If they ban semi autos, there will be more MG's.  Just because, if the penalty for your contraband AR-15 is 10 years, $250K and the penalty for a select-fire M-16 is 10 years, $250K, then all those semis that were 'lost in boating accidents' are going to be converted to FA.  Why not?

Quoted: There has been a question on my mind for a while, and maybe you all can help me. If "assault weapons"' are the choice of terrorist, drug dealers etc. And the main reason for the 86 MG ban was to limit the flow of MGs in private hands. Why don't you hear about bank robbers? Drug dealers etc converting parts kits like the Sten gun to working firearms? I know drug dealers aren’t the brightest bulbs but I can't believe some criminally inclined machinist has thought about making a bunch of stens up for the bad guys...and if drug dealers "really" wanted them like VPC says, why we are not seeing shooting every day with them.

Too much work, and there is no "cool" factor like the nickel-plated .45.

Quoted: One of the reasons I asked the question is......I really want to see an end to the 68 and 86 MG bans, and the only way I see that happening is to change the way the public see private ownership of Class 3 weapons. I know the press and VPC are always going to fight us on this issue, so that leaves us to educate the unwashed masses. One of my ways of doing this is proving that a automatic weapon isn't more a public threat then any other firearm.

I could personally care less about 68 and 86, because we would still have an infringement if they were eliminated. Legally owned class 3 weapons are not used in crimes (if you leave out cops that is)...but the antis could care less. Worrying about what is actually a public threat doesn't matter...

Illegal machine guns are involved in 1% of violent crime. Semi-automatic "assault" weapons are used in less than 10% of crime. Simply put, the criminals who are smart enough to find or build their own machine guns are usually smart enough to realize that they aren't worth the effort.

I'm sure most illegal machine guns are bring-backs from WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc. In fact, I hear a lot of stories about folks finding... "interesting" things in the closet, attic, etc. when a relative who was former military dies. I myself know of one person who found a BAR in his grandpa's closet and a woman who found an M-79 and several 40mm grenades in her father's house when he died.

The rest are do-it-yourself temporary conversions, such as removable lightning links, that various bubbas and hard-core survivalists make for entertainment or just to see if they can actually do it. They go out in the middle of nowhere, install their new part that makes it full-auto, run through a few magazines, and then either destroy or hide the part for "just in case" and never use it again.

I'm not worried about either group. It's the ones who smuggle in guns from China, Mexico, etc. for drug cartels, MS-13, mafia, etc. that worry me.

Quoted: I'm not worried about either group. It's the ones who smuggle in guns from China, Mexico, etc. for drug cartels, MS-13, mafia, etc. that worry me.

If Semis are ever banned, or require registration like class 3, the floodgates will open. If the crime is the same for the real deal or some bastardized semi auto clone, there is no point in owning the bastardized version...

Quoted: Quoted: I'm not worried about either group. It's the ones who smuggle in guns from China, Mexico, etc. for drug cartels, MS-13, mafia, etc. that worry me. If Semis are ever banned, or require registration like class 3, the floodgates will open. If the crime is the same for the real deal or some bastardized semi auto clone, there is no point in owning the bastardized version...

Agreed. If I'm going to be punished for following my rights, I might as well enjoy them to the fullest. And there are LOTS of legal manuals showing how to convert various semi-auto firearms to full-auto floating around out there.

YIKES!!! i'm on a gun board and i'm actually reading arguments FOR the 86 MG ban!!

look guys, arguing that MG's are more dangerous than semis so they should stay banned to keep them out of the hands of potential criminals is exactly why we'll loose our semi-autos too. they are more dangerous than shotguns and bolt-actions.

once the "assault weapons" are "off the streets for good" (read: banned from good people because someone suggested that that's where criminals will steal them from), "sniper rifles" will be next. after all, they can shoot from long ranges from concealment, and nobody really NEEDS that. besides, we wouldn't want people having those because criminals could steal them from good people and use them for bad...

if you ban stuff because a criminal MIGHT steal it and MIGHT use it for harm and the weapon MIGHT be more deadly than others, there won't be a damned thing left.

Quoted: You dont need a machinegun to rob a bank is the short answer.  Most bank jobs dont result in gunplay, and SMGs aren't as concealable as a pistol.  Desperados low on cash and IQ points probably dont have the wherewithal to make them anyway.

Really.. You could most likely get a bag of cash by telling them you had a loaded sponge.

Quoted: Look, I love MG's as much as the next guy.  The fact is that a properly utilized machinegun battery can and will change the outcome of a battle.  Remember the real machine-gun kelly in ww2 and what he did?  The ATF, and every other law enforcement and military organization fears just one proper machine gun falling into the wrong hands.  And they fear this with good reason.  If I had a machine gun would I use it for evil purposes?  Hell no.  You wouldn't either.  Just imagine some lone deputy sheriff heading out to investigate a possible meth lab and run up on a few guys with the know how to run a machine gun the right way.  Neither he, nor the rest of the department would have a chance.  Not all criminals are dumbasses.  I realize that given time all humans make mistakes...as in Bonnie and Clyde.  But that didn't stop Bonnie's BAR from doing its job right until the end.  Anyway, I am a vet and if I had an M249 at my disposal and if I was in a bind and if I was criminal minded it wouldn't be pretty.  Do I think m-16 full autos would make a big impression on the criminal takeover of the free world?  Not likely.  But in releasing small machine guns to the public the big ones get released too which I personally think is a bad idea.  I would love it if we could all have our own true full auto small arms but in reality I don't see it happening.  I wish the world was a respectible place where such ownership would not be hazardous but unfortunately it isn't.  The law abiding citizens are not to blame or not to be faulted in my opinion.  Personally I think crime is due to the piss poor justice system of our country.  Back in the old days if you killed someone you would be hung from the gallows untill dead.  This was done on public display.  Now, you serve a few years in the pen getting fat and happy until perole comes up.  That is the real problem.  Too many liberal tree hugging fags if you ask me.  I hope this post doesn't offend anyone.  If it does then I suggest you change your ways and go to church and become a normal person as God intended. Thanks, Rant off! Wes

You are wrong, wrong, and more wrong. Since the NFA, legally owned and aquired machine guns have been used in only ONE crime, and it was by a police officer of all people. You sound like a freaking anti gunner. It makes me sick that you are one of us yet sound like one of them. You can already own an M249 SAW, M240, M16, UZI, MG42, they just cost a lot of money. Even considering factory prices a modern belt fed is not inexpensive and costs several thousands of dollars. If they continued with new approvals for machine guns following the NFA, I'm pretty positive LITTLE or even NOTHING would change crime wise. There would not be blood in the streets. People that go out and go through the process to aquire an NFA item are not the sorts to do the stupid shit like run a meth lab and take out a SWAT team with a belt fed machine gun like you seem to think. Hard core criminals aren't going to allow that kind of government scrutiny and attention brought down on themselves just to aquire a machine gun (there are MUCH easier ways of getting a stolen or unregistered one for them), and any sane individual that goes through the process isn't going to do a straw purchase on an NFA item unless they are ready to say goodbye to their life and "live off the grid."

Quoted: Quoted: Look, I love MG's as much as the next guy.  The fact is that a properly utilized machinegun battery can and will change the outcome of a battle.  Remember the real machine-gun kelly in ww2 and what he did?  The ATF, and every other law enforcement and military organization fears just one proper machine gun falling into the wrong hands.  And they fear this with good reason.  If I had a machine gun would I use it for evil purposes?  Hell no.  You wouldn't either.  Just imagine some lone deputy sheriff heading out to investigate a possible meth lab and run up on a few guys with the know how to run a machine gun the right way.  Neither he, nor the rest of the department would have a chance.  Not all criminals are dumbasses.  I realize that given time all humans make mistakes...as in Bonnie and Clyde.  But that didn't stop Bonnie's BAR from doing its job right until the end.  Anyway, I am a vet and if I had an M249 at my disposal and if I was in a bind and if I was criminal minded it wouldn't be pretty.  Do I think m-16 full autos would make a big impression on the criminal takeover of the free world?  Not likely.  But in releasing small machine guns to the public the big ones get released too which I personally think is a bad idea.  I would love it if we could all have our own true full auto small arms but in reality I don't see it happening.  I wish the world was a respectible place where such ownership would not be hazardous but unfortunately it isn't.  The law abiding citizens are not to blame or not to be faulted in my opinion.  Personally I think crime is due to the piss poor justice system of our country.  Back in the old days if you killed someone you would be hung from the gallows untill dead.  This was done on public display.  Now, you serve a few years in the pen getting fat and happy until perole comes up.  That is the real problem.  Too many liberal tree hugging fags if you ask me.  I hope this post doesn't offend anyone.  If it does then I suggest you change your ways and go to church and become a normal person as God intended. Thanks, Rant off! Wes You are wrong, wrong, and more wrong. Since the NFA, legally owned and aquired machine guns have been used in only ONE crime, and it was by a police officer of all people. You sound like a freaking anti gunner. It makes me sick that you are one of us yet sound like one of them. You can already own an M249 SAW, M240, M16, UZI, MG42, they just cost a lot of money. Even considering factory prices a modern belt fed is not inexpensive and costs several thousands of dollars. If they continued with new approvals for machine guns following the NFA, I'm pretty positive LITTLE or even NOTHING would change crime wise. There would not be blood in the streets. People that go out and go through the process to aquire an NFA item are not the sorts to do the stupid shit like run a meth lab and take out a SWAT team with a belt fed machine gun like you seem to think. Hard core criminals aren't going to allow that kind of government scrutiny and attention brought down on themselves just to aquire a machine gun (there are MUCH easier ways of getting a stolen or unregistered one for them), and any sane individual that goes through the process isn't going to do a straw purchase on an NFA item unless they are ready to say goodbye to their life and "live off the grid."

yeah, it's sad to see that a lot of "gun people" have bought up as much of the anti-gun propaganda as have non-gun folk.

MG's were much more available in times past. there were NOT constant shoot-outs with RPD's and M60's. didn't happen.

had the AWB been extended, this same argument would be taking place 20 years from now about semi-autos instead.

poster1: i think we should get the AWB repealed.

poster2: look, i would love to have an AR15, but we can't just start selling them again. criminals will get them and they'll shoot up the whole damned place. we just can't start making more dangerous weaponry available to people. blood will run in the streets...

Quoted: Quoted: Wrong it is the public opinion that is most important......why do you think Brady and the media put out so much BS about 50cals,"assault rifles", "sniper rifles,A/P ammo etc. Brady/VPC is nothing more then a advertising agency selling a product.....which in this case is gun control. I see your point but think of this; with 70,000 members on this board alone contributing just $20.00 each, don't you believe that could get us started toward our goal of repealing the '86 ban? $1,400,000 could buy a lot of advertising plus a descent lawyer. Now ask yourself could the members of this board come to an agreement to even get something like that started. The answer is probably no. And unless we can first unite in some sort of way and fight it together, then we won't get anything.

I agree with that part...and yes I also believe that us gun owners could use some of that old time religion. But improving the publics view of owning class 3 stuff will do wonders and speed up the reversal of gun laws. Example chopper style motorcycles...back when I first got into Harleys [1980s] riding a Harley chopper meant you where a drug dealing, old lady raping scumbag...and in 20 yrs custom choppers are now ridden by upper class yuppies and looked at like artwork.

Quoted: There has been a question on my mind for a while, and maybe you all can help me. If "assault weapons"' are the choice of terrorist, drug dealers etc. And the main reason for the 86 MG ban was to limit the flow of MGs in private hands. Why don't you hear about bank robbers? Drug dealers etc converting parts kits like the Sten gun to working firearms? I know drug dealers aren’t the brightest bulbs but I can't believe some criminally inclined machinist has thought about making a bunch of stens up for the bad guys...and if drug dealers "really" wanted them like VPC says, why we are not seeing shooting every day with them.

Gun laws are ONLY meant to limit the rights of the law abiding. The whole "Stop Crime" or "For the kids" lines are just BS to make them acceptable to the masses.

THE GOAL of anti gun groups and politicians is to eliminate private firearm ownership COMPLETELY. There are many quotes by these people saying just this, but it will never hit CNN. They can not do it all at once there would be a civil war. They HAVE to do it a little at a time. MG's and Semi AUTOs scare the crap out of statists.

Quoted: Gun laws are ONLY meant to limit the rights of the law abiding. The whole "Stop Crime" or "For the kids" lines are just BS to make them acceptable to the masses. THE GOAL of anti gun groups and politicians is to eliminate private firearm ownership COMPLETELY. There are many quotes by these people saying just this, but it will never hit CNN. They can not do it all at once there would be a civil war. They HAVE to do it a little at a time. MG's and Semi AUTOs scare the crap out of statists.

Yep the anti gunners go after MG's, 50's, the 5.7 and semi auto's because they are not mainstream and they are easier to demonizie. Brady Co doesn't really think terrorists are going to shoot down aircraft with 50 cal rifles...but because the amount of people who own them is smaller than say Remington 700s and there for most people don't really know much about them. Lets face it...if 50 cal was the best anti aircraft round why are most anti aircraft weapons 20mm and bigger.  

Quoted: Look, I love MG's as much as the next guy.  The fact is that a properly utilized machinegun battery can and will change the outcome of a battle.  Remember the real machine-gun kelly in ww2 and what he did?  The ATF, and every other law enforcement and military organization fears just one proper machine gun falling into the wrong hands.  And they fear this with good reason.  If I had a machine gun would I use it for evil purposes?  Hell no.  You wouldn't either.  Just imagine some lone deputy sheriff heading out to investigate a possible meth lab and run up on a few guys with the know how to run a machine gun the right way.  Neither he, nor the rest of the department would have a chance.  Not all criminals are dumbasses.  I realize that given time all humans make mistakes...as in Bonnie and Clyde.  But that didn't stop Bonnie's BAR from doing its job right until the end.  Anyway, I am a vet and if I had an M249 at my disposal and if I was in a bind and if I was criminal minded it wouldn't be pretty.  Do I think m-16 full autos would make a big impression on the criminal takeover of the free world?  Not likely.  But in releasing small machine guns to the public the big ones get released too which I personally think is a bad idea.  I would love it if we could all have our own true full auto small arms but in reality I don't see it happening.  I wish the world was a respectible place where such ownership would not be hazardous but unfortunately it isn't.  The law abiding citizens are not to blame or not to be faulted in my opinion.  Personally I think crime is due to the piss poor justice system of our country.  Back in the old days if you killed someone you would be hung from the gallows untill dead.  This was done on public display.  Now, you serve a few years in the pen getting fat and happy until perole comes up.  That is the real problem.  Too many liberal tree hugging fags if you ask me.  I hope this post doesn't offend anyone.  If it does then I suggest you change your ways and go to church and become a normal person as God intended. Thanks, Rant off! Wes

I'm not buying that a MG in criminal hands is a grave threat to the fabric of society. Everything I've read about tactics says that full-auto fire was never meant for direct engagement of bad guys. It's supposed to be suppressive fire to keep the other guys down while the rest of your squad manuvers around to kill them with aimed fire. Not that MG fire is harmless, but by it's nature it's unaimed and less effective then aimed semi-auto fire.

Criminals have access to full-auto weapons now. I'll bet they have at least as much access as law-abiding citizens who do still have full-auto guns. If they're so effective, how come no meth lab has ever set up a machine gunner like you describe? The only criminals with MGs I've read about are idiots who don't manage to kill anybody, but usually get killed promptly by the police.

I don't see any increase in the threat of criminal activity from making it easier for law-abiding citizens to get machine guns.

You don't see it often because bank robbers and your common criminal usual just want to take the money and run.  You can do that with any gun.  The smaller and easier to conceal the gun the less conspicuous you are.  Only time you see use of full auto weapons is when the guy intends to shoot it out with the cops regardless of the outcome.  In the end they may take a few cops with them, but ultimately they lose.  Most crooks would prefer to just run away and live to steal and rob another day.

I doubt many crooks use machine guns for several reasons. For one, like others have said in this thread, they are bulky and heavy.  Most criminals would rather just use a pistol.  Another reason is that I suspect they are hard to get.  Yes, I'm sure that if they put their mind to it, small cheaper subguns like macs and uzis can probably found on the street.  I'm sure that there are a few AKs that have been smuggled into the US illegally too.  But think about it, where would a criminal get an illegal beltfed or high dollar machine gun?  I really highly doubt that there are many if any illegal M240s, M249s, M60s and stuff like that floating around in the US. For one, those guns aren't sold new to anyone but militaries around the world. I'm sure some have been captured in places around the world, but it doesn't seem feasable to me that they would be smuggled into this country and used in a crime.  I guess I could see some soviet stuff like RPDs, etc. that got loose in some third world country somehow work its way back into the states.  I think alot of what people see in the movies with crimnals using high dollar machine guns is just hollywood BS.  

SSDD.  

The only people who care about gun laws are law abiding people.  

Criminals with enough know how to either obtain or convert firearms to full-auto typically don't knock over liquor stores with  "born to lose" tattoed on their forehead.  

Professional criminals will do what the mission requires, and if they need full-auto, they will have it, regardless of any law.  

Make no mistake, gun laws are about control of law abiding citizens by the government, not about controlling crime.  

Once you absorb that little tidbit, you will start understanding a whole lot more about why things are in this country.  

Quoted: All true about the effectiveness of a machine gun in trained hands!! And a semi-auto assault weapon (AR, AK, HK, FAL etc) with a high-capacity magazine and spare mags, is nearly as deadly in trained hands as well.

What is a "semi-auto assault weapon"?  There is no such thing.

Quoted: Quoted: However, at the same time I don't believe that the government should be able to possess the means to outgun or be able to suppress the rights of the citizens with overwhelming firepower!  Does any of this make sense?  Someone tell me please! Wes Well you are a little late there. We aren't allowed to own the big stuff our military has. A civil war or any large uprising would be shut down pretty quick by the US military. Even the few guys that have belt feds and heavy weapons wouldn't have a chance against tanks and attack choppers. Sure there are some guys that have old tanks and APC's but no rounds for them. Face it, if our government decided to take arms against the people or the country was thrown into chaos, WE DONT STAND A CHANCE AGAINST OUR GOVERNMENT. Not unless some military units with tanks, choppers, aircraft, arty, etc, decided to join "our" side or what have you. It's a joke to think that average civilians with semi-auto rifles of any caliber (or even machine guns) pose a thread against a coordinated and advanced military such as ours. It's almost as pathetic as the croats defending themselves against the serb military in the balkan wars. - rem

your assuming it would be a convential war. when it does eventaly come to pass its only a matter of time just how much time it will be a bloody gurrila war,

With regard to public opinion, most people thought the 94 AWB was about automatic weapons, and that when it sunset, automatic weapons would be available again.  So getting the 86 ban repealed isn't really a matter of public opinion.  It is a matter of getting enough gun advocates to push for it to happen.

Quoted: With regard to public opinion, most people thought the 94 AWB was about automatic weapons, and that when it sunset, automatic weapons would be available again.  So getting the 86 ban repealed isn't really a matter of public opinion.  It is a matter of getting enough gun advocates to push for it to happen.

True enuff.....but post a poll on this board on the repeal of the 86 and you'd get alest 90% support. Then go to a non gun board and try the same poll. why because the majority of people in this country [including fellow gun owners] think that a mp-15 or and M16 is some how a death ray that joe public shouldn't be allowed to own.

This folks is what Brady puts out.....[sorry jrzy]

www.nramadness.com/nra.html


no facts....but alots imagnary and glizzy...standard AD biz BS...all of it designed to sell the idea to uninformed public of the evils of "assault rifles and the NRA. They will do all of this and worse WHEN they get a Dem in the White House. And because our elected monkeys won't want to be the Senator that "put death machine that fire a million rounds a second" back on the streets. They won't support any real effort to repeal the 86. So what has to be done is grow support and education to counter all the BS that Brady is going to pump out to the media.

magnum99 said:
Criminals with enough know how to either obtain or convert firearms to full-auto typically don't knock over liquor stores with "born to lose" tattoed on their forehead.

Professional criminals will do what the mission requires, and if they need full-auto, they will have it, regardless of any law.


Exactly.  As a friend of mine said everytime we drove past the SC state prison, "ha, ha, the smart criminals don't get caught."

I tend to think that a lot more machine guns get used in the commision of crimes than we are aware of.  But these guys are planning their robbery/kidnapping/industrial-spying etc so that interaction with the public or law enforcement is minimized.  So they don't have to flash, much less fire, the MG.  

As others have pointed out, your average crack 'ho or bo does not have the smarts to machine (or even look up in SGN) a lightning link.

I really want a thompson ...and an MP5......and an M60E4.


But alas, not in this lifetime.

Quoted: Quoted: Tactics my friend.  Tactics. I can think of a few ways that would have them scratching their heads. Think like an insurgent. I highly doubt any sort of rebellion or insurgency would last in America unless the country were literally divided and both sides had access to modern military weapons. There is no way that civilians could openly face the US government and the type of arms it has immediately at it's disposal. Citizens are for the most part untrained, slow and uncoordinated. Think the internet is going to be running to provide a way to organize? Think your cell phones are going to be working? Think again, all that shit is going to be shut down. You're going to need to rely on radios and ham skills. It's going to be extremely difficult to get everyone together and plan a defense or attack. People in Iraq and other parts of the world have been fighting for decades. 80% of america are fat lazy idiots who are either going to bow down or die quickly. The other 20% are going to be the military and government who you are going to end up fighting. ETA: When talking about America as a whole and thinking about what would happen if there were some sort of uprising or conflict on our soil that caused some to go against the government or vice versa, you have to take into the account the makeup of society in general. Most of America has been babied into complacency and would do anything to keep their sofas and tv's. Then you have to take into account the numbers of children, women, elderly, poor, illegals, etc. I'd bet there are very that would fight no matter what the issue. America is the perfect country to slowly change into some police state with no rights as people have slowly been brainwashed into loving their stuff more than their actual rights. Kids and people nowadays know less and care less about anything. - rem

That's not what I mean.  Think like an insurgent.  Look at the strengths of the enemy.  Look at the weaknesses.  Take into account what they are willing to do, and what they aren't willing to do.  The military is powerfull, yes, but that is tempered by what they won't do.  Figure out what your goals would be, and the enemies goals.

Obviously, open warfare is not going to work.  Charging a military force across open terrain would get you totally destroyed.  Goals not met.  Is a government military going to use tanks, artillery and air strikes in a populated city?  Highly doubtful.  Use this to your advantage.  This ain't the civil war.  Hit and fade.  Never pick a fight you can't win.

Learn from the insurgents in Iraq, leaving out the beheadings and wanton slaughter of non-combatants.
Watch "Red Dawn".  I'm serious.  

Do things that will cause the enemy to do things that will make them lose public support.  Make them screw up strategically.  Think "Boston Massacre".

Think guerilla war of attrition, not military campaign to hold more ground.  There's no ground to hold, only enemies to eliminate.

Shit, that's probably gonna get me put on some "list".