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Posted: 1/2/2006 5:26:17 PM EDT
Hey- I thought gun control solved all thse problems.....



Fears over tired gun cops
by IAN SWANSON


Armed police attended more than 450 incidents last year, but concern is mounting over a working pattern which includes a 12-hour shift
Picture: Colin Hattersley



SAFETY fears were voiced today after it emerged that specialist armed police officers are routinely working 12-hour shifts.

Lothian and Borders Police Federation, which represents rank and file officers, has told Chief Constable Paddy Tomkins it is no longer prepared to sanction the shift patterns for the force's armed response vehicle (ARV) unit. And politicians warned the long hours could impair the judgement of officers making split- second decisions in dangerous situations.


The ARV unit has 25 officers manning two vehicles which are on the road at all times. Last year they attended 458 incidents, ranging from reports of people seen with handguns to armed robberies and full-blown armed sieges.

But today, Jackie Muller, secretary of Lothian and Borders Police Federation, said poor staffing levels meant one night every week, both the two-person crews would be working 12 hours at a stretch.

She said it was a trial shift pattern which had been operating since the unit was established in the summer, but breached the European working time directive.

She said: "The federation has concerns about that and recently refused to agree to the permanent adoption of that shift pattern.

"We do not believe officers should be expected to compromise their own health and safety due to a lack of police numbers."

She said the staffing level in the unit was too low to meet all the shift requirements, once days off, annual leave, sickness, court attendances and compulsory two days a month training were taken into account.

"We were told by the management of the department that if the force put enough officers into the unit they would not need to work that shift pattern."

Ms Muller said working time regulations laid down that people who face special hazards in their job should not work more than eight hours on a nightshift.

And she claimed: "The current shift pattern also flies in the face of the ACPOS manual of guidance for police using firearms, which says armed officers should work eight to ten hours. It does go on to talk about 12 hours as a maximum. But if you have someone who has been on for 11 hours and is then deployed, they could end up working well over 12 hours.

"What is going to be their level of alertness by then? There is a duty of care to ensure the safety of the public. It is generally accepted that tiredness affects people's ability to make decisions."

The officers in the unit are happy to continue working the shifts. Ms Muller said the longer nightshift entitled them to a day off, but because of the staffing problem they often ended up working that day for extra pay.

The federation's decision to withdraw its approval for the shift means police chiefs must now come up with an alternative solution by the end of February.

SNP justice spokesman and Lothians MSP Kenny MacAskill said he was worried about public safety as a result of the 12-hour shifts. He said: "It is a regrettable part of policing now that we need an armed response unit, but we need to ensure the officers are fit and able to do what is needed when they are on duty."

A police spokesman said: "The present shift system has the support of all the officers. However, we are considering alternative proposals from the federation."

Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:32:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:

SAFETY fears were voiced today after it emerged that specialist armed police officers are routinely working 12-hour shifts.........

The ARV unit has 25 officers manning two vehicles which are on the road at all times. Last year they attended 458 incidents, ranging from reports of people seen with handguns to armed robberies and full-blown armed sieges.

But today, Jackie Muller, secretary of Lothian and Borders Police Federation, said poor staffing levels meant one night every week, both the two-person crews would be working 12 hours at a stretch.


Sounds like they need to break down and designate more officers as armed units.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:34:59 PM EDT
Either that, or the subjects there need to advise the Crown that they are no longer subjects, but Citizens.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:35:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Slotback:
Either that, or the subjects there need to advise the Crown that they are no longer subjects, but Citizens.


Thats not going to happen.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:38:02 PM EDT
Then take the guns from the cops, too.

Problem solved.

Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:38:45 PM EDT
So? Firemen work 48 hour shifts. The military works longer than 12 hours per day, last I checked.

These guys are probably asleap half their shift anyway. They're an "armed response team" not an "armed patrol team", right?
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:44:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MlTCHELL:
So? Firemen work 48 hour shifts. The military works longer than 12 hours per day, last I checked.

These guys are probably asleap half their shift anyway. They're an "armed response team" not an "armed patrol team", right?



Firemen sleep at the firehouse during that 48 hours. I have read articles on these teams in the past; they are on patrol, not sitting around waiting for calls like FF, and respond to calls where an armed presence is deemed needed.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:45:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:


Sounds like they need to break down and designate more officers as armed units.



That would be tantamount to admitting that progressive gun eradication in the UK has been an utter failure, and that the Crown cannot make Britain into a gun-free society without bringing in... *gasp* more guns....
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:49:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:
That would be tantamount to admitting that progressive gun eradication in the UK has been an utter failure, and that the Crown cannot make Britain into a gun-free society without bringing in... *gasp* more guns....



I think thats been proven already
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:56:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:
That would be tantamount to admitting that progressive gun eradication in the UK has been an utter failure, and that the Crown cannot make Britain into a gun-free society without bringing in... *gasp* more guns....



I think thats been proven already



To us, but not to them over there. I have known English cops and .mil, and, with a few exceptions (mostly ex-soldiers who lived in Canada and the USA for long periods of time), they all dislike the idea of owning and using guns outside of their work. The idea of civilians with them, using them to defend themselves lawfully, is also anathema to the guys I knew. They think it will lead to accidents and lawlessness.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:56:42 PM EDT
A huge number of American law enforcement agencies work 12 hour shifts, and all their officers carry guns. WTF are the Brits whining about?
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:57:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bonk2029:
A huge number of American law enforcement agencies work 12 hour shifts, and all their officers carry guns. WTF are the Brits whining about?



Unions?
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:59:12 PM EDT
So thesse are the only cops that have guns?

Gotta love the European way of doing things!
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 6:00:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:
[To us, but not to them over there. I have known English cops and .mil, and, with a few exceptions (mostly ex-soldiers who lived in Canada and the USA for long periods of time), they all dislike the idea of owning and using guns outside of their work. The idea of civilians with them, using them to defend themselves lawfully, is also anathema to the guys I knew. They think it will lead to accidents and lawlessness.



They have centuries of being disarmed by their leadership.I am surprised that they didn't get their firearms taken away sooner than they did.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 6:07:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By XDBACKUPGUN:
So thesse are the only cops that have guns?

Gotta love the European way of doing things!

Well most Euro cops do carry handguns, but not in the UK and Ireland.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 9:41:09 PM EDT
12 hour shifts get the f out of here,,lay off the booze and get some sleep,,,12hrs. ain't shit and consider the overtime!,,,hey did we ever get overtime out in the shit? NOT
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 9:44:54 PM EDT
is that a BSA red dot on that MP5?
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 8:09:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By www-glock19-com:
is that a BSA red dot on that MP5?



They are cheap and tired.
BOO FUCKING HOO!
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