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Posted: 1/3/2006 3:39:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 3:41:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 3:42:24 PM EDT by The_Beer_Slayer]
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 3:47:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
decent little gun for a plinker. not sure i like it for much else. Mine shoots well and has been a reliable gun.



Any particular reason?
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 3:48:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 3:49:01 PM EDT by twonami]
You can do better on the price
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 3:52:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 3:56:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
decent little gun for a plinker. not sure i like it for much else. Mine shoots well and has been a reliable gun.



Any particular reason?



The 9mm round has proven to be ineffective at stopping threats. Most Tactical teams around the country are switching from their pistol caliber sub-guns such as the Heckler & Kock MP-5, to variations of the AR-15 rifle. The .223 round is far superior at penetrating soft body armor that is becoming more and more prevelant in criminal activity. (North Hollywood shootout is a prime example of a 9mm round being ineffective against body armor.)

In my opinion, if your are going to have one rifle.....make it a AR.

Now if you have the money.......buy one of each!!!
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 3:58:47 PM EDT
go with the .45
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:00:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RUSSIANCATKILLA:
go with the .45


if they ever make a high capacity mag in 45
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:00:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 4:01:47 PM EDT by FMJshooter]

Originally Posted By RUSSIANCATKILLA:
go with the .45



If its just gonna be used for plinking theres no hi cap mags in .45.

ETA see above
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:04:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By schv:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
decent little gun for a plinker. not sure i like it for much else. Mine shoots well and has been a reliable gun.



Any particular reason?



The 9mm round has proven to be ineffective at stopping threats. Most Tactical teams around the country are switching from their pistol caliber sub-guns such as the Heckler & Kock MP-5, to variations of the AR-15 rifle. The .223 round is far superior at penetrating soft body armor that is becoming more and more prevelant in criminal activity. (North Hollywood shootout is a prime example of a 9mm round being ineffective against body armor.)





Polly wanna crakcer?
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:07:11 PM EDT
I bought one in 9mm when they first came out for
my kids to shoot . Then I dressed it up with all the
uber tactical crap stuff Beretta sells for it .



I hate to admit it , but I like shooting it too .
It's quick and accurate , and with the right ammo
the damn thing almost sounds suppressed .

The Beretta 20rd mags work well while the Chinese
30 rd knock offs are pretty much junk .

I agree with The_Beer_Slayer . That price is high .
Do some looking and you should be able to find new
in the $500-550 range , or used for around $400
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:10:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:10:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chrome1:
I bought one in 9mm when they first came out for
my kids to shoot . Then I dressed it up with all the
uber tactical crap stuff Beretta sells for it .

photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=44241

I hate to admit it , but I like shooting it too .
It's quick and accurate , and with the right ammo
the damn thing almost sounds suppressed .

The Beretta 20rd mags work well while the Chinese
30 rd knock offs are pretty much junk .

I agree with The_Beer_Slayer . That price is high .
Do some looking and you should be able to find new
in the $500-550 range , or used for around $400



Those barrel shrouds are teh ghey.

No offense.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:14:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Those barrel shrouds are teh ghey.

No offense.



I agree , but my kids like it . Thats why it's
on there .
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:14:53 PM EDT
Solution looking for a problem. Here is why:
1. Still has to follow the 16 in barrel rule
2. Proprietary magazines that cost $40 for a 20 round mag
3. Plastic
4. Bad trigger
5. Can't change the furnature (would like a folder/collapsable stock)

I guess the question I am asking is:

What does it do that the AR-15 doesn't do better?
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:15:37 PM EDT
Oh that thing would look pretty sharp with my Gemtech Trinity.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:21:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 4:22:23 PM EDT by FMJshooter]

Originally Posted By fla556guy:
Solution looking for a problem. Here is why:
1. Still has to follow the 16 in barrel rule
2. Proprietary magazines that cost $40 for a 20 round mag
3. Plastic
4. Bad trigger
5. Can't change the furnature (would like a folder/collapsable stock)

I guess the question I am asking is:

What does it do that the AR-15 doesn't do better?



All that plastic makes it nice and light and havent heard any problems. And who said its better then a
AR its fun having something other than an AR to shoot.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:34:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 4:37:03 PM EDT by motown_steve]

Originally Posted By fla556guy:
Solution looking for a problem. Here is why:
1. Still has to follow the 16 in barrel rule
2. Proprietary magazines that cost $40 for a 20 round mag
3. Plastic
4. Bad trigger
5. Can't change the furnature (would like a folder/collapsable stock)

I guess the question I am asking is:

What does it do that the AR-15 doesn't do better?



It's much lighter and way more compact than an AR-15. The entire rifle is 31.5" long, with no stock to collapse or extend. An AR-15 with a 16" barrel and a telestock is 31.5" WITH THE STOCK COLLAPSED! Once you extend your stock you add 4"-6" to the length of the rifle. The Storm is ready to go at 31.5".

It's also lighter, reversible (wanna switch the ejection port for a left handed shooter? no problem) and solid (this gun feels like 1 solid piece).

It's a great gun.


ETA - Also, if you use sub sonic ammunition, it is very quiet unlike an AR which sounds like a clap of thunder. Noise reduction is another bonus, especially for home defense.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:38:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By schv:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
decent little gun for a plinker. not sure i like it for much else. Mine shoots well and has been a reliable gun.



Any particular reason?



The 9mm round has proven to be ineffective at stopping threats. Most Tactical teams around the country are switching from their pistol caliber sub-guns such as the Heckler & Kock MP-5, to variations of the AR-15 rifle. The .223 round is far superior at penetrating soft body armor that is becoming more and more prevelant in criminal activity. (North Hollywood shootout is a prime example of a 9mm round being ineffective against body armor.)



yeesh.

They're moving to .223 generally to deal with issues of overpenetration, which a good .223 round handles better than a 9mm // .40 / 10mm round out of a subgun.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:43:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fla556guy:
Solution looking for a problem. Here is why:
1. Still has to follow the 16 in barrel rule
2. Proprietary magazines that cost $40 for a 20 round mag
3. Plastic
4. Bad trigger
5. Can't change the furnature (would like a folder/collapsable stock)

I guess the question I am asking is:

What does it do that the AR-15 doesn't do better?



It makes my kids happy ?

Your argument is apples and oranges . I mean WTF .

Using that logic you could say that everyone should drive
a 1988 Yugo . Because after all , with posted speed limits it
gets you from point A to point B in the same amount of time
as a $65,000 , Z06 Vette .

It's all about free will and choice , something I for one
am glad to have
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:44:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

............ especially for home defense.




I would not trust a 9mm round for home defense. And just so you don't think I am just "repeating" crap I've read, as usggested by your last post......... I am a Police Officer, a P.O.S.T. certified Range Instructor, I teach firearms at the local Police Academy, and have done extensive research into the matter of pistol caliber sub-guns vs. rifle calibers.............THERE IS NO COMPARISON!!

I am not saying the Beretta is a "bad weapon", but it is suitable as a plinker or varmit weapon only. I would not trust it to protect me or my family against anyone but an unarmed intruder..........
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:47:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bastiat:


yeesh.

They're moving to .223 generally to deal with issues of overpenetration, which a good .223 round handles better than a 9mm // .40 / 10mm round out of a subgun.



Do you work in Law Enforcement? Is that the reason your Tac Team went to .223?

Our Tac Team went to .223 because of the reasons I stated....I made the argument to the Chief and Mayor..........did you?
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:54:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 4:55:17 PM EDT by bastiat]

Originally Posted By schv:

Originally Posted By bastiat:


yeesh.

They're moving to .223 generally to deal with issues of overpenetration, which a good .223 round handles better than a 9mm // .40 / 10mm round out of a subgun.



Do you work in Law Enforcement? Is that the reason your Tac Team went to .223?

Our Tac Team went to .223 because of the reasons I stated....I made the argument to the Chief and Mayor..........did you?



Gee, sorry colonel cooper, I read it numerous times in places like SWAT magazine - they always mention 'overpenetration' and I can't recall seeing any mention of perps wearing body armor as reason for the switch.

YMMV.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:56:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By schv:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

............ especially for home defense.




I would not trust a 9mm round for home defense. And just so you don't think I am just "repeating" crap I've read, as usggested by your last post......... I am a Police Officer, a P.O.S.T. certified Range Instructor, I teach firearms at the local Police Academy, and have done extensive research into the matter of pistol caliber sub-guns vs. rifle calibers.............THERE IS NO COMPARISON!!

I am not saying the Beretta is a "bad weapon", but it is suitable as a plinker or varmit weapon only. I would not trust it to protect me or my family against anyone but an unarmed intruder..........



How many times have you fired an AR-15 in a dark room without hearing protection after just being woken from your sleep?

As a highly trained police officer, you are undoubtedly familar with flash bang grenades. These as you know are devices which when discharged produce a loud noise and bright flash which temporarily incapacitates the target. What effect would an AR-15 have on someone when fired in a dark room in the interior of a house, without ear protection?

AR-15's are fine weapons, but I would prefer something that will not flood my senses in the middle of a fire fight. I personally use a .45 ACP HK USC for home defense, but I would not hesitate to use a Beretta Storm also. If the round goes where it is supposed to go, then it will do it's job and I will be able to fight whoever else is in my home as well (if there are say 2 burglars).

Beretta Storms are also available in .40 S&W and .45 ACP.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:59:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 5:02:33 PM EDT by Johninaustin]
You know, there are reasons beside the Uber-tactical one's for buying guns. Don't you guys ever shoot for fun?

As for a house gun, i think my Storm would fill that role very well.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:01:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
You know, there are reson beside the Uber-tactical one's for buying guns. Don't you guys ever shoot for fun?

As for a house gun, i think my storm would fill that role very well.



blashphemer!
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:02:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:06:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
You know, there are reson beside the Uber-tactical one's for buying guns. Don't you guys ever shoot for fun?

As for a house gun, i think my storm would fill that role very well.



NO!!!

defense of my castle from invading commie zombie hoards and UBER TACTICALITY are the ONLY concerns!!



which is why I have 5.11 jammies.

Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:08:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:22:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
You know, there are reson beside the Uber-tactical one's for buying guns. Don't you guys ever shoot for fun?

As for a house gun, i think my storm would fill that role very well.



NO!!!

defense of my castle from invading commie zombie hoards and UBER TACTICALITY are the ONLY concerns!!



which is why I have 5.11 jammies.




are they the marpat set with the kevlar footies? i love those.



Damn straight.

And for my nursery monitor I use secure two way walkie talkies. Got to start the kids out right!

Anyone else do 'tactical SWAT rolls' (from the movie) when they take out the garbage at night? I know I do, because it keeps the neighborhood snipers from getting a clean shot.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:23:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:23:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By schv:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

............ especially for home defense.




I would not trust a 9mm round for home defense. And just so you don't think I am just "repeating" crap I've read, as usggested by your last post......... I am a Police Officer, a P.O.S.T. certified Range Instructor, I teach firearms at the local Police Academy, and have done extensive research into the matter of pistol caliber sub-guns vs. rifle calibers.............THERE IS NO COMPARISON!!

I am not saying the Beretta is a "bad weapon", but it is suitable as a plinker or varmit weapon only. I would not trust it to protect me or my family against anyone but an unarmed intruder..........



How many times have you fired an AR-15 in a dark room without hearing protection after just being woken from your sleep?

As a highly trained police officer, you are undoubtedly familar with flash bang grenades. These as you know are devices which when discharged produce a loud noise and bright flash which temporarily incapacitates the target. What effect would an AR-15 have on someone when fired in a dark room in the interior of a house, without ear protection?

AR-15's are fine weapons, but I would prefer something that will not flood my senses in the middle of a fire fight. I personally use a .45 ACP HK USC for home defense, but I would not hesitate to use a Beretta Storm also. If the round goes where it is supposed to go, then it will do it's job and I will be able to fight whoever else is in my home as well (if there are say 2 burglars).

Beretta Storms are also available in .40 S&W and .45 ACP.



I see you have spent alot of time playing out scenarios which is good . But you might be overthinking the hearing aspect. A flashbang is succesful when unexpected and is MUCH louder and more blinding than a 5.56. Your brain will prepare itself when it tells the finger to squeeze. You may not even hear anything at all kind of like when you hear about people saying "it all went in slow motion". people do it everyday. Also not everyone in the sandbox wears earplugs and they fire full auto in enclosed areas.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:23:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:


How many times have you fired an AR-15 in a dark room without hearing protection after just being woken from your sleep?

As a highly trained police officer, you are undoubtedly familar with flash bang grenades. These as you know are devices which when discharged produce a loud noise and bright flash which temporarily incapacitates the target. What effect would an AR-15 have on someone when fired in a dark room in the interior of a house, without ear protection?

AR-15's are fine weapons, but I would prefer something that will not flood my senses in the middle of a fire fight. I personally use a .45 ACP HK USC for home defense, but I would not hesitate to use a Beretta Storm also. If the round goes where it is supposed to go, then it will do it's job and I will be able to fight whoever else is in my home as well (if there are say 2 burglars).

Beretta Storms are also available in .40 S&W and .45 ACP.




I am not advocating the use of an AR-15 as an interior home defense weapon. A point was made (Beer-Slayer) that the 9mm Beretta was good as a plinker only........you asked why? If your not using it as a plinker....then what are you using it for? either hunting or self defense...right?

I stated that the 9mm round was not suitable for self defense purposes.....if you want to argue that point then you really need to check with the FBI and their volumes, and volumes, of firearms research on the matter. I read probably 50 different studies on pistol caliber test pertaining to wound ballistics and penetration through clothing, walls, car doors, windshields etc. I read the same amount of tests on rifle calibers.

I then conducted my several of my own test with everything from junk vehicles and drywall, to large pieces of meat, i.e. 20 lb. hams.

Again, there is no comparison between pistol and rifle projectiles.

What do I use for home defense?? A glock 21 .45-ACP with a Glock Tac light on the front. Why?
Portability. I leave the Glock on my nightstand, and when I hear something, I have a high powered light and weapon all in one package that still allows me to open doors and move freely in the residence.

As far as firing a AR in a room, it is done daily by us forces overseas, do you thing the guys that went in to Iraq and were clearing buildings were wearing ear protection??? Will it cause hearing damage, sometimes permanent? You bet. Will it disorient you like a flashbang? No.

The bottom line is, a 9mm round has proven time and time again, to be marginally effective at stopping a human threat. Is it better than a .22lr? Yep, is it anywhere on par with even a .45 ACP, let alone a .223 or .308? Nope.

Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:26:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
hijack complete

t­his thread is clean



Sooner or later some jerkwad will try to come along and steer it back on topic.

You can ban someone for that, right?
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:30:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:32:30 PM EDT
I keep this by my nightstand.




Hell, it's fun as a plinker too!!
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:34:45 PM EDT
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