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Posted: 12/29/2005 10:25:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 10:28:18 PM EDT by Special-K]
As I understand it, a number of countries issue rifle grenades to their infantry troops. Why don't we do the same?

Excepting the M-203, we really don't use any such weapons. It would seem that issuing each soldier these would make sence as each soldier would then have a more powerful punch available to him. We used to issue these in WW2 and Korea - when/why did we stop?

IIRC the Israelis do issue them, and they have a large array of different types - from regular frag grenades to AT types, flechette launching "ambush" grenades, smoke gredades and flares. They all had bullet traps allowing the use of standard ball/tracer ammo launch them.

I'm a big fan of the M-203 (qualified expert on it several times) but I would want everyone in my squad to have that kind of firepower if possible - instead of just the 203 gunner. Even 1 or 2 rounds could come in really handy - especially in a heavy urban fight. Isn't the reason the flash suppressors on M-16's are 22mm in diameter is because that's the standard NATO rifle grenade launcher diameter and they can be used for just that purpose? Just like on the Yugo SKS (Which isn't NATO but was advertised as having a standard NATO 22mm grenade launcher on the end of the barrel).

Am I wrong? Discuss.......


-K
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:28:32 PM EDT
im still wanting to know where to get them and how to use them without blowing my face off!
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:37:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:41:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 10:44:03 PM EDT by Special-K]
I've seen the old WW2 types at gun shows. They are the type that you have to insert a regular hand grenade into. I also saw one that was painted blue and had a dent in it from previous use I'm assuming. It was pretty heavy and shaped alot like a large RPG round - kind of like 2 cones with their large ends together with a fin if that makes any sence. There were seperate launchers that would clip on to the muzzle of a Garand and you were supposed to use a blank. My Ex girlfriend's Dad had the whole setup with both above mentioned grenades, a launcher, and site unit. We never had the guts to try them though!

Speaking of that - I have a box of M-200 blanks and my flash supressor should..... Would it be safe?


-K

ETA: Woo Hoo! Post #1400! What better use for a post than discussing grenades?!
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 11:01:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Special-K:
I've seen the old WW2 types at gun shows. They are the type that you have to insert a regular hand grenade into. I also saw one that was painted blue and had a dent in it from previous use I'm assuming. It was pretty heavy and shaped alot like a large RPG round - kind of like 2 cones with their large ends together with a fin if that makes any sence. There were seperate launchers that would clip on to the muzzle of a Garand and you were supposed to use a blank. My Ex girlfriend's Dad had the whole setup with both above mentioned grenades, a launcher, and site unit. We never had the guts to try them though!

Speaking of that - I have a box of M-200 blanks and my flash supressor should..... Would it be safe?


-K

ETA: Woo Hoo! Post #1400! What better use for a post than discussing grenades?!



Do not, I repeat, DO NOT, use regular blanks to try and launch rifle grenades.
Only special grenade launching blanks should be used.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 2:49:50 AM EDT
In WWII we issued rifle grenades to only one guy in the rifle squad. That's why one M1903 was retained per squad until the M7 GL could be developed for the M1 Garand. Once that was fielded in late WWII and all through Korea we had all M1/BAR equipped rifle squads, but still only one guy for the rifle grenades.

Late in Korea, the Army was going to go to a rifle squad structure that would have had two fire teams, each with a BAR and an M1 with GL, the rest armed with M1s, and one of them would have been a M1D giving one sniper per squad. Post-Korea there were funding and training issues, so the sniper idea fell by the wayside, to eventually be resurrected in Iraq.

But anyway in reality, the set-up was similar to what you have today with the M203. Only the M203 can be shot nearly twice as far, is twice as accurate, and you can shoot it twice as fast. Alot of people think everyone had rifle grenades, and now days we're somehow shortchanged, but the fact is that's not the case. We just went to a better way to delvier grenades by the same number of guys.

Alot of the reason not everybody carried rifle grenades was because back then you needed to use a grenade launching blank which would effectively take your rifle out of the picture as long as you were dicking with the rifle grenade. Today alot of that is eliminated by some designs that allow the use of ball ammo, but oddly enough using ball ammo doesn't throw the grenade as far, reducing range by some 50m. Your rifle is still tied up the entire time you are employing the grenade, so the squad is out that firepower during that time.

If you take a rifle squad today, there are already two guys with M249s, so they won't shoot grenades, and there's two M203's so there's no point there either. Dicking with a rifle grenade is pretty attention intensive, and it would be pretty debateable whether it would be a good idea for a squad leader or team leader to be fooling around with one rather than directing his troops. Better leadership will win a fight over the use of a rifle grenade most likely. If you have on guy with an M14 or other DMR, that leaves you with three or four guys that would be capable of effectively employing a rifle grenade and that would only be if your squad was full strength.

So the idea of where it would fit in today's squad is the big question. Since we only had one or two rifle grenade launchers per squad "back in the day", and they were replaced by the 40mm system that is much better, the question is not "why no rifle grenades?" but "why bring back rifle grenades?"

Special applications such as chemical delivery, illumination (which is still much better accomplished with the slap flare, and then the 40mm before a rifle grenade), less than lethal, and riot control would be some pretty valid applications it would seem. If you had a squad fire a couple dozen rifle grenades of CS at a mob, it would saturate the area pretty quick.

There have also been some interesting developments in disposible grenade launchers which would seem a better way to go than a rifle grenade if you wanted to arm everyone. Far lighter and less bulky than a LAW, and no flash/backblast. Not as much punch as a LAW, but as much as a 40mm.

Anti-tank use is pretty much out against anything built in the last thirty years, and a LAW or AT-4 is much better suited to AT use (the LAW replaced the old HEAT rifle grenade and M20 3.5" bazooka at the same time).

Add all of that to the expense in funds and time to train and field rifle grenades for minor return and it's just not worth doing.

Link Posted: 12/30/2005 4:43:44 AM EDT
with a "Swanson" blank I can launch this about 100yds with my Yugo m59/66
I wonder how far it would go with a grenade blank
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 5:38:11 AM EDT
Did someone say they wanted to buy grenades for their Yugo/NATO rifle ?



buy here

I bought a case. They work great on my Yugo and MAS 49/56.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 5:43:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2005 5:52:50 AM EDT by Phil_A_Steen]
Thanks for the lead on the rifle grenades, I've been looking for that case.


ETA: After seeing this video, I no longer want them.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 5:46:40 AM EDT
works great as a chrsitmas tree topper
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 7:32:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
Thanks for the lead on the rifle grenades, I've been looking for that case.


ETA: After seeing this video, I no longer want them.



I use the British "too hot for BFA" rounds on a bolt FR8 , MAS 49/56 with gas cutoff. They sure go a lot further than that.

I bought 1000 rounds of them for $20 . IM me if'n you change your mind.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 7:36:52 AM EDT
.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 7:44:48 AM EDT
I picked up one of those Israeli practice grenades, but never got around to doing anything with it.


Link Posted: 12/30/2005 2:23:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2005 2:24:12 PM EDT by Special-K]

Originally Posted By CB1:
with a "Swanson" blank I can launch this about 100yds with my Yugo m59/66
I wonder how far it would go with a grenade blank
photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=43728



What's a "Swanson" blank? Have therebeen any safety issues with you doing this?

What happens if I use a full power blank in one of my AR's?


-K
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 2:27:22 PM EDT
How long does it take to slip a grenade over the muzzle, aim and shoot?

Would still seem to me to have an advantage to have more people able to project little bundles of joy over longer distance that by arm. Even if they don't go as far as the 40mm, they can still travel farther than by being thrown by hand. If, at the time, using a grenade isn't worth it for some reason then one doesn't need to. But when the time comes that it would useful I would rather we had them than not.


-K
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 2:28:27 PM EDT
Rifle Grenade blanks have a different colored crimped tip normally from other blanks. The USCG still uses rifle grenade cartridges for the .30 Line Throwing Gun and the M16 5.56mm conversion kit. The primary intent of line-throwing guns or kits being to assist with mooring in difficult areas.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 2:58:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
Instead of burdening ground troops with several different types of munitions, why not have them carry extra mortar rounds & 203 rounds?

(That's what we did, anyway...)

BTW, It always brought smiles to the faces of me & my gun team to learn that we would be lugging mortar rounds in addition to the numerous belts of 8 lbs.-per-100 rds. of 7.62



Well, that is better than humping that damn mortar tube and base plate.

I used to watch the Wolfhounds and other Infantry unit's hump Kolekole pass and those guys carring the mortars and baseplates sure where hating life. Those guys always had the "I am going to KILL MY RECRUITER" look.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 7:05:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
Thanks for the lead on the rifle grenades, I've been looking for that case.


ETA: After seeing this video, I no longer want them.




Here is a page that has some videos of grenade launching from an SKS. He seems to be able to get them to go much further than in the previously posted video.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 4:33:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Special-K:

Originally Posted By CB1:
with a "Swanson" blank I can launch this about 100yds with my Yugo m59/66
I wonder how far it would go with a grenade blank
photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=43728



What's a "Swanson" blank? Have therebeen any safety issues with you doing this?

What happens if I use a full power blank in one of my AR's?


-K


Swanson blanks are the hollywood hot blanks.
www.ctaz.com/~joemar/
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 3:34:20 PM EDT
Thanks for the info about the Swansons. How different are they from the M200's?

Does anyone know much about the rifle grenades used by the Euros and the Israelis?


-K
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 3:51:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By Special-K:
I've seen the old WW2 types at gun shows. They are the type that you have to insert a regular hand grenade into. I also saw one that was painted blue and had a dent in it from previous use I'm assuming. It was pretty heavy and shaped alot like a large RPG round - kind of like 2 cones with their large ends together with a fin if that makes any sence. There were seperate launchers that would clip on to the muzzle of a Garand and you were supposed to use a blank. My Ex girlfriend's Dad had the whole setup with both above mentioned grenades, a launcher, and site unit. We never had the guts to try them though!

Speaking of that - I have a box of M-200 blanks and my flash supressor should..... Would it be safe?


-K

ETA: Woo Hoo! Post #1400! What better use for a post than discussing grenades?!



Do not, I repeat, DO NOT, use regular blanks to try and launch rifle grenades.
Only special grenade launching blanks should be used.



Don't forget the newer "bullet trap" grenades that work with standard ammunition.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 4:46:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
Instead of burdening ground troops with several different types of munitions, why not have them carry extra mortar rounds & 203 rounds?

(That's what we did, anyway...)

BTW, It always brought smiles to the faces of me & my gun team to learn that we would be lugging mortar rounds in addition to the numerous belts of 8 lbs.-per-100 rds. of 7.62



I used to get so pissed at the 0311s not wanting to carry any MG ammo. Duh, it's your ass too. On forced marches we, the 0331 machine gunners, would help the mortarmen with their stuff. Damn baseplates are heavy, not to mention bipods for the mortars. Funny thing is the weapons platoon guys weren't the ones to fall out of a march despite their heavier loading. I guess it was a matter of pride and being used to being a friggin pack mule.

SoS
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