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Posted: 12/22/2005 4:37:08 PM EDT
†—9mm Luger +P+ ammunition is loaded on request for special LE application. Pressures are as much as 22 greater than industry standards. Purchasers must be able to affirm that +P+ ammunition is for law enforcement/government use only.

Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:39:18 PM EDT
BS.


find a different seller.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:40:23 PM EDT
Cause Winchester sucks.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:40:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NAM:
BS.


find a different seller.



+1

i get Win Rangers +P+ 9mm from the EE...
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:40:54 PM EDT
This is CCI/Speer not Winchester
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:41:31 PM EDT
Because LEOs are the only folks professional enough to handle that much power.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:41:53 PM EDT
because they want to kill ur dog with 1 round. mmm sorry couldnt help it. im wacky ya know.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:43:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Delta_3_63:
Because LEOs are the only folks professional enough to handle that much power wear out their guns.

Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:44:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CRC:
This is CCI/Speer not Winchester



Still bro...., unless it's now become Speer's corp. policy...a'la Colt etc.


Sheep
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:45:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:45:45 PM EDT
What is a 9mm +P+ = to anyway? A .38 Super?
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:57:43 PM EDT
Might not find a dealer who wants to sell it,
but you can always find SOMEONE who has it for sale.

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=287007&highlight=ranger
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:05:45 PM EDT

Damn just buy CorBon ammo, its as fast or faster than +p+
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:07:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Delta_3_63:
Because LEOs are the only folks professional enough to handle that much power.



Yeah, that explains what happened to the 10mm lol...
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:08:02 PM EDT
Get something in 45 ACP.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:11:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
What is a 9mm +P+ = to anyway? A .38 Super?



RA9TA 9mm +P+ 127g bullet 1250 fps 441 ft*lbs

38 special Silvertip 110g bullet 945 fps 218 ft*lbs

357 mag Silvertip 145g bullet 1290 fps 535 ft*lbs

40 S&W Silvertip 155g bullet 1205 fps 500 ft*lbs

10mm Silvertip 175g bullet 1290 fps 649 ft*lbs

Obviously the 9mm +P+ is nothing to sneeze at.

I didn't know Winchester was making 500 Magnum ammo.

500 S&W Mag 400g bullet 1800 fps 2877 ft*lbs

Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:14:56 PM EDT
Doesn't say anything about LEO only here

9mm +P+ Link
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:17:25 PM EDT
Yea, because those were designed for submachine guns, and loaded to higher pressures.
(if I remember the explaination correctly)

They are not headstamped +P+.

Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:17:29 PM EDT
Its a CYA measure. When some retard tries to fire it in his ancient Astra blowback and ends up getting f-ed up, he won't have much to stand on legally.

Should be fine in a modern pistol.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:17:33 PM EDT
http://www.georgia-arms.com/shear.htm

9mm GOLD DOT [blah] Ft-lbs ft/sec
G9MMF 115gr Hollow Point +P $13.50 $26.50 $260.00 399 1250
G9MMH 124gr Hollow Point +P $13.50 $26.50 $260.00 396 1200
G9MMI 147gr Hollow Point +P $14.00 $27.50 $270.00 359 1050
GMM+P+ 115gr Hollow Point +P+ $15.75 $31.00 $305.00 431 1300

Nickel cased Gold Dot hollow pointy goodness.

I carry the 147 grain. Shooting it out of a G19 is very low recoil.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:19:50 PM EDT
Well I don't have a bit of trouble getting it. Have plenty of Federal P9HS3GI 124grLE [+P+]hydrashoks on hand. Cost me about $25 per 50. Also Corbon 115grain running about 1350fps. I do take care to maintain recoil springs and change them out before I normally would.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:27:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JoeWang:
http://www.georgia-arms.com/shear.htm

9mm GOLD DOT [blah] Ft-lbs ft/sec
G9MMF 115gr Hollow Point +P $13.50 $26.50 $260.00 399 1250
G9MMH 124gr Hollow Point +P $13.50 $26.50 $260.00 396 1200
G9MMI 147gr Hollow Point +P $14.00 $27.50 $270.00 359 1050
GMM+P+ 115gr Hollow Point +P+ $15.75 $31.00 $305.00 431 1300

Nickel cased Gold Dot hollow pointy goodness.

I carry the 147 grain. Shooting it out of a G19 is very low recoil.

Just beat me.

Highlighted the dubject matter.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:28:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By zipper:
Doesn't say anything about LEO only here

9mm +P+ Link

I've bought and used that ammo on several occasion.

I just wish there wasn't so many dud rounds.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:29:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Reaper:

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
What is a 9mm +P+ = to anyway? A .38 Super?



RA9TA 9mm +P+ 127g bullet 1250 fps 441 ft*lbs

38 special Silvertip 110g bullet 945 fps 218 ft*lbs

357 mag Silvertip 145g bullet 1290 fps 535 ft*lbs

40 S&W Silvertip 155g bullet 1205 fps 500 ft*lbs

10mm Silvertip 175g bullet 1290 fps 649 ft*lbs

Obviously the 9mm +P+ is nothing to sneeze at.

I didn't know Winchester was making 500 Magnum ammo.

500 S&W Mag 400g bullet 1800 fps 2877 ft*lbs




damn thats all +p+ 9mm can do i will take 9mm+P 115gr Gold Dot JHP at 115gr @ 1415fps / 511ft. lbs. from a G17.

www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_37&products_id=119
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:30:11 PM EDT
I have a couple hundred rounds of it.

I carry a 1911 though. Anyone want to trade?
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:30:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GiggleSmith:

Originally Posted By zipper:
Doesn't say anything about LEO only here

9mm +P+ Link

I've bought and used that ammo on several occasion.

I just wish there wasn't so many dud rounds.



copied from here: http://glocktalk.com/sitemap/topic/325761-1.html

Dear Mr. McPherson,

Please be informed that the respective ammunition has been made according to a
specific request for authority uses only. This particular ammunition has
never been designed for circulation in civilian circles. We kindly ask you
to refrain from using it at all.

We trust this is clear and remain

Sincerely,

Michael Lang
Head of Sales
Hirtenberger Defence Systems
Leobersdorferstrasse 31-33
A-2552 HIRTENBERG
Tel. +43(0)2256/81184-306
Fax +43(0)2256/81807
sales@hirtenberger.at <mailto:sales@hirtenberger.at>

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Sean McPherson [mailto:HIDDEN]
Gesendet: Freitag, 11. Februar 2005 14:59
An: sales@hirtenberger.at; office@hirtenberger.at
Betreff: L7A1 9MM Ammunition Safety Question


Hello!

I'm trying to determine if ammunition marked L7A1 9MM is safe for use in
specific handguns (most definitively, the Glock 17). Glock says any
ammunition with the 'cross within a circle' NATO headstamp is safe for
use in this weapon; however, I've seen the following report online, and
wanted to verify the accuracy of the data contain therein (included
below). Is there any way to find out the chamber pressures created by
this ammo, as opposed to the Hirtenberger +P+ handgun loads? If the
report is valid, is the warning only applicable to rounds manufactured
during the specific time period listed (1990-1992)? If so, what is the
best way to determine when a box of L7A1 was manufactured? This is a
safety concern, as I've seen this ammunition in use in handguns, and
want to make sure that I am correct if I tell these shooters it is NOT
recommended for use in handguns by the manufacturer.

Thanks for any help,

Sean McPherson

***


Department of the Treasury
ATF Office of Public Information

For Immediate Release FY-97-6
Contact: Vickie Saunders Date: November 7, 1996

HAZARDOUS AMMUNITION

Washington--The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) has been
advised by Hirtenberger AG, Hirtenberg, Austria, that certain 9Xl9 mm
caliber ammunition produced by Hirtenberger is unsafe for use in any
handgun.

The ammunition, designated L7A1 and produced ln the years 1990 through
1992, was produced for the British Ministry of Defense specifically for
use in submachineguns under adverse conditions. The ammunition was loaded
to produce pressures far in excess of that intended for use in handguns.

The manufacturer advises that up to 12 million rounds of this ammunition
has recently been sold on the world surplus market. The ammunition can be
identified by the following head stamp located on the bottom of the
cartridge case

12 O'clock position: HP
3 O'clock position: 90, 91, or 92
6 O'clock position: L7Al
9 O'clock position: the marking of a cross within
a circle

This ammunition should not be fired.

We are not aware of any of this ammunition being imported into the United
States. ATF will take action to prevent the commercial importation of this
ammunition.

For additional information, contact, Mary Jo Hughes, Chief, Firearms and
Explosives Imports, (202) 927-8320.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:30:23 PM EDT
If you buy quality ammo they aren't really needed, but I've bought +P+ and shot it a few times, just because I could.

For example, with 124 gr. Speer Gold Dot 9mm ammo, it's better to use the non-plus ammo with a pistol that has a barrel length of over 4 inches. For 4 or shorter, the plus P is reccomended to get the bullet up to optimal speed. If you use +P SGD in a pistol with a barrel length over 4 inches you could cause the bullet to over expand and not achieve enough penetration.

The Remington 115 +P+ round(I have a box and have fired it for fun) has lousy ballistics because it dissintigrates on impact. That little fact isn't apparent when you only look at a rounds speed/ft. lbs. and so on. You need to know what it will do in ballistic jelly. It has terrible penetration because that little round is just moving too fast and it comes apart on impact.

You can buy +P+ on the open market. At least I have several times from a few different stores(YMMV).

If you are posting this sentiment because you are concerned that you don't have access to good enough ammo, I wouldn't worry. Faster is not always better.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:36:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By crazyhorse705:

damn thats all +p+ 9mm can do i will take 9mm+P 115gr Gold Dot JHP at 115gr @ 1415fps / 511ft. lbs. from a G17.

www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_37&products_id=119



You can always push a lighter weight bullet faster.

And since the velocity is the major factor of muzzle energy,
a itty bitty featherweight bullet can have amazing muzzle energy specs.

Would you rather a fleck of dust hit a bad guy at the speed of light,
or a brick at the speed of your arm?

That doubletap ammo is wicked fast, but too light weight to be as good of a choice as others.

I think somone proved it has a tendency to break up too quickly,
and not give good penetration.


Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:45:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GiggleSmith:

Originally Posted By zipper:
Doesn't say anything about LEO only here

9mm +P+ Link

I've bought and used that ammo on several occasion.

I just wish there wasn't so many dud rounds.



Light primer strikes? I have found the ammo to be very reliable out of my semi-auto Uzi. Not a single FTF. Even in the Uzi it is very 'snappy'. If you shoot WWB then Hirt you really see the difference.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:46:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 5:49:00 PM EDT by pale_pony]

Originally Posted By shotar:
The LE agency indemnifies the manufacturer against suit as the injured officer would fall under workmens comp.



OMG!!! That's a good one!



No flame to you shotar, but I have personally seen 2 instances where "agencies" were asked to sign "hold harmless agreements" regarding use of LEO restricted equipment that resulted in injuries to officers. IN BOTH CASES the work comp carrier SUBROGATED the claims back against the equipment manufacturers (one of them was Ford Motor Co) and BOTH times the comp carriers won full awards.

Even a LEO agency cannot sign away another party's right (their insurance company's right( to reclaim damages.

Edited to add: That doesn't even count what the FOP attorneys did to the manufacturers as Third Party Tortfeasors. The officers also won personal awards although the comp insurers retain rights to first subrogation.

Again, no flame to you but if that is the excuse the manufacturer is using NOT to sell the equipment, they are lying through their teeth.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:52:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Reaper:

Originally Posted By crazyhorse705:

damn thats all +p+ 9mm can do i will take 9mm+P 115gr Gold Dot JHP at 115gr @ 1415fps / 511ft. lbs. from a G17.

www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_37&products_id=119



You can always push a lighter weight bullet faster.

And since the velocity is the major factor of muzzle energy,
a itty bitty featherweight bullet can have amazing muzzle energy specs.

Would you rather a fleck of dust hit a bad guy at the speed of light,
or a brick at the speed of your arm?

That doubletap ammo is wicked fast, but too light weight to be as good of a choice as others.

I think somone proved it has a tendency to break up too quickly,
and not give good penetration.





how is their 147 gr rnd better or should i look into the 124gr rnd. it would be for a glock 17.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:57:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By crazyhorse705:

Originally Posted By The_Reaper:

Originally Posted By crazyhorse705:

damn thats all +p+ 9mm can do i will take 9mm+P 115gr Gold Dot JHP at 115gr @ 1415fps / 511ft. lbs. from a G17.

www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_37&products_id=119



You can always push a lighter weight bullet faster.

And since the velocity is the major factor of muzzle energy,
a itty bitty featherweight bullet can have amazing muzzle energy specs.

Would you rather a fleck of dust hit a bad guy at the speed of light,
or a brick at the speed of your arm?

That doubletap ammo is wicked fast, but too light weight to be as good of a choice as others.

I think somone proved it has a tendency to break up too quickly,
and not give good penetration.





how is their 147 gr rnd better or should i look into the 124gr rnd. it would be for a glock 17.



For a G17, if you get Speer Gold Dot 124gr. ammo, don't get the +P at all. It is designed to have maximum performance at a specific velocity, and out of a barrel as long as the G17 there is a risk that it will over expand, and under penetrate.
I use SGD +P in my G19 but not my G17 for that reason. It's really excellent ammo and I trust my life with it.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:01:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:02:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 6:07:30 PM EDT by Delta_3_63]

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By Delta_3_63:
Because LEOs are the only folks professional enough to handle that much power wear out their guns.




That too.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:23:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 6:41:20 PM EDT by crazyhorse705]

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:

Originally Posted By crazyhorse705:

Originally Posted By The_Reaper:

Originally Posted By crazyhorse705:

damn thats all +p+ 9mm can do i will take 9mm+P 115gr Gold Dot JHP at 115gr @ 1415fps / 511ft. lbs. from a G17.

www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_37&products_id=119



You can always push a lighter weight bullet faster.

And since the velocity is the major factor of muzzle energy,
a itty bitty featherweight bullet can have amazing muzzle energy specs.

Would you rather a fleck of dust hit a bad guy at the speed of light,
or a brick at the speed of your arm?

That doubletap ammo is wicked fast, but too light weight to be as good of a choice as others.

I think somone proved it has a tendency to break up too quickly,
and not give good penetration.





how is their 147 gr rnd better or should i look into the 124gr rnd. it would be for a glock 17.



For a G17, if you get Speer Gold Dot 124gr. ammo, don't get the +P at all. It is designed to have maximum performance at a specific velocity, and out of a barrel as long as the G17 there is a risk that it will over expand, and under penetrate.
I use SGD +P in my G19 but not my G17 for that reason. It's really excellent ammo and I trust my life with it.



ty for the info so get standard Speer Gold Dot 124gr. ammo for the the 17 and for the 19 which i want to get soon as finances shake out use +p correct.i am getting my ccw some time this year comming up my town is getting worse as time goes by.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:15:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By crazyhorse705:

Originally Posted By The_Reaper:

Originally Posted By crazyhorse705:

damn thats all +p+ 9mm can do i will take 9mm+P 115gr Gold Dot JHP at 115gr @ 1415fps / 511ft. lbs. from a G17.

www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_37&products_id=119



You can always push a lighter weight bullet faster.

And since the velocity is the major factor of muzzle energy,
a itty bitty featherweight bullet can have amazing muzzle energy specs.

Would you rather a fleck of dust hit a bad guy at the speed of light,
or a brick at the speed of your arm?

That doubletap ammo is wicked fast, but too light weight to be as good of a choice as others.

I think somone proved it has a tendency to break up too quickly,
and not give good penetration.





how is their 147 gr rnd better or should i look into the 124gr rnd. it would be for a glock 17.



A lot of people have done a lot of tests.
So you can read everyone's opinions, or you can read about the tests. Or do both.
I researched a lot of reviews, a lot of tests, a lot of opinions.
Some tests done at a professional level, others at a back yard "wet phonebook" level.

While some people will state their preference for one type over another,
the concensus is that the two best rounds available for 9mm are the
147g Winchester Ranger RA9T and the 127g Winchester Ranger RA9TA +P+.

The deciding factor being whether you want to shoot hotter rounds in your gun.
(more wear and tear, shorter gun life, more risk of explosion from using hotter rounds)

I'm not stating that these are the best. But overall, on the average, they get higher marks
than any other bullet in a variety of tests.

A lot of people swear by the Speer Gold Dot bullets.
They are damn good bullets. And a lot of manufacturers load them.
But the last time I checked, they were usually favored second to the Winchester.

Personally, I prefer the RA9TA. It is 14% lighter in weight, but 26% faster.

More momentum, more energy, and it still holds together and gives good penetration.

Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:19:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:27:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By GiggleSmith:

Originally Posted By zipper:
Doesn't say anything about LEO only here

9mm +P+ Link

I've bought and used that ammo on several occasion.

I just wish there wasn't so many dud rounds.



Light primer strikes? I have found the ammo to be very reliable out of my semi-auto Uzi. Not a single FTF. Even in the Uzi it is very 'snappy'. If you shoot WWB then Hirt you really see the difference.

The primer is in so deep that I can't always get a good strike.

I tried the dud's in my MAC 11/9 set on Semi. All but a few dud's stayed dud's.

I love shooting +P+ Hirtenberger, but with all of the dud's I've been getting I may not shoot them very often any more.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 8:00:25 PM EDT
ty guys for the info i copied it so i can use it for future reference when i buy more ammo and guns.

the g26 is the baby 9mm isnt it
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 8:20:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Delta_3_63:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By Delta_3_63:
Because LEOs are the only folks professional enough to handle that much power wear out their guns.




That too.



I won't even use +P+ in my MP5s.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 7:24:14 AM EDT
A 9mm AR should be OK since it's a rifle retooled to fire a pistol round.
I wonder how well MPs/SMGs designed around standard 9mm loads fare?

Does anyone know which 'authorities' req'd the L7A1 and for which gun?
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 7:37:05 AM EDT
I asked this because the snippit I posted is on the CCI/Speer Gold Dot LE website.

Link Posted: 12/23/2005 7:48:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Delta_3_63:
A 9mm AR should be OK since it's a rifle retooled to fire a pistol round.
I wonder how well MPs/SMGs designed around standard 9mm loads fare?

Does anyone know which 'authorities' req'd the L7A1 and for which gun?



British MOD according to the_reaper's letter. Just go to the last post on page 1.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 8:06:33 AM EDT
In addition to the potential liabilty issues regarding +P+ ammo and civilians using it in handguns that can't handle the chamber pressures...

If the manufacturer is loading it for LEO use, marketing it for LEO use and selling it for LEO use, t there's no Federal excise tax being paid on it (%11), which would be one more reason they require that... " Purchasers must be able to affirm that +P+ ammunition is for law enforcement/government use only".

Anytime you see boxes of ammo labled "For Law Enforcement Use Only", it simply means the tax hasn't been paid on it and is unauthorized for civilan sales.
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