Quoted: A better solution that govnerment funded birth control/tubal ligation, would be for a private entity to do it. There have been private organizations that paid women to be sterilized, I think it's a great idea.

Funny how the little ho's CAN'T afford bith control, but they CAN afford beer, cigarettes, fake finger nails, slutty clothing, new hair dos and all the other things needed to help get them preggers.

Quoted: Quoted: However, if I have to choose one or the other, I'd rather pay for them to get fixed. Pretty sad though when that is the point society has gotten to where we are talking aobut choosing one or the other. Choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil. I understand what you are saying, but we are in the place we are today because our parents didn't  hold to fundamental principles.

Preaching to the choir here bud. I could write a book.

Quoted: Quoted: A better solution that govnerment funded birth control/tubal ligation, would be for a private entity to do it. There have been private organizations that paid women to be sterilized, I think it's a great idea. Funny how the little ho's CAN'T afford bith control, but they CAN afford beer, cigarettes, fake finger nails, slutty clothing, new hair dos and all the other things needed to help get them preggers.

I thought that was what Welfare was for. Did I miss something.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: However, if I have to choose one or the other, I'd rather pay for them to get fixed. Pretty sad though when that is the point society has gotten to where we are talking aobut choosing one or the other. Choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil. I understand what you are saying, but we are in the place we are today because our parents didn't  hold to fundamental principles. Preaching to the choir here bud. I could write a book.

OK, so let's write a block grant to a private entity to pay for the costs of permanent birth control.

What's the difference?

Quoted: OK, so let's write a block grant to a private entity to pay for the costs of permanent birth control. What's the difference?

You STILL have not as yet shown me the Constitutional basis for gov't funded birth control.

Article and Section, please.

Quoted: A better solution that govnerment funded birth control/tubal ligation, would be for a private entity to do it. There have been private organizations that paid women to be sterilized, I think it's a great idea.

Project Prevention is a 501(c)3 that is one such.  IIRC it used to be called "Children Requiring a Caring Kommunity".  The liberals absolutely hate it.

I did try using bcp's for a while.  I turned out so bitchy that no one could stand to be in the room with me.  I guess that's why they were so effective...

Quoted: The reason that impoverished women tend to have so many kids is for a few reasons: 1. These people aren't thinking about tonight, let alone tomorrow, therefore there is no concern of getting pregnant as its a problem that doesn't affect today. 2. Benefits, more kids you have the more welfare you can collect 3. Culture, in many impoverished cultures it is not just ok but a source of pride to be a single mother. Until the culture starts ostracizing those who reproduce irresponsibly and stops giving people extra money for having more kids, the trend will continue.

You are dead right on #1 and #3.

#2 is no longer strictly true.

See www.ku.edu/~rlevy/Public_Benefit_Law/reform_papers/familycaps.PDF

I think what REALLY needs to happen is for society to do everything possible to make MEN take responsibility for the children they help conceive.  For almost every child on welfare there is an able-bodied man who has shirked his responsibility as a father.  The only women who should ever end up on welfare are those who have been widowed, or whose husband (boyfriend, whatever) has become disabled.

There should be a real sense of SHAME for any man who gets a woman pregnant and dumps her, or who abandons his wife and children.

Quoted: I think what REALLY needs to happen is for society to do everything possible to make MEN take responsibility for the children they help conceive.  For almost every child on welfare there is an able-bodied man who has shirked his responsibility as a father.  The only women who should ever end up on welfare are those who have been widowed, or whose husband (boyfriend, whatever) has become disabled. There should be a real sense of SHAME for any man who gets a woman pregnant and dumps her, or who abandons his wife and children.

Amen!!!!!!!!!

Uhhh, I mean, I agree completely!!!!!!!!

Quoted: ... Amen!!!!!!!!! Uhhh, I mean, I agree completely!!!!!!!!

Amen is fine with me, g-man.

I'm glad there are some things we agree on besides the RKBA.

Quoted: There should be a real sense of SHAME for any man who gets a woman pregnant and dumps her, or who abandons his wife and children.

+1

Quoted: Quoted: ... Amen!!!!!!!!! Uhhh, I mean, I agree completely!!!!!!!! Amen is fine with me, g-man. I'm glad there are some things we agree on besides the RKBA.

There's likely LOTS we agree on. As strongly as we disagree on some other things.

Its all good.

I don't need to agree with someone to consider them a friend.

Quoted: You STILL have not as yet shown me the Constitutional basis for gov't funded birth control. Article and Section, please.

The gov't is doing a bazillion things that are either unConstitutional or extra-Constitutional and some forms of welfare is but one example. RATHER THAN pay out the nose for EIGHTEEN years for the child, I'd rather pay A DROP IN A BUCKET just ONCE to have the woman (or man) "fixed" if they choose to do so.

But since we can't find it "chapter and verse" in the Constitution, I guess we'll just have to continue shelling out big money to raise these kids, right?

couple of comments, here:

While I agree that that is being careful, there is only one way to be 100% sure.
i can think of several.


I think what REALLY needs to happen is for society to do everything possible to make MEN take responsibility for the children they help conceive. For almost every child on welfare there is an able-bodied man who has shirked his responsibility as a father. The only women who should ever end up on welfare are those who have been widowed, or whose husband (boyfriend, whatever) has become disabled.

There should be a real sense of SHAME for any man who gets a woman pregnant and dumps her, or who abandons his wife and children.

not all women are easy to live with, and sometimes we marry them before we know this. having been a custodial dad, and now paying supoprt, i do beloieve in the system. having been more generous than the law requires, i am respected by my kids for doing what is right, even when their mother does not.

no man is saddled to a woman who is unreasonable. what is unreasonable? thats the only question worth arguing.

The flip side of that is I did it and then ended up divorcing her. Now I may get married again and now regret that decision. Its probably to late to get it reversed now.

I know five married guys that have had them.  All five are now single.  The wife of one of them left him before he even recovered from the surgery.  She did it just to screw him over before leaving him.  What happened to you seems all to common.z

Quoted: Quoted: You STILL have not as yet shown me the Constitutional basis for gov't funded birth control. Article and Section, please. The gov't is doing a bazillion things that are either unConstitutional or extra-Constitutional and some forms of welfare is but one example. RATHER THAN pay out the nose for EIGHTEEN years for the child, I'd rather pay A DROP IN A BUCKET just ONCE to have the woman (or man) "fixed" if they choose to do so. But since we can't find it "chapter and verse" in the Constitution, I guess we'll just have to continue shelling out big money to raise these kids, right?

No.

We just start following the Constitution. Across the board.  No sterilization program, no $$ for pumping out kids.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Two violations of the COnstitution do NOT equal following the Constitution.

YOu seriously think we'll EVER get back to following the Constitution by knowingly violating it? By doing what you ADMIT is a violation (sterilization program)?

Hey - you are FREE to write a big fat check to the  gov't to fund your little sterilization program anytime you want to.

Have you? No, you have not (not over and above the big fat check you already write) .

You prefer to use gov't to force ME to write a big fat check to fund your program.

I'd prefer you didn't prefer that.


BTW, nice Nebrasky win there, Poncho.

Quoted: We just start following the Constitution. Across the board.  No sterilization program, no $$ for pumping out kids. YOu seriously think we'll EVER get back to following the Constitution by knowingly violating it? By doing what you ADMIT is a violation (sterilization program)? Have you? No, you have not (not over and above the big fat check you already write) . You prefer to use gov't to force ME to write a big fat check to fund your program. I'd prefer you didn't prefer that.

I understand precisely where you are coming from, amigo, and I agree with you. I just think offering the option to people is a good way to make a bad situation less bad.

BTW, nice Nebrasky win there, Poncho.

Thanks, bud! It's nice to see a bowl win from Big Red. Too bad it's the "Donny's House of Donuts" Bowl or something like that.

Quoted: Quoted: The reason that impoverished women tend to have so many kids is for a few reasons: 1. These people aren't thinking about tonight, let alone tomorrow, therefore there is no concern of getting pregnant as its a problem that doesn't affect today. 2. Benefits, more kids you have the more welfare you can collect 3. Culture, in many impoverished cultures it is not just ok but a source of pride to be a single mother. Until the culture starts ostracizing those who reproduce irresponsibly and stops giving people extra money for having more kids, the trend will continue. You are dead right on #1 and #3. #2 is no longer strictly true. See www.ku.edu/~rlevy/Public_Benefit_Law/reform_papers/familycaps.PDF I think what REALLY needs to happen is for society to do everything possible to make MEN take responsibility for the children they help conceive.  For almost every child on welfare there is an able-bodied man who has shirked his responsibility as a father.  The only women who should ever end up on welfare are those who have been widowed, or whose husband (boyfriend, whatever) has become disabled. There should be a real sense of SHAME for any man who gets a woman pregnant and dumps her, or who abandons his wife and children.

Perhaps I am missing the intent of this thread, but I submit that some folks would be better served having more kids, because if they don't we will face an overpopulation of the welfare kids, but not the ones that could actually be well educated and raised to be healthy, productive members of society.

ETA: Sorry, I forgot why I quoted this post.  There should be a sense of shame for a man that abandons his kids, but in the same right there should be the same sense of shame for a woman that leaves the man & takes the kids on a whim (like she realizes that her husband isn't the only man out there with a penis and leaves him for some bs reason).  

Additionally, this is also complicated by the number of women in line with our current culture that think that once the man does his business, and she's pregnant, it's not longer his decision about any of it.

How can we expect a lot of men to have a sense of responsibility about these women when at a moments notice they can decide to have an abortion without his consent, or just up and leave him.

It goes both ways I'm afraid.

Quoted: I understand precisely where you are coming from, amigo, and I agree with you. I just think offering the option to people is a good way to make a bad situation less bad.

If they gave up their beer, cigarettes, porn, cable TV, Twinkies, cable internet and lottery tickets for ONE MONTH they could afford it themselves. They could afford most everything they need.

Its (largely) a myth that the poor are actually really poor. At least that's true here in America.

What we REALLY have is people  cronically making bad decisions repeatedly. And if the gov't makes it impossible for them to make one bad decision (cranking out another chitlin they cannot afford) they'll just make a DIFFERENT bad decision. Then where does it end? Where does the nanny state end?

For the most part, there are only two things that can rescue such people from themselves - Jesus Christ, and death. Rare is the individual that pulls themselves up out of the abyss of stupidity.

Thanks, bud! It's nice to see a bowl win from Big Red. Too bad it's the "Donny's House of Donuts" Bowl or something like that.

Better than the "Done in November, Spectator" bowl Tennessee went to.

Quoted: If men were smart they would go get fixed, like I did. Problem solved, and insurance pays for it. If you want another child later then you'll have to cough up the cash. I did it. I don't to bring up another child in this wacko world

That's an incredibly dumbassed thing to say.  The world has always been "this wacko" if not more.  If you don't want the responsibility of kids, that's fine---just say so, instead of making lame excuses.