Quoted: Quoted: And only one of your groups has the power, authority and weapons to leave you and your family dead all because they went on information from a jailhouse snitch or failed to find the correct address. There are plenty of people permanantly "maimed" from Plastic surgeons down here in Florida.....plenty of people left without house or home or a dime to their name because of lawyers.  Some of those "victims" probably wish for death.  But that's not the point.  I'm not defending the two "detectives" in this case.  I'm not trying to liken their actions to that of a dirty lawyer.  I drew the correlation to show that these two were a-holes long before they were cops.   That and the point that most cops are nothing like these two.

Unless one goes in for a boob job they probably don't need to worry about a bad plastic surgeon...

We all need to worry about bad cops...

And that folks is why Baltimore City sucks rotten cock.


What makes it worse is that the higher ups in the chain of comand in the city see nothiung wrong with it.

Quoted: I guess we just ignore the part where the 911 tape backs up his version of events...   I guess I could just assume that a man not identified as mentally ill after having heard and answered a knock on the door went insane, slammed the door shut, racked a shotgun furiously.  Then proceeded to try and load another weapon and shoot the floor all because he goes berzerk when he here's his name repeated and people identify themselves as police. If the 911 tapes backs up his side....   Go get 'em tiger.

The article doesn't say exactly what parts of the whole exchange are backed up by the tape, nor does the tape cover the entire length of time the officers were present in the apartment, nor can the tape detail what the officers perceived to be the situation.

Lets see: you go somewhere to locate someone, an unknown male who might be the person you are looking for refuses to open the door (actually slams the door in your face) and you hear a shot from inside the place. That goes a lot towards exigent circumstances and exceptions to the warrant requirement. We don't even know if the officers HEARD the shotgun being racked as reported by the guy . If they heard that, don't you think that something like THAT would have been in the officers report?  After all, they wouldn't know if the person racking the slide was a good guy or bad guy. If you went to an address looking for a bad guy , had the door slammed in your face and then heard a shotgun being racked by persons unknown, that would certainly lead an officer to believe that they might be in imminent danger of death or serious physical injury and be used to justify later actions IF they had heard it. Just how many times did he rack the shotgun if "moments later" he went to the basement to retrieve the CZ?.  The person had time to run from the door to the basement. Its not like the officers immediately smashed the door in as soon as  it got closed in their faces. Actually, the article DOES go into that:

"It was 50 seconds after 7:52 p.m., less than eight minutes after the 911 call came in."

Sooo..the officers go there, get the door slammed in their face, the guy has time to dial 911, rack the slide a few times, run to the basement, grab the CZ, get a round off into the floor, and its a whopping EIGHT minutes after he calls 911 before hes in custody? Eight minutes people. Thats an eternity of time when you are standing outside a house, have had a door slammed in your face and then you hear a shot and have unknown circumstances that you as an officer MUST react to RIGHT NOW. Come on people, you are not in your computer chair with all the time in the world to ract over your keyboard and criticize them, you must react RIGHT NOW. And they took 8 minutes. A relative lifetime as reaction time goes.

Plus, you have someone who , if they hang out with these people with questionable backgrounds like their  former roommate MAY have a questionable background themselves ( "no prior criminal record"  as reported in the article just means "no arrests" ; he could be one of those frequent fliers that any agency deals with on complaints that never wind up being arrested themselves, but get a LOT of experience in dealing with LE over time; only someone from that area would be able to answer  that), and maybe enough run ins with LE in the past that when he makes  a call  and KNOWS  they are being taped, knows enough to say things  BECAUSE they know are being taped.They "play it up".

Also from the article:
"Scheper says the detectives were looking for a housemate he had evicted some three weeks before, who in turn was connected to a man they had arrested"

Sounds like they had bad taste in who they allowed into their circle of roommates and associates. Hate to say it, but sometimes people you live or associate with will suck you into their lifestyle, sometimes whether you want them to or not.

As I said, it sounds like this guy is going for the money.

Quoted: Quoted: Interesting. I wonder what the detectives version of the events is? I'm particulary curious about if they admit breaking the glass and attempting forced entry prior to the homeowner grabbing a gun. From the article: "That’s not the same story as the one filed by police in support of Scheper’s arrest (Wagner was held for several hours as well, without being charged). In the Statement of Probable Cause, P.T. Geare of the police department’s Southern District says the two detectives knocked on Scheper’s door, identified themselves as police officers, and asked to speak to him. “Mr. Scheper then quickly closed the door, locked it and ran into the home out of the detectives’ sight,” Geare says in the statement. “After a short time a loud noise came from the dwelling which these detectives believed to be a gun shot. . . . At this point, due to the detectives believing that they heard a gun shot and fearing that evidence may be destroyed or someone may be injured [the detectives] attempted to make entry.” As was said earlier in the thread: "sounds as if he plans on a little civil rights case in big brothers court house." He's going for the big payout.No doubt he's playing up how "bad"those mean ol' officers traumatized him.

Knew YOU'D be popping in with just that kind of response! Jeeze man, don't you ever sing a different tune?

Quoted: Knew YOU'D be popping in with just that kind of response! Jeeze man, don't you ever sing a different tune?

Read my most recent post before you critique.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: We had a guy selling crack out of his cruiser.  Saw him years later on a call and I was just begging for this POS to make a wrong move....and he knew it.  I've got no love for the criminals in uniform.  No good cop does. If someone is selling crack out of our tax dollars paid for cruiser, what do you mean wait for the wrong move? Is selling crack the right move?... Uh, years later as in after the jail sentance on a call were he was one of the turds involved.........And wrong move as in get too lippy while getting too close and "presenting a threat" which would cause me to "fear for my safety" which would result......oh never mind.

Shoulda clocked him anyway.

Quoted: Hate to say it, but sometimes people you associate with will suck you into their lifestyle, sometimes whether you want them to or not.

Hmmmm... I might have to defer to the expert here...

When you hang around with turds, whether you like it or not, you will end up stinking like them.

Whether the guy is an old high school buddy, a work friend, or a relative....

You cannot associate with the wrong element on an intimate basis without becoming directly or indirectly involved.

Period.

If your old buddy from high school became a biker and you still perceived him as just your "ol' buddy", you are in for a suprise. He may still be that guy you always knew and liked....

But!

He may now be involved with methamphetamine production and distribution... stolen motorcycles... strong arm rackets... white slavery...

And one of two things could happen if he happened to come live with you.

1. He could be storing things, drugs, murder weapons, stolen parts,  at your house and invite a nice no-knock raid on your cute little domicile.

2. He could wear his gang colors all the time and invite a bit of gunfire in your driveway if a rival gang member lived nearby.


People tend to bring things on themselves through IGNORANCE.


Now, the cops having no warrant is inexcusable.

Period.

You break in without one, you are likely to get ventilated.

Darwin would come into play for sure. But the homeowner might get Darwin'd too

What ever happened to professionalism? Thoroughness? Basic set of protocols to enforce Laws?

I am disgusted by some of these big city departments that have such inept officers.

Detroit here is one of them.

Dram out

More Gestapo tactics in a shitty little northeastern state. Doesn't really surprise me. Siege Heil MF's

Quoted: More Gestapo tactics in a shitty little northeastern state. Doesn't really surprise me. Siege Heil MF's

The whole deal sounds pretty damn strange but who ever said yankee land was a standard for the norm.

Gents, kindly back off pissing about the Baltimore cops.  Most of you  Arm chair commandos haven't been to Baltimore lately.  Friends, it's only second to Deetouit in Class, Style and upward mobility. What a pit, reminds me Newark, NJ, well maybe not THAT nice.  You can't tell the goodguys from the bad guys.  

There's a few cities in America where the COP can't be 'nice guys'.   These aren't places that you and me what to live in - especially if they only had 'nice cops'.    Boys it's 'America', but probably a whole lot different than the America you live in.  

I only hope that the fine Citizens and Police Officers of Baltimore STAY in Baltimore.  God Bless them - they can use it.

Quoted: Gents, kindly back off pissing about the Baltimore cops.  Most of you  Arm chair commandos haven't been to Baltimore lately.  Friends, it's only second to Deetouit in Class, Style and upward mobility. What a pit, reminds me Newark, NJ, well maybe not THAT nice.  You can't tell the goodguys from the bad guys.   There's a few cities in America where the COP can't be 'nice guys'.   These aren't places that you and me what to live in - especially if they only had 'nice cops'.    Boys it's 'America', but probably a whole lot different than the America you live in.   I only hope that the fine Citizens and Police Officers of Baltimore STAY in Baltimore.  God Bless them - they can use it.

I wouldn't say its as bad as Newark, but its bad.  God how I hated those two places. *shudder*  US-1 through Newark sucks donkey balls, and Baltimore...between the tolls, cops, and traffic, its a wonder anyone actually goes there.



These two cops need to be publically chastised and let the sanctioned lynch-mob known as the media get their hands on them.  And they need to never be in charge of anything more hazardous than a pillow factory.

.

Quoted: When you hang around with turds, whether you like it or not, you will end up stinking like them. Whether the guy is an old high school buddy, a work friend, or a relative.... You cannot associate with the wrong element on an intimate basis without becoming directly or indirectly involved. Period. If your old buddy from high school became a biker and you still perceived him as just your "ol' buddy", you are in for a suprise. He may still be that guy you always knew and liked.... But! He may now be involved with methamphetamine production and distribution... stolen motorcycles... strong arm rackets... white slavery... And one of two things could happen if he happened to come live with you. 1. He could be storing things, drugs, murder weapons, stolen parts,  at your house and invite a nice no-knock raid on your cute little domicile. 2. He could wear his gang colors all the time and invite a bit of gunfire in your driveway if a rival gang member lived nearby. People tend to bring things on themselves through IGNORANCE. Now, the cops having no warrant is inexcusable. Period. You break in without one, you are likely to get ventilated. Darwin would come into play for sure. But the homeowner might get Darwin'd too What ever happened to professionalism? Thoroughness? Basic set of protocols to enforce Laws? I am disgusted by some of these big city departments that have such inept officers. Detroit here is one of them. Dram out

I take offense to your description of a biker. You should use the term '1%r' to describe that sort. 99% of bikers are good people.

Quoted: Quoted: I guess we just ignore the part where the 911 tape backs up his version of events...   I guess I could just assume that a man not identified as mentally ill after having heard and answered a knock on the door went insane, slammed the door shut, racked a shotgun furiously.  Then proceeded to try and load another weapon and shoot the floor all because he goes berzerk when he here's his name repeated and people identify themselves as police. If the 911 tapes backs up his side....   Go get 'em tiger. The article doesn't say exactly what parts of the whole exchange are backed up by the tape, nor does the tape cover the entire length of time the officers were present in the apartment, nor can the tape detail what the officers perceived to be the situation. Lets see: you go somewhere to locate someone, an unknown male who might be the person you are looking for refuses to open the door (actually slams the door in your face) and you hear a shot from inside the place. That goes a lot towards exigent circumstances and exceptions to the warrant requirement. We don't even know if the officers HEARD the shotgun being racked as reported by the guy . If they heard that, don't you think that something like THAT would have been in the officers report?  After all, they wouldn't know if the person racking the slide was a good guy or bad guy. If you went to an address looking for a bad guy , had the door slammed in your face and then heard a shotgun being racked by persons unknown, that would certainly lead an officer to believe that they might be in imminent danger of death or serious physical injury and be used to justify later actions IF they had heard it. Just how many times did he rack the shotgun if "moments later" he went to the basement to retrieve the CZ?.  The person had time to run from the door to the basement. Its not like the officers immediately smashed the door in as soon as  it got closed in their faces. Actually, the article DOES go into that: "It was 50 seconds after 7:52 p.m., less than eight minutes after the 911 call came in." Sooo..the officers go there, get the door slammed in their face, the guy has time to dial 911, rack the slide a few times, run to the basement, grab the CZ, get a round off into the floor, and its a whopping EIGHT minutes after he calls 911 before hes in custody? Eight minutes people. Thats an eternity of time when you are standing outside a house, have had a door slammed in your face and then you hear a shot and have unknown circumstances that you as an officer MUST react to RIGHT NOW. Come on people, you are not in your computer chair with all the time in the world to ract over your keyboard and criticize them, you must react RIGHT NOW. And they took 8 minutes. A relative lifetime as reaction time goes. Plus, you have someone who , if they hang out with these people with questionable backgrounds like their  former roommate MAY have a questionable background themselves ( "no prior criminal record"  as reported in the article just means "no arrests" ; he could be one of those frequent fliers that any agency deals with on complaints that never wind up being arrested themselves, but get a LOT of experience in dealing with LE over time; only someone from that area would be able to answer  that), and maybe enough run ins with LE in the past that when he makes  a call  and KNOWS  they are being taped, knows enough to say things  BECAUSE they know are being taped.They "play it up". Also from the article: "Scheper says the detectives were looking for a housemate he had evicted some three weeks before, who in turn was connected to a man they had arrested" Sounds like they had bad taste in who they allowed into their circle of roommates and associates. Hate to say it, but sometimes people you live or associate with will suck you into their lifestyle, sometimes whether you want them to or not. As I said, it sounds like this guy is going for the money.

So once again, in the absence of any information to the contrary you just make as many assumptions as it takes to make this man a liar and the cops totally in the right.  That is exactly my point here, you have not one shred of proof that he is lying about the events.  The tape apparently backed up his story because the DA fought tooth and nail to exclude it and dropped the case instantly when it was admitted into evidence.  Is that because the tape shows that these officers were just knocking on the door until the sounds of gunfire caused them to break into his house to rescue him, oh, and we'll just conduct a quick drug search for that warrent we were waiting for while we're here?  Or could it be that they can hear the police breaking in before the events they claim led them to break in?

Maybe the guy is totally full of shit.  Maybe he'll loose at trial and we'll find out this was all a bunch of crap when a different story comes out.  What gets old is the same tired rerun of any story of law enforcement doing the wrong thing being dismissed using only the assuptions of the poster, and the decrying of all other facts to the contrary as slanted BS, as the basis for that dismissal.

As for the payday.... if it happened the way he says it did he deserves it.  If it didn't then I hope that comes out and he doesn't get anything.


ETA:
There are two aspects of the story that lead me to generally think the homeowner's story is more true.

1.) The officers obviously wanted something or someone in that house.  They proceeded to conduct that search once they gained entry after the man closed the door on them.  They obtained the warrent after the fact or it was in the processes of being granted.  The story is not clear there but either way they didn't have what they needed at the moment.  He may have closed the door rudely, something that might well have rasied the blood pressure of these two.


2.) The DA dropped the charges the day that tape was addmited.  That suggests that the officers version of events don't jibe with what can heard on the tape.  They used the gunshot as the basis for their entry.  If they were breaking in prior to that shot and that can be heard then they were flat-out lying.  If that's the case... good riddance, the world can do with two less officers that make stuff up as they go along.

Those are the elements of the story I tend to believe.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Hmmm...interesting to see how a few members handle this one... +1 Agreed.  Instead of saying that these two clowns deserve a thrashing and reassignment back to the road and some punishment (and let me just add possible firing if the facts warrant that before some clown gets in a tizzy and accuses me of "defending the think blue line at all costs"), and adding that an official apology with some type of "compensation" is in order, the tinfoil anti government types will attempt to paint all LEO's in this shameful light and cast insults and disperssions with broad strokes. These two "detectives" are to be dealt with in a very serious manner.  But let's not turn this into another LEO bashing thread.....I'm sure there has been at least eleventy billion already today.

Reassigned to the road? How about FIRED?

Quoted: Quoted: I guess we just ignore the part where the 911 tape backs up his version of events...   I guess I could just assume that a man not identified as mentally ill after having heard and answered a knock on the door went insane, slammed the door shut, racked a shotgun furiously.  Then proceeded to try and load another weapon and shoot the floor all because he goes berzerk when he here's his name repeated and people identify themselves as police. If the 911 tapes backs up his side....   Go get 'em tiger. The article doesn't say exactly what parts of the whole exchange are backed up by the tape, nor does the tape cover the entire length of time the officers were present in the apartment, nor can the tape detail what the officers perceived to be the situation. Lets see: you go somewhere to locate someone, an unknown male who might be the person you are looking for refuses to open the door (actually slams the door in your face) and you hear a shot from inside the place. That goes a lot towards exigent circumstances and exceptions to the warrant requirement. We don't even know if the officers HEARD the shotgun being racked as reported by the guy . If they heard that, don't you think that something like THAT would have been in the officers report?  After all, they wouldn't know if the person racking the slide was a good guy or bad guy. If you went to an address looking for a bad guy , had the door slammed in your face and then heard a shotgun being racked by persons unknown, that would certainly lead an officer to believe that they might be in imminent danger of death or serious physical injury and be used to justify later actions IF they had heard it. Just how many times did he rack the shotgun if "moments later" he went to the basement to retrieve the CZ?.  The person had time to run from the door to the basement. Its not like the officers immediately smashed the door in as soon as  it got closed in their faces. Actually, the article DOES go into that: "It was 50 seconds after 7:52 p.m., less than eight minutes after the 911 call came in." Sooo..the officers go there, get the door slammed in their face, the guy has time to dial 911, rack the slide a few times, run to the basement, grab the CZ, get a round off into the floor, and its a whopping EIGHT minutes after he calls 911 before hes in custody? Eight minutes people. Thats an eternity of time when you are standing outside a house, have had a door slammed in your face and then you hear a shot and have unknown circumstances that you as an officer MUST react to RIGHT NOW. Come on people, you are not in your computer chair with all the time in the world to ract over your keyboard and criticize them, you must react RIGHT NOW. And they took 8 minutes. A relative lifetime as reaction time goes. Plus, you have someone who , if they hang out with these people with questionable backgrounds like their  former roommate MAY have a questionable background themselves ( "no prior criminal record"  as reported in the article just means "no arrests" ; he could be one of those frequent fliers that any agency deals with on complaints that never wind up being arrested themselves, but get a LOT of experience in dealing with LE over time; only someone from that area would be able to answer  that), and maybe enough run ins with LE in the past that when he makes  a call  and KNOWS  they are being taped, knows enough to say things  BECAUSE they know are being taped.They "play it up". Also from the article: "Scheper says the detectives were looking for a housemate he had evicted some three weeks before, who in turn was connected to a man they had arrested" Sounds like they had bad taste in who they allowed into their circle of roommates and associates. Hate to say it, but sometimes people you live or associate with will suck you into their lifestyle, sometimes whether you want them to or not. As I said, it sounds like this guy is going for the money.

Way to skip over the whole part about not having a warrant until two hours later.
Exigent circumstances? The officers CAUSED the circumstances by trying to force their way into the home without a warrant.  The guy had an AD trying to defend his home from police officers ignoring the Constitution of the US.
They need to be hanged.

Quoted: Quoted: Knew YOU'D be popping in with just that kind of response! Jeeze man, don't you ever sing a different tune? Read my most recent post before you critique.

It was crap too.

Quoted: Gents, kindly back off pissing about the Baltimore cops.  Most of you  Arm chair commandos haven't been to Baltimore lately.  Friends, it's only second to Deetouit in Class, Style and upward mobility. What a pit, reminds me Newark, NJ, well maybe not THAT nice.  You can't tell the goodguys from the bad guys.   There's a few cities in America where the COP can't be 'nice guys'.   These aren't places that you and me what to live in - especially if they only had 'nice cops'.    Boys it's 'America', but probably a whole lot different than the America you live in.   I only hope that the fine Citizens and Police Officers of Baltimore STAY in Baltimore.  God Bless them - they can use it.

Every city in the US should have cops that FOLLOW THE CONSTITUTION. Doesn't matter what crime is like in the city.

all other things aside, is it SOP for two plainclothes officers to enter a building of unknown layout, with an unknown number of occupants, who are now known to be armed since they just heard gunfire?

maybe it's just me, but that sounds like a good way to lose some center of mass material.

Quoted: Agreed.  Instead of saying that these two clowns deserve a thrashing and reassignment back to the road and some punishment (and let me just add possible firing if the facts warrant that before some clown gets in a tizzy and accuses me of "defending the think blue line at all costs"), and adding that an official apology with some type of "compensation" is in order, the tinfoil anti government types will attempt to paint all LEO's in this shameful light and cast insults and disperssions with broad strokes.

Ok, can't wait until reading the whole thread to get this off my chest...

Instead of a "thrashing and reassignment back to the road", how about canning their sorry a$$es?    They are no longer worthy of the respect normally due an officer of the law - they really are "jack booted thugs".    

This kind of thing is what makes me hesitant to trust the police - they do something that is clearly way out of line, show no remorse, and get a slap on the wrist.     And it's condoned by a surprisingly large proportion of the LEO community.    Not all if it, mind you, but a surprisingly large part of it, in my experience.

Quoted: Quoted: Seig Heil, Massachusetts! It's Maryland.

Same thing, really.

I hope he wins the eventual lawsuit.

Damn thats a fucked up scary situation, I mean shit if I was in that guys shoes there would have been two dead cops in my house, that would have been fucked up and hard as hell to explain for damn sure...

Fucked up just straight fucked up...

Quoted: You cannot associate with the wrong element on an intimate basis without becoming directly or indirectly involved. Period.

Remember that when they start going after gun owners for little BS...oh wait, a minute, nevermind...they already do...

Quoted: Quoted: You cannot associate with the wrong element on an intimate basis without becoming directly or indirectly involved. Period. Remember that when they start going after gun owners for little BS...oh wait, a minute, nevermind...they already do...

Lay down with dogs and you will get fleas.

Quoted: But let's not turn this into another LEO bashing thread.....I'm sure there has been at least eleventy billion already today.hinking.gif

Why the hell not?

POS dirty f*ckin cops deserve to be put in general population.

watcha affraid of leo6223, don't think your "profession" deserves scrutiny or accountability?

Quoted: Gents, kindly back off pissing about the Baltimore cops.  Most of you  Arm chair commandos haven't been to Baltimore lately.  Friends, it's only second to Deetouit in Class, Style and upward mobility. What a pit, reminds me Newark, NJ, well maybe not THAT nice.  You can't tell the goodguys from the bad guys.   There's a few cities in America where the COP can't be 'nice guys'.   These aren't places that you and me what to live in - especially if they only had 'nice cops'.    Boys it's 'America', but probably a whole lot different than the America you live in.   I only hope that the fine Citizens and Police Officers of Baltimore STAY in Baltimore.  God Bless them - they can use it.

I don't think you want to bring Detroit into this, trying to defend LEs...Since the mafia has been weakened up there, much of the slack has been picked up by DPD. If the British Army was stationed in Detroit instead of Basra, they'd have to do the same raid on a station to get their guys out...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You cannot associate with the wrong element on an intimate basis without becoming directly or indirectly involved. Period. Remember that when they start going after gun owners for little BS...oh wait, a minute, nevermind...they already do... Lay down with dogs and you will get fleas.

Talking on a gun board isn't laying down with a dog...it is rolling around with one...

Quoted: I've got no love for the criminals in uniform.  No good cop does. Of course you'll never understand that will you?  It's just easier to paint with a broad brush...takes less time.

then why don't you guys do something about it before ALL LEOs are hated with a burning passion

Quoted: Quoted: I've got no love for the criminals in uniform.  No good cop does. Of course you'll never understand that will you?  It's just easier to paint with a broad brush...takes less time. then why don't you guys do something about it before ALL LEOs are hated with a burning passion

Misplaced loyalty.

Maybe the silence is because they were Transfered from the New Orleans PD where they were Ghost Employee's

Based on this one-sided, piece of shit article, the ARFCOM anti-police squad comes out and says things about it being too bad the cops weren't shot, silly comments about dogs being shot, seig heil, etc.

ARFCOM ain't what it used to be.

FYI, a warrant is not always needed to make an arrest.

I'm not apologizing for the cops in this one - but I am suggesting just a little bit of restraint.

Maybe, just maybe this kind hearted welder is actually a crook.

Quoted: Based on this one-sided, piece of shit article, the ARFCOM anti-police squad comes out and says things about it being too bad the cops weren't shot, silly comments about dogs being shot, seig heil, etc. ARFCOM ain't what it used to be. FYI, a warrant is not always needed to make an arrest. I'm not apologizing for the cops in this one - but I am suggesting just a little bit of restraint. Maybe, just maybe this kind hearted welder is actually a crook.

Care to speculate on what circumstances, as outlined in this article, would justify a warrantless entry?
Care to speculate why the PA gave up when the 911 tape was going to be used by the DEFENSE?

As for ARFCOM not being what it used to be, let those of us who have been around more than a year judge that.

ETA:
Why would you say that the welder is a crook when the officer searched his some, getting the warrant 2 hours later, and found nothing to charge him with?
Maybe the welder was a crook, but more likely the cops were.

Quoted: I'm not apologizing for the cops in this one - but I am suggesting just a little bit of restraint.

you're kidding right?

restraint?

like the restraint showed to Vicki Weaver

Quoted: Quoted: I'm not apologizing for the cops in this one - but I am suggesting just a little bit of restraint. you're kidding right? restraint? like the restraint showed to Vicki Weaver

Is this your response to anything you disagree with done by one of the nation's 150,000 or so cops?

Very limited, aren't you?

Quoted: Is this your response to anything you disagree with done by one of the nation's 150,000 or so cops? Very limited, aren't you?

I prefer succinct

No, I see Lon "the federal assassin" horiuchi as a symptom of a greater problem.

LEOs are starting to serve their masters and themselves and not their fellow citizens (or US constitution).

Quoted: Quoted: Based on this one-sided, piece of shit article, the ARFCOM anti-police squad comes out and says things about it being too bad the cops weren't shot, silly comments about dogs being shot, seig heil, etc. ARFCOM ain't what it used to be. FYI, a warrant is not always needed to make an arrest. I'm not apologizing for the cops in this one - but I am suggesting just a little bit of restraint. Maybe, just maybe this kind hearted welder is actually a crook. Care to speculate on what circumstances, as outlined in this article, would justify a warrantless entry? Care to speculate why the PA gave up when the 911 tape was going to be used by the DEFENSE? As for ARFCOM not being what it used to be, let those of us who have been around more than a year judge that. ETA: Why would you say that the welder is a crook when the officer searched his some, getting the warrant 2 hours later, and found nothing to charge him with? Maybe the welder was a crook, but more likely the cops were.

Sure, I can speculate:

The detectives went to the house to investigate the drug angle.  They knock on the door, and a shot goes off.  Mr. welder has a great explanation, but the detectives see it differently.  There's a confrontation at the front door, the detectives ID themselves, but Mr. welder slams the door on them.  They fear for their safety and kick the door.

The DA may have had many reasons for dropping the case, the least of which may have been the 911 tape.  It would sound pretty bad that at least some of the occupants of the house thought it was a real break in, though.  Care to guess how many folks try to call 911 when a warrant is served on their houses for dope, etc.?  Many.  It doesn't negate their criminal activity, it just shows how everybody, and I mean everybody runs home to mama when they need help.

And I've been around here since before your November 2000 crashed system registration.  I've been around since this was just the list.  I've seen the changes, and they aren't good.  

Quoted: Based on this one-sided, piece of shit article, the ARFCOM anti-police squad comes out and says things about it being too bad the cops weren't shot, silly comments about dogs being shot, seig heil, etc.

The JBT apologist squad will never admit any police wrongdoings...

Quoted: Based on this one-sided, piece of shit article, the ARFCOM anti-police squad comes out and says things about it being too bad the cops weren't shot, silly comments about dogs being shot, seig heil, etc. ARFCOM ain't what it used to be. FYI, a warrant is not always needed to make an arrest. I'm not apologizing for the cops in this one - but I am suggesting just a little bit of restraint. Maybe, just maybe this kind hearted welder is actually a crook.

you're right about that for sure

Quoted: Is this your response to anything you disagree with done by one of the nation's 150,000 or so cops? Very limited, aren't you?

Since we all know Klinton added 100,000 of them maybe we need to go back to the pre Klinton numbers...That might be a good start...

Quoted: Quoted: Based on this one-sided, piece of shit article, the ARFCOM anti-police squad comes out and says things about it being too bad the cops weren't shot, silly comments about dogs being shot, seig heil, etc. ARFCOM ain't what it used to be. FYI, a warrant is not always needed to make an arrest. I'm not apologizing for the cops in this one - but I am suggesting just a little bit of restraint. Maybe, just maybe this kind hearted welder is actually a crook. you're right about that for sure

That's a shame us darn citizens are getting all uppity...

If you don't like how things are, maybe you can work to alleviate the concerns a vast majority of us have...or there is always the leave option if things are so bad for you here...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Based on this one-sided, piece of shit article, the ARFCOM anti-police squad comes out and says things about it being too bad the cops weren't shot, silly comments about dogs being shot, seig heil, etc. ARFCOM ain't what it used to be. FYI, a warrant is not always needed to make an arrest. I'm not apologizing for the cops in this one - but I am suggesting just a little bit of restraint. Maybe, just maybe this kind hearted welder is actually a crook. Care to speculate on what circumstances, as outlined in this article, would justify a warrantless entry? Care to speculate why the PA gave up when the 911 tape was going to be used by the DEFENSE? As for ARFCOM not being what it used to be, let those of us who have been around more than a year judge that. ETA: Why would you say that the welder is a crook when the officer searched his some, getting the warrant 2 hours later, and found nothing to charge him with? Maybe the welder was a crook, but more likely the cops were. Sure, I can speculate: The detectives went to the house to investigate the drug angle.  They knock on the door, and a shot goes off.  Mr. welder has a great explanation, but the detectives see it differently.  There's a confrontation at the front door, the detectives ID themselves, but Mr. welder slams the door on them.  They fear for their safety and kick the door. The DA may have had many reasons for dropping the case, the least of which may have been the 911 tape.  It would sound pretty bad that at least some of the occupants of the house thought it was a real break in, though.  Care to guess how many folks try to call 911 when a warrant is served on their houses for dope, etc.?  Many.  It doesn't negate their criminal activity, it just shows how everybody, and I mean everybody runs home to mama when they need help. And I've been around here since before your November 2000 crashed system registration.  I've been around since this was just the list.  I've seen the changes, and they aren't good.

Your speculation would be easy to prove or disprove.  If the 911 tape has sounds of officers breaking in IDing themselves and no gunshot then they may be telling the truth and the call was placed after the shot... inconclusive.  If the tape has sounds of a gunshot going off and then sounds of breaking in that would uphold their story exactly.  If there are sounds of a break in then a gunshot, then they are flat out lying.  

Now perhaps the DA was about to drop the charges but the papers just didn't get to the office before the tape was admitted as evidence.  Seems more likely the officers were being trusted a bit until the defense was made able to present obvious evidence that the officers testimony was not spot-on.  That making it impossible to carry a case on their say-so.  Thus the case was dropped.

I would really like to know if they applied for the warrent after the events of that morning and used his arrest and the need to rescue him from gunfire as the basis, or if they applied earlier and simply didn't have it hand yet.  The story suggests the former, and if that's the case I think they deserve to fired on the spot if they lied to obtain it to cover their actions.  If the tape backs up the officers story then I'd say they had cause to enter without the warrent based on hearing the gunfire.  So what though, my internet opinion doesn't affect them one way or the other and they will have to explain thier side in court.  I guess we'll find out huh?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Hmmm...interesting to see how a few members handle this one... +1 Agreed.  Instead of saying that these two clowns deserve a thrashing and reassignment back to the road and some punishment (and let me just add possible firing if the facts warrant that before some clown gets in a tizzy and accuses me of "defending the think blue line at all costs"), and adding that an official apology with some type of "compensation" is in order, the tinfoil anti government types will attempt to paint all LEO's in this shameful light and cast insults and disperssions with broad strokes. These two "detectives" are to be dealt with in a very serious manner.  But let's not turn this into another LEO bashing thread.....I'm sure there has been at least eleventy billion already today. Reassigned to the road? How about FIRED?

Did you even read my post?......I highlighted that portion for you.

The other thing about this that pisses me off is that the officers in question make a mistake and maybe get spanked, but are otherwise unaffected.    

The homeowner, however, is on the hook for legal bills, has to manage the repair of the damaged furniture, has to argue about getting his stuff back from the PD, and so on.    Lots more expensive, and lots more trouble, for someone who did absolutely nothing wrong.

Fire the officers.   Sue the PD for six or seven figures so that their command structure understands that they have to face the consequences for their actions just like everyone else.   Do any of the resident LEOs have a problem with this?  

Quoted: Quoted: I've got no love for the criminals in uniform.  No good cop does. Of course you'll never understand that will you?  It's just easier to paint with a broad brush...takes less time. then why don't you guys do something about it before ALL LEOs are hated with a burning passion

Give me a break...that's like holding ALL lawyers accountable for Johnnie Cockran and Willie Gary....and a bunch of other scum laywers......

We do police our own...Internal Affairs.   Some turds will continue to be turds no matter what.  That's human nature.  Pull your head out of the clouds and come back to reality.

Bash these two individuals all you want...but remember one thing- they are individuals, not a collective body.

Quoted: Did you even read my post?......I highlighted that portion for you.

The other side of this fence can be  just as obnoxious as it's counterpart.  

It won't matter what you write.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Based on this one-sided, piece of shit article, the ARFCOM anti-police squad comes out and says things about it being too bad the cops weren't shot, silly comments about dogs being shot, seig heil, etc. ARFCOM ain't what it used to be. FYI, a warrant is not always needed to make an arrest. I'm not apologizing for the cops in this one - but I am suggesting just a little bit of restraint. Maybe, just maybe this kind hearted welder is actually a crook. Care to speculate on what circumstances, as outlined in this article, would justify a warrantless entry? Care to speculate why the PA gave up when the 911 tape was going to be used by the DEFENSE? As for ARFCOM not being what it used to be, let those of us who have been around more than a year judge that. ETA: Why would you say that the welder is a crook when the officer searched his some, getting the warrant 2 hours later, and found nothing to charge him with? Maybe the welder was a crook, but more likely the cops were. Sure, I can speculate: The detectives went to the house to investigate the drug angle.  They knock on the door, and a shot goes off.  Mr. welder has a great explanation, but the detectives see it differently.  There's a confrontation at the front door, the detectives ID themselves, but Mr. welder slams the door on them.  They fear for their safety and kick the door. The DA may have had many reasons for dropping the case, the least of which may have been the 911 tape.  It would sound pretty bad that at least some of the occupants of the house thought it was a real break in, though.  Care to guess how many folks try to call 911 when a warrant is served on their houses for dope, etc.?  Many.  It doesn't negate their criminal activity, it just shows how everybody, and I mean everybody runs home to mama when they need help. And I've been around here since before your November 2000 crashed system registration.  I've been around since this was just the list.  I've seen the changes, and they aren't good.

Except that in both versions of the story, the gunshot happens afterward. You've rearranged events to suit your own purposes.

Go back to your lair, JBT apologist. We don't need asshole cops like them and we don't need you.

Quoted: Fire the officers.   Sue the PD for six or seven figures so that their command structure understands that they have to face the consequences for their actions just like everyone else.   Do any of the resident LEOs have a problem with this?

Won't do a damn thing.  It'll be a line item in the City's litigation budget and be charged back to the tax payers.  Unless it stirs up a press hornets nest it won't effect them one way or the other.

Quoted: We do police our own...Internal Affairs.   Some turds will continue to be turds no matter what.  That's human nature.  Pull your head out of the clouds and come back to reality. Bash these two individuals all you want...but remember one thing- they are individuals, not a collective body.

so where was internal affairs on the other incidences of JBTism?

like i said, you guys need to fix yourselves or everyone will hate all of you, the bad apples are spoiling the collective body.