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Posted: 1/3/2006 4:44:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2006 6:43:23 AM EDT by motown_steve]
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Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:46:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
In particular, who has fired an AR-15 indoors, without hearing protection? I would especially like to hear from those of you who are defensive experts and feel that pistols or pistol caliber carbines are toys.

Let me give you a hypothetical scenario...

It's 2:37 a.m. when your wife starts shaking you saying that she heard something downstairs. You grab your AR and head down stairs to investigate. As you go, you listen intently to see if you can hear the noise again. The house is very dark, so you click on your gun light. All of the sudden you see a man standing in the kitchen with a gun in his hand. You quickly point the rifle and pull the trigger. The gun goes off with an intense flash and a deafening bang. How many follow up shots do you think you'll be able to make?



As many as it takes.....screw my ears, if the guy has a gun he's gotta get some
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:47:16 PM EDT
in a senario like you describe, you won't even notice the noise
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:48:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheTracker:
in a senario like you describe, you won't even notice the noise



+1

Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:49:11 PM EDT
You won't even notice the noise.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:49:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By TheTracker:
in a senario like you describe, you won't even notice the noise



+1




This is correct, as proven by many, many reports from those that have been there, done that.

Worries about "noise" are silly.

Your life is at stake.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:50:48 PM EDT
I've done my fair share of hunting. Once, had to quickly bring my 7 mag into play to deal with an animal that a young hunter in our group wounded and which was promptly running straight away from us. I fired two shots in rapid successon before bringing the animal down, and didn't even notice the sound of my otherwise extremely loud rifle. My ears hurt later, mind you. But while the shit was hitting the fan, I didn't notice it.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:50:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 4:52:06 PM EDT by justthefacts]
Shoot to KILL... it is within your rights to protect yourself,family and belongings.

Said person has NO RIGHTS being in YOUR house and by being in YOUR house he is a hostile intruder intent on killing you with said GUN.

LEOS what say Ye?

Oh... just to add.... as stated.. noise will not be on your mind nor be an issue.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:50:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By TheTracker:
in a senario like you describe, you won't even notice the noise



+1





I think I bring the total up to +5

Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:54:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
In particular, who has fired an AR-15 indoors, without hearing protection? I would especially like to hear from those of you who are defensive experts and feel that pistols or pistol caliber carbines are toys.

Let me give you a hypothetical scenario...

It's 2:37 a.m. when your wife starts shaking you saying that she heard something downstairs. You grab your AR and head down stairs to investigate. As you go, you listen intently to see if you can hear the noise again. The house is very dark, so you click on your gun light. All of the sudden you see a man standing in the kitchen with a gun in his hand. You quickly point the rifle and pull the trigger. The gun goes off with an intense flash and a deafening bang. How many follow up shots do you think you'll be able to make?



Not a rifle, but I have fired a 12 bore shotgun indoors without hearing protection on two occasions. Did not notice the blast at the time, follow up shots would have been easy.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:04:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 5:06:39 PM EDT by motown_steve]

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By TheTracker:
in a senario like you describe, you won't even notice the noise



+1




This is correct, as proven by many, many reports from those that have been there, done that.

Worries about "noise" are silly.

Your life is at stake.



Then why do tactical teams use flash/bang grenades to incapacitate people who are held up in a house?

You refer to reports. Have you ever fired a rifle indoors without hearig protection? I have. I got to talking with someone at the range (on a slow day, just me and another guy where there) and I took off my hearing protection. After we finished chatting I sat back down and without thinking about my ears, aimed and fired a shot from my Bushmaster. The next thing I remember, I was sitting on my butt in a daze holding my rifle realizing wondering what just happened.

You may think that worries about noise are silly now, but will you think that they are silly when you are sitting on the fllor next to your couch having your rifle tugged away from you by the burglar who came in with the guy you just shot?
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:06:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheTracker:
in a senario like you describe, you won't even notice the noise



In my experience with a .45 ACP, you won't hear it. Something like three shots from a 3.5" .45ACP and didn't hear a thing. You'll have tunnel vision like you won't believe and time will run at the speed of frozen molasses. You'll be able to see the individual powder particles spiral out in their own pattern as you're frozen in a Star Trekish slow motion dimension hell of trying to out run the bad guy but you're frozen in place. You're going to do everything just as you practiced, right/wrong/indifferent live or die since that is all that you can do.

Welcome to the club of the survivors.

wganz

Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:07:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CavVet:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By TheTracker:
in a senario like you describe, you won't even notice the noise



+1





I think I bring the total up to +5




Have any of you fired an AR-15 in a dark room without hearing protection?
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:08:28 PM EDT
so then what's your suggested solution? buy electronic hearing protection, use a pistol-caliber AR, get a can, something else?
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:09:07 PM EDT
+1
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:09:27 PM EDT
I've fired a few thousand .50 BMG rounds indoors. Using double hearing protection it still is pretty annoying.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:10:15 PM EDT
Thats why you do a double tap. if one will do it two will do it even better
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:10:56 PM EDT
If your adrenaline is flowing, it won't have a severe effect on you, but under a situation like yours, it's not a good idea.

It's kind of like when you get in a fight. You can break your hand, yet still fight with it just fine, but if you broke it on accident at work, you'd be rushing out of work to the hospital in severe pain.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:11:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By TheTracker:
in a senario like you describe, you won't even notice the noise



+1




This is correct, as proven by many, many reports from those that have been there, done that.

Worries about "noise" are silly.

Your life is at stake.



Then why do tactical teams use flash/bang grenades to incapacitate people who are held up in a house?

You refer to reports. Have you ever fired a rifle indoors without hearig protection? I have. I got to talking with someone at the range (on a slow day, just me and another guy where there) and I took off my hearing protection. After we finished chatting I sat back down and without thinking about my ears, aimed and fired a shot from my Bushmaster. The next thing I remember, I was sitting on my butt in a daze holding my rifle realizing wondering what just happened.

You may think that worries about noise are silly now, but will you think that they are silly when you are sitting on the fllor next to your couch having your rifle tugged away from you by the burglar who came in with the guy you just shot?



Because SWAT dynamic entry KNOWS they are going into
SHTF.
The targets of flashbangs are usually asleep, drunk or stoned.
They have their thoughts on other things.
They usually are very disoriented after a flashbang goes off in their
livingroom or bedroom 3 feet away from them.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:11:25 PM EDT
WHAT?

I really think a suppressor should be used indoors. Best to not wake the kiddies and neighbors.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:11:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:13:27 PM EDT
Do you mean on purpose? I can tell ya its VERY loud when the muzzel is next to your ear indoors w/o hearing protection but the ringing does go away.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:14:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
so then what's your suggested solution? buy electronic hearing protection, use a pistol-caliber AR, get a can, something else?



Not necessarily a suggestion, just something that I wonder if anyone has ever considered. Several of our resident experts like to trash anything other than an AR-15 in 5.56 for home defense. I'm just curious if anyone has ever tried using one under the conditions that they would have to defend themselves.

I personally keep an HK USC in .45 ACP for home defense. With 230 grain ammo it is not very loud at all.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:15:29 PM EDT
My friend fired an M1A in my garage and I have fired my AR out of a vehicle at prairie dogs. Both without earplugs. The .308 hurt but I was in no way incapacitated.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:15:33 PM EDT
Under a high stress situation like you described, the adrenline overload that you experience will cause several physical symptoms, not the least of which is tunnel vision, hearing loss and the loss of fine motor skills. You won't have any problems with follow up shots if you can control your breathing and not hyper ventilate.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:17:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Have any of you fired an AR-15 in a dark room without hearing protection?



I have fired an M-4 indoors without hearing protection many times. I have been in the room and had a flashbang go off near my feet, no hearing protection. When the adrenaline is pumping, you won't hear anything. I've fired over 2400 rounds out of a SAW during MOUT in and out of buildings with no hearing protection...didn't feal anything till later that night (I was a little woozy.) The bottom line is, if you notice, it won't be until the incident is over, one way or the other.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:18:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TxLawDog:
Under a high stress situation like you described, the adrenline overload that you experience will cause several physical symptoms, not the least of which is tunnel vision, hearing loss and the loss of fine motor skills. You won't have any problems with follow up shots if you can control your breathing and not hyper ventilate.


Exactly. The increased blood flow adrenaline provides both enhances and protects us. Your hearing will be better and less prone to damage, although hearing damage will probably still be apparent in the long run.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:19:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 5:20:36 PM EDT by putneyswope]
Was right next to the muzzle of a .44 magnum upon discharging in a small room. I didn't notice a thing until my ears started ringing soon after the adrenalin stopped pumping. Compared to that I believe a rifle would be nothing...

ETA: The muzzle flash was nothing short of incredible although I could still see fine...
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:20:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By TheTracker:
in a senario like you describe, you won't even notice the noise



+1




This is correct, as proven by many, many reports from those that have been there, done that.

Worries about "noise" are silly.

Your life is at stake.



Then why do tactical teams use flash/bang grenades to incapacitate people who are held up in a house?



Because these people are not expecting a big bang. If I am shooting my rifle, I am.


You refer to reports. Have you ever fired a rifle indoors without hearig protection?


Of course I have.

But that isn't the issue.

The issue is, "If you are in a gunfight for your life, will you be bothered by loud noise."

The answer, according to many, many people that have been in such a fight, is "No".


I have. I got to talking with someone at the range (on a slow day, just me and another guy where there) and I took off my hearing protection. After we finished chatting I sat back down and without thinking about my ears, aimed and fired a shot from my Bushmaster. The next thing I remember, I was sitting on my butt in a daze holding my rifle realizing wondering what just happened.


Then you are the exception.

I have shot rifles many times without hearing protection. It is unpleasent, but didn't cause me to be " sitting on my butt in a daze holding my rifle realizing wondering what just happened". It was just unpleasent.


You may think that worries about noise are silly now, but will you think that they are silly when you are sitting on the fllor next to your couch having your rifle tugged away from you by the burglar who came in with the guy you just shot?


That is the silliest thing I have read on this forum in a while.

No bad guy is going to be "tugging" my rifle away from me. He is going to be bubbling air through a sucking chest wound.

You are wrong on this issue. You ought to be willing to learn, instead of being so prideful as to argue with people that know what they are talking about.


Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:21:50 PM EDT
"Auditory Exclusion", research it, during fight or flight mode you will not be bothered by the noise. I have fired a 5.56 (HK G36K) inside, without hearing protection, under extreme stress. All I heard was a muffled pop (actually pop,pop,pop,pop,pop, well you get the idea). If you ever find yourself in your described scenerio, you will not think twice about the "loud report".
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:24:04 PM EDT
+1 on the not hearing a thing, the flash is bright but not blinding, keep shooting until he quits.

Two minor things.
1. Do you live in an apartment? close neighbors? maybe try a shotgun to avoid killing your friends.

2. Does the guy with a gun have a vest on that says, "POLICE"? If so, you might wanna wait a sec before firing.

Thats just like a woman, sit there for ten minutes listening to a guy ransack the house and then wake you up when he starts coming upstairs.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:24:27 PM EDT
I agree that the adrenaline of a high stakes situation will cause you to not notice the noise. I hunt with a ported .300 WinMag, and I jumped a nice buck and nailed him on the run, and it wasn't until afterwards that I remembered that I failed to slip in my ear plugs before firing. No ringing or anything. Normally, the noise is near deafening, and quite painful.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:24:30 PM EDT
What kind of range where you on? A nice open type, or the close-in lane type? An indoor range is a very different noise environment than in your house. If your chosen defensive weapon incapacitates you, you might need to reconsider what you are using..

Ou guys went through many wars blasting people in houses without hearing protection and did OK.
Not too good for long-term hearing, though.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:27:06 PM EDT
auditory exclusion = you won't hear a thing when you're under attack.


that being said I ND'd an AR in my living room. 24" DPMS. Right into Robert Rrrrrreiisch's smug face.

I didn't hear the shot but my ears were ringin' for about an hour. And I was picking glass outta my hair for two.

Won't do that again.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:27:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

That is the silliest thing I have read on this forum in a while.

No bad guy is going to be "tugging" my rifle away from me. He is going to be bubbling air through a sucking chest wound.

You are wrong on this issue. You ought to be willing to learn, instead of being so prideful as to argue with people that know what they are talking about.





Well forgive me for not just up and taking your word for it when my first hand experience shows otherwise.

This has probably been the snippiest response I have seen from you, and more than a little bit of a mocking tone. I wonder who's pride is at issue here.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:29:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:30:23 PM EDT
I shot my AR in a school bus at a tactical match in NC. That Bushmaster mini Y comp is a beast inside. I think my fillings are still ringing.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:32:51 PM EDT
Who here hunts big game? Have ever noticed or been bothered by the sound when you took a shot?

I knew the answer to this question not as a combat guru but as a hunter. When your adreniline is flowing, sound is not an issue.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:34:07 PM EDT
Its called auditory exclusion. It is a natural stress response. In a high stress scenario, you may not even hear the shots, much less be distracted by them. I have fired handguns and rifles indoors, with protection. I have also been flasbanged several times. The flashbang only works its magic if its used with suprise. Think about sneaking up behind someone and yelling BOO-vs-saying "hey watch this---BOO".
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:38:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BuckeyeRifleman:
Who here hunts big game? Have ever noticed or been bothered by the sound when you took a shot?

I knew the answer to this question not as a combat guru but as a hunter. When your adreniline is flowing, sound is not an issue.



The sound of a rifle outdoors and the sound of a rifle indoors are two completely different things. As you may know, sound travels in waves. When you fire a rifle outdoors the sound expands outwards away from it's source until it's energy dissapates and the sound can no longer be heard. When you fire a rifle indoors, the sound initially expands outwards away from it's source but is almost immedately directed back at it's source when the sound waves reach the walls. This makes the sound seem much louder indoors then outdoors.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:39:58 PM EDT
I have to go with everyone else on this one. I have not fired an AR-15 indoors...but I have fired my SAW indoors, and been surrounded by other people firing. You really don't hear anything, everything is kinda just happening. Afterwards is when you will notice it.

-Ben
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:42:36 PM EDT
don't fire a .357 with a 2'' barrel inside a ford ranger
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:43:03 PM EDT
You present a scenario and ask for information from people who have actually been in situations similar and then argue with them about their responses. Why ask the question to begin with when you can put a magazine in your AR and crank some rounds off in your own house for your own answer? Your responses are argumentative.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:47:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BuckeyeRifleman:
Who here hunts big game? Have ever noticed or been bothered by the sound when you took a shot?

I knew the answer to this question not as a combat guru but as a hunter. When your adreniline is flowing, sound is not an issue.


When I'm hunting, I hear the shot, but it doesn't hurt.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:49:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 5:53:01 PM EDT by motown_steve]

Originally Posted By TxLawDog:
You present a scenario and ask for information from people who have actually been in situations similar and then argue with them about their responses. Why ask the question to begin with when you can put a magazine in your AR and crank some rounds off in your own house for your own answer? Your responses are argumentative.



You'll have to forgive me for not taking my pat on the head like a good boy when someone comes into the thread and posts a condescending and out right mocking response from the get go. Especially when they don't answer my question. Call it a character flaw on my part.

Did you realize that I had 8 responses to this thread before anyone replied that they had discharged a firearm of any sort indoors?
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:50:27 PM EDT
I've fired thousands of rounds without hearing protection, indoors and out.

It's not that big of a deal.

HD,
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:52:58 PM EDT
sllooooowwwwww lleearner.

(no offense to slow learners elsewhere.)
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:56:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

That is the silliest thing I have read on this forum in a while.

No bad guy is going to be "tugging" my rifle away from me. He is going to be bubbling air through a sucking chest wound.

You are wrong on this issue. You ought to be willing to learn, instead of being so prideful as to argue with people that know what they are talking about.





Well forgive me for not just up and taking your word for it when my first hand experience shows otherwise.

This has probably been the snippiest response I have seen from you, and more than a little bit of a mocking tone. I wonder who's pride is at issue here.



Well, if it's that easy, I'll just tug the rifle back...
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:58:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 6:03:49 PM EDT by EPOCH96]
The only way I would shoot my AR inside a house without hearing protection would be self-defense. Sorry, but even training isn't worth damage to my hearing. I have lost all hearing in one ear due to an inner ear infection. You don't realize how much you take hearing for granted until you lose it

Linky


According to expert Ayoob, these are a result of a primeval decision in the cortex of the brain that "there is only one thing that concerns us now, destroying or escaping the thing that is attempting to destroy us....The eyes still see and the ears still hear, but the cortex of the brain is screening out anything that is extraneous."


Your brain is focused on only the absolute necessary signals to survive, but your inner ear, in particular your cochlea in your inner ear is still taking a beating. Just because your brain doesn't register the signals means nothing.

EPOCH

ETA: I would give/spend just about anything to get my hearing back.

Link Posted: 1/3/2006 6:08:07 PM EDT
Going to an indoor range the AR-15 is annoying even with hearing protection (boring civilian range, that is).

In the military, I've fired the M-16, M-249 SAW, and M-60 indoors doing live fire exercises, without hearing protection, and it didn't bother me one bit (although I definately have some hearing damage now).
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 6:09:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 6:10:11 PM EDT by leakycow]
not to get too far off track, but is the consensus that the muzzle flash (in a dark house/room) is noticeable, but not blinding?
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