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Posted: 12/29/2005 11:58:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 12:08:04 PM EDT by SteyrAUG]
Been awhile since I've done an installment, mostly because no new material. Haven't done any recent gun shows and been mostly dealing with my regulars so not much funny stuff to relate.

I should also stress that I posted this one, not to make fun of somebody who didn't understand, but to address something that is common enough that I run into it from time to time.

Anyway I get the usual call inquiring about what is needed for me to "transfer" a gun. First things first and I establish that it actually IS a "transfer" and not somebody trying to order from a FFL distributor. The old timer on the phone explained that they were going from one private collection to another so no problem. He asked how many could be transferred at one time as it involved about 20 guns and he wanted to make sure there weren't any other charged besides the $25 transfer fee per gun, for a total of about $500.

I explained that he could put 3 guns on a 4473 (so long as there wasn't more than one handgun) and that would knock his costs down by 2/3s or a little more than $166 instead of $500. He didn't realize that and thanked me for pointing it out and made arrangements to stop by to drop off the money. He said he'd also "bring the guns", which of course confused me. Up to this point I assumed he was the buyer and found about 20 new toys on some auction site but I figured I'd sort it out when I saw him in person.

So he shows up and he's got about 20 guns in cases. Now I'm confused and I'm wondering why I'm "transferring" guns he aleady has in his possession. Turns out he's giving them all to his grandson and wants me to handle the "transfer."

So I start to explain the "transfer" process from an ownership stand point. First, in this state, there is NO firearm registration so guns don't have a registered owner. Proof of ownership is no more different than what you have for your TV or DVD player.

When a background check is done the firearm is NOT registered to an owner. The make, model and serial number are NOT provided to the agency doing the check. The ONLY record is that person being cleared for the purchase of a firearm and suppossedly those records are not kept anyway.

The 4473 does have all that information but does NOT prove ownership. A person can sell their firearm the very next day and the 4473 will no longer indicate who owns that firearm. It is only a record of a FFL transaction. The 4473 is not provided to the customer or any agency so their is nothing in the way of registering a firearm to an owner.

The bound book only shows where a firearm came from and went to. Again it is just a record of the transaction and does not prove ownership. The bound book information is not provided to any agency or to the customer and again does NOT register a firearm to an owner.

So in short, NOTHING a FFL does registers a firearm to an owner. The information ONLY shows the transactions were done lawfully.

Long story short I told him to give the guns to his grandkid and simply make a record of the transaction (including makes, models and serials) and keep it with his personal papers. I also told him if he wanted it to be a little more official he could get it notarized.

He thanked me and tried to give me $25 for my time but I told him to keep it. I didn't do anything and advice is free. I wonder how many of the local FFLs would have made $500 or $166 for this guy to give his guns to his grandkid.

Again, FFLs (in states with NO registration) DO NOT change the ownership of a firearm any more than Best Buy registers your TV to you. If you want PROOF OF OWNERSHIP or CHANGE OF OWNERSHIP it is exactly like selling or giving away your television. And a notarized document is cheaper than a FFL.

Should cost about $5.00 and is far more useful for proving transfer of ownership.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:04:17 PM EDT
4473's are audited at the discretion of the government.

What is the length of time you must keep them?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:05:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 12:06:33 PM EDT by fight4yourrights]
You Sir, are a Gentleman.

and I hope the grandson appreciates what he gets.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:07:47 PM EDT
Thank you for your sound business ethic.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:09:28 PM EDT
Not taking the $500 (or the $166) is a sure sign of integrity. I'm willing to bet that either the Grandpa or the grandson (or both) will be a paying customer of yours before too long.


Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:10:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
4473's are audited at the discretion of the government.

What is the length of time you must keep them?



Currently 20 years.

But they are not really auditted at the discretion of the government. They have to have a reason to supoena a 4473.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:11:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
You Sir, are a Gentleman.

and I hope the grandson appreciates what he gets.


+1
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:12:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 223-Buckaroo:
Not taking the $500 (or the $166) is a sure sign of integrity. I'm willing to bet that either the Grandpa or the grandson (or both) will be a paying customer of yours before too long.





I know I'd have to turn that $500 into a new gun, or at least the start of a new gun.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:13:53 PM EDT
Thanks SteyrAUG for renewing my faith in dealers . altho most of the ones i deal with here locally are "ggod" people i can think of a few that would have taken advantage of the situation to make a few bucks. On another note i love reading you tale of the ffl post
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:14:24 PM EDT
I would not hesitate to do business with you, for you are a gentleman and a scholar (and a ninja).
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:15:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
4473's are audited at the discretion of the government.

What is the length of time you must keep them?



Currently 20 years.

But they are not really auditted at the discretion of the government. They have to have a reason to supoena a 4473.



Who said anything about a subpoena?

I'm sure they don't make you jump through the hoops that bigger stores like Dick's and Walmart jump through, but routinely they audited the "thoroughness and accuracy in completion" of 4473's at the now defunct Gaylan's Trading Company.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:18:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 12:18:32 PM EDT by livefreeordieNH]
May the Flying Spaghetti Monster annoint thy Noodle with his heavenly sauce.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:19:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
4473's are audited at the discretion of the government.

What is the length of time you must keep them?



Currently 20 years.

But they are not really auditted at the discretion of the government. They have to have a reason to supoena a 4473.



Who said anything about a subpoena?

I'm sure they don't make you jump through the hoops that bigger stores like Dick's and Walmart jump through, but routinely they audited the "thoroughness and accuracy in completion" of 4473's at the now defunct Gaylan's Trading Company.



I know what you are referring to, but checking for completeness and making a copy are two different things. Also the chains generally are not as well informed, or concerned, about the legal limits of a particular agency.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:23:29 PM EDT
It will generate good will and more business. Nicely done.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:24:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 12:25:01 PM EDT by OG10807]
What happens after 20 years?

Set the papers on fire or turn them in to __________?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:24:46 PM EDT
Glad to hear there are a few good dealers left.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:28:20 PM EDT
I have a good FFL like you, too bad he is quitting the business too. Too hard to make a living with a wife & kids.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:28:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OG10807:
What happens after 20 years?

Set the papers on fire or turn them in to __________?



They may be discarded.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:31:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
4473's are audited at the discretion of the government.

What is the length of time you must keep them?



Currently 20 years.

But they are not really auditted at the discretion of the government. They have to have a reason to supoena a 4473.



On the 2nd part not exactly. In northern New England the ATF would copy 4473s listing certain politically incorrect weapons during their yearly 'visit'. So, strictly speaking theres at least once/ year when anything goes.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:40:42 PM EDT
Well done SteyrAug. It's too bad that you're leaving the business.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:41:17 PM EDT
Nice going, SA! You are one of the good guys....
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:51:57 PM EDT

I explained that he could put 3 guns on a 4473 (so long as there wasn't more than one handgun) and that would knock his costs down by 2/3s or a little more than $166 instead of $500. He didn't realize that and thanked me for pointing it out and made arrangements to stop by to drop off the money. He said he'd also "bring the guns", which of course confused me. Up to this point I assumed he was the buyer and found about 20 new toys on some auction site but I figured I'd sort it out when I saw him in person.



Also note you are not limited to 3 long guns on a 4473---------------See #14 "Instructions To Transferor/Seller"...
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:52:19 PM EDT
Good work SA .

Good to know there are still plenty of upstanding dealers out there.

I often use Mark Kubes in this area for transfers and he was the first person who told me about the '3 guns per 4473' which I was not previously aware of.
Because of his honesty and not making the 'easy buck' on my ignorance I now buy from him whenever possible.



Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:53:11 PM EDT
I wish we had FFL Dealers like you in NJ!! Good job.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:13:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Noname:

I explained that he could put 3 guns on a 4473 (so long as there wasn't more than one handgun) and that would knock his costs down by 2/3s or a little more than $166 instead of $500. He didn't realize that and thanked me for pointing it out and made arrangements to stop by to drop off the money. He said he'd also "bring the guns", which of course confused me. Up to this point I assumed he was the buyer and found about 20 new toys on some auction site but I figured I'd sort it out when I saw him in person.



Also note you are not limited to 3 long guns on a 4473---------------See #14 "Instructions To Transferor/Seller"...



I actually did know that, don't know why I forgot.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:20:36 PM EDT
I raise my glass in a toast to you Class act all the way.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:34:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fxntime:
I raise my glass in a toast to you Class act all the way.



+1

Nicely done, Steyr.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 2:20:05 PM EDT
Good on ya, Steyr!
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 2:28:19 PM EDT
Well let's all gather around Steyr and give him a big group hug for his good deed for the day!
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 2:28:22 PM EDT
Cool, but one thing:

Why didn't you at least see what the man had? Not to buy or anything, just to gawk at and see if he had anything interesting. Might have had something really valuable. Just to let him and his grandkid know.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 2:52:29 PM EDT
Best ... True Tales of the FFL ... EVER!
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 3:19:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:
Cool, but one thing:

Why didn't you at least see what the man had? Not to buy or anything, just to gawk at and see if he had anything interesting. Might have had something really valuable. Just to let him and his grandkid know.



I did see a few before we got on the same page.

Mostly old shotguns, a few scoped bolts, etc. But there was a pair of Lugers that looked interesting.

If he had asked my opinion on values, etc. I'd have been more than happy to assist but as he didn't I didn't want to pry.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:23:10 PM EDT
OK, he showed up with the guns, what make, models, vintage were they? Bunch of Lorcins ?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:45:36 PM EDT
I don't care what I've heard about you. You sir, are a fine business man. We need more people like you in this world.

Kris
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