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Posted: 12/29/2005 6:26:41 AM EDT
Many Meth Users Turn to Identity Theft
By GREG RISLING
Associated Press Writer


Stealing mail. Digging through trash. Days spent in front of a computer trying to unlock financial information. All to score methamphetamine.

Authorities are discovering that more and more desperate users of the drug are turning to identity theft to pay for their habit, creating a criminal nexus costing Americans millions of dollars.

The trend is sweeping the West and spreading to other parts of the country, with one hub of activity in the garages and trailer parks of Riverside and San Bernardino counties on the fringe of suburban Los Angeles.

The region was the site of a third of California's nearly 500 meth lab busts in 2004 and is home to the second-highest number of identity theft victims in the nation.

"It's been said the two crimes go together like rats and garbage," said Jack Lucky, a Riverside County prosecutor who nearly became a victim of ID theft himself before his personal information was found at a meth lab.

The connection is posing a major challenge for authorities, who until recently tended to overlook or neglect identity theft evidence at meth labs in favor of pursuing drug charges that are easier to prove and carry stiffer penalties.

"We weren't educated or sophisticated enough to spot what they were doing," said Riverside County sheriff's Sgt. Steve Koller, a narcotics task force member. "It's taken us a while to catch up."

U.S. Sen. Maria Cantwell, D-Wash., has called on the Department of Justice to study the link further and recommend tougher penalties for those convicted of both crimes.

"What we are probably going to find is that there is a stronger connection than we know right now," she said.

No figures were available on just how much the link is costing consumers. Separately, however, meth use and identity theft have each taken their toll.

Nearly 10 million Americans fell victim last year to identity theft, costing $5 billion. Meanwhile, the popularity of methamphetamine has grown, with an estimated 12 million people trying it at least once.

Police said meth users - known as "cranksters" - are drawn to identity theft because they can stay up for days scanning computer records or go "Dumpster diving" for discarded financial information.

A drug dealer recently provided fake identities to a woman in Phoenix who allegedly used them to buy cell phones. She was paid with methamphetamine, and the phones were later used by some of the dealer's associates, authorities said.

Last summer, Georgia authorities tracked at least 20 thieves - known as the "Mailbox Meth Gang" - who cruised housing subdivisions looking for raised flags on mailboxes that could yield checks and bank statements to exchange for meth. Investigators found 14,000 credit card numbers in a laptop computer seized from the gang.

Police said the thieves typically do not target one spot too long and often divide tasks, with different persons stealing the identity, converting it and then using it.

Alameda police Sgt. Anthony Munoz said as many as 85 percent of the identity theft cases he investigates have a connection to methamphetamine use. In one, a defendant pleaded guilty to 56 counts of identity theft and was sentenced to just one year in county jail, he said.

"Those are the type of sentences you get," said Munoz, who backs sentencing enhancements for people convicted of both crimes.

Penalties for identity theft vary from state to state. In California, where legislators are trying to strengthen the laws, identity thieves can face up to three years in prison and a fine up to $10,000.

"We don't have the significant sentences right now that would deter some of these individuals," Riverside County District Attorney Grover Trask said. "It's easy money."

In Arizona, the connection is so prevalent that Attorney General Terry Goddard now sends an investigator with identity theft expertise to meth lab busts.

Lucky, the Riverside County prosecutor, didn't realize personal information had been stolen from his mailbox until a caller said there had been fraudulent activity linked to his credit card.

He got suspicious when the caller requested his Social Security number. When he asked for a supervisor, he was given a toll-free number that was no longer in service.

Identity thieves later applied for credit in his name and the prosecutor didn't discover where his identity ended up until he got a call from a sheriff's deputy.

"I guess we weren't really surprised they found it at a meth lab," Lucky said.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:38:46 AM EDT
I say get a rope...
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:48:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pv74:
I say get a rope...



+1
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:55:06 AM EDT
Sounds like it's time to start executing meth heads as a matter of policy.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:59:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gus:
Sounds like it's time to start executing meth heads as a matter of policy.



So how many do you think we would have to kill to solve the problem? Please compare that with the number killed by the problem itself.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:04:37 AM EDT
Ah the USA. The best place in the world to become a Felon
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:09:14 AM EDT
Honestly, they'd be better off just legalizing meth.
The separate ingredients are legal for Christ's sake, and used by many more people for other purposes.
How stupid can lawmakers get?
~
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:10:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Floppy_833:
Honestly, they'd be better off just legalizing meth.
The separate ingredients are legal for Christ's sake, and used by many more people for other purposes.
How stupid can lawmakers get?
~



It was legal at one time in the US. Most of these problems didn't start until it was made illegal.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:17:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:20:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:

Originally Posted By Floppy_833:
Honestly, they'd be better off just legalizing meth.
The separate ingredients are legal for Christ's sake, and used by many more people for other purposes.
How stupid can lawmakers get?
~



The same could be said about murder.



Nobody that I know of has ever suggested that any law be changed to allow anyone to cause harm to anyone else. (except silly prohibitionists who never bothered to read anything on the subject and were just looking to set up a straw man argument.)
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:20:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By gus:
Sounds like it's time to start executing meth heads as a matter of policy.



So how many do you think we would have to kill to solve the problem? Please compare that with the number killed by the problem itself.



The number would be about the same; they just wouldn't be out there stealing shit and sitting in jail for 20 years before they killed themselves.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:24:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 7:25:58 AM EDT by gus]

Originally Posted By Oslow:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By gus:
Sounds like it's time to start executing meth heads as a matter of policy.



So how many do you think we would have to kill to solve the problem? Please compare that with the number killed by the problem itself.



The number would be about the same; they just wouldn't be out there stealing shit and sitting in jail for 20 years before they killed themselves.




Exactly. Think of it as a pro-active measure to keep them from ripping people off. They're already dead, what's the difference?


ETA: I'm pro-legalization, BTW. But I despise theives no matter what their excuse.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:24:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:26:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Oslow:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By gus:
Sounds like it's time to start executing meth heads as a matter of policy.



So how many do you think we would have to kill to solve the problem? Please compare that with the number killed by the problem itself.



The number would be about the same; they just wouldn't be out there stealing shit and sitting in jail for 20 years before they killed themselves.



I didn't ask you whether the numbers were "the same". I asked you what the numbers were. If you had been able to supply the numbers, I could have seen for myself whether they are "about the same". I take it you really don't have a clue.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:29:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:

My point was, the implements for murder are almost always legal too. I was attempting to illustrate absurdity with further absurdity. If meth was legal the losers who use it would still steal from me and you in order to buy it, rather than working.



Then why didn't that sort of thing happen before the drugs were made illegal? Why doesn't it happen for alcohol and tobacco?


Know any tweakers who work?


Yep. Lots.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:29:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By Oslow:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By gus:
Sounds like it's time to start executing meth heads as a matter of policy.



So how many do you think we would have to kill to solve the problem? Please compare that with the number killed by the problem itself.



The number would be about the same; they just wouldn't be out there stealing shit and sitting in jail for 20 years before they killed themselves.



I didn't ask you whether the numbers were "the same". I asked you what the numbers were. If you had been able to supply the numbers, I could have seen for myself whether they are "about the same". I take it you really don't have a clue.



Curse you Oslow, for not knowing exactly how many people a theoritical action would affect.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:30:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:

My point was, the implements for murder are almost always legal too. I was attempting to illustrate absurdity with further absurdity. If meth was legal the losers who use it would still steal from me and you in order to buy it, rather than working.



Then why didn't that sort of thing happen before the drugs were made illegal? Why doesn't it happen for alcohol and tobacco?


Know any tweakers who work?


Yep. Lots.



As in meth users?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:30:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:30:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
Curse you Oslow, for not knowing exactly how many people a theoritical action would affect.



If you are recommending public policy it is generally a good idea to have some modest clue about the facts. That applies across the board to gun policy, drug policy, etc., etc.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:32:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:

My point was, the implements for murder are almost always legal too. I was attempting to illustrate absurdity with further absurdity. If meth was legal the losers who use it would still steal from me and you in order to buy it, rather than working.



Then why didn't that sort of thing happen before the drugs were made illegal? Why doesn't it happen for alcohol and tobacco?


Know any tweakers who work?


Yep. Lots.



As in meth users?



Yep. College students looking to get a boost for studying exams is one category. US Air Force pilots is another.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:32:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Know any tweakers who work?


Yep. Lots.



Why doesn't that surprise me in the least?



You were aware that there was a US Navy pilot in my family?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:40:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Know any tweakers who work?


Yep. Lots.



Why doesn't that surprise me in the least?



You were aware that there was a US Navy pilot in my family?



That information does not reassure me about our nation's defense...

Nick
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:46:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:59:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:
Yep. College students looking to get a boost for studying exams is one category. US Air Force pilots is another.


You know Air Force pilots, people that either are actively, or potentially defending this Nation, that are tweakers? Fantastic.



Maybe you weren't aware that the US Air Force has been giving meth to pilots routinely for decades now. They do it to help them stay awake on long missions.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:02:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 8:04:20 AM EDT by SmilingBandit]

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:
Yep. College students looking to get a boost for studying exams is one category. US Air Force pilots is another.


You know Air Force pilots, people that either are actively, or potentially defending this Nation, that are tweakers? Fantastic.



Maybe you weren't aware that the US Air Force has been giving meth to pilots routinely for decades now. They do it to help them stay awake on long missions.



The "go pills" that they use are not the same things that your friends smoke.

ETA: Dextroamphetamine, commercially sold as Dexedrine, is not what people are cooking up in their basements.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:04:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:
Yep. College students looking to get a boost for studying exams is one category. US Air Force pilots is another.


You know Air Force pilots, people that either are actively, or potentially defending this Nation, that are tweakers? Fantastic.



Maybe you weren't aware that the US Air Force has been giving meth to pilots routinely for decades now. They do it to help them stay awake on long missions.



The "go pills" that they use are not the same things that your friends smoke.



Yep, and they're not ruining people's retirement by emptying their bank accounts to get it.

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:08:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Floppy_833:
Honestly, they'd be better off just legalizing meth.
The separate ingredients are legal for Christ's sake, and used by many more people for other purposes.
How stupid can lawmakers get?
~



OK GREAT idea,

YOU FUCKING get to pay for their dental and health insurance though! Count me and MY wallet out.

Do a search for Meth Mouth to start...
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:11:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By watersniper:

Originally Posted By Floppy_833:
Honestly, they'd be better off just legalizing meth.
The separate ingredients are legal for Christ's sake, and used by many more people for other purposes.
How stupid can lawmakers get?
~



OK GREAT idea,

YOU FUCKING get to pay for their dental and health insurance though! Count me and MY wallet out.

Do a search for Meth Mouth to start...



Why didn't we have that problem before it was made illegal?

And do you think it ought to be illegal to do things that damage your teeth? Is that a sensible justification for a law?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:12:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:
You know Air Force pilots, people that either are actively, or potentially defending this Nation, that are tweakers? Fantastic.


-I don't--but I know air force pilots who drink alcohol and smoke cigarettes. Is that different, other than in being legal?
-----
There's only two things wrong with narcotics being illegal: the philosophical principle, and the practical results.
....The philosophical principle is that if you want to put drugs in your own body, the government has no right to stop you--the government does not own your body.
.....The practical results have been a near-total failure; lots of money has been spent on police and jail cells yet only once has the supply of drugs in the US ever been shown to have been impacted by law enforcement efforts:
www.slate.com/id/2098109
~
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:13:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:

The "go pills" that they use are not the same things that your friends smoke.



I am boringly sober, but thanks for the stupid ad hominem, anyway.


ETA: Dextroamphetamine, commercially sold as Dexedrine, is not what people are cooking up in their basements.


The difference is minor at best. Same effects.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:14:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gus:
Yep, and they're not ruining people's retirement by emptying their bank accounts to get it.




So why didn't this happen before it was outlawed?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:22:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By gus:
Yep, and they're not ruining people's retirement by emptying their bank accounts to get it.




So why didn't this happen before it was outlawed?




Read my earlier post - I'm all for legalization. I'm also all for executing thieves, no matter what their "excuse".
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:23:09 AM EDT
but hey, drugs should be legal right? Then they'd all have jobs?
gimme a break..
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:29:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gus:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By gus:
Yep, and they're not ruining people's retirement by emptying their bank accounts to get it.




So why didn't this happen before it was outlawed?




Read my earlier post - I'm all for legalization. I'm also all for executing thieves, no matter what their "excuse".



There is no excuse for the nazi dope.

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:33:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sixgunsblazing:
but hey, drugs should be legal right? Then they'd all have jobs?
gimme a break..


-No they wouldn't all have jobs. But not having a job is not illegal--and drugs would cost a lot less, decreasing crime. Drug dealers have no shame, they'd sell lawn furniture if they could beat Wal-Mart's prices on it.
-------
There's a few common arguments that are often made against drug legalization:
1) people don't need drugs,
2) you might hurt yourself using drugs, or
3) even worse, you might hurt someone else.
......
These sound a lot like the same reasons that anti-gunners say that we shouldn't be allowed to own firearms, don't they?
~
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:41:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:

The "go pills" that they use are not the same things that your friends smoke.



I am boringly sober, but thanks for the stupid ad hominem, anyway.


ETA: Dextroamphetamine, commercially sold as Dexedrine, is not what people are cooking up in their basements.


The difference is minor at best. Same effects.



A quick reminder of what was earlier said:

TBK: Know any tweakers who work?
You: Yep. Lots.
Me: As in meth users?
You: Yep. College students looking to get a boost for studying exams is one category. US Air Force pilots is another.

So you admit to knowing tweakers who work, but when I mention them, it's verboden.

Got it.

PS: I have never seen an Air Force pilot standing in the median of the interstate on a cold night wearing shorts and a t-shirt ranting about God's absolving ray making his face hole leak. So I'm inclined to believe that there are some differences between the two.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:47:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:

The "go pills" that they use are not the same things that your friends smoke.



I am boringly sober, but thanks for the stupid ad hominem, anyway.


ETA: Dextroamphetamine, commercially sold as Dexedrine, is not what people are cooking up in their basements.


The difference is minor at best. Same effects.



A quick reminder of what was earlier said:

TBK: Know any tweakers who work?
You: Yep. Lots.
Me: As in meth users?
You: Yep. College students looking to get a boost for studying exams is one category. US Air Force pilots is another.

So you admit to knowing tweakers who work, but when I mention them, it's verboden.

Got it.



Where did you get this? No, not "verboten". Just pointing out that they are using essentially the same drug.



PS: I have never seen an Air Force pilot standing in the median of the interstate on a cold night wearing shorts and a t-shirt ranting about God's absolving ray making his face hole leak. So I'm inclined to believe that there are some differences between the two.



The amount of use is the major difference. You know, just like the difference between one person who has two beers and another who is a skid row alcoholic. Same alcohol in both cases. Same basic chemical for both the Air Force pilot and the lunatic on the interstate median.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:08:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sixgunsblazing:
but hey, drugs should be legal right? Then they'd all have jobs?
gimme a break..



Our policy produces about the lowest rates of employment and the highest rates of crime among addicts. Most addicts were gainfully employed before these drugs were made illegal. Even the DEA admits that most of the people who use illegal drugs, even today, are gainfully employed and have no particular problems with their use.

Other countries have found that different policies can reduce drug-related crime by about 80 percent and that most addicts will stop committing crime and become gainfully employed if they are managed properly.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:12:01 AM EDT
Hitler was on meth, tweaked every day during WW2. Back in the good ol' days when it was legal.
http://amphetamines.com/adolf-hitler.html


From 1942, the Nazi leader Adolf Hitler received daily injections of methamphetamine from his personal physician, Dr Theodor Morell. Hitler's ailments have been attributed to everything from tertiary syphilis to Parkinson's disease. But many of The Führer's clinical signs and symptoms may have been caused by his exotic drug regimen.

In Hitler's Wehrmacht, methamphetamine tablets branded as Pervitin were liberally distributed to German fighting troops throughout the War. Amphetamines are "power drugs" that reduce fatigue, heighten aggression, and diminish human warmth and empathy.

How could Hitler continue to exert such a grip on the German people until the last days of the War? Talking to a prison psychologist while awaiting trial, ex-Governor General of Poland Hans Frank (1900-1946) describes Hitler's charismatic effect on him...



Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:20:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
Hitler was on meth, tweaked every day during WW2. Back in the good ol' days when it was legal.
http://amphetamines.com/adolf-hitler.html


From 1942, the Nazi leader Adolf Hitler received daily injections of methamphetamine from his personal physician, Dr Theodor Morell. Hitler's ailments have been attributed to everything from tertiary syphilis to Parkinson's disease. But many of The Führer's clinical signs and symptoms may have been caused by his exotic drug regimen.

In Hitler's Wehrmacht, methamphetamine tablets branded as Pervitin were liberally distributed to German fighting troops throughout the War. Amphetamines are "power drugs" that reduce fatigue, heighten aggression, and diminish human warmth and empathy.

How could Hitler continue to exert such a grip on the German people until the last days of the War? Talking to a prison psychologist while awaiting trial, ex-Governor General of Poland Hans Frank (1900-1946) describes Hitler's charismatic effect on him...






The History Channel did a show on Hitler's doctor and went through how he got speed injections every day. The doctor was a well-known quack who apparently first treated Hitler for syphilis (in the days when there was no cure) and became his confidant.

The German Army also made extensive use of speed during the blitzkrieg. I imagine that must have been a pretty miserable experience. Imagine yourself having to go through a war like that, spending the whole time amped up on huge amounts of coffee to keep you going.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:41:56 AM EDT
I hate meth and what it does to people. It is the worst drug problem in the country. I knew a lot of people that got wrapped up in it when I was younger, the majority of them are dead now. It destroys your mind. It may give you the advantage of being awake and alert for days, weeks or months on end, but it kills your brain and body in the process. Imagine being up for 3 days all wired and hallucinating from sleep deprivation and feeling like you got kicked in the balls for 5 hours coming down from it.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:43:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 52brandon:
I hate meth and what it does to people. It is the worst drug problem in the country. I knew a lot of people that got wrapped up in it when I was younger, the majority of them are dead now. It destroys your mind. It may give you the advantage of being awake and alert for days, weeks or months on end, but it kills your brain and body in the process. Imagine being up for 3 days all wired and hallucinating from sleep deprivation and feeling like you got kicked in the balls for 5 hours coming down from it.



I agree with you that abusing it is nasty business. But, having said that, alcohol still wins all the prizes for problems.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:46:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:51:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By 52brandon:
I hate meth and what it does to people. It is the worst drug problem in the country. I knew a lot of people that got wrapped up in it when I was younger, the majority of them are dead now. It destroys your mind. It may give you the advantage of being awake and alert for days, weeks or months on end, but it kills your brain and body in the process. Imagine being up for 3 days all wired and hallucinating from sleep deprivation and feeling like you got kicked in the balls for 5 hours coming down from it.



I agree with you that abusing it is nasty business. But, having said that, alcohol still wins all the prizes for problems.



Perhaps because it's legal and readily available?



Nope, it has always won all the major prizes, regardless of what the laws were on any of these drugs at any point in history. That's why, when all these drugs were entirely legal, there were major public campaigns to outlaw alcohol but no such campaigns to outlaw the currently illegal drugs.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:17:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:
Nope, it has always won all the major prizes, regardless of what the laws were on any of these drugs at any point in history. That's why, when all these drugs were entirely legal, there were major public campaigns to outlaw alcohol but no such campaigns to outlaw the currently illegal drugs.

I am not sure how things are where you are from wolfman. But if you were to come to Phoenix and go on a "tweaker tour" with me, I think you might just change your mind about that.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:29:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 52brandon:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:
Nope, it has always won all the major prizes, regardless of what the laws were on any of these drugs at any point in history. That's why, when all these drugs were entirely legal, there were major public campaigns to outlaw alcohol but no such campaigns to outlaw the currently illegal drugs.

I am not sure how things are where you are from wolfman. But if you were to come to Phoenix and go on a "tweaker tour" with me, I think you might just change your mind about that.



If you investigate the tweakers, and others like them, you find that the problem isn't in the tweaking. The problem is in the fact that they consume anything and everything. Very rarely will you find one of these people who hasn't abused multiple drugs and would just abuse something else (probably alcohol) tomorrow if speed disappeared.

Different drugs go through different phases of popularity, particularly in local areas. But, by all the stats, alcohol still wins all the prizes for destroying lives. And the comparison isn't even close. Never has been. For example, by some estimates, about 40 percent of all the hospital care in the US is for reasons related to alcohol. Alcohol kills about ten times as many people as all the illegal drugs combined, etc., etc., etc. You would be hard pressed to find any stats on overall social damage where meth beats alcohol at any point in history.

That's not to say that tweakers are doing something good, or that they are pleasant to be around. Being around them sucks just like being around people who are continually drunk.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:34:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:39:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:

My point was, the implements for murder are almost always legal too. I was attempting to illustrate absurdity with further absurdity. If meth was legal the losers who use it would still steal from me and you in order to buy it, rather than working.



Then why didn't that sort of thing happen before the drugs were made illegal? Why doesn't it happen for alcohol and tobacco?


Know any tweakers who work?


Yep. Lots.



Boy there's some breaking news. wolfman97 knows lots of dope fiends.


Who'd a thunk it.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:45:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:
That's not to say that tweakers are doing something good, or that they are pleasant to be around. Being around them sucks just like being around people who are continually drunk.



I'm having a real hard time figuring out what your point is--why do you seem to be on an endless campaign to justify and act as an apologist for this crap?



When did I do that? I advocate a realistic view and approach to it. You know -- understanding what is really happening before running off on a big crusade.

You know, I don't like cigars. I think they are smelly, disgusting, and dangerous, and I can't see why anyone wants to walk around with a burning turd in their mouth. But, at the same time, I recognize that it would be a serious mistake to make tobacco illegal -- even for the people who never use it. Get how that works?


You obviously know we don't pass laws on this site and you are highly unlikely to change anyone's mind if the "hearts and minds" thing is your motivation. Ultra-conservative gun owners aren't exactly ripe for change--especially on something so stupid, potentially destructive, and needless, as drugs. I really don't get it.


The surveys here seem to tell a different story. IIRC, the last several surveys on the site showed a clear majority in favor of changing the drug laws. And I have personally heard from a number of active narcotics agents, drug task force prosecutors, DEA agents, and others who have told me that these conversations changed their minds. Nationwide, the surveys also show increasing support for changing the drug laws in a number of areas. Just FYI, a good deal of that was due to a concerted and deliberate effort to use the Internet to get the word out.

So I would disagree with you on that.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 11:12:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 11:28:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:
So I would disagree with you on that.



Okay. Thanks for the explanation. You aren't breaking any rules, or causing any problems, so I was only asking out of curiosity, BTW.

As a matter of fact, I would like to see the laws changed too--if someone runs into me on the road, and they are obviously drunk, I would like to be able to execute them right there, on the spot. Same with drugs, though that is less obvious. Ain't gonna happen, but it's nice to think about, and leaves me with the warm fuzzies every time I do.



I am campaigning for a law that would allow me to summarily shoot any SOB who dents my car. If they touch my fender, I get out and blast them.

I am not for any law that would allow just anyone to do this because that would be bad public policy. If you are going to authorize someone to summarily shoot people down in the street without a trial then the executioner has to be the rare person with the brains and good judgment to shoot only those who richly deserve it. I have looked around extensively and I am the only person I have ever run across who has the wisdom and fortitude to do summary executions in a fair and honest manner.

I will not do this until the law is passed, of course, but we can hope that Congress will take it up soon.
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