. I have also tended to view the HK as more reliable, specially in sand and mud. Some of the FALs in service in places like Israel have had problems with reliability. The HK has more kick, in fact it feels to me like a very definite two stage kick. I understand there is a recoil buffer that can fix this. Anything you buy for the HK is real expensive. FAL magazines, however, are quit cheap. The FAL looks nicer, has better balance, and reminds me of the Sealous Scouts and the various small wars between the free world and communist aggression. To put it simply, the FAL gives me a warm feeling just to look at one. So, I'd buy the FAL.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 2:26:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Forest: The FAL is Belgian (FN) not Austrian. The Austrians were licensed to produce a copy they called it the STG58. The HK 91 (G3) was produced because the Belgians (remembering WW2) would not sell them FALs. The Germans then took the CETME design and modified it a bit.
View Quote
Indeed, the Belgians did sell the Germans FALs. I believe these were G-2s. They refused to license them to make their own.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 3:12:09 PM EDT
The Belgians sold 200,000 G1's to Germany. Thousands of these are now coming back into the U.S. in kit form. Actually, they're coming in whole and being chopped in a bonded warehouse. The pictures of a chop saw in action were enough to make anyone ill.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 4:19:17 PM EDT
At first I didn't know squat and in a matter of minutes I'm an expert on these firearms! People talk about the good ol days and returning to a simpler way of life. To hell with it...this is great! Excellent information coming in (and not a single flame)...thanks.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 5:33:21 PM EDT
Here's the scoop as I see it. FAL- designed my M. Dieudonne Saive at FN in Belgium. It's a gas-operated tilting bolt design that is very durable and pleasant to shoot. The mags are wonderfully inexpensive, and a new DS Arms FAL is just as nice (nicer?) than an original FN. It's a hell of a nice rifle, if you get a good one. That means no Century parts guns. Get an original, or a DS Arms. HK91 - I have one. Roller-delayed recoil operated weapon, no gas system and associated headaches. The chamber is longitudinally fluted to ease extraction (otherwise cases can be ripped in half - this system has no primary extraction phase whatsoever. If this seems counter-intuitive, please let me know and I'll go into more detail) This has the effect of marking up the brass with unsightly scorch marks. It still works for reloading, if you can find it, the 91 typically throws its brass 30-40 feet from the port! It's extremely accurate due to its free-floated barrel. Yes, it is free-floated in its standard configuration. Mags and parts are ungodly expensive. Thermold mags work well when you can find them. It does tend to kick the shit out of you in its factory configuration. This can be eased by changing the factory buffer for an MSG-90 buffer and adding the factory rubber buttpad. It's never going to be as pleasant to shoot as the FAL, M14 or AR-10 because of that huge-ass 2 pound bolt carrier beating into the rear of the receiver, but with the above mods it's livable. The clone guns are especially bad in this respect. No one is making a decent clone 91 these days. Avoid Special Weapons like the plague, Centurys ain't much better. Bottom line- I love my 91, and I'd put it up against any FAL for accuracy and reliability but considering costs and such if I were going to buy a new .308 today, I'd get the DS FAL, without a doubt. The price difference between it and a preban 91 would buy you a shitload of mags and a bunch of ammo, with enough for a Thunder Ranch course left over. YMMV. QS
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 5:38:53 PM EDT
About the G designators, there were four: G1: FN FAL G2: A SIG model G3: HK model G4: AR10
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 5:53:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By QuietShootr: Mags and parts are ungodly expensive.
View Quote
Totally inaccurate. You can get a complete G3 parts kit for a bit over $300, and while mags are usually about $30 (which is hardly ungodly expensive) right now a new shipment of G3 mags has come in and the mags are averaging about $15 each.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 6:20:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2001 5:22:43 PM EDT by OSA]
I just got a L1A1 (FAL) on an Imbel metric receiver. Yes it is a made from parts gun that will never have any collector value, but it is a great rifle to fire. I haven't printed it on paper yet, but I have fun knocking over bowling pins at ranges from 25 to 200 yards. After the pins fall, I can still make them jump with the 7.62mm rounds. I just bought an other case of South African 7.62 from Ammoman. I fired 200 rounds yesterday and 100 more today. I also just ordered some used magazines from DSAinc. [url]http://www.dsarms.com/magazines.htm[/url] I ordered 15 of them at $5 each. New magazines are available from J&G sales for under $10 each. IMHO the feel of this rifle is much better than my AR10. The only complaint is that the handguard heats up to fast. Also the action doesn't stay open on the last round. These are just minor things. Maybe when the newness wears off, this rifle might not seem as great as it does now?? I am thinking about buying an other one, maybe a slightly different variation. I am still looking for a FN49 also.
Originally Posted By cnatra:
Originally Posted By OSA: New magazines are available from J&G sales for under $10 each. I am thinking about buying an other one, maybe a slightly different variation. I am still looking for a FN49 also. OSA
View Quote
J&G have a web site ??
View Quote
[url]http://www.shooterstore.com/acb/showprod.cfm?&DID=111&CATID=617&ObjectGroup_ID=1787[/url] OSA
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 6:38:49 PM EDT
Both the FAL and the H&K91 are excelent battle proven battle rifles. I get by with a Match M1 Garand when I need to make 30 caliber holes, but use the AR15's real often. But would I like to have either the rifles you mentioned? Hell Yes! I would probably go for the FAL, real nice shooting. You may find it a bit crude compared to your M1A, but they are very reliable. Maybe after one more AR15, I'll get one of them......
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 9:26:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 9:32:22 PM EDT
I have one of the HK 91 clones and love it. My gun is one of those Century Cetme and it is one accurate rifle. Prices have really dropped and Cetme mags are available from Century for $7.00. My advice is don't listen to word of mouth, try and shoot one of each and make the choice for yourself.
Link Posted: 8/6/2001 9:44:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By OSA: New magazines are available from J&G sales for undeer $10 each. I am thinking about buying an other one, maybe a slightly different variation. I am still looking for a FN49 also. OSA
View Quote
J&G have a web site ??
Link Posted: 8/7/2001 5:24:30 AM EDT
RikWriter- That's true, you can get a parts kit for $300. But it'll be clapped-out Portuguese or other South American surplus that looks like it was dragged behind a truck. Then, you have to spend $400-$700 for someone like Jim at Protech Engineering to clean it up, assemble it, and refinish it for you, and that assumes you can still find a good FMP receiver, which by the way will cost you another $300-400. Soooo, by the time you do that, you could have just bought a DS FAL and had an endless supply of 6.00 mags and a brand new rifle. And if you think what you'll have at the end of that pain in the ass is as good as a factory HK, then you're probably the kind of guy who thinks Colt or Bushmaster ARs are a waste of money, and you'd rather buy an ASA because "it's the same damn rifle!" In which case, nothing I can say to you will make any difference. My apologies in advance if that wasn't what you meant. (Believe me, I'm not down on the HK, I have one.) QS
Link Posted: 8/7/2001 6:03:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QuietShootr: RikWriter- That's true, you can get a parts kit for $300. But it'll be clapped-out Portuguese or other South American surplus that looks like it was dragged behind a truck. Then, you have to spend $400-$700 for someone like Jim at Protech Engineering to clean it up, assemble it, and refinish it for you, and that assumes you can still find a good FMP receiver, which by the way will cost you another $300-400. Soooo, by the time you do that, you could have just bought a DS FAL and had an endless supply of 6.00 mags and a brand new rifle. And if you think what you'll have at the end of that pain in the ass is as good as a factory HK, then you're probably the kind of guy who thinks Colt or Bushmaster ARs are a waste of money, and you'd rather buy an ASA because "it's the same damn rifle!" In which case, nothing I can say to you will make any difference. My apologies in advance if that wasn't what you meant. (Believe me, I'm not down on the HK, I have one.) QS
View Quote
No, I was not referring to having a rifle built from a parts kit...I was responding to the statement that spare parts for the HK91 are incredibly expensive. They aren't...as long as you don't have to have factory HK parts. Magazines are also not that expensive, contrary to the original statement.
Link Posted: 8/7/2001 6:18:58 AM EDT
It is my understanding that .... ...disassembling / reassembling the action of the HK with its roller system is SUICIDE. I KNOW disassembling / reassembling the FAl is childs play.
Link Posted: 8/7/2001 6:39:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/7/2001 6:55:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/7/2001 7:06:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By brouhaha: Garandman, I don't find it difficult at all to take apart a HK91. The only problem comes when the rollers get locked open the first time. After you figure out how to fix that problem, it's super easy everytime...at least for me. Maybe you're just special [;)] brouhaha
View Quote
Its more rumors I've heard from people who own them. Note where I said "It is my understanding that..." I have no personal experience with them.
Link Posted: 8/7/2001 10:56:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2001 10:54:44 AM EDT by drfcolt]
HK-91's are very easy to dis-assemble/re-assemble. About as easy as an AR15. I can break this beast down to parts (bolt out/trigger-pack out/scope off/handgrard off/...) and put it back together in about 5 minutes or less, and I've only done it twice. No tools required. If the lugs get stuck, turn the bolt around, stick it in to recess the lugs, pull it back out, put it back in the right way. Don't know about FAL's, never had one. [url]albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=258760&a=10577068&p=46196521[/url] [url]albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=258760&a=10577068&p=46196520[/url]
Link Posted: 8/7/2001 11:02:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By drfcolt: HK-91's are very easy to dis-assemble/re-assemble. About as easy as an AR15.
View Quote
I guess its like anything else - its easy to do IF you know what you are doing.
Link Posted: 8/7/2001 11:21:55 AM EDT
HK91s are easier to diassemble/reassemble than M1A's, IMHO.
Link Posted: 8/7/2001 12:49:11 PM EDT
AIM Surplus is/was selling HK-91/G3 Steel Mags for $8.00 each if you order ten.
Link Posted: 8/7/2001 1:22:17 PM EDT
Her's my two on this,I think the HK system is superior to that of the FAL and ARs in one major aspect-RELIABILITY!The fact that it has no gas system makes it AK like in functioning in hostile enviroments.I'm not saying the FAL and AR are noot good,because they are.I LOVE my AR-10 and like my STG-58 too,but in a SHTF scenerio I'm grabbing the HK!There are downsides to all firearms produced,I think you would have pick the one that fills in a certain role.Right now my AR-10 is a range weapon,when I'm halping out the in laws on their LARGE farm I take the STG.Like I said... just my 0.02
Link Posted: 8/7/2001 2:01:30 PM EDT
I'd take the HK91 bad recoil? JP muzzle brake expensive addons? atleast it has addons (fal's dont have as many) expensive mags? I seen them go for 7 - 8$ in the US all this with more accuracy and more reliability makes for a great rifle, I'd sell my soul just to legally own one here [:(]
Link Posted: 8/7/2001 4:49:01 PM EDT
Like I said, I'm not down on it...I love mine. It's just that I've seen some parts guns that don't do credit to the design. As far as the recoil goes, the muzzle brake idea doesn't work...because it isn't the gas/bullet that causes it to be so rough, it's the big heavy bolt carrier...and the brake can't do a thing about that. Shoot an HK next to an AR-10 sometime and you'll see what I mean. You do get used to it, though. It's a small price to pay for the reliability you get. The only other drawback I can think of is that the HK gets F-I-L-T-H-Y from the chamber flutes allowing gas to blow back into the receiver area. It doesn't affect reliability at all...but by the time you clean it at the end of a day you're practically getting charcoal briquettes out of the roller recesses in the barrel extension! QS
Link Posted: 8/7/2001 4:56:04 PM EDT
Top Top