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Posted: 1/3/2006 6:50:45 PM EDT
So I used to be quite the wolf apologist. Thought it was great plinking ammo after I went through half a case. Even got decent accuracy with it. But I think what happened today changed my view.

I was out plinking with a buddy, and halfway though a mag I get a jam. The first jam I have ever gotten with my AR after thousands of rounds, a good many of which were wolf. At first glance it looked like your tipical FTE. So I dropped the mag, closed the bolt and hit the forward assisted. I tried racking the charging handle but the case was pretty well stuck. eventually I managed to pull the rim of the case, which ment I was out of commisson till I got home to a cleaning rod.

Well I got home, knocked out the case. Upon further inspection it was evident that there was a pressure spike. the primer was much more bown out and flattened then normal. And there was so much pressure on the case that there was carbon caked on it from the inside of the chamber. When I disasembled the bolt I noticed a hairline crack on the left side of the hole for the cam pin.


The pic isnt as big as I would like, but you can see the crack along where the cam pin goes


again, not as big as I would have hoped, but you can clearly see the primer of the case on the right is signifantly larger and more "flattened", than a normal case on the right.

Having said this, I will still probably shoot wolf considering im a poor college kid, but I wouldnt trust my life on it. A situation like this in the middle of a firefight is not a good thing. Save your pennies and stock up on the good stuff for HD or SHTF.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 6:51:45 PM EDT
ANY brand can cause issues. Cheap or expensive.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 6:53:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 6:54:27 PM EDT by 50cal]
If it runs on gunpowder, you can expect these things to happen. Rounds are loaded on a mechanical device run by humans. Shit happens.

Damn I can't spell tonight.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 6:55:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 6:56:20 PM EDT by gmtmaster]

Originally Posted By 50cal:
If it runs on gunpowder, you can expect these things to happen. Rounds are loaded on a mechanical device run by humans. Shit happens.

Damn I can't spell tonight.



Yep.. Can happen with any round... I had an over charged 10mm the other day that did a job on my Witness..
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 6:55:47 PM EDT
I would probably not contibute the full responsability of the cracked bolt to the Wolf ammo.

Many other bolts have cracked in the same place using other ammo. I would just just say that you got unlucky and got a bad/weak bolt.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:05:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 7:05:42 PM EDT by Brian_in_Pullman]
But how much money have you saved using wolf compared to some other ammo? Probably enough to buy a new bolt. Out of curiosity what brand of bolt is it and was it magnetic particle inspected?

Edited for typo.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:13:22 PM EDT
Nobody enjoys that but I have seen several cases of Federal, XM193, S&B, all do some pretty wicked stuff to a rifle. Thats just in the couple of years I've been here. You got struck by lightning, there isn't a Wolf ammo crisis.

See if you can send them the bolt and the case, they may well step up and pay to replace it.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:17:35 PM EDT
w/e you put cheap ammo in and bitch about it? I have had dead primers on winchester, fail to extract with other russian ammo and ripped the rim off of some NATO stuff. ANY ammo can have issues.

Wolf new ploycoat is the only ammo i have had no problems with.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:19:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SFR:

Wolf new ploycoat is the only ammo i have had no problems with.



Yet.... Im sure it will in time like everything else.

I still wanna try some of it.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:22:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:23:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FieroLoki:

Originally Posted By SFR:

Wolf new ploycoat is the only ammo i have had no problems with.



Yet.... Im sure it will in time like everything else.

I still wanna try some of it.



Very vaild point , anything can, but i wont bitch about it when it does happen, since i know i paid a minimum price for it.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:24:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BuckeyeRifleman:
eventually I managed to pull the rim of the case, which ment I was out of commisson till I got home to a cleaning rod.




That is why I always take a cleaning rod to the range...but in your case, you would have needed a spare bolt, which ain't a bad idea...
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:27:41 PM EDT
I was under the impression that 5.56/.223 was virtually impossible to "overcharge" UNLESS you use the wrong type of powder. I have pulled some bullets out of damaged live rounds and the powder was basically up to the base of the bullet.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:29:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:29:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
i10.photobucket.com/albums/a150/fight4yourrights/Misc/bolt.jpg



I've said it a thousand times before and I'll say it again today. I have no problems with running Wolf through my AK's but I will never shoot steel cased ammo out of my AR's.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:30:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:31:23 PM EDT
I'm not knocking you , but I've flattened primes like that , no sweat . It didnt even pierce the primer or blow it out ....? Of course I guess I couldnt say w/ "hard Russian" primers . NO bulges in the barrel are there ?
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:35:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 7:37:41 PM EDT by Rocklock]
What brand rifle ?

ETA , Where's the torn off rim ?

I would be really surprised if that cartridge alone did that .
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:35:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 7:36:48 PM EDT by DnPRK]
Why do so many people continue to make excuses for Wolf? It is crap ammo with no consistency. I have taken 2 boxes of Wolf apart and measured the components. Bullets varied in weight by 1.5 grains, powder varied by 2 grains and case capacity varied by 2 grains of water. With such inconsistency, you can never expect it to be more than "coke can at 10 paces" accurate. The only ammo that was worse was the old Norinco M193 from 20 years ago.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:37:10 PM EDT
Not necessarily too much -- I remember there being a problem with ammo that wasn't loaded with enough powder and the ensuing air-pocket, when it was in the right place (at the flash port), would result is massively higher chamber pressures.

Oh well, I guess that's all trivial...

After shooting many thousands of rounds of the stuff, I've never had a single problem that was attributed to the ammo itself; every problem I've ever had was on the weapon end.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:38:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rocklock:
I'm not knocking you , but I've flattened primes like that , no sweat . It didnt even pierce the primer or blow it out ....? Of course I guess I couldnt say w/ "hard Russian" primers . NO bulges in the barrel are there ?



No bulges, the bolt was CMT
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:39:22 PM EDT
Thanks
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:42:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 7:43:39 PM EDT by BuckeyeRifleman]

Originally Posted By Rocklock:
What brand rifle ?

ETA , Where's the torn off rim ?

I would be really surprised if that cartridge alone did that .



It was homebuilt, upper came assembled from a very reputable dealer on ARFCOM. CMT bolt and bolt carrier. 16in 4150 1/7 M4 barrel. CMT Lower parts, stag lower, CMT 6 pos buttstock

ETA the rim wasnt really torn off completely, just pulled and bent so much the extractor no longer held. That only happened after a little too much muscle from me.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 10:41:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By phatmax:
I was under the impression that 5.56/.223 was virtually impossible to "overcharge" UNLESS you use the wrong type of powder. I have pulled some bullets out of damaged live rounds and the powder was basically up to the base of the bullet.



Your right. The case on 5.56 is full with a correct load. My nephew got some bad bricks of Winchester 22 and I contacted Winchester. They wanted them all back to see what was wrong. I would call up somebody with Wolf Ammo because I imagine they would want the case back and the bolt. Winchester gave my nephew 100 dollars in coupons for Winchester products for the one partial brick of .22 ammo we sent back to them.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 10:55:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DnPRK:
Why do so many people continue to make excuses for Wolf? It is crap ammo with no consistency. I have taken 2 boxes of Wolf apart and measured the components. Bullets varied in weight by 1.5 grains, powder varied by 2 grains and case capacity varied by 2 grains of water. With such inconsistency, you can never expect it to be more than "coke can at 10 paces" accurate. The only ammo that was worse was the old Norinco M193 from 20 years ago.



5000+ rounds with 2 FTEs out of my Bushy. I don't have to make excuses for it, I know it works for my purposes.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 11:01:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DnPRK:
Why do so many people continue to make excuses for Wolf? It is crap ammo with no consistency. I have taken 2 boxes of Wolf apart and measured the components. Bullets varied in weight by 1.5 grains, powder varied by 2 grains and case capacity varied by 2 grains of water. With such inconsistency, you can never expect it to be more than "coke can at 10 paces" accurate. The only ammo that was worse was the old Norinco M193 from 20 years ago.



It does the job just the same as Winchester white box. You are only fooling yourself. You are in the minority. Shoot what you want and quit your crying. Let others be satisfied with good ammo that shoots fine. If you cant hit a Coke can at more than 10 paces with Wolf you should turn in ALL your guns at the next police buy back. Be sure to tell them you are turning them in due to incompetence and you feel you might hurt yourself.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 11:56:17 PM EDT
Oh how easy it is to "Just blame Wolf".

It's getting as old and tired as the "It's Bush's Fault" line the lefties sling.

That damage can occur with any ammo. Matter of fact, if you look at many of the threads in the ammo forum you'd see that most complain about Wolf being "UNDER POWERED" for .223 ammo.

A simple fact of life in the gun world is that "Guns that are used break parts"....all kinds of parts and if you shoot yours, it'll break parts too, sooner or later. Just like any machine that sees use, parts wear, parts break and need to be replaced.

Even tanks and artillery pieces as heavily constructed as they are break parts and need repair.

It's a rifle....stop your fucking whining and buy a new bolt for Christs sake, and stop blaming Wolf for your problems.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 12:08:46 AM EDT
Everyone's mileage may vary, all brands can have a bad round, and parts break. I shot many thousands of rounds of Wolf, much of it in my M16 without problem, even winning a statewide CQB competition with it. Good enough to easily hit Tannerite bottles at 100 yards out of my 11.5" barrel, maybe my guns just like that particular load.

I know it's not the most consistantly loaded cartidge, but that's why I don't have to pay much for it. I know I am getting quantity over quality. I'll be running through another 5-10 cases of it through about 2 months this summer. With the money I have saved on Wolf so far, I could have bought 2 or 3 more AR-15's.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 12:28:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 4:53:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 4:54:49 AM EDT by TacticalStrat]
From the ammunition section here at AR15.Com. Here's a poll taken from thousands of people on all kinds of 5.56mm ammo.



Ammo Poll

Link Posted: 1/4/2006 5:05:53 AM EDT
I use Wolf, love it. Wont shoot it in my precision upper but for the Bushie M4 its good to go.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 6:13:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By REDHORSE:
I would probably not contibute the full responsability of the cracked bolt to the Wolf ammo.

Many other bolts have cracked in the same place using other ammo. I would just just say that you got unlucky and got a bad/weak bolt.



+1

It aint Wolf's fault
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 6:23:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FatCobra:

Originally Posted By DnPRK:
Why do so many people continue to make excuses for Wolf? It is crap ammo with no consistency. I have taken 2 boxes of Wolf apart and measured the components. Bullets varied in weight by 1.5 grains, powder varied by 2 grains and case capacity varied by 2 grains of water. With such inconsistency, you can never expect it to be more than "coke can at 10 paces" accurate. The only ammo that was worse was the old Norinco M193 from 20 years ago.



It does the job just the same as Winchester white box. You are only fooling yourself. You are in the minority. Shoot what you want and quit your crying. Let others be satisfied with good ammo that shoots fine. If you cant hit a Coke can at more than 10 paces with Wolf you should turn in ALL your guns at the next police buy back. Be sure to tell them you are turning them in due to incompetence and you feel you might hurt yourself.



+1.

Pull down some WWB sometime. Or even a mixed lot of milsurp. Anything sold as bargain ammunition that gets loaded in any quantity on machines is going to suffer these issues.

And that being said, I wouldn't jump to villify Wolf in this case. I had a piece of Lake City KB in my first AR. I still buy it in loose, mixed lots, and shoot the hell out of it. And i've in person, and on this board, seen many other types of ammo, many of them 'good ol American good stuff' KB in some fashion in one gun or another. Like someone else said. You play the game long enough, you begin to narrow your odds.

My bet is on faulty bolt.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 7:07:33 AM EDT
I'd agree with everyone else that any reasonably cheap brand can have an occasional bad round. Wolf it still perfectly good for plinking and practice. I wouldn't use it for defense, though, because of bullet design. I'd rather have full-power ammo with fragmenting or at least expanding bullets for self-defense.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 10:32:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 10:32:36 AM EDT by Rocklock]
Have you thought maybe George Bush did it ?
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 4:29:44 AM EDT
And I thought WOLF would only break extractors!

When I was out teaching at FLETC last year, the Navy was out there training up for Iraq. They were going through cases of Winchester 5.56 frangible. I saw two broken bolts pulled from the line. One cracked like the bolt pictured here and the other lost a locking lug. The rangemaster told me he had seen several others break as well.

Why do you think Tango Down makes a grip assembly that'll hold a spare bolt?

Link Posted: 1/6/2006 7:17:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Melvin_Johnson:
And I thought WOLF would only break extractors!

When I was out teaching at FLETC last year, the Navy was out there training up for Iraq. They were going through cases of Winchester 5.56 frangible. I saw two broken bolts pulled from the line. One cracked like the bolt pictured here and the other lost a locking lug. The rangemaster told me he had seen several others break as well.

Why do you think Tango Down makes a grip assembly that'll hold a spare bolt?




I'm hoping this year that TD will come out with a grip assembly that will hold an extra case of Wolf.

I bet you could probably buy another bolt or two for the amount of money you saved on that case.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 7:35:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By phatmax:
I was under the impression that 5.56/.223 was virtually impossible to "overcharge" UNLESS you use the wrong type of powder. I have pulled some bullets out of damaged live rounds and the powder was basically up to the base of the bullet.



That way of thinking my friend will get you into a heap of trouble if you ever decide to get into the reloading arena, there are many powders suitable for the .223/556 and an over charge with some ball powders by even 1.5grn will cause a case rupture,blown primer,or worse. I think I have seen them all.
Just a word of caution.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 5:58:52 AM EDT

That way of thinking my friend will get you into a heap of trouble if you ever decide to get into the reloading arena, there are many powders suitable for the .223/556 and an over charge with some ball powders by even 1.5grn will cause a case rupture,blown primer,or worse. I think I have seen them all.
Just a word of caution.



I've seen a blown AR due to a case head seperation. The magazine was blown apart and the extractor was bent away from the bolt and into the barrel extenstion. We had to pry the gun apart with a screwdriver. When a cartridge case blows, there's nowhere for 50,000 CUP to do but down and out the magazine well. I don't think the bolt pictured above was broken due to a round with excessive chamber pressure since there are no signs of case seperation or pierced primer, etc.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 6:40:11 AM EDT
I re-read your original post, and you make no mention of the last shot that jammed feeling or sounding any different from any others. Machine loaded ammo tends to be very consistent, and I'd be EXTREMELY surprised by the fact that this case would have been double-charged and none of the others from that lot were. Double charging in rifle cases is very difficult, as the case is usually mostly full of powder already.

So we have a normal shot just like any other, but you have a bolt failure. The primer is flattened showing an overpressure situation. Tweak might be able to chime in on this, but it's conceivable that the overpressure occured BECAUSE the bolt was cracked before that shot.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 2:54:39 PM EDT
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