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Posted: 12/29/2005 2:25:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 2:56:13 AM EDT by No_Expert]
We've all read the various stories about bad things that PayPal does... google "PayPal Alternatives" and read the horror stories. (same with eBay)

Then you read the various stories on ARFCOM where people have had their PayPal accounts frozen, cancelled, and etc for "firearms transactions"... of perfectly LEGAL transactions that did not include actual firearmes...just accesories or parts. Many people have posted that they wish ARFCOM would stop using PayPal for memberships and switch to an alternative electronic payment method. Well, as I was researching various alternatives today.... I found AlertPay (AlertPay.com) Their unacceptable uses:

ACTIVITIES NOT ALLOWED

Your information and your activities, including payments and receipts of payments, through the AlertPay shall not:

1.Involve the sale of counterfeit or stolen items.
2.Be misleading, false, or inaccurate.
3.Infringe on any third party's copyright, patent, trademark, trade secret or other property rights or rights of publicity or privacy.
4.Consist of providing yourself a cash advance from your credit card or bank account, or helping others to do so.
5.Contain child pornography.
6.Be defamatory, trade libelous, unlawfully threatening or unlawfully harassing.
7.Violate any law, statute, ordinance, contract or regulation, including, but not limited to, those governing financial services, consumer protection, unfair competition, anti-discrimination, or false advertising.
8.Create liability for us or cause us to lose (in whole or in part) the services of our ISP's or other suppliers. If you use, or attempt to use the Service for purposes other than sending and receiving payments and managing your account, including but not limited to tampering, hacking, modifying or otherwise corrupting the security or functionality of Service, your account will be terminated and you will be subject to damages and other penalties, including criminal prosecution where available.
9.Involve spamming


Compare that with eBay's policy here
Which, not only does it lit things that are illegal anyway, it adds crap such as magazine limits, parts to "assault weapons", and many otherwise LEGAL transactions even between dealers or C&R holders.

Now, according to the "New Jersey Coalition for Self Defense", located appropriately in the People's Republik of New Jersey, one of the poor states still "behind the curtain" when it comes to gun laws, Paypal is not "anti-gun" for their actions and stance on firearms. I would disagree. Their logic is flawed, they say that:

PayPal is no more "anti-gun" than they are "anti-smoking", or "anti-drinking" because they also decline to permit transactions in tobacco or alcohol products.

Which to me is exactly what they are, if they are forbidding the use of their SERVICE for legal transactions.

So, I think I'll add a Poll.

No Expert

Edit for typos
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 2:33:28 AM EDT
Its there policy. Doesnt make them anti anything. I think it helps cover there ass in the event something happens.
Dont get me wrong, it sucks and they could be making alot more mney if they allowed it, and I still wouldnt use them if they did allow guns things, btu I dont think it makes them anti gun.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 2:39:29 AM EDT
That comparison to alcohol and tobacco is idiotic. The only way for it to be true would be for paypal to shitcan purchases for T-shirts, bottle openers, things like this, or other things related to alcohol and tobacco (or other things...).

Those supposedly pro gun idiots have probably worked real hard to compromise their way to defenselessness. Fuck 'em.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 2:45:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FieroLoki:
Its there policy. Doesnt make them anti anything. I think it helps cover there ass in the event something happens.
Dont get me wrong, it sucks and they could be making alot more mney if they allowed it, and I still wouldnt use them if they did allow guns things, btu I dont think it makes them anti gun.



That's a crap argument. Them needing to cover their asses for gun sales is bullshit. All they do is facilitate the transfer of money. Might as well hold Western Union accountable when someone uses a money order to buy a gun. Hell, the US treasury prints the money used in drug deals. Pay-Pal has absolutely no responsibility over the types of purchases made. E-Bay, has their own rules which became PayPal's rules. Ebay may need somewhat stricter rules, but it is still not really their responsibility to make sure buyers and sellers follow the law regarding a perfectly legal product.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 2:51:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:

Originally Posted By FieroLoki:
Its there policy. Doesnt make them anti anything. I think it helps cover there ass in the event something happens.
Dont get me wrong, it sucks and they could be making alot more mney if they allowed it, and I still wouldnt use them if they did allow guns things, btu I dont think it makes them anti gun.



That's a crap argument. Them needing to cover their asses for gun sales is bullshit. All they do is facilitate the transfer of money. Might as well hold Western Union accountable when someone uses a money order to buy a gun. Hell, the US treasury prints the money used in drug deals. Pay-Pal has absolutely no responsibility over the types of purchases made. E-Bay, has their own rules which became PayPal's rules. Ebay may need somewhat stricter rules, but it is still not really their responsibility to make sure buyers and sellers follow the law regarding a perfectly legal product.




All it boils down to is, its there policy. Either one, get a job there, work your way up and change it from within, two, start your own paypal "type" site and allow whatever, or three, deal with it.
I still dont think it makes them anit-gun, just stupid for not doing it and missing out on the cash cow it could be for them.

*and I still hate them*
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 3:31:47 AM EDT
PayPal and eBay are GOOFY; but aren't they based in Kalifornia?

What do you expect?

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:10:51 AM EDT
Paypal and Ebay are both anti-gun. Use the excuse of political correctness if you want but it all boils down to the same thing.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:19:08 AM EDT
Papal booted me for selling a vertical foregrip!

I called when I got the email saying that my acct. had been closed but not disclosing the reason.

The Rep told me because it was a gun accessory!

I think if I worded the auction different I might have gotten away with it.

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:14:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JarheadChiro:
Papal booted me for selling a vertical foregrip!

I called when I got the email saying that my acct. had been closed but not disclosing the reason.

The Rep told me because it was a gun accessory!

I think if I worded the auction different I might have gotten away with it.




Exactly the point! They list "assault weapon accessories" as verbotten! magazine limits of 10 rds, In theory, they could cancel you for selling a 5 rd AR15 magazine cause it is an "assault weapon accessory".

They take a percentage of your sale for "handling the transaction"....but they have absurd limitations on LEGAL transactions. And that, makes them "anti-gun". No wonder New Jersey is screwed if their "Coalition for Self Defense" can't see that.

No Expert
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:39:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FieroLoki:
Its there their policy. Doesnt make them anti anything. I think it helps cover there their ass in the event something happens.
Dont get me wrong, it sucks and they could be making alot more mney if they allowed it, and I still wouldnt use them if they did allow guns things, but I dont think it makes them anti gun.



When they cancel accounts because of lawful sales without warning, withhold funds, and fail to make refunds, they're anti-gun. The fact that the entire company is screwed up is one thing, but the firearms crap is what led me to cancel a 5 year account with hundreds of fees paid to them over the years.



sorry for the Grammar Nazi part, but come on, three times in two posts??



Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:41:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JarheadChiro:
Papal booted me for selling a vertical foregrip!

I called when I got the email saying that my acct. had been closed but not disclosing the reason.

The Rep told me because it was a gun accessory!

I think if I worded the auction different I might have gotten away with it.




Should have used the word "air soft" in the title or description somewhere.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:55:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 6:00:57 PM EDT by unkempt1]

Originally Posted By JarheadChiro:
Papal booted me for selling a vertical foregrip!

I called when I got the email saying that my acct. had been closed but not disclosing the reason.

The Rep told me because it was a gun accessory!

I think if I worded the auction different I might have gotten away with it.




"Airsoft"

ETA:Damn it read the whole thread first
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:58:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Oslow:
PayPal and eBay are GOOFY; but aren't they based in Kalifornia?

What do you expect?



Ebay is from kali
Paypal is a proud Omaha Ne company
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:59:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By www-glock19-com:

Originally Posted By Oslow:
PayPal and eBay are GOOFY; but aren't they based in Kalifornia?

What do you expect?



Ebay is from kali
Paypal is a proud Omaha Ne company


Ebay bought Paypal about two years ago
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:03:35 PM EDT
PayPal is a financial institution.

Just like my bank.

How pissed would you guys be if you wrote a check to Wal Mart for a box of ammo, and your bank refused to process the check because your purchase was gun related?

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:05:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GonzoAR15-1:
PayPal is a financial institution.

Just like my bank.

How pissed would you guys be if you wrote a check to Wal Mart for a box of ammo, and your bank refused to process the check because your purchase was gun related?




That'd be great, the money would stay in my account.
I'd head back to Wal-mart and write a check for some more.



Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:08:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LUGERMAN:
Paypal and Ebay are both anti-gun. Use the excuse of political correctness if you want but it all boils down to the same thing.



Or, more correctly, (since PayPal and EBay are both corporate entities without self determinate capability), the staff or directors that created the policy are anti-gun.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:17:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Justa_TXguy:

Originally Posted By GonzoAR15-1:
PayPal is a financial institution.

Just like my bank.

How pissed would you guys be if you wrote a check to Wal Mart for a box of ammo, and your bank refused to process the check because your purchase was gun related?




That'd be great, the money would stay in my account.
I'd head back to Wal-mart and write a check for some more.






Meanwhile, Wal Mart takes you to court, gets a judgment and tripple damages for bad check liability, and (if we're to be truly parallel to PayPal), your bank freezes your ENTIRE checking account, causing your mortgage, insurance, and child support checks to bounce and then they tell you they're closing the account and you need to fill out long paperwork to get your own money out of it.

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:28:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By No_Expert:

Originally Posted By JarheadChiro:
Papal booted me for selling a vertical foregrip!

I called when I got the email saying that my acct. had been closed but not disclosing the reason.

The Rep told me because it was a gun accessory!

I think if I worded the auction different I might have gotten away with it.




Exactly the point! They list "assault weapon accessories" as verbotten! magazine limits of 10 rds, In theory, they could cancel you for selling a 5 rd AR15 magazine cause it is an "assault weapon accessory".

They take a percentage of your sale for "handling the transaction"....but they have absurd limitations on LEGAL transactions. And that, makes them "anti-gun". No wonder New Jersey is screwed if their "Coalition for Self Defense" can't see that.

No Expert



If these companies don't want the added liability of any involvement with firearms and their accessories in this over officious and litigious society - that is their business policy. Don't read anti-gun, find it as written policy any where and put it here.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:43:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 6:57:06 PM EDT by Rovert]

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:
That comparison to alcohol and tobacco is idiotic. The only way for it to be true would be for paypal to shitcan purchases for T-shirts, bottle openers, things like this, or other things related to alcohol and tobacco (or other things...).

Those supposedly pro gun idiots have probably worked real hard to compromise their way to defenselessness. Fuck 'em.


Since I'm the "idiot" who wrote that piece, on behalf of the NJCSD and our membership, I'll take this opportunity to give you the opportunity to defend your position with facts.

I assure you that our position is viable, based not on reactionary statements, ignorance and emotionalism as displayed here, but a careful examination of the facts. If you go to our bulletin board, perhaps you'll find yet more information researched by our Editor (reposted below) that will substantiate, (I reiterate, by facts) our entirely valid position.

Until you can find for us a countervailing argument or proof that PayPal contributes to anti-gun organizations, the only point here that rings hollow is yours. When you do, then I will promptly change our policy and make a statement regarding same.

As to those of us who "compromised our way" into having no rights, I significantly resent your asinine statement, as the situation we have here is a legacy of the "leadership" shown by "other" gun rights groups who laid the cornerstone of capitulation decades before we came into existence. It's because we see the failings and flaws in their strategy and lack of creativity that we were founded.

Perhaps one or two of the members of our organization who are also ARFCOMers will chime in here and speak their mind about the legacy of capitulation and my position and statements regarding the legacy of incompetence that we've inherited.

In the meantime, I would point out to you that as President of the organization, I and our members are DOING something about trying to change things for the better here to stop the creep of the cancer from reaching YOU.

Instead of telling us to go fuck ourselves, I'd be significantly more impressed if you'd make a donation and become a member of our fine organization, so that we can continue our mission, and I'm sure you'll feel better about yourself for doing something positive.


You may or may not know that Ebay wholly acquired Paypal in 4Q 2002 in a $1.5 billion transaction. As such, Ebay policy (such as no guns) is Paypal policy.

One aspect of liability that Robert didn't mention was the complication of facilitating interstate commerce. Guns are the most highly regulated consumer good in the country. The US is a patchwork of laws and regulations and many states have given Ebay a lot of problems about gun parts. Just within the last week, Ebay had a settlement with NY state over stun guns. I don't blame Ebay for this as much as I blame the patchwork nature of gun laws in the US. Like it or not, it is a smart business decision for them to limit their need to defend themselves against over enthusiastic prosecuters like Elliot Spitzer.

So Ebay shies away from guns to limit their liability and expense. Does that necessarily make them anti-gun?

Ebay has a PAC for contributing to politicians. You can go on to OpenSecrets.org and look at political donations above $200 that have been reported to the FEC. They have each and every politician that Ebay PAC has donated to. I then found the candidates NRA ratings either at the NRA or at http://www.issues2002.org/ (a few I had to google for)

Let's look forward. For the 2006 election cycle, so far Ebay PAC has donated to:

66% GOP 34% DNC

House
Boucher, Rick (D-VA) NRA A+ rating
Cannon, Chris (R-UT) NRA A+ rating
Cooper, Jim (D-TN) NRA B- rating
Cubin, Barbara (R-WY) NRA A+ rating
Dreier, David (R-CA) NRA A rating
Eshoo, Anna (D-CA) NRA F rating (Ebay's HQ is in Eshoo's district)
Feeney, Tom (R-FL) NRA A+ rating
Fortenberry, Jeffrey Lane (R-NE) NRA A rating
Hart, Melissa (R-PA) NRA A rating
Lofgren, Zoe (D-CA) NRA F rating
Matheson, Jim (D-UT) NRA A rating
Northup, Anne M (R-KY) NRA A rating
Pickering, Charles Jr (R-MS) NRA A+ rating
Smith, Adam (D-WA) NRA B rating
Terry, Lee (R-NE) NRA A rating
Towns, Edolphus (D-NY) NRA F rating
Upton, Fred (R-MI) NRA B rating

Senate



Cornyn, John (R-TX) NRA A rating
Ensign, John (R-NV) NRA A rating
Hagel, Chuck (R-NE) NRA A rating
Hutchison, Kay Bailey (R-TX) NRA life member (can't find NRA rating)
Nelson, Ben (D-NE) NRA A rating


So on the whole, Ebay PAC has been donating to pro-gun candidates in the 2006 election cycle at a very high rate. For a company that has nothing to do with the gun industry, I'd say that their funded candidates are remarkably pro-gun and the overall pattern of their donations do not begin to demonstrate an anti-gun corporate bias.

No, I didn't look at past cycles because frankly, I don't have the time. In 2004, they had a similar 2:1 GOP:DNC contribution ratio. But I'm less concerned with the past than I am with the present and future. Honestly, I like what I see and until proven otherwise call bullshit on anyone who says Ebay/Paypal are anti-gun.


Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:43:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 6:45:54 PM EDT by DebA]
Pay Pal's politics

Ed. - (This is a link to the content of the post above.)
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:45:07 PM EDT
From what I understand, Paypal and Ebay both have their nazi policies to cover their asses from lawsuits. They stand to lose more money from frivilous lawsuits than they would make selling such things.

They were sponsors of the SHOT Show for God's sake. They attended last years show!
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:48:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 6:53:56 PM EDT by remedy]
The only reason why PayPal and eBay have anti-gun LIKE policies is because they do not want to be held liable in the transaction where someone buys a gun or magazine that is illegal in their state and commits a crime. They simply don't have the resources available to monitor every single gun related transaction to make sure the seller and buyer are following state laws and so forth. On a site like eBay, and a transaction processor like PayPal, their volumes are INSANE. They close more auctions and process more payments in a 24 hour period than you can possibly imagine. They cannot be called anti-gun simply because they do not have the resources and time to monitor all of those auctions. There isn't even software that could be written to govern the sale of firearms on eBay. Trust me, I've thought about it, and debated it with some other MCSDs. Paypal is the same way, they don't want to have to hire thousands or spend millions on software to monitor transactions that may be paying for illegal or stolen firearms and related accessories like magazines. But, as long as you keep your descriptions on the down-low through PayPal, you are fine. I've been selling mags on there for years, and other gun parts. Most people know to not actually say the gun name/type, or magazine whatever.

It's simple business really. They will be investigated and found to be liable in assisting an illegal transaction.


- rem
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:53:50 PM EDT
Ah yes New Jersey, where your group is so effective




as for paypal, there is a big difference from refusing to sell or fund the purchase of an "Evil Assault Weapon" or firearm and refusting to allow the transaction of an item legal in ANY STATE such as a sight or sling just because it may be for an AR15, while allowing the same thing for a politically correct hunting rifle.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:04:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:17:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sixgunsblazing:
Ah yes New Jersey, where your group is so effective
hr

What's happened in NJ is coming to a state near you soon. When it does, I hope you walk as good as you talk.

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:21:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 7:26:02 PM EDT by Rovert]

Originally Posted By sixgunsblazing:
Ah yes New Jersey, where your group is so effective



There's only so much an underfunded organization can in three years of existence, especially when fellow patriots from other states mock us from afar and refuse to donate, while watching New Jersey go further down the drain, thinking that they're safe... until the Smart Gun law comes to THEIR state.

Hear those footsteps behind you? They're heading West from New Jersey.

Sleep tight.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 4:23:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sixgunsblazing:
Ah yes New Jersey, where your group is so effective




as for paypal, there is a big difference from refusing to sell or fund the purchase of an "Evil Assault Weapon" or firearm and refusting to allow the transaction of an item legal in ANY STATE such as a sight or sling just because it may be for an AR15, while allowing the same thing for a politically correct hunting rifle.



Are you in a "group"? Do you make regular donations to it? DO you KNOW anything about NJCSD?

You sir are nothing more than a rock thrower. YUCK, YUCK, NJ big joke, NY big joke, CA big joke - well we get soooo much help from the NRA. We, the NJCSD, don't have the funds of the NRA (Life Member over 20 yrs.), GOA or CCKBA - but if we did, there would be a much stronger showing for a three year old organization surrounded by liberal/dem fascists and splineless firearms owners oh, and let's not forget the sheeple. I've been defending OUR rights with real time and MONEY to the organizations I belong to - be it NYS or NJS.

Have a Happy New Year.

PS - try a little research and post facts next time. Mocking does nothing but fuel the fire for that day we all may face regarding gun ownership.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 4:43:26 AM EDT
...BTW, from the NRA-ILA, NO MENTION of PAYPAL.


NRA-ILA Fact Sheet on ANTI-GUN POLICY ORGANIZATIONS





National Organizations With Anti-Gun Policies

The following organizations have lent monetary, grassroots or some other type of direct support to anti-gun organizations. In many instances, these organizations lent their name in support of specific campaigns to pass anti-gun legislation such as the March 1995 HCI "Campaign to Protect Sane Gun Laws." Many of these organizations were listed as "Campaign Partners," for having pledged to fight any efforts to repeal the Brady Act and the Clinton "assault weapons" ban. All have officially endorsed anti-gun positions.

AARP
AFL-CIO
Ambulatory Pediatric Association
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Civil Liberties Union
American Academy of Ambulatory Care Nursing
American Medical Women`s Association
American Medical Student Association
American Medical Association
American Association for the Surgery of Trauma
American Trauma Society
American Federation of Teachers
American Association of School Administrators
American Alliance for Rights and Responsibilities
American Medical Association
American Bar Association
American Counseling Association
American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Association for World Health
American Ethical Union
American Nurses Association
American Association of Neurological Surgeons
American Association of Family and Consumer Sciences
American Firearms Association
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
American Jewish Committee
American Trauma Society
American Psychological Association
American Jewish Congress
American Public Health Association
Americans for Democratic Action
Anti-Defamation League
Association of American Medical Colleges
Black Mental Health Alliance
B`nai B`rith
Central Conference of American Rabbis
Children`s Defense Fund
Church of the Brethren
Coalition for Peace Action
Coalition to Stop Gun Violence
College Democrats of America
Committee for the Study of Handgun Misuse & World Peace
Common Cause
Congress of National Black Churches, Inc.
Congress of Neurological Surgeons
Consumer Federation of America
Council of the Great City Schools
Council of Chief State School Officers
Dehere Foundation
Disarm Educational Fund
Environmental Action Foundation
Episcopal Church-Washington Office
Florence and John Shumann Foundation
Friends Committee on National Legislation
General Federation of Women`s Clubs
George Gund Fun
Gray Panthers
H.M. Strong Foundation
Hadassah
Harris Foundation
Hechinger Foundation
Interfaith Neighbors
Int`l Ladies` Garment Workers` Union
Int`l Association of Educators for World Peace
Jewish Labor Committee
Joyce Foundation
Lauder Foundation
Lawrence Foundation
League of Women Voters of the United States*
Lutheran Office for Governmental Affairs, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Manhattan Project II
Mennonite Central Committee-Washington Office
National Safe Kids Campaign
National Association of Police Organizations
National Coalition Against Domestic Violence
National Black Nurses` Association
National Association of Chain Drug Stores
National Network for Youth
National Assembly of National Voluntary Health & Social Welfare Organizations
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People
National Association of School Psychologists
National Association of Counties*
National Association of Pediatric Nurse Associates & Practitioners
National Association of School Safety and Law Enforcement Officers
National Education Association
National Association of Elementary School Principals*
National Association of Public Hospitals
National Coalition Against Domestic Violence
National Association of Secondary School Principals
National Association of Social Workers
National Association of Children`s Hospitals and Related Institutions
National Association of School Psychologists
National Council of La Raza
National Center to Rehabilitate Violent Youth
National Commission for Economic Conversion & Disarmament
National Council of the Churches of Christ in the USA
National Council of Negro Women
National Association of Community Health Centers
National People`s Action
National Education Association*
National League of Cities
National Council on Family Relations
National Council of Jewish Women
National Organization for Women
National Political Congress of Black Women
National Parks and Conservation Association
National Peace Foundation
National Urban League, Inc.
National Parent, Teachers Association*
National Urban Coalition
National SAFE KIDS Campaign
National Organization on Disability
National Spinal Cord Injury Association
NETWORK: A National Catholic Social Justice Lobby
Ortenberg Foundation
Peace Action
People for the American Way
Physicians for Social Responsibility
Police Foundation
Project on Demilitarization and Democracy
Public Citizen
SaferWorld
Society of Critical Care Medicine
Southern Christian Leadership Conference
The Council of the Great City Schools
The Synergetic Society
20/20 Vision
U.S. Catholic Conference, Dept. of Social Development
Union of American Hebrew Congregations
Unitarian Universalist Association
United States Catholic Conference
United Methodist Church, General Board & Church Society
United Church of Christ, Office for Church in Society*
United States Conference of Mayors
War and Peace Foundation
Women Strike for Peace
Women`s National Democratic Club
Women`s Action for New Directions (WAND)
Women`s Int`l League for Peace and Freedom
World Spiritual Assembly, Inc.
YWCA of the U.S.A.

*The national organization only endorses federal legislation.

Link Posted: 12/30/2005 6:31:12 AM EDT

Link Posted: 12/30/2005 7:05:20 AM EDT
I'm going to contact Paypal. Their organization is a gun accessory. You know Paypal will just immediately ban them for an "investigation".

Let's see if they like getting banned and how progun they feel paypal is after that.

Link Posted: 12/30/2005 7:18:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tannim:
I'm going to contact Paypal. Their organization is a gun accessory. You know Paypal will just immediately ban them for an "investigation".

Let's see if they like getting banned and how progun they feel paypal is after that.




Just what we need, gun owners fighting more gun owners

Link Posted: 12/31/2005 5:24:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GonzoAR15-1:
PayPal is a financial institution.

Just like my bank.

How pissed would you guys be if you wrote a check to Wal Mart for a box of ammo, and your bank refused to process the check because your purchase was gun related?




Actually, they are not a financial institution.....if they were, and were held to the same standards as banks....their would be no problem. Can you imagine the bank saying "nope, not gonna cash your check to this person...you wrote GUN on the memo line"

No Expert
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 5:29:20 AM EDT
I guess these guys CAN'T read or don't want to believe the above posted - the NRA doesn't say EBAY or PAYPAL are ANTI-GUN. When the NRA says, threw it's exhaustive vetting, that these organizations ARE ANTI-GUN, then we will our POSITION. In the mean time they are no better than the libs who propagate hate and fear among the uneducated OR misinformed.

Look at those stats!!! - Nice going, tell a lie long enough and IN time will be BELIEVED! Here (above posted) are the facts!!!

Nice going.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 5:34:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By remedy:
The only reason why PayPal and eBay have anti-gun LIKE policies is because they do not want to be held liable in the transaction where someone buys a gun or magazine that is illegal in their state and commits a crime. They simply don't have the resources available to monitor every single gun related transaction to make sure the seller and buyer are following state laws and so forth. On a site like eBay, and a transaction processor like PayPal, their volumes are INSANE. They close more auctions and process more payments in a 24 hour period than you can possibly imagine. They cannot be called anti-gun simply because they do not have the resources and time to monitor all of those auctions. There isn't even software that could be written to govern the sale of firearms on eBay. Trust me, I've thought about it, and debated it with some other MCSDs. Paypal is the same way, they don't want to have to hire thousands or spend millions on software to monitor transactions that may be paying for illegal or stolen firearms and related accessories like magazines. But, as long as you keep your descriptions on the down-low through PayPal, you are fine. I've been selling mags on there for years, and other gun parts. Most people know to not actually say the gun name/type, or magazine whatever.

It's simple business really. They will be investigated and found to be liable in assisting an illegal transaction.


- rem



I would go so far as to accept some of what you say as applicable to eBay...since they are "hosting" the auction...and maybe, just maybe there is someone stupid enough to sue eBay because someone in New Jersey buys a hi-cap magazine from someone in a free state....but since they do nothing but provide the webspace, and do not actually have possession at any time... how are they liable for ANYTHING with the sale.

As for Paypal....person to person transaction, no advertising, could have all been done here on ARFCOM, with the exception of the money, instead of sending a check (bank handling money) or a USPS MO (oh my gawd, the government is an accessory to a crime!!) or a corner liquor store money order (now ther are foreign nationals involved!) or whatever. How, if I sell a legal product to someone else, does paypal become liable? Any lawyers out there want to educate us?

No Expert
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 5:39:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DebA:

Originally Posted By sixgunsblazing:
Ah yes New Jersey, where your group is so effective




What's happened in NJ is coming to a state near you soon. When it does, I hope you walk as good as you talk.



Wow...you make it sound so hopeless...are you all beaten, disparaged, futile feeling and despondent toward the future?

No Expert
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 5:39:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By No_Expert:

Originally Posted By remedy:
The only reason why PayPal and eBay have anti-gun LIKE policies is because they do not want to be held liable in the transaction where someone buys a gun or magazine that is illegal in their state and commits a crime. They simply don't have the resources available to monitor every single gun related transaction to make sure the seller and buyer are following state laws and so forth. On a site like eBay, and a transaction processor like PayPal, their volumes are INSANE. They close more auctions and process more payments in a 24 hour period than you can possibly imagine. They cannot be called anti-gun simply because they do not have the resources and time to monitor all of those auctions. There isn't even software that could be written to govern the sale of firearms on eBay. Trust me, I've thought about it, and debated it with some other MCSDs. Paypal is the same way, they don't want to have to hire thousands or spend millions on software to monitor transactions that may be paying for illegal or stolen firearms and related accessories like magazines. But, as long as you keep your descriptions on the down-low through PayPal, you are fine. I've been selling mags on there for years, and other gun parts. Most people know to not actually say the gun name/type, or magazine whatever.

It's simple business really. They will be investigated and found to be liable in assisting an illegal transaction.


- rem



I would go so far as to accept some of what you say as applicable to eBay...since they are "hosting" the auction...and maybe, just maybe there is someone stupid enough to sue eBay because someone in New Jersey buys a hi-cap magazine from someone in a free state....but since they do nothing but provide the webspace, and do not actually have possession at any time... how are they liable for ANYTHING with the sale.

As for Paypal....person to person transaction, no advertising, could have all been done here on ARFCOM, with the exception of the money, instead of sending a check (bank handling money) or a USPS MO (oh my gawd, the government is an accessory to a crime!!) or a corner liquor store money order (now ther are foreign nationals involved!) or whatever. How, if I sell a legal product to someone else, does paypal become liable? Any lawyers out there want to educate us?

No Expert



It is NOT a CRIME, civil court liability - understand?
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 5:47:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2005 5:57:03 AM EDT by No_Expert]

Originally Posted By Lion_Dog:


It is NOT a CRIME, civil court liability - understand?



Yes, I do. Now, explain to me how in each case there is a liability.

Case 1:

I, a resident of a no-ban state (MI), sell a 30 round magazine to another person in a no-ban state (VA) and that person commits a crime. Somehow, during the investigation, they find out he bought the magazine from me. We used PayPal. Explain liability.

Case 2:


I, a resident of a no-ban state (MI), sell a 30 round magazine to another person in a banned state (CA) and that person commits a crime. Somehow, during the investigation, they find out he bought the magazine from me. We used PayPal. Explain liability.

Case 3, 4, 5, & 6.

Each of the above cases, but substitute for PayPal: "check" and "Money Order"

Thank you,

No Expert

ETA: since some one brought it up... I emailed the NRA-ILA and asked them. I'll see what response they give.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 6:02:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By No_Expert:

Originally Posted By Lion_Dog:


It is NOT a CRIME, civil court liability - understand?



Yes, I do. Now, explain to me how in each case there is a liability.

Case 1:

I, a resident of a no-ban state (MI), sell a 30 round magazine to another person in a no-ban state (VA) and that person commits a crime. Somehow, during the investigation, they find out he bought the magazine from me. We used PayPal. Explain liability.

Case 2:


I, a resident of a no-ban state (MI), sell a 30 round magazine to another person in a banned state (CA) and that person commits a crime. Somehow, during the investigation, they find out he bought the magazine from me. We used PayPal. Explain liability.

Case 3, 4, 5, & 6.

Each of the above cases, but substitute for PayPal: "check" and "Money Order"

Thank you,

No Expert

ETA: since some one brought it up... I emailed the NRA-ILA and asked them. I'll see what response they give.



You are not being reasonable or understanding. In today's society YOU can be named if there is any TYPE of relationship where identified. The check, M.O. are direct, PAYPAL is the middle man and therefore nameable in a suit.

Look you are incorrect, stop being a "lawyer" I am not, but I do know business law being in business. You can get named in a suit.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 3:34:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2005 3:38:23 PM EDT by No_Expert]

Originally Posted By Lion_Dog:

Originally Posted By No_Expert:

Originally Posted By Lion_Dog:

It is NOT a CRIME, civil court liability - understand?



Yes, I do. Now, explain to me how in each case there is a liability.

Case 1:

I, a resident of a no-ban state (MI), sell a 30 round magazine to another person in a no-ban state (VA) and that person commits a crime. Somehow, during the investigation, they find out he bought the magazine from me. We used PayPal. Explain liability.

Case 2:


I, a resident of a no-ban state (MI), sell a 30 round magazine to another person in a banned state (CA) and that person commits a crime. Somehow, during the investigation, they find out he bought the magazine from me. We used PayPal. Explain liability.

Case 3, 4, 5, & 6.

Each of the above cases, but substitute for PayPal: "check" and "Money Order"

Thank you,

No Expert

ETA: since some one brought it up... I emailed the NRA-ILA and asked them. I'll see what response they give.



You are not being reasonable or understanding. In today's society YOU can be named if there is any TYPE of relationship where identified. The check, M.O. are direct, PAYPAL is the middle man and therefore nameable in a suit.

Look you are incorrect, stop being a "lawyer" I am not, but I do know business law being in business. You can get named in a suit.



I am not being unreasonable...and I am not playing the "lawyer"... YOU are. YOU are saying there is some special "middleman" connection with PayPal where they are somehow aware of (as if they are handling) the product exchanging hands more than with check or money order. I am simply asking you to explain to me how this is. that is what I am trying to understand from you. By your explanation, PayPal has some kind of liability for being a "Middleman" that banks, USPS, Credit cards, and any other money transfer does not. None of whom are aware of the purpose of the use of their service unless you tell them.

As to one of the earlier arguements of eBay having liability in "legal transactions" making sure they follow laws:


Originally posted by Remedy:
They simply don't have the resources available to monitor every single gun related transaction to make sure the seller and buyer are following state laws and so forth.



How is this different than a person advertising an item for sale in the newspaper? Does the newspaper have some liability if the sale is somehow questioned down the line?

No Expert

EDIT typos
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 3:39:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
What I'm buying or selling is none of paypal's business. So regardless of what I AM buying or selling, if using PayPal to handle the payment, the type of goods is always "other" without exception. No details.

CJ



I concur, Paypal is a medium to transfer money, it shouldn't matter to them if its 100 pounds of lead or 100 pounds of feathers.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 4:03:22 PM EDT
NJ is one of a few states which are just hopeless on the gun issue. It is like another country, I am surprised I do not need a visa to come and go. Even most of the gun owners would be considered "anti-gun" in most of the free states.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 11:05:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 11:06:32 AM EDT by Rovert]

Originally Posted By DWFAN:

Just what we need, gun owners fighting more gun owners




Yeah, I hear 'ya bro. We deal with this kind of thing all the time. Rather than take a moment to invest some intellectual capital in trying to understand the issue, the lemmings just keep following along, despite the fact that all evidence points to the contrary, in that PayPal is supportive of Republican legislators with strong NRA 'A' ratings.

But let's make the point a different way. Here's another example of why gun owners are their own worst emeny and we've lost so much ground in times past.

Our basic membership fee is $36 per year. Let's just say for argument's sake that PayPal was, in fact, an anti-gun organizaton. We gun owners have a really bad habit of cutting our noses off to spite our face.

Let's look at how the math works, IF PayPal were actually anti-gun. If we proceed from the assumption that the standard across most industries is that 35% of your gross revenue normally goes to a marketing budget, inclusive in which would be charitable and/or political contributions, here's how the numbers shake out:

$36 NJCSD Membership
$1.34 PayPal commission
$.45 cents for marketing purposes (at ~35%)
$.05 cents goes to political contributions, since no company can donate more than 10% of its proceeds.

What I find absolutely unfathomable is that fellow gun owners would rather nail our organization to a cross and deny us $34.66 to put to good works here in the state, than allow 5 cents to ALLEGEDLY go somewhere else.

So, at the end of the day, what we see here from the self-proclaimed "Patriots" in this forum is that they'd much rather fuc$ over a fellow gun owner, than suck in their selfish pride long enough to reach into their wallet to achieve the greater good.

Which is going to achieve the greater impact in the grand scheme... that we deny PayPal FIVE FREAKING CENTS, or see to it that we vote with our dollars so that we can ensure a pro-gun organization has nearly THIRTY FIVE DOLLARS to put toward awareness campaigns and other good works.

For those of you who think you have all the answers, let's look at it again:
PayPal: $.05 CENTS
NJCSD: $35 DOLLARS

We have met the enemy, and they are us. Is it any wonder why, in New Jersey, we have trouble getting traction if all these supposed "libertarians" in this forum can't see the greater good? Just because someone doesn't do something you think they ought to be doing doesn't mean they're against you.

What we have here is a clear case of:
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 12:12:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tannim:
I'm going to contact Paypal. Their organization is a gun accessory. You know Paypal will just immediately ban them for an "investigation".

Let's see if they like getting banned and how progun they feel paypal is after that.

hr

Delightful. What's that saying? "With friends like this, who needs enemies?"

I am one of the co-founders of Second Amendment Sisters and served as President of the organization for 2005. I've been involved with the NJCSD for the past year or so because NJ is my home state and I think it might still be salvageable.

There are far too many gun owners and gun rights activists who have heads full of cement and refuse to be intellectually honest, and they are the reason I decided it was time to retire from full-time activism. I'm trying to stay involved where I can, however.

See, here's what you all (or y'all) just don't get. We already KNOW that PayPal is not "pro-gun". But what we're trying to point out is that they're not "anti-gun" either. They are a private company with a policy. The policy is not friendly to gun owners, but calling the company "anti-gun" is where you're screwing up.

Say you have a pool in your back yard. All the neighborhood kids want to come over and swim, but you decide to make a policy that you're not going to allow kids under the age of 10 to swim. So then all the parents with kids under 10 start to bitch at you because they say you're being discriminatory towards toddlers. You made the policy for a reason, but before you know it you're being labeled a child-hater. Fair?

The thing that really counts is where the money ultimately goes. Go back to page one of this thread and read all about PayPal's PAC contributions. They operate the same way 99% of corporations in the USA do - they make donations to politicians of BOTH political parties. In PayPal's case the number of pro-2A candidates they donate to outnumbers the anti-rights politicians they donate to by a 2 to 1 margin. I believe that's been mentioned 3 or 4 times already on this thread.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 12:13:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By No_Expert:

Originally Posted By DebA:

Originally Posted By sixgunsblazing:
Ah yes New Jersey, where your group is so effective
hr

What's happened in NJ is coming to a state near you soon. When it does, I hope you walk as good as you talk.



Wow...you make it sound so hopeless...are you all beaten, disparaged, futile feeling and despondent toward the future?

No Expert



I almost get the impression that you'd take a great deal of delight in that, in which case I have no use for you.

If I'm wrong let me know, and I'll apologize.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 4:37:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 4:53:43 PM EDT by No_Expert]

Originally Posted By DebA:

Originally Posted By No_Expert:

Originally Posted By DebA:

Originally Posted By sixgunsblazing:
Ah yes New Jersey, where your group is so effective




What's happened in NJ is coming to a state near you soon. When it does, I hope you walk as good as you talk.



Wow...you make it sound so hopeless...are you all beaten, disparaged, futile feeling and despondent toward the future?

No Expert



I almost get the impression that you'd take a great deal of delight in that, in which case I have no use for you.

If I'm wrong let me know, and I'll apologize.




As a matter of fact, I DO NOT get any delight from the idea whatsoever.
Here's a little story:
My best friend that used to work in New Jersey (thankfully he's back in Michigan now) loves to retell the story of how he had the discussion of which of his guns were illegal in NJ with his anti-gun mother. He would pull out his 30-06 and his .22. Lay one round from each on the table, and ask his Mother which gun was banned in NJ. She matter of factly stated "the big one!". Nope, the 30-06 was legal, the .22 was illegal cause the tubular magazine held more than 10 rds (I think he said 15, but even more if he loaded shorts). Her response "Well that doesn't make sense." His response, "exactly".

My question about what you said was sincere. No cutesy smilies. You, I believe and I hope, are seriously wishing to change the stupid, inane, draconian laws which NJ has. I commend you for that. BUT, if you can also say as a member that:

What's happened in NJ is coming to a state near you soon. When it does, I hope you walk as good as you talk.

Then it makes one wonder if you are saying that NJ has no hope and will spread to infect other states. I would like to think the other way. Since FL passed their "Right to carry"...many other states have benefited from their example and passed similar legislation. MI being one of them, and I pick up my CCW tomorrow. Point being, I do hope that one day I'll see you say the same thing.

I am not out to fight YOU. No, I can't say I've ever donated to the NJSCD, I have donated to many Michigan groups and the the NRA. The NRA helps me, you, and all the other states as well.

No Expert

ETA. No apology necessary, I am not your enemy.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 4:41:41 PM EDT
I wish more merchants and this site would use neteller. Ive used it for over a year with no problems.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 4:58:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By remedy:
The only reason why PayPal and eBay have anti-gun LIKE policies is because they do not want to be held liable in the transaction where someone buys a gun or magazine that is illegal in their state and commits a crime. They simply don't have the resources available to monitor every single gun related transaction to make sure the seller and buyer are following state laws and so forth. On a site like eBay, and a transaction processor like PayPal, their volumes are INSANE. They close more auctions and process more payments in a 24 hour period than you can possibly imagine. They cannot be called anti-gun simply because they do not have the resources and time to monitor all of those auctions. There isn't even software that could be written to govern the sale of firearms on eBay. Trust me, I've thought about it, and debated it with some other MCSDs. Paypal is the same way, they don't want to have to hire thousands or spend millions on software to monitor transactions that may be paying for illegal or stolen firearms and related accessories like magazines. But, as long as you keep your descriptions on the down-low through PayPal, you are fine. I've been selling mags on there for years, and other gun parts. Most people know to not actually say the gun name/type, or magazine whatever.

It's simple business really. They will be investigated and found to be liable in assisting an illegal transaction.


- rem



Auction Arms and Gunbroker do quite well sell guns and Evil products.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 4:59:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 5:03:10 PM EDT by Tostitos]
Considering the level of account theft and fraud that goes on, I'm not surprised paypal takes some buttcovering to deny gun purchases through it.

:\

Just my 2c.. I wouldn't use electronic payments for guns unless directly off a CC / debit through a reputable retailer.



So, at the end of the day, what we see here from the self-proclaimed "Patriots" in this forum is that they'd much rather fuc$ over a fellow gun owner, than suck in their selfish pride long enough to reach into their wallet to achieve the greater good.



Can I use that line when I'm out and out hawking my pro-gun webhosting services? I bet there'll be some cheapskates who would rather give their money to someone who donates to the DNC and VPC, instead of myself, who will spend it a Barret.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:03:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FieroLoki:
Its there policy. Doesnt make them anti anything. I think it helps cover there ass in the event something happens.
Dont get me wrong, it sucks and they could be making alot more mney if they allowed it, and I still wouldnt use them if they did allow guns things, btu I dont think it makes them anti gun.



So, i paid for a A2 sight tool and then used the AR in a crime it would be their ass? I dont think so. If that were the case i dont think anybody would have the balls to sell firearms. They are anti-gun, why does everybody have such a hard time understanding this?
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:04:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JarheadChiro:
Papal booted me for selling a vertical foregrip!

I called when I got the email saying that my acct. had been closed but not disclosing the reason.

The Rep told me because it was a gun accessory!

I think if I worded the auction different I might have gotten away with it.




Ebay closed my listing for a freaking stock!
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