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Posted: 12/27/2005 5:25:06 AM EDT
Article


NEW ORLEANS - Police officers shot and killed a man brandishing a knife in a confrontation that was partially videotaped by a bystander, setting off another internal investigation of the embattled department.

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Monday's daylight shooting was the first involving police since New Orleans reopened after Hurricane Katrina. It follows the videotaped police beating of a man that led to two firings in the department.

A police spokesman, David Adams, said the officers who fired on the man will be reassigned pending the outcome of the probe, but he defended their response, saying at least one officer's life was in danger just before the barrage of gunfire.

"You have a subject who's lunging at them with a knife... swinging wildly at them and they're fearing for their life," Adams said. "They had no other choice but to resort to lethal force."

Adams said he did not know how many officers fired shots or how many shots were fired. Witnesses said a half dozen or more shots were fired.

Officers repeatedly asked the man to drop the knife and used pepper spray to try to subdue him, but he covered his face with a cloth and continued walking toward an officer and threatening him, authorities said.

"Evidently, the pepper spray had no effect," Adams said.

The 38-year-old man's name was not immediately released.

A businessman had called police after a confrontation with the victim in the Lower Garden District west of downtown. The shooting happened on St. Charles Avenue, the thoroughfare famous for its historic green streetcars and Mardi Gras parades.

Phin Percy videotaped a portion of the confrontation before the shooting from his father's second-story apartment. "The cops kept telling him 'Lay down! Lay down!' This went on for about three minutes," he said.

While he was running downstairs, Percy said, he heard numerous shots. By the time he ran out the door, many more officers had arrived and the body was lying against a car.

When he reviewed his videotape, Percy said, he saw a small knife in the man's hand. The tape, broadcast nationally, appears to show about a dozen officers taking part in the confrontation.

Trey Brokaw, a patron at a nearby bar, said he saw the victim with a knife in his hand shortly before the shooting. "I didn't see anyone near him," Brokaw said. "It didn't seem like anyone was going to get hurt to me."

But Brokaw said he did not see what happened in the final moments before the shots rang out.

It was the first shooting of any kind involving a New Orleans officer since the city was officially reopened following Hurricane Katrina's devastation four months ago, Adams said.

Since the storm, the police department has struggled to rebuild its ranks and address questions about officers' conduct. Hundreds of officers left the city without permission in the days after the storm. There were also allegations of theft and looting by officers, still under investigation, and the videotaped beating of a retired teacher by police in the French Quarter that led to the firing of two officers. The police chief resigned a month after the storm.


Link Posted: 12/27/2005 5:26:43 AM EDT
I was wondering when this was going to be posted.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 5:27:35 AM EDT
Officers repeatedly asked the man to drop the knife and used pepper spray to try to subdue him, but he covered his face with a cloth and continued walking toward an officer and threatening him, authorities said.

"Evidently, the pepper spray had no effect," Adams said.


Evidently the bullets did.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 5:34:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 5:36:08 AM EDT by Hellhound]
Gee, guess those deadly Tasers would have been inhumane to use in a case like this??

ETA: Did they even have Tasers? I know in GA there is a group of idiots trying to get LE to drop them.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 5:41:51 AM EDT
Don't bring a knife to a gun fight
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 5:46:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hellhound:
Gee, guess those deadly Tasers would have been inhumane to use in a case like this??

ETA: Did they even have Tasers? I know in GA there is a group of idiots trying to get LE to drop them.

- Tasers, IMO, arent really meant to be used in a case like this. A lethal force threat should be responded to, in most cases, with lethal force. The suspect seemed to be moving around quite a bit (making a solid hit less likely) and he may have not been effected by it since the OC wasn't effecting him.

I've been in a very similar situation and there are about 100 ways it could go. I was fortunate in that the guy I was dealing with decided to put the knife down.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 5:50:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:

The suspect seemed to be moving around quite a bit (making a solid hit less likely) and he may have not been effected by it since the OC wasn't effecting him.







The newest Tasers will drop anyone, regardless of their state of mind or chemical intoxication.


You CAN'T tough it out. I watched them drop the toughest Marines for 3 days at a show. NOBODY is immune to it, it simply disrupts your electrical system.


PCP, drunk, crazy, super tough --- does matter, you will go down.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 5:50:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:

Originally Posted By Hellhound:
Gee, guess those deadly Tasers would have been inhumane to use in a case like this??

ETA: Did they even have Tasers? I know in GA there is a group of idiots trying to get LE to drop them.

- Tasers, IMO, arent really meant to be used in a case like this. A lethal force threat should be responded to, in most cases, with lethal force. The suspect seemed to be moving around quite a bit (making a solid hit less likely) and he may have not been effected by it since the OC wasn't effecting him.

I've been in a very similar situation and there are about 100 ways it could go. I was fortunate in that the guy I was dealing with decided to put the knife down.



Sounds like a good shoot.

A knife is certainly a deadly force insturment, and, they at least tried pepper spray first.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 5:52:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Don't bring a knife to a gun fight



Yep!
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 5:57:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:

The suspect seemed to be moving around quite a bit (making a solid hit less likely) and he may have not been effected by it since the OC wasn't effecting him.







The newest Tasers will drop anyone, regardless of their state of mind or chemical intoxication.


You CAN'T tough it out. I watched them drop the toughest Marines for 3 days at a show. NOBODY is immune to it, it simply disrupts your electrical system.


PCP, drunk, crazy, super tough --- does matter, you will go down.



Yup. We had a booth at Modern Day Marine Expo. The Taser guys were a couple of boothes down from us. A steady line of "I'm the baddest Marine" hit the deck screaming like babies. Not one guy was able to tough it out...not one. That little machine works every time.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 5:58:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LWilde:

Yup. We had a booth at Modern Day Marine Expo. The Taser guys were a couple of boothes down from us. A steady line of "I'm the baddest Marine" hit the deck screaming like babies. Not one guy was able to tough it out...not one. That little machine works every time.




I hung out there some and talked marines into trying it.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 6:01:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:





The newest Tasers will drop anyone, regardless of their state of mind or chemical intoxication.


You CAN'T tough it out. I watched them drop the toughest Marines for 3 days at a show. NOBODY is immune to it, it simply disrupts your electrical system.


PCP, drunk, crazy, super tough --- does matter, you will go down.

- uh, we use the X26 here and people can resist a hit. They are certainly the minority, but some do exist. Also, factor in that you often have to get an ideal spread for the dramatic drops that you see on TV/training.

I've taken hits and have used the tasers on people. I have a bit more than a fair understanding of their advantages and disadvantages.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 6:04:17 AM EDT
Good to hear things are getting back to normal in NOLA.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 6:25:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 6:26:20 AM EDT by AcidGambit]
As said, there are people who can resist and quite a few people get tased, fall, then jump back up and start fighting again.

NOPD 1, Bozo 0
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 6:27:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AcidGambit:

As said, there are people who can resist and quite a few people get tased, fall, then jump back up and start fighting again.

NOPD 1, Bozo 0





According to the Taser guys, it's neurological and nobody is immune to the new ones.


And......you recover very quickly from the new ones too - as soon as the juice is off, yes you can jump right up and attack again
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 6:35:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By AcidGambit:

As said, there are people who can resist and quite a few people get tased, fall, then jump back up and start fighting again.

NOPD 1, Bozo 0





According to the Taser guys, it's neurological and nobody is immune to the new ones.


And......you recover very quickly from the new ones too - as soon as the juice is off, yes you can jump right up and attack again

-
What the Taser guys are leaving out is that for the best chance of incapactating someone is to get as large of spread between the prongs as possible. The larger the spread, the more muscles that are affected by the energy. With a small spread, fewer muscles are recruited and there is less of an effect. Of course a suspect could tear the one of the prongs out as he falls, before he feels the effects, etc.

If you notice in demonstrations, the instructor is always at a point where he is going to get max spread of the prongs. Also, people psych themselves up for the pain that they think they are going to recieve and thus make the weapon appear even more ffective. This is much like the one hit KOs you see guys like George Dillman perform in martial art circles.

Dont get me wrong; I love having Tasers and know they are effective. However I realize they are far from perfect and try to always having someone backing me with lethal force if possible.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 6:51:29 AM EDT
The video sucks
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 6:52:19 AM EDT
These things happen!
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 6:56:28 AM EDT
-1 trouble maker.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:11:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By AcidGambit:

As said, there are people who can resist and quite a few people get tased, fall, then jump back up and start fighting again.

NOPD 1, Bozo 0





According to the Taser guys, it's neurological and nobody is immune to the new ones.


And......you recover very quickly from the new ones too - as soon as the juice is off, yes you can jump right up and attack again

-
What the Taser guys are leaving out is that for the best chance of incapactating someone is to get as large of spread between the prongs as possible. The larger the spread, the more muscles that are affected by the energy. With a small spread, fewer muscles are recruited and there is less of an effect. Of course a suspect could tear the one of the prongs out as he falls, before he feels the effects, etc.

If you notice in demonstrations, the instructor is always at a point where he is going to get max spread of the prongs. Also, people psych themselves up for the pain that they think they are going to recieve and thus make the weapon appear even more ffective. This is much like the one hit KOs you see guys like George Dillman perform in martial art circles.

Dont get me wrong; I love having Tasers and know they are effective. However I realize they are far from perfect and try to always having someone backing me with lethal force if possible.



This thing about the spread is proven simply by showing that if you drive stun somebody, it doesn't have nearly the effect of a good, full distance shot.

In this case, what if they HAD shot him with the Taser, and missed with one prong as he was lunging for one of the officers with a knife? Or if the prongs didn't properly penetrate? That happens all the time, it just doesn't make the news like a good taser victim.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:16:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By AcidGambit:

As said, there are people who can resist and quite a few people get tased, fall, then jump back up and start fighting again.

NOPD 1, Bozo 0





According to the Taser guys, it's neurological and nobody is immune to the new ones.


And......you recover very quickly from the new ones too - as soon as the juice is off, yes you can jump right up and attack again

-
What the Taser guys are leaving out is that for the best chance of incapactating someone is to get as large of spread between the prongs as possible. The larger the spread, the more muscles that are affected by the energy. With a small spread, fewer muscles are recruited and there is less of an effect. Of course a suspect could tear the one of the prongs out as he falls, before he feels the effects, etc.

If you notice in demonstrations, the instructor is always at a point where he is going to get max spread of the prongs. Also, people psych themselves up for the pain that they think they are going to recieve and thus make the weapon appear even more ffective. This is much like the one hit KOs you see guys like George Dillman perform in martial art circles.

Dont get me wrong; I love having Tasers and know they are effective. However I realize they are far from perfect and try to always having someone backing me with lethal force if possible.



I'll buy that, makes logical sense.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:18:28 AM EDT
OH, WTF??? they didn't even show the shot!!!

man, if it was me, there wouldn't have been all those cops around...
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:21:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 7:22:06 AM EDT by yugosksfan]
LOL, when I looked at the thread title, I thought, "How in the world does a person shoot someone with a knife?"



Looks like it's caffeine time for me!
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:25:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hardcorps1775:
OH, WTF??? they didn't even show the shot!!!

man, if it was me, there wouldn't have been all those cops around...




No video of the shot.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:27:55 AM EDT
I'm sure there is footage of the shoot, but was edited.


On the subjects of drive stuns.. I hit a guy with a drive stun along the brachial plexus. He screamed and fell away from me.. Once he was off the taser he was right back up for more.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:29:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
I'm sure there is footage of the shoot, but was edited.


On the subjects of drive stuns.. I hit a guy with a drive stun along the brachial plexus. He screamed and fell away from me.. Once he was off the taser he was right back up for more.



No more effective than the "stun gun" of old without the prong spread.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:30:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TexasEd:
Good to hear things are getting back to normal in NOLA.



Sounds like a suicide by cop deal if you ask me.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:30:31 AM EDT
Yep. Only cool thing about it was the fact when we took him to the hospital, my drive stun had left a burn mark from his collar bone down to his armpit.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:31:57 AM EDT
Bang, bang.

That's just down the street from the hotel I was staying at.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 9:07:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Bang, bang.

That's just down the street from the hotel I was staying at.



Heck, that's almost right across the street for the condo I used to own...

Go to Igors, Bama-Shooter... They have good burgers and the drinks are cheap.
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