What "assault rifles" can police carry? - Page 2

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - What "assault rifles" can police carry? (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 12/24/2005 11:15:18 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
The whole car scenario is a relativenon-issue. If the vehicle is moving, most agencies aren't going to let the officer shoot at it except in a most extreme case. If its a baricaded subject inside a stationary vehicle, the SRT guys with their bolt .308s should do just fine.

I disagree. Many shootings seem to occur when or right after a stop is made before SRT has a chance to show up. Whatever the rate, it's often enough that I wouldn't call it a "non-issue." As for shooting moving vehicles, I didn't have that in mind but the need does come up (check out that video from Plano a few months ago) where the police car was sprayed and they finally took out the BGs by shooting their car while it was moving.

Posted: 12/24/2005 11:19:01 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Quoted:
The whole car scenario is a relativenon-issue. If the vehicle is moving, most agencies aren't going to let the officer shoot at it except in a most extreme case. If its a baricaded subject inside a stationary vehicle, the SRT guys with their bolt .308s should do just fine.

I disagree. Many shootings seem to occur when or right after a stop is made before SRT has a chance to show up. Whatever the rate, it's often enough that I wouldn't call it a "non-issue." As for shooting moving vehicles, I didn't have that in mind but the need does come up (check out that video from Plano a few months ago) where the police car was sprayed and they finally took out the BGs by shooting their car while it was moving.

I stand by my comments. Most agencies will not let an officer shoot at a moving car in most cases.

As for traffic stops, how often do you see the officer have time to retrieve a long gun? They generally have the pistol on their hip and thats it. You'll see a long gun deployed on calls , not traffic stops.

I saw the TX video. Pretty rough situation.

Posted: 12/24/2005 11:31:21 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
I love how joe runs his prisons but he's a freaking whackjob

Good thing he's elected and not appointed.

Posted: 12/24/2005 11:46:36 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The whole car scenario is a relativenon-issue. If the vehicle is moving, most agencies aren't going to let the officer shoot at it except in a most extreme case. If its a baricaded subject inside a stationary vehicle, the SRT guys with their bolt .308s should do just fine.

I disagree. Many shootings seem to occur when or right after a stop is made before SRT has a chance to show up. Whatever the rate, it's often enough that I wouldn't call it a "non-issue." As for shooting moving vehicles, I didn't have that in mind but the need does come up (check out that video from Plano a few months ago) where the police car was sprayed and they finally took out the BGs by shooting their car while it was moving.

I stand by my comments. Most agencies will not let an officer shoot at a moving car in most cases.

As for traffic stops, how often do you see the officer have time to retrieve a long gun? They generally have the pistol on their hip and thats it. You'll see a long gun deployed on calls , not traffic stops.

I saw the TX video. Pretty rough situation.

FIVE SEVEN!!

Posted: 12/24/2005 11:51:00 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

FIVE SEVEN!!

Limited application.

Posted: 12/24/2005 12:00:57 PM EDT

[#6]

It varies all over the country...

...However PDs don't have to worry about little things like MG bans that use mere peons worry about...

Posted: 12/24/2005 12:14:00 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
[I stand by my comments. Most agencies will not let an officer shoot at a moving car in most cases.

No argument there

As for traffic stops, how often do you see the officer have time to retrieve a long gun? They generally have the pistol on their hip and thats it. You'll see a long gun deployed on calls , not traffic stops.

The 2 most infamous shootouts of all time, Miami and N Hollywood. They weren't traffic stops but in both situations, the BGs took cover behind/inside cars, there was time for the officers/FBI agents to retrieve a rifle, and having one at the ready would have undoubtedly ended the situation sooner and possibly saved lives (in the case of Miami).

Posted: 12/24/2005 12:29:26 PM EDT

[#8]

Mostly AR-15s or govt surplus M-16 and M-14 'assault rifles'

Posted: 12/24/2005 12:33:56 PM EDT

[#9]

Alaska State Troopers use a AK variant as their patrol rifle, supposedly Ar's couldn't handle the extreme conditions and had too many malfunctions.

Posted: 12/24/2005 12:37:23 PM EDT

[#10]

Here in Shreveport for instance no rifles allowed, accross the Red in Bossier one of the best armed PDs in the state.

Posted: 12/24/2005 12:52:11 PM EDT

[#11]

Maybe I'm silly, and no offense to you AK guys out there, but I don't find the AK very suitable for another reason. It has a terribly located safety.

With an AR you can cover a suspect with your weapon safed and instantly switch to fire mode without removing your trigger hand from the weapon. This should be a requirement for any LE weapon.

A military unit probably doesn't ahve to worry quite as much about safing their weapons during combat, so an AK would be better in that application.

Another drawback is reloading. With an AR, if you are silly enough to let it run dry you can simply swap mags and slam the bolt catch with your off hand. With an AK, you still have to change out the mag (did I mention this is slightly more difficult on an AK?) and then you have to rack the bolt to chamber the first round. If you let it run dry...

Anyway, why not just get an AR10 or an FAL (from a reputable builder of them) if you want the larger caliber? M14's would be great too. But it should be something with easily interchangeable parts and consistent quality between different versions. .308's would seem to definitely be preferable to the 7.62x39, especially when carried in a patrol car where weight and ammo loadout considerations are not a factor.

Posted: 12/24/2005 12:57:10 PM EDT

[#12]

Locally I know that the Kalamazoo County Sheriff's Dept Deputies can carry these long arms
Remington 870 (supplied by agency, in ALL cruisers)
Semi-auto M-14 (supplied by dept to those who qualify, but there is a limited supply. On loan from MI ANG)
SA HK G36 (supplied by dept to qualified Sgts and above)
Colt/Bushmaster/Armalite (and other mil-spec or better) AR-15s (supplied by individual deputy, and he must qualify with the weapon)

One of the deputies that works with my dad was involved in a shooting and his eotch equipped AR was used to send the b.g. to meet his maker.

MI State Troopers carry HK53s. All are SBR, but a few are FA as well. The aformentioned shooting also involved a MSP trooper who used his HK. He had no hits on the b.g. and it jammed after the third round.

The sidearm for both agencies is the Sig Sauer P226 in .40. Very nice weapon.

Other local depts will allow the officer to carry almost anything, so long as he supplies it. I know of one officer who carries a USAS 12, and an AK as well.

Posted: 12/24/2005 12:59:10 PM EDT

[#13]

I know of a police officer who has qualified with his Barrett M82A1 and is approved to carry it. He doesn't because of the size/bulk, though should the SHTF and they get into a situation where its needed, SOP's and Quals are already taken care of

Posted: 12/24/2005 2:22:40 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Alaska State Troopers use a AK variant as their patrol rifle, supposedly Ar's couldn't handle the extreme conditions and had too many malfunctions.

Absolutly 100% pure grade-A bullshit. Where the hell did you hear that?

Todays AR is just as 'reliable' as today's AK. Troopers use ARs.

Posted: 12/24/2005 2:47:21 PM EDT

[#15]

what ever is authorized by their department. So in my case the chief authorizes a remington 7615 pump action. cause it is less intimidation and rifle sights are easier to use than peep sights or ghost ring sights.

Posted: 12/24/2005 7:19:42 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Alaska State Troopers use a AK variant as their patrol rifle, supposedly Ar's couldn't handle the extreme conditions and had too many malfunctions.

Absolutly 100% pure grade-A bullshit. Where the hell did you hear that?

Todays AR is just as 'reliable' as today's AK.

Extreme cold is one of the few situations where the AK really does do much better than the AR.

It has a much stronger case ejection [needed in snow], and the looser tolerances prevent excess friction from parts contracting due to the cold weather.

ARs also have problems in sandy areas, but this can be worked around somewhat by keeping the rifle away from lose sand and using a dry lube.

It's a lot harder to work around extreme cold.

How many times have you fired either type of weapon in -20 degree weather?

Then take it from someone who has: Artic cold is one of the few situations in which I'd rather have an AK in my hands.

Troopers use ARs.

I remember about 10 years ago seeing an Alaskan state trooper with an AK patrol rifle [or was it a Galil? My memory fades]. Of course, that could have changed since then.

Posted: 12/24/2005 7:32:32 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Alaska State Troopers use a AK variant as their patrol rifle, supposedly Ar's couldn't handle the extreme conditions and had too many malfunctions.

Absolutly 100% pure grade-A bullshit. Where the hell did you hear that?

Todays AR is just as 'reliable' as today's AK. Troopers use ARs.

Hes not necessarily full of shit they use Galils ARs did not holdup in the test.

Posted: 12/24/2005 7:42:07 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Alaska State Troopers use a AK variant as their patrol rifle, supposedly Ar's couldn't handle the extreme conditions and had too many malfunctions.

Absolutly 100% pure grade-A bullshit. Where the hell did you hear that?

Todays AR is just as 'reliable' as today's AK.

Extreme cold is one of the few situations where the AK really does do much better than the AR.

It has a much stronger case ejection [needed in snow], and the looser tolerances prevent excess friction from parts contracting due to the cold weather.

ARs also have problems in sandy areas, but this can be worked around somewhat by keeping the rifle away from lose sand and using a dry lube.

It's a lot harder to work around extreme cold.

How many times have you fired either type of weapon in -20 degree weather?

Then take it from someone who has: Artic cold is one of the few situations in which I'd rather have an AK in my hands.

Troopers use ARs.

I remember about 10 years ago seeing an Alaskan state trooper with an AK patrol rifle [or was it a Galil? My memory fades]. Of course, that could have changed since then.

I have fired my AR in -40. Runs fine. Am I the only person who owns an AR without any bullshit - bandwagon - I read - it - once - then - it - happened - to - me - on - one - occasion - so - it - must be - true problems?

You may have seen a pic of an AK trooper with an AK, but they do not strictly use them. They use ARs as a standard. AKs have never been standard. Take it from someone who lives in Alaska. They do not use AKs.

Posted: 12/24/2005 7:43:19 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Alaska State Troopers use a AK variant as their patrol rifle, supposedly Ar's couldn't handle the extreme conditions and had too many malfunctions.

Absolutly 100% pure grade-A bullshit. Where the hell did you hear that?

Todays AR is just as 'reliable' as today's AK. Troopers use ARs.

Hes not necessarily full of shit they use Galils ARs did not holdup in the test.

No they don't.

What 'test' are you talking about?

Maybe the 10+ AK state troopers I have talked to are the only 10 who have ARs in their cars.

Posted: 12/24/2005 10:31:14 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Alaska State Troopers use a AK variant as their patrol rifle, supposedly Ar's couldn't handle the extreme conditions and had too many malfunctions.

Not so. Most AK like rifle I know AK cops to use was Anchorage PD Sig 552s.

Posted: 12/24/2005 10:34:19 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I know my friend that works for Austin PD says that they can qualify for AR-15s but not AKs. I guess the reasoning is that AKs just "look too evil" but that's sucks from the policeman's POV. Seems like a good deal of police shootouts involve shooting perps in cars and 7.62x39 would be better than 5.56 here so are there any other rifles that PDs can use that are larger caliber than 5.56?

If you can't kill them with a 5.56mm, you need more range time.

I think he means it's alot easier to punch through vehicles being used as cover by bad guys, with an AK than a 5.56. 5.56 isn't so good for punching through windshields or car doors, let alone a bumper/trunk.

Ever shoot 5.56 into a car? I have. Penetrated both doors. Used three types of ammo in our test too. All penetrated.

Posted: 12/24/2005 10:39:42 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I know my friend that works for Austin PD says that they can qualify for AR-15s but not AKs. I guess the reasoning is that AKs just "look too evil" but that's sucks from the policeman's POV. Seems like a good deal of police shootouts involve shooting perps in cars and 7.62x39 would be better than 5.56 here so are there any other rifles that PDs can use that are larger caliber than 5.56?

If you can't kill them with a 5.56mm, you need more range time.

He is talking about shooting through cover/barricade. Something the 5.56 is piss poor at, and 7.62 variants do well.

It's a trade off. 5.56 is more deadly to targets hit in the open, and less likely to overpenetrate a bad guy or wall. I think that LE is VERY unlikely to fire at someone barricaded behind something that can stop 5.56, but not 7.62.

7.62 is also less controllable.

Posted: 12/25/2005 4:32:47 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I know my friend that works for Austin PD says that they can qualify for AR-15s but not AKs. I guess the reasoning is that AKs just "look too evil" but that's sucks from the policeman's POV. Seems like a good deal of police shootouts involve shooting perps in cars and 7.62x39 would be better than 5.56 here so are there any other rifles that PDs can use that are larger caliber than 5.56?

If you can't kill them with a 5.56mm, you need more range time.

I think he means it's alot easier to punch through vehicles being used as cover by bad guys, with an AK than a 5.56. 5.56 isn't so good for punching through windshields or car doors, let alone a bumper/trunk.

Ever shoot 5.56 into a car? I have. Penetrated both doors. Used three types of ammo in our test too. All penetrated.

I personally have not. Never had the opportunity. I have seen several tests of this, and by and large, after punching through a car door, or even a windshield, the bullet was not intact. It had fragmented badly. So technically, yes, it did penetrate the vehicle, but no, it probably wouldn't inflict a fatal wound. I recall that FBI testing showed this phemomenon. What did your testing show? Type of vehicle/thickness of sheet metal can be a factor too.

I did extensive searching and could not find the actual FBI results/test protocols. IF someone can, please post the link here.

An older car, made of thicker sheet metal vs a modern one may well show a marked difference in fragmentation, I'd imagine.

Posted: 12/25/2005 4:46:10 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
No rifles here unless you are on SWAT (they have mostly UMPS and a few Bushy ARs). For patrol its just an 870 with 00 Buck.. no slugs for us.

Youre either SWAT or yor not

I have an M-4 in my cruiser and access to my old MP-5 if needed. I traded the MP-5 for the M-16A1 which I then tricked out. Plus I have an 870 W/ 00 Buck. No slugs allowed here either.

Posted: 12/25/2005 5:55:09 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Youre either SWAT or yor not
.

- and I've been working to change that for the past couple years. The rifles that is; not the SWAT thing

Posted: 12/25/2005 6:17:39 AM EDT

[#26]

Good luck, every officershould have access to a rifle.

Posted: 12/25/2005 6:23:38 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

The 2 most infamous shootouts of all time, Miami and N Hollywood. They weren't traffic stops but in both situations, the BGs took cover behind/inside cars, there was time for the officers/FBI agents to retrieve a rifle, and having one at the ready would have undoubtedly ended the situation sooner and possibly saved lives (in the case of Miami).

Actually, Miami could very well have been seen as a traffic stop, since thats how the shoot out started.

The post you quoted was referring solely to traffic stops; of course there are other scenarios such as N Hollywood. I am a big advocate of rifles myself, no mistaking that.

Posted: 12/25/2005 6:32:38 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The whole car scenario is a relativenon-issue. If the vehicle is moving, most agencies aren't going to let the officer shoot at it except in a most extreme case. If its a baricaded subject inside a stationary vehicle, the SRT guys with their bolt .308s should do just fine.

I disagree. Many shootings seem to occur when or right after a stop is made before SRT has a chance to show up. Whatever the rate, it's often enough that I wouldn't call it a "non-issue." As for shooting moving vehicles, I didn't have that in mind but the need does come up (check out that video from Plano a few months ago) where the police car was sprayed and they finally took out the BGs by shooting their car while it was moving.

I stand by my comments. Most agencies will not let an officer shoot at a moving car in most cases.

As for traffic stops, how often do you see the officer have time to retrieve a long gun? They generally have the pistol on their hip and thats it. You'll see a long gun deployed on calls , not traffic stops.

I saw the TX video. Pretty rough situation.

FIVE SEVEN!!

With SS190 rounds.

"Windscreens and vehicle doors are not an impediment for the SS190 round" the ad video claims.

Posted: 12/25/2005 1:55:35 PM EDT

[#29]

We carry Colt M4s as issued. If you want to buy your own, then sky's the limit, so long as it's an AR-style rifle from the "approved list".

We have some G36s and 36Ks in the armsroom that some of the swat guys like to take out. I personally prefer my M4. I had a G36k issued to me when we first got them...fun gun but the intergrated optic is t3h suck. FWIW....we dont use the 36s anymore, they just sit around and collect dust. Actually, I take that back...every time we have a Police Day or somesuch other thing, we have to drag em out and display next to all our other swat goodies...cause they look cool.

Anyone who's gone to the right school can deploy an M1A....or supply their own, again from an "approved list".

Otherwise, that's it.

Sheep

Posted: 12/25/2005 2:28:04 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
I personally have not. Never had the opportunity. I have seen several tests of this, and by and large, after punching through a car door, or even a windshield, the bullet was not intact. It had fragmented badly. So technically, yes, it did penetrate the vehicle, but no, it probably wouldn't inflict a fatal wound. I recall that FBI testing showed this phemomenon. What did your testing show? Type of vehicle/thickness of sheet metal can be a factor too.

I did extensive searching and could not find the actual FBI results/test protocols. IF someone can, please post the link here.

An older car, made of thicker sheet metal vs a modern one may well show a marked difference in fragmentation, I'd imagine.

Car was a Crown Vic, mid 90s. So its a pretty heavily built sedan, by modern standards. At 10 feet, from a 90 degree angle, M193 went through one door and fragmented in the second. M855 penetrated both doors, and 75gr .223 TAP left a BIG hole all the way through. Yes, there was some fragmentation. But ALL of them would have fucked up a passenger BAD. Especially the TAP. Would I expect a single round to achieve an immediate cessation in hostilities? No. Thats what follow up shots are for.

Posted: 12/25/2005 3:00:05 PM EDT

[#31]

California State Fish & Game officers carry M1A Scouts with Winchester ammo.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - What "assault rifles" can police carry? (Page 2 of 2)

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