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Posted: 12/23/2005 8:59:37 PM EDT
I know my friend that works for Austin PD says that they can qualify for AR-15s but not AKs. I guess the reasoning is that AKs just "look too evil" but that's sucks from the policeman's POV. Seems like a good deal of police shootouts involve shooting perps in cars and 7.62x39 would be better than 5.56 here so are there any other rifles that PDs can use that are larger caliber than 5.56?
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 9:00:09 PM EDT
different departments have different regs
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 9:00:59 PM EDT
Probably use ARs and forbid AKs because AKs suck.



Link Posted: 12/23/2005 9:01:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2005 9:02:53 PM EDT by Daytona955i]

Originally Posted By DukeSnookems:
I know my friend that works for Austin PD says that they can qualify for AR-15s but not AKs. I guess the reasoning is that AKs just "look too evil" but that's sucks from the policeman's POV. Seems like a good deal of police shootouts involve shooting perps in cars and 7.62x39 would be better than 5.56 here so are there any other rifles that PDs can use that are larger caliber than 5.56?



Anyway, some PD's would also have shotgun slugs and maybe something in a 7.62 nato, but it depends and it's never the same.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 9:02:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
different departments have different regs



+1

I've seen some strange shit in PD inventories.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 9:03:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
different departments have different regs



+1

I've seen some strange shit in PD inventories.



like the maricopa county sheriffs department's M109 howitzer, how's that for knockdown power?
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 9:04:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DukeSnookems:
I know my friend that works for Austin PD says that they can qualify for AR-15s but not AKs. I guess the reasoning is that AKs just "look too evil" but that's sucks from the policeman's POV. Seems like a good deal of police shootouts involve shooting perps in cars and 7.62x39 would be better than 5.56 here so are there any other rifles that PDs can use that are larger caliber than 5.56?





If you can't kill them with a 5.56mm, you need more range time.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 9:05:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
different departments have different regs



+1

I've seen some strange shit in PD inventories.



like the maricopa county sheriffs department's M109 howitzer, how's that for knockdown power?





More info please...
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 9:08:22 PM EDT
part of sheriff Arpaio's "war on drugs"
bottom of the page

I love how joe runs his prisons but he's a freaking whackjob
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 9:23:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
different departments have different regs



Ya, I know, let me rephrase: Are there any PDs that allow officers to carry assault weapons of larger caliber, if so, what assault weapons?

As a side note, can't wait for the SCAR-H! Maybe next Christmas...
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 9:49:17 PM EDT
There was an article in a gun mag years ago where a Deputy had an AK as his patrol rifle
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 9:50:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2005 9:52:07 PM EDT by DLoken]
So uh, I certainly hope the breech was torched on that howitzer. I mean seriously, the fucking police have no business running around with live artillary pieces. Police have enough NDs with their handguns.

I mean I could understand an APC, but what in fuck's name do they need self propelled artillary for. Does the DoD give old M113s to the police?
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 9:53:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
like the maricopa county sheriffs department's M109 howitzer, how's that for knockdown power?




That fucker needs to be comitted. then locked up.

the right OF THE PEOPLE. not the fricken local sherriff who thinks he's god. There is no fathomable excuse for needing something like that. And the "because i can" excuse is bullshit.

flame away.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:01:18 PM EDT
AR-15 and MP5
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:03:09 PM EDT
M1 carbines if you count that as an "assault" rifle.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:12:58 PM EDT
I want to know what they use the howitzer for, breaching bank vaults?
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:14:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2005 10:15:36 PM EDT by ALPHAGHOST]

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
different departments have different regs



+1

I've seen some strange shit in PD inventories.



+2

a couple of PD departments issue AKs in the US

besides, the AR platform is better overall for PD work (erogonamics, accuracy, easier familiarity w/ vets, etc)
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:22:00 PM EDT


They cannot carry any assault rifles.

When their hands magically touch an AR or similar piece,

it becomes a "PATROL RIFLE",

much less evil than an assault rifle, according to many press reports.

Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:30:43 PM EDT
AK's are not used just because the look bad. They are also not nearly as accurate as AR's.

Of course they are probably on par with Mini-14s that a lot of depts used to use back in the day. Still the trend over the years is for accuracy save the dept being sued for using a weapon known for its innaccuracy (compared to domestic product).

Also a LOT of PD's get USGI AR type weapons as surplus. So when the civy AR market took off there was already some what of a institutional inertia biased towards ARs. Add to that a lot of officers are current or former US service members.

Someone making a 1 moa AK that retains AK reliability and cost competive to an AR and you'd seem more depts using that version. But once you do that its not really an AK anymore...
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:39:00 PM EDT
"Assault weapon" is a legal term that only exists in a few states.

Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:59:57 PM EDT
Some town south of Tyler, Texas has its officers armed with AKs. I know because one of them bought my VEPR K, and carries it daily in hs cruiser.

There's also a couple of depts. in Oklahomo who carry them. When I go railfanning up there is when I see them.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 11:19:21 PM EDT
M16
M14
M4
AR15
Mini 14
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 11:23:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:
AK's are not used just because the look bad. They are also not nearly as accurate as AR's.

Of course they are probably on par with Mini-14s that a lot of depts used to use back in the day. Still the trend over the years is for accuracy save the dept being sued for using a weapon known for its innaccuracy (compared to domestic product).

Also a LOT of PD's get USGI AR type weapons as surplus. So when the civy AR market took off there was already some what of a institutional inertia biased towards ARs. Add to that a lot of officers are current or former US service members.

Someone making a 1 moa AK that retains AK reliability and cost competive to an AR and you'd seem more depts using that version. But once you do that its not really an AK anymore...



Yeah, it's a Sig 55X or a Valmet then.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 11:31:53 PM EDT
I heard some Detroit police officer have M1 carbines in thier trunks. I also heard that the Mini-14 was used
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 11:42:17 PM EDT
I think it's NY that still issues Mini 14s in some cases.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 11:46:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 20iner:
"Assault weapon" is a legal liberal term that only exists in a few states.




Fixed it for ya!

HS1
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 11:51:29 PM EDT
I know for a FACT, kcmo has several HK 91's.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 4:21:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By DukeSnookems:
I know my friend that works for Austin PD says that they can qualify for AR-15s but not AKs. I guess the reasoning is that AKs just "look too evil" but that's sucks from the policeman's POV. Seems like a good deal of police shootouts involve shooting perps in cars and 7.62x39 would be better than 5.56 here so are there any other rifles that PDs can use that are larger caliber than 5.56?





If you can't kill them with a 5.56mm, you need more range time.



I think he means it's alot easier to punch through vehicles being used as cover by bad guys, with an AK than a 5.56. 5.56 isn't so good for punching through windshields or car doors, let alone a bumper/trunk.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 4:35:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 4:42:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 4:52:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DukeSnookems:
I know my friend that works for Austin PD says that they can qualify for AR-15s but not AKs. I guess the reasoning is that AKs just "look too evil" but that's sucks from the policeman's POV. Seems like a good deal of police shootouts involve shooting perps in cars and 7.62x39 would be better than 5.56 here so are there any other rifles that PDs can use that are larger caliber than 5.56?



You can only carry what's on the approved list, and only after you go thru the carbine course. At the moment the only rifles approved are Colt and Bushie AR's. Rock River may get approved in future if enough officers buy them. I very highly doubt any com-Bloc weapon will ever get approved. You might as well wish for a Kar-98. It has nothing to do with PC, rather, it bears on quality/training.

Heck, there are several mainstream pistols out there that are not on the approved list either. Walther P99s for example.

It's no different from your pistol. You are allowed three pistols on your roster (on duty/off duty). They must be from the approved list, you must supply them, and you need to keep the qualification current. Mine are a Beretta 92, A Beretta 2000S, and my original S@W 66.

BTW: Where do you get this idea tha 5.56mm won't penetrate a car?
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 5:02:11 AM EDT
Hi-Point 9mm Carbine with compinsator, laser, and a Tac Point.




Yes. I own it.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 5:06:19 AM EDT
My personal theory is that there would be a few valid reasons for not approving AK's. First they are imported by several different importers with wildly varying levels of quality, reliability, and accuracy. In addition, the quality and availability of certain AK variants could vary wildly over time, so it would be a nightmare for a PD with strict guidelines on approved weapons to keep up with the ever-changing availabilities and quality levels.

Then of course you have the training argument of most cops being ex-servicemen.

And of course the general accuracy issue.

Another thought might be that some dept's consider the AR more "patriotic" in that it's a child of American industry and virtually ALL AR's are made here in the USA. Although the huge number of HK and Beretta firearms being carried by police today kinda negates that argument. But... in the case of HK and Beretta quality is NOT an issue, nor is spotty availability, etc...

And Yes I know that Berettas are not always imported, but could be domestically produced. Aren't they?
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 5:08:30 AM EDT
OH one more thought. AR's have almost 100% parts interchangeability even between brands... Try just snapping AK parts off one rifle and onto another...

I'm not sure, but I would imagine Romanian parts going into a Chinese rifle might be difficult.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 5:22:29 AM EDT
I carried a L1A1 and/or Colt Carbine.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 5:32:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By the_great_snag:And Yes I know that Berettas are not always imported, but could be domestically produced. Aren't they?

Yes, made in Maryland.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 5:36:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Melvinator2k0:
M1 carbines if you count that as an "assault" rifle.



Nope. But then again I don't consider an AR or AK an "assault rifle" unless they have that magic selector switch that says "auto".
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 5:45:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kissfan:

Originally Posted By Melvinator2k0:
M1 carbines if you count that as an "assault" rifle.



Nope. But then again I don't consider an AR or AK an "assault rifle" unless they have that magic selector switch that says "auto".



So burst is out as an option?
You don't see a lot of agencies approving AK-family weapons because a lot of the quality issues, training courses are not geared towards that platform, the relative lack of any quality duty ammo, etc. Its tough enough getting ANY rifle approved, even after Columbine, N Hollywood, etc, in some agencies, let alone an AK type weapon.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 5:52:24 AM EDT
No rifles here unless you are on SWAT (they have mostly UMPS and a few Bushy ARs). For patrol its just an 870 with 00 Buck.. no slugs for us.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 5:52:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DukeSnookems:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
different departments have different regs



Ya, I know, let me rephrase: Are there any PDs that allow officers to carry assault weapons of larger caliber, if so, what assault weapons?

As a side note, can't wait for the SCAR-H! Maybe next Christmas...



My friend's dad works for the Montana Highway Patrol. He was saying they were going to let them carry M1A's in their cars soon. Out in the open area's of Montana you're probably gonna need something like that. He really liked my FAL when I showed it to him. He also liked my dog and did not shoot him
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 5:53:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Melvinator2k0:
M1 carbines if you count that as an "assault" rifle.



They do in new jersey and will give you ten years for processing one, THE FUCKING FUCKS!
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 7:39:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
part of sheriff Arpaio's "war on drugs"
bottom of the page

I love how joe runs his prisons but he's a freaking whackjob



Tell the truth...if YOU were Sheriff and YOU could buy one for "official use" would you?

Link Posted: 12/24/2005 7:41:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
part of sheriff Arpaio's "war on drugs"
bottom of the page

I love how joe runs his prisons but he's a freaking whackjob



Tell the truth...if YOU were Sheriff and YOU could buy one for "official use" would you?




I'd spring for an M60 tank instead
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 7:41:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DukeSnookems:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
different departments have different regs



Ya, I know, let me rephrase: Are there any PDs that allow officers to carry assault weapons of larger caliber, if so, what assault weapons?

As a side note, can't wait for the SCAR-H! Maybe next Christmas...



Not quite a "patrol weapon" but SWAT snipers/observers usually have .308s.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 7:42:37 AM EDT
TOTALLY EVIL AR15 SEMI AUTO ASSAULT RIFLE MACHINE GUN.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 8:37:44 AM EDT



BTW: Where do you get this idea tha 5.56mm won't penetrate a car?



It's been proven over and over to not be a reliable manstopper after going through typical automobile body/glass. Tends to fragment, so while the perp may be wounded, it's not a very deep wound. Or he just gets peppered with fragments. Don't take my word for it; research it yourself.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 10:32:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
BTW: Where do you get this idea tha 5.56mm won't penetrate a car?



Huh? Where did I say it won't penetrate a car? I said "Seems like a good deal of police shootouts involve shooting perps in cars and 7.62x39 would be better than 5.56" IOW, I'm saying a 7.62 x 39 will do more damage to a person than 5.56 after passing though a barrier like through a car door, firewall, or windshield. 5.56 relies heavily on fragmention inside of soft tissue to do damage, and that's not going to happen if it loses much of its energy to a barrier.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 10:35:12 AM EDT
The whole car scenario is a relativenon-issue. If the vehicle is moving, most agencies aren't going to let the officer shoot at it except in a most extreme case. If its a baricaded subject inside a stationary vehicle, the SRT guys with their bolt .308s should do just fine.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 10:42:31 AM EDT
I know of one county sheriff who built himself a blackpowder howitzer and started towing it behind his truck to calls for the intimidation value. He's never once considered firing it at a suspect, but he did get some bank robbers to surrender when he started bringing the cannon into position.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 10:58:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Swindle1984:
I know of one county sheriff who built himself a blackpowder howitzer and started towing it behind his truck to calls for the intimidation value. He's never once considered firing it at a suspect, but he did get some bank robbers to surrender when he started bringing the cannon into position.



That... is... amazing.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 11:05:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By DukeSnookems:
I know my friend that works for Austin PD says that they can qualify for AR-15s but not AKs. I guess the reasoning is that AKs just "look too evil" but that's sucks from the policeman's POV. Seems like a good deal of police shootouts involve shooting perps in cars and 7.62x39 would be better than 5.56 here so are there any other rifles that PDs can use that are larger caliber than 5.56?





If you can't kill them with a 5.56mm, you need more range time.




He is talking about shooting through cover/barricade. Something the 5.56 is piss poor at, and 7.62 variants do well.
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