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Posted: 12/24/2005 3:40:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2005 3:41:24 PM EDT by AmericanPatriot1776]
It is still one of the top man stoppers, so why do so few people or LEOs use it?

Due to it only being in revolvers and not semi-autos?

Typically slow to reload in revolvers?

Controlablilty?

Not PC?

All fo the above?

Any chance of .357 MAG semi autos???
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 3:43:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 3:45:36 PM EDT
It's a great round, but I think they give up firepower with a revolver. Reloads are a little slower, too. Coonan once made a .357 auto but it didn't go over very well.

If they can't hit what they're shooting at it doesn't matter what caliber they're using.

HH



Link Posted: 12/24/2005 3:47:50 PM EDT
I know several deputys use them still, my father used one for 20 years till Oklahoma Highway patrol went to the sig. I believe the main reason is that alot of the manufacurers are pushing the semi-auto line. I guess some depts gave into the capacity on semi-autos. reliability usually doesnt factor in on there desicions. Its all about the bottom dollar.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 3:48:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2005 3:49:03 PM EDT by sWs2]
You can buy Desert Eagles in .357 magnum...
ETA: or could at least...
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 3:49:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sWs2:
You can buy Desert Eagles in .357 magnum...



I haven't seen a Desert Eagle yet that's conducive to LEO carry.

HH
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 3:50:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HoustonHusker:

Originally Posted By sWs2:
You can buy Desert Eagles in .357 magnum...



I haven't seen a Desert Eagle yet that's conducive to LEO carry.

HH


I know, but the guy asked if they made semi's in .357 mag, though I'm sure the Desert Eagle would be quite intimidating for some gang banger to see pointed at them.

www.magnumresearch.com/desert_eagle_techdata.asp
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 3:52:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HoustonHusker:

Originally Posted By sWs2:
You can buy Desert Eagles in .357 magnum...



I haven't seen a Desert Eagle yet that's conducive to LEO carry.

HH



RoboCop could carry, like, four of them....sheesh.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 3:52:17 PM EDT
There are still a few small agencies that use revolvers, but I would place all blame on Glock. I would imagine that money plays a part in it also, it is cheaper to shoot 9mm and .40 than it is to shoot .357, especially when ammo manufacturers are awarded large contracts and have a high rate of output with their production of those calibers making it even more cost effective to buy them.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 3:54:55 PM EDT
Lowered standards?
Because 15-17 chances of hitting your target is better than 6.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 3:55:05 PM EDT
A lot of departments, even though they had 357 revolvers only carried 38s in them. That was the case here.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 4:00:29 PM EDT
One of the big security agencies (read Rent a cops) for the fed buildings in DC uses revolvers, not sure if they are .38 or .357, but they are nickle :P Securitos or wackenhut. Cant remember which, been awhile sence i was in DC (thank god).
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 4:04:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twonami:
Lowered standards?
Because 15-17 chances of hitting your target is better than 6.



it's easier to teach point and spray, or hope that mere "presense" stops an attacker, than it is to teach to shoot properly aimed shots.

Link Posted: 12/24/2005 4:06:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sWs2:

Originally Posted By HoustonHusker:

Originally Posted By sWs2:
You can buy Desert Eagles in .357 magnum...



I haven't seen a Desert Eagle yet that's conducive to LEO carry.

HH


I know, but the guy asked if they made semi's in .357 mag, though I'm sure the Desert Eagle would be quite intimidating for some gang banger to see pointed at them.

www.magnumresearch.com/desert_eagle_techdata.asp



It could/would be very intimidating for most people!

HH
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 4:07:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NAM:

Originally Posted By twonami:
Lowered standards?
Because 15-17 chances of hitting your target is better than 6.



it's easier to teach point and spray, or hope that mere "presense" stops an attacker, than it is to teach to shoot properly aimed shots.


- funny, all the qual tables I've shot require accurate hits, not "spray and pray".
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 4:11:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
A lot of departments, even though they had 357 revolvers only carried 38s in them. That was the case here.




I think that was about the norm everywhere, when it was found that modern 9mm defensive ammo was on par or better than the standard .38 loads carried in the revolvers I think it was common sense that dictated the switch over the semi autos. Supposedly the problems originated with LEOs cocking the hammer for a SA trigger pull, and accidentally shooting suspects and creating lawsuits. Many switched to hammerless DAO revolvers with heavy trigger pulls that made the firearm unaccurate with shooters who shoot to qualify maybe twice a year at best. Then came along the Glock which was demonstrated to have a safe action, high capacity, and easier trigger to manipulate than the DAO revolvers, not to mention weighing less with a 17 round magazine loaded than a loaded S&W service revolver.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 4:12:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2005 4:12:54 PM EDT by 2_of_5]

Originally Posted By HoustonHusker:

Originally Posted By sWs2:

Originally Posted By HoustonHusker:

Originally Posted By sWs2:
You can buy Desert Eagles in .357 magnum...



I haven't seen a Desert Eagle yet that's conducive to LEO carry.

HH


I know, but the guy asked if they made semi's in .357 mag, though I'm sure the Desert Eagle would be quite intimidating for some gang banger to see pointed at them.

www.magnumresearch.com/desert_eagle_techdata.asp




It could/would be very intimidating for most people!

HH




I thought that was a Glock site at first : "The Science of Kaboom"



Link Posted: 12/24/2005 4:14:02 PM EDT
I think Smith and Wesson had a very large portion of the police handgun market (revolver and semi) before Glock came onto the scene.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 4:15:15 PM EDT
They still do in a few states (Iowa is one that still uses S&W semis...)
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 4:16:13 PM EDT
.357 magnums are:

loud with lots of muzzle flash and recoil with no real ballistics advantage.

It requires long barrels (8") to obtain the ballistic advantages it offers.

In the end they have the same bullet as a 9 mm.

It has a rimmed case limiting it's use in autoloaders.

It is not a long, bulky cartridge

It is an antiquated cartridge.

Basically, there are better calibers available. Not the least of which is the good, old fashioned 45 ACP.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 5:21:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mike_Mills:
.357 magnums are:

loud with lots of muzzle flash and recoil with no real ballistics advantage.

It requires long barrels (8") to obtain the ballistic advantages it offers.

In the end they have the same bullet as a 9 mm.

It has a rimmed case limiting it's use in autoloaders.

It is not a long, bulky cartridge

It is an antiquated cartridge.

Basically, there are better calibers available. Not the least of which is the good, old fashioned 45 ACP.




????

hmmm....

can't really say I agree with much of the above!

what constitutes a good cartridge is a subject of debate, but 357 might very well be the most deadly cartridge avialable , no matter what barrel length is used.

the two negatives against the 357 are the sharp recoil/blast/flash and the fact that it is not used in autoloaders.

the plain jane revolver is on its way out.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 5:42:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 5:45:44 PM EDT
I wonder if it's just because revolvers look stupid with BDUs. Remember when cops looked like police instead of soldiers?
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 5:47:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2005 5:49:51 PM EDT by Charging_Handle]

Originally Posted By red65:

Originally Posted By Mike_Mills:
.357 magnums are:

loud with lots of muzzle flash and recoil with no real ballistics advantage.

It requires long barrels (8") to obtain the ballistic advantages it offers.

In the end they have the same bullet as a 9 mm.

It has a rimmed case limiting it's use in autoloaders.

It is not a long, bulky cartridge

It is an antiquated cartridge.

Basically, there are better calibers available. Not the least of which is the good, old fashioned 45 ACP.




????

hmmm....

can't really say I agree with much of the above!

what constitutes a good cartridge is a subject of debate, but 357 might very well be the most deadly cartridge avialable , no matter what barrel length is used.

the two negatives against the 357 are the sharp recoil/blast/flash and the fact that it is not used in autoloaders.

the plain jane revolver is on its way out.



Mike is dead on right in his assessment. To be honest, he was actually a bit kind to the .357 magnum.

The .357 Magnum offers nothing a good loading in 9mm. .40 or .45 can't equal or exceed. And considering that cartridge development for the .357 caliber is still stuck in the 1980's, that gives those other calibers an even greater advantage.

The .357 isn't anything special contrary to the stuff you read in gun rags. But I'd honestly rather have a good 9mm loaded with Speer 124 gr +P Gold Dots or Winchester Rangers. Why? Catridges for this caliber have been extensively tested and the latest generation of bullets (the most reliable in terms of expansion) have been tweaked to perfection, whereas the .357 has faded from LEO use and very little testing has been conducted for this caliber in the past 15 years. So when coupled with the increased mag capacities semis offer, it should come as no surprise that the .357 is no longer as popular as it once was.

The .357 drives a bullet at very high velocity and that accounts for big ft lbs of energy. But since ft. lbs of energy mean squat in terms of wounding effect (really, it's a pretty meaningless number), I don't see the advantage. That's especially true when considering the increased recoil and muzzle blast/flash associated with the hotter .357 loadings. Far more important than "energy dump" is actual bullet penetration and expansion. Those are the two things that do the actual damage. Therefore I'll take a 9mm with a load that offers say, 14" of penetration and expansion to around .65" (Winchester 147 gr Ranger) over a .357 magnum that offers penetration of around 10" while expanding to .50" and partially fragmenting (as the often cited 125 gr Federal "manstopper" performs). It doesn't take a lot of thought to realize a bullet that penetrates deeper and expands more will be the more effective round in identical situations. So when leaving out "energy dump" which is pure bunk anyway, the 9mm is clearly a superior caliber when used with proper ammunition.

BTW, there is the .357 Sig for those who want that extra zip, but I'll stick with my 9mm since it does what I want just fine.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 5:54:21 PM EDT
The .357 IS STILL the most effective self-defense handgun cartridge every produced.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 5:55:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tc6969:
Why is it that every time I see a guard climb out of an armored car at a bank or store they ALWAYS have a stainless revolver on their hip?

I noticed this a while back and started watching. Sure enough I havent seen an auto yet!



Maybe because the guards typicaly do not know how to clean a gun and keep it that way.
Stainless revolvers go bang and if they don't all you have to do is pull the trigger again. No such thing as stoppage drills.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 5:56:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twonami:
Lowered standards?
Because 15-17 chances of hitting your target is better than 6.



I can only speak for Michigan training standards, but they are higher than in the old revolver days.
It's a larger target but you must hit 100% to pass the MCOLES standard. The thing I like about the 9mm over the .357 was ammo capacity. I traded a 6 shot S&W Model 66 with 30 total rounds , ( two speedloaders and 12 in loops) for a 15 shot SIG 226 with 45 rounds total.

Reloading is quicker , easier under extreme stress with a pistol. Smaller officers can handle the recoil easier and follow up shots were quicker with a pistol.

I love my old S&W Model 66 , I was good with it, but it is a keepsake at this point. Give me a Glock or SIG anyday. It's seems like a good compromise would be a .357 SIG pistol.


( retired JBT and current police firearms instructor)
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 5:59:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:
The .357 IS STILL the most effective self-defense handgun cartridge every produced.



You are on crack.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 6:04:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NAM:

Originally Posted By twonami:
Lowered standards?
Because 15-17 chances of hitting your target is better than 6.



it's easier to teach point and spray, or hope that mere "presense" stops an attacker, than it is to teach to shoot properly aimed shots.




That would seem to fit with lowered hiring standards for some PD's and the disinterest among some officers in being able to shoot accurately. Imagine how a hostage would like this development if the shooting begins before rifles arrive on the scene.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 6:07:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By none:

Originally Posted By tc6969:
Why is it that every time I see a guard climb out of an armored car at a bank or store they ALWAYS have a stainless revolver on their hip?

I noticed this a while back and started watching. Sure enough I havent seen an auto yet!



Maybe because the guards typicaly do not know how to clean a gun and keep it that way.
Stainless revolvers go bang and if they don't all you have to do is pull the trigger again. No such thing as stoppage drills.



I think it is because you cant shoot a semi auto reliably out of the firing ports in the doors of the armored cars.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 6:09:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:
The .357 IS STILL the most effective self-defense handgun cartridge every produced.


Negative, Ghostrider....
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 6:15:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 6:21:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twonami:
Lowered standards?
Because 15-17 chances of hitting your target is better than 6.



Maybe not for the innocent bystander...
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 6:27:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 6:33:41 PM EDT
I carried a Revolver for 10 years of my career, the last five a Wondernine

Our duty load was winchester 38special +p 158 gr LSWCHP the load was stiff but nothing compared to 357 magnum

Why have LEO's stopped using 357 magnum ?

I suspect that not many Dept's used it
Most used 38 special ( 357 magnum has too much recoil for many people )
The transition from a 38special revolver to a Wondernine was a no-brainer for me
I believe some in Texas LE still use 357 revolvers
And I remember reading about a Dept somewhere where the Weather is cold a good portion of the year (Northern Michigan I think ) and they wanted good penetration with all the Heavy Winter Clothing and decided to stick with 357 magnum

Penetration is the reason that Texas DPS went after 357 sig
They had a couple instances of 45acp HP cavity getting plugged and not expanding and failing to stop the perp
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 6:45:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:
The .357 IS STILL the most effective self-defense handgun cartridge every produced.




Hmmm, I guess we'll just let nostalgia reign over facts tonight.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 6:49:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tc6969:
Why is it that every time I see a guard climb out of an armored car at a bank or store they ALWAYS have a stainless revolver on their hip?

I noticed this a while back and started watching. Sure enough I havent seen an auto yet!




When I worked armored car, 90% of us carried semis. The others that carried wheelguns did so because the company issued it to them. They carried it on the job, left it in the vault, then went home.

They got to shoot the gun twice a year.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 6:52:10 PM EDT
Oh God!!! Why do I bother reading this crap!!!!?

The blind leading the blind while patting each other on the back.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 7:10:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2005 7:12:07 PM EDT by Ardenner]

Originally Posted By tc6969:
Why is it that every time I see a guard climb out of an armored car at a bank or store they ALWAYS have a stainless revolver on their hip?

I noticed this a while back and started watching. Sure enough I havent seen an auto yet!



That’s odd because I have seen only Glocks. The President of Brinks Security has described the armored car people as “poorly trained thugs” to me.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 7:18:27 PM EDT
It's a wheel gun.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 7:36:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mike_Mills:
.357 magnums are:

loud with lots of muzzle flash and recoil with no real ballistics advantage.



Yep.

Ammo has advanced a lot since the .357 Mag was a common LE round. Unfortunately that development has focused on autoloader cartridges. So the revolver bullets have not seen the same improvements.

The best bullets in 9mm, .357Sig, .40SW and .45ACP perform about the same and they all perform better than most .357Mag ammo. One of the best .357Mag self defense loads, the Winchester Supreme 180Gn Partition Gold, was marketed as a hunting load and is now discontinued.

Do a search here ]www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=78] for more info. Most will find their assumptions about the effectiveness of the .357Mag are based on myth and 20 year old data.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 7:38:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By none:

Originally Posted By tc6969:
Why is it that every time I see a guard climb out of an armored car at a bank or store they ALWAYS have a stainless revolver on their hip?

I noticed this a while back and started watching. Sure enough I havent seen an auto yet!



Maybe because the guards typicaly do not know how to clean a gun and keep it that way.
Stainless revolvers go bang and if they don't all you have to do is pull the trigger again. No such thing as stoppage drills.



Many states have specifical laws dealing with which calibers, or even loads a security guard is allowed to carry.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 8:56:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 9:02:51 PM EDT
One word...

Progress
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 9:30:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2005 9:31:26 PM EDT by Manic_Moran]
For those of you weirdoes who want to shoot .357Magnum (or .38 Special) out of semi-autos, look for the Coonan .357 Magnum pistol, or in compact, the Coonan Cadet. (Later renamed Coonan .357 Baby)

There may be others. There's no particular reason you can't shoot a rimmed round out of an automatic, if they make it right.

NTM
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 10:16:03 PM EDT
Penetration? You get better penetration with heavier bullets.

The 9mm and .357 Sig are better with lighter bullets, but the .357 Magnum has 'em beat when using heavier bullets.

Link Posted: 12/24/2005 10:21:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By red65:
the plain jane revolver is on its way out.



For LEOs maybe, but I think it is still a lovely machine. I have a few S&W 686 and one 629, all with unfluted cylinders that are a pure pleasure to shoot.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 11:38:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By prk:

Originally Posted By NAM:

Originally Posted By twonami:
Lowered standards?
Because 15-17 chances of hitting your target is better than 6.



it's easier to teach point and spray, or hope that mere "presense" stops an attacker, than it is to teach to shoot properly aimed shots.




That would seem to fit with lowered hiring standards for some PD's and the disinterest among some officers in being able to shoot accurately. Imagine how a hostage would like this development if the shooting begins before rifles arrive on the scene.




Yeah, my dept has lowered our hiring standards....... And of course, we all are disinterested in shooting accurately.

Brian
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 11:49:14 PM EDT
revolvers are being left out nowadays

Link Posted: 12/24/2005 11:52:42 PM EDT
What about excessive penetration in a closed environment, i.e. a house? Is that a real problem with the

.357 or not? - Kool-Aid (LCA ts1337)
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 12:18:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Manic_Moran:
For those of you weirdoes who want to shoot .357Magnum (or .38 Special) out of semi-autos, look for the Coonan .357 Magnum pistol, or in compact, the Coonan Cadet. (Later renamed Coonan .357 Baby)

There may be others. There's no particular reason you can't shoot a rimmed round out of an automatic, if they make it right.

NTM


A number of years ago, I was interested, but never followed-through on buying a 357Mag Dan Coonan pistol(BTW: Coonan still services his Coonan 357s but he doens't make any new frames, he sells FN FAL clone receivers). There was also a 38spl +P conversion kit(comes with the correct recoil spring and mag). The LAR Grizzly, a monstrous 1911-type gun with the correct conversion kit can shoot the 45ACP, 45Win Mag, 357REm Mag, 10mm, 44Rem Mag, and 50AE.
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