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Posted: 12/22/2005 5:44:01 AM EDT
I've had guys tell me to just keep my gun stock, free from all the extra crap like lights, lasers, scopes, etc. But I cannot understand why anyone would not want to use a laser on a handgun/rifle, especially on a weapon for home defense where the distance is not going to be that far. If the bullet is going to go where the laser mark is, then even under pressue you're going to hit the target. Am I missing something here, is it not that easy or is there really a reason to not opt for a laser on your home defense weapon?
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:45:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 5:47:27 AM EDT by RoyDamnMercer]
Lasers fail and are a poor substitute for practice, practice, practice. That said, get a good light....always good to KNOW what your gonna shoot....especially when things go bump in the night.

roy d
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:47:19 AM EDT
A laser makes you shift your focus from the front sight to the target.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:48:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photokirk:
A laser makes you shift your focus from the front sight to the target.



That's not bad. You can shoot perfectly well while focused on the target.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:49:02 AM EDT
Lasers are not a cure for crappy skills. Practice.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:50:42 AM EDT
Why project something down range that can be seen by everybody and their neighbors when you can get the same effect with a reddot sight?


Unless you like projecting red dot onto people's crotches like Bart Simpson, careful you don't want to die of crotch dot, then a laser has limited practicality.


Get the red dot sight with a dot of around 3MOA and call it good.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:51:22 AM EDT
Because if you shine a laser into a bad guys eyes he will sue you for damages to his vision and own your house and stuff without having to steal it. I live on the dangerous side and have one in my Glock. Hopefully I won't hurt my eyesight or have a kaboom that blows my hand off.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:53:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 5:54:48 AM EDT by EPOCH96]
Personally, I find my laser on my M6 actually slows me down. I spend a split second longer trying to get the dot exactly where I want it. Next time I will just buy the M3 version with the LED light.

Just my 2 cents

EPOCH

ETA: almost forgot. This M6 is the most expensive cat toy I have every bought

Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:56:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EPOCH96:
Personally, I find my laser on my M6 actually slows me down. I spend a split second longer trying to get the dot exactly where I want it. Next time I will just buy the M3 version with the LED light.

Just my 2 cents

EPOCH

ETA: almost forgot. This M6 is the most expensive cat toy I have every bought

img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/Jbays/KimberTLERLII676x507.jpg




haha I figured I wasn't the only one!
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:01:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 6:02:23 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]
Mr. Murphy is an SOB



Get that laser lined up on BG's chest........and ..........POOF, batteries go dead, followed by owner



No substitute for proper training. They do they their uses and purposes though
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:01:59 AM EDT
My dog loves it too.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:02:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:02:48 AM EDT
Why not?

Interesting toy to show where your muzzle is going when you are playing, but I don't see one as being necessary or particularly useful in self-defense. For example, when do I switch the thing on? If I do it before I have a bead on the guy, it may just give away my position. If I do it after I have a bead on the guy, then it was pretty much useless because the next switch I am going to be working is the trigger.

Batteries are expensive and one my friend had went through a set every fifteen minutes of use or so. He had one of those slick, inside the guide rod lasers. Of course, he could have gotten one of them bulkier things that slings down under the gun. But those look like a pain in the ass to carry around on a pistol all the time for the rare occasions when it might be useful.

Alignment of the thing is another issue. From what I have seen of them, it isn't guaranteed that your bullet is going to hit where the laser dot is the next time you pick up your gun -- especially if it has had some rough handling. I would rather rely on the sights that I know stay in one place.

Shooting with one is cool for seeing what bad habits you have, like flinching, but good old regular aiming puts more lead in a small area in a short time than using the laser.

I have been most impressed with the lasers in the grips but then you are restricted to a certain range of guns.

But then I have mucho decades on this earth without the need yet to pull a firearm on anyone at all. If the pattern holds, I will be an old, old, man before I have any realistic use for a laser for defense purposes. For other purposes, I can do what I need to do perfectly well without it.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:06:34 AM EDT
Lasers are GREAT for home defense.

If you apply the "I-Don't-Want-One-Because-it-Might-Fail" logic to your firearm where does that leave you?
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:07:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:
Lasers are GREAT for home defense.

If you apply the "I-Don't-Want-One-Because-it-Might-Fail" logic to your firearm where does that leave you?




My Kimber isn't battery powered.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:07:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EPOCH96:
Personally, I find my laser on my M6 actually slows me down. I spend a split second longer trying to get the dot exactly where I want it. Next time I will just buy the M3 version with the LED light.

Just my 2 cents

EPOCH




A few years ago at a seminar by Glock the instructor gave 3 reasons he did not recommend installing a laser.

1. They didn't like anyone mucking around with their "perfect" pistol.
2. The laser shows where you are also.
3. Their studies had shown that when using a laser, most people would not take the "good enough" shot, but would take the extra time to put the dot exactly where they wanted it. They shot slower but not significantly better.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:08:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 6:08:55 AM EDT by Alien]
Get a red dot sight. It's like putting a laser dot on a target, except nobody else can see the dot, you can ALWAYS see the dot, and you know where the dot is. You don't have to look for it. Put the dot on the target and boom. Not only are they functionally much better than a laser, but an Aimpoint will last around 50,000 hours on the 7th brighest setting! Beat that with a laser. The only downside is that they cost a LOT more.

So in summary, get a red dot. Same thing as a laser, except it's about 10x better.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:08:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:
Lasers are GREAT for home defense.

If you apply the "I-Don't-Want-One-Because-it-Might-Fail" logic to your firearm where does that leave you?



With a 1911?
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:14:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wdsman:

3. Their studies had shown that when using a laser, most people would not take the "good enough" shot, but would take the extra time to put the dot exactly where they wanted it. They shot slower but not significantly better.



I recommend a simple test. At about twenty feet, put five shots in rapid succession into the head on a man-sized target. Do it with the laser, and then with just the regular sights. I would bet that most people would have smaller groups and faster times with regular sights.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:15:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 6:17:14 AM EDT by HardShell]

Originally Posted By RoyDamnMercer:
Lasers fail and are a poor substitute for practice, practice, practice...




Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
Lasers are not a cure for crappy skills. Practice.




Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
... No substitute for proper training...



I see this everytime the subject of lasers comes up. Please show me where, even once, I or anyone here who uses firearm-mounted lasers or advocates their use have suggested, in any way, that they negate the need for traditional sighting, training, and practice...

One more tool in the toolbox - no more, no less. The best tool in those rare (but not unheard of) situations where circumstances render a traditional stance & sight picture impossible.

YMMV, of course.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:17:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 6:19:41 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]

Originally Posted By HardShell:

I see this everytime the subject of lasers comes up. Please show me where, even once, I or anyone here who uses firearm-mounted lasers or advocates their use have suggested, in any way, that they negate the need for traditional sighting, training, and practice...




This tends to *imply* that:



If the bullet is going to go where the laser mark is,




since it essentially *implies* that all you do is point the laser mark, something we've all done with laser pointers, and the bullet will strike in that location.

The bullet will NOT home in on a laser designator - sorry, out technology isn't there yet. The bullet will go where your grip, stance, trigger control and a bunch of other factors will send it.



Like you said, one more tool in the toolbox - no more, no less
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:21:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 6:22:53 AM EDT by Rodent]

Originally Posted By wolfman97:
I recommend a simple test. At about twenty feet, put five shots in rapid succession into the head on a man-sized target. Do it with the laser, and then with just the regular sights. I would bet that most people would have smaller groups and faster times with regular sights.



I"m faster with a laser.

Know why lasers are illegal for hunting in so many states? Because they work too well.


ETA: A supressed pistol with a laser is about as much fun as you can have.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:23:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 6:37:45 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By EPOCH96:
Personally, I find my laser on my M6 actually slows me down. I spend a split second longer trying to get the dot exactly where I want it.



Bingo!

Several LEOs I have discussed this with all shed some light on why LEOs seldom use lasers.

1. you spend more time looking for the laser dot than actually aiming at the perp - all this when you have split seconds to act.

2. In a case with multiple officers, whose dot is it that you see?

3. When light smoke or particulate matter is in the air where a Tac ight would still be useful, the laser entire beam is visible, which both compromises the location of the officers, and causes considerable confusion. When several lasers are being used - think "laser light show".


The verdict was that lasers are a neato toy, but have little real value in a tactical situation.
There will always be execptions, of course, but better to spend your money on a good tac light.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:27:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 6:29:28 AM EDT by A-nus]
The guy who told you to keep your gun stock and foget the gagets was right, with the exception of a light, learn your stock weapon. the gatgets are for hollywood.

when i started in this hobby i wanted every wizbang gadget i could hang off a gun, over the years i have stripped them down to basics and wish i had the money i wasted on gagets to put in to more guns.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:27:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By EPOCH96:
Personally, I find my laser on my M6 actually slows me down. I spend a split second longer trying to get the dot exactly where I want it.



Bingo!

Several LEOs I have discussed this with all shed some light on why LEOs seldom use lasers.

1. you spend more time looking for the laser dor than actually aiming at the perp - all this when you have split seconds to act.

2. In a case with multiple officers, whose dot is it that you see?

3. When light smoke or particulate matter is in the air where a Tac ight would still be useful, the entire beam is visible, which both compromises the location of the officers, and causes considerable confusion
when several lasers are being used - thionk "laser light show".


The verdict was that lasers are a neato toy, but have little real value in a tactical situation.
There will always be execptions, of course, but better to spend your money on a good tac light.



None of those are applicable to home defense, which is what this thread is about.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:28:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 6:29:48 AM EDT by HardShell]

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
... The bullet will NOT home in on a laser designator - sorry, out technology isn't there yet. The bullet will go where your grip, stance, trigger control and a bunch of other factors will send it...



Agreed, but no more or less so than with a red-dot sight. A quality laser, sighted-in and practiced with (in tandem with more traditional skills, not in place of them) by a user with an understanding of range and bullet drop, can be every bit as useful as a red-dot - more so in some situations, less so in others. Everyone knows they aren't the magical solution Hollyweird makes them out to be and that they, like everything else, have limitations.

My main point was that the laser-haters here need to get a new mantra - the "it's no substitute for practice" is getting old and I would hope that nobody here needs to be told that. Maybe I'm overly optimistic...

Sorry if I came off sounding harsh.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:30:26 AM EDT

Know why lasers are illegal for hunting in so many states? Because they work too well.



Only blind people are allowed to use a laser on their hunting gun in Michigan.

Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:32:15 AM EDT
Wow, I am amazed...lasers fail so get a light/red dot...I believe these too run on batteries. They can fail just as easily.

This is a truly enlightening thread, no pun intended.

Just, wow.


ByteTheBullet (-:
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:33:32 AM EDT
Turn on your laser - use the laser as an aiming point - shoot your gun .....

now good luck getting that laser back on target for a follow up shot!

Lasers are extremely limited in their effectiveness on a handgun. The laser shifts your focus and when you're relying on that dot....follow up shots are no where NEAR the target like they would be using the gun's sights.

When you shoot the gun with the laser, the dot goes all over the place as the gun cycles. That, and in a situation where you'd actually have to use that gun to defend your life or the lives of others....dubbing around with a laser isn't on the priority list.

Pull aim shoot shoot shoot - done.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:34:19 AM EDT
After watching the miserable performance of a guy trying to use a laser to shoot fast, and comparing others performance with iron sights, I realized how useless they would be for me. If the pistol ISN'T on target, you have to look away from both the threat AND your sights to find it. If the pistol IS on target, pull the darn trigger.

At best a laser is only a way to confirm that your gun is pointed in the correct direction, I prefer the speed of iron sights...though a compact dot sight might be sweet to try.

If they really WERE so wonderful and uber hot, you'd see competition shooters using them, you NEVER see a top shooter using a laser sight, NEVER. Dot sights? yes, anytime they can use them, they will. But lasers? NEVER

Also, if you like the idea of using it for intimidation of an intruder. If it's painted on his chest, is he really gonna look down and see it, or is he gonna keep on hacking away with that knife?

Use it if you like, I see no use for them...though I may have to try my laser pointer on the cat tonight...may have to revise my assessment
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:34:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 6:36:08 AM EDT by mjohn3006]
I used to use my M6 light/laser. But when practising at the range I found myself looking at the target and not holding the gun properly. So I was talking more time to look at the laser dot rather than just aim the weapon, and then I was not as accurate because I was not holding the gun right.

I have switched my home defence to my Sig P220 with night sights. Green dots make me aim and are very easy to see. Target identification is done with a surefire.


I do however find it very useful to use laseres when bringing someone shooting for the first time.

I have a laser for my P22, and I have the M6 for my Beretta 92 Vertec.
It makes a new shooter:
1. More excited for the "cool" factor of seeing the red laser dot just like in the movies
2. More likley to actually hit the paper, as I found out with one girl who shot the fricking ceiling once before I stopped her. She was just not understanding how sights work. Even when explained. Then I put on a laser, and she saw how the sights lined up on the red dot. Then she shot fine.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:38:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 6:43:11 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By Rodent:

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By EPOCH96:
Personally, I find my laser on my M6 actually slows me down. I spend a split second longer trying to get the dot exactly where I want it.



Bingo!

Several LEOs I have discussed this with all shed some light on why LEOs seldom use lasers.

1. you spend more time looking for the laser dor than actually aiming at the perp - all this when you have split seconds to act.

2. In a case with multiple officers, whose dot is it that you see?

3. When light smoke or particulate matter is in the air where a Tac ight would still be useful, the entire beam is visible, which both compromises the location of the officers, and causes considerable confusion
when several lasers are being used - thionk "laser light show".


The verdict was that lasers are a neato toy, but have little real value in a tactical situation.
There will always be execptions, of course, but better to spend your money on a good tac light.



None of those are applicable to home defense, which is what this thread is about.



Yes, 1 and 3 most certainly are. Ever discharged a weapon indoors in a dark room, then turned on a light or laser? You will find that modern propellants still make a lot of smoke. Go practice in an unlit kill house range with a tac light and laser - it will be come very evident to you very quickly what the shortcomings of the laser are.

That's why the military uses lasers only for target painting for airstrikes or artillery interdiction.
Lasers are useless for CQB. NODS and NV compatible red dots are the method of choice in an unlit environment.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:46:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 6:48:22 AM EDT by Alien]

Originally Posted By ByteTheBullet:
Wow, I am amazed...lasers fail so get a light/red dot...I believe these too run on batteries. They can fail just as easily.

This is a truly enlightening thread, no pun intended.

Just, wow.


ByteTheBullet (-:



An Aimpoint and EOTech both last thousands of hours (and the Aimpoint lasts tens of thousands of hours). I have an extra battery for my Aimpoint inside my LaRue mount as backup (though it would take a minute or two to switch and cannot be changed out in the heat of the moment). You'd have to leave your sight on for months or YEARS or use it quite a bit over a year or two to burn up all the juice in your battery(s). An Aimpoint can stay turned on at setting 7 for over 5 years.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:46:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 6:48:32 AM EDT by wolfman97]

Originally Posted By Rodent:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:
I recommend a simple test. At about twenty feet, put five shots in rapid succession into the head on a man-sized target. Do it with the laser, and then with just the regular sights. I would bet that most people would have smaller groups and faster times with regular sights.



I"m faster with a laser.



How much money did you spend getting to that point.


Know why lasers are illegal for hunting in so many states? Because they work too well.


Oh, right. Hunting stats in California show that only ten percent of people with deer tags ever fill them. It ain't because it is too hard to hit something with iron sights or a scope. A lot of states only allow hunting during daylight hours, anyway, which makes lasers useless except at short range in the shade (where you could brain the deer with a rock, anyway).

Next you will be trying to tell me that the gun laws are rational.



ETA: A supressed pistol with a laser is about as much fun as you can have.



Unfortunately, suppressed pistols are a no-no where I live.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:55:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:
... Unfortunately, suppressed pistols are a no-no where I live.



Aren't lasers on handguns as well, or did that not pass?
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:56:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:58:23 AM EDT
As the starter of this thread, let me say I did not mean to imply that lasers in any way, shape or from take the place of practice. Hell I have too much fun shooting/practicing to allow that to happen anyways

That said, a lot of the arguments here against using them make sense to me and that was my objective. So thank you

Sounds like a good light and practice is what gives you a better edge against a would be intruder.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:01:16 AM EDT
The same reason old hats didn't want to change out their wheelguns for semi-automatics. They are a great tool to have available (if you buy a quality one) IMO.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:03:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HardShell:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:
... Unfortunately, suppressed pistols are a no-no where I live.



Aren't lasers on handguns as well, or did that not pass?



No law about that in California that I have ever heard of. They sell them in stores quite freely.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:03:45 AM EDT
My M3 light gets me where I need to go.

I see no use for a laser...

Unless you're putting one on a shark's head.

That'd be cool.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:08:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:
No law about that in California that I have ever heard of. They sell them in stores quite freely.



Good to know. I remember an effort to ban them several years ago (pretty sure it was CA) and - sadly - y'all have to endure a lot of silly legislation such as that. Glad that one got shot down.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:10:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HardShell:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:
No law about that in California that I have ever heard of. They sell them in stores quite freely.



Good to know. I remember an effort to ban them several years ago (pretty sure it was CA) and - sadly - y'all have to endure a lot of silly legislation such as that. Glad that one got shot down.



Contrary to what you may have heard we get lucky and good sense prevails every now and then. Not often enough, but sometimes.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:18:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 7:21:18 AM EDT by giacutter]
If you are looking for a home security type option and you have lots and lots of money you could go with the uber-geek night vision goggles/ infrared laser combination. Very tack-tickle.

www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=3&f=20

No one but you or someone else with NVDs see your laser-point, even in total darkness.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:20:58 AM EDT
I am red/green color blind and have a really hard time seeing lasers. On the laser equipped pistols I have shot, I found myself going back to the pistol sights after the first shot because it was taking me too much time to find the laser dot again. I have only shot two, and they were the low powered kind built into the pistol grip, so I admit that I am probably not able to make a good evaluation. I will just stay with the plain old pistol sights that I am accustomed to untill I find something better.

For some reason I don't have the same problem picking up the dot with the Aimpoint on my AR, even at low settings. Maybe it's because it's closer to my eye, more intense or more stable in relation to my eye, I really don't know. I have found that with my AR, the combination of a surefire light and Aimpoint works well for me. YMMV
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:23:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Alien:

Originally Posted By ByteTheBullet:
Wow, I am amazed...lasers fail so get a light/red dot...I believe these too run on batteries. They can fail just as easily.

This is a truly enlightening thread, no pun intended.

Just, wow.


ByteTheBullet (-:



An Aimpoint and EOTech both last thousands of hours (and the Aimpoint lasts tens of thousands of hours). I have an extra battery for my Aimpoint inside my LaRue mount as backup (though it would take a minute or two to switch and cannot be changed out in the heat of the moment). You'd have to leave your sight on for months or YEARS or use it quite a bit over a year or two to burn up all the juice in your battery(s). An Aimpoint can stay turned on at setting 7 for over 5 years.



Yes, I truly understand, BUT at that critical point in time, like a laser as noted by alot of others, it could go dead. It is a moot point to say lasers die and red dots/lights don't.

DisUnIrregadless, my point was that this thread is just amazing, it is looking like some of our favorite people that we bash on a daily basis. Wow.


ByteTheBullet (-:
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:25:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 7:26:35 AM EDT by TheAmaazingCarl]
as a "communication device" a laser is pretty damn hard to beat, it's the next best thing to a muzzle punch, and you don't have to get nearly so close


there are better aiming options though, unless your laser is IR
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:28:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ByteTheBullet:

Originally Posted By Alien:

Originally Posted By ByteTheBullet:
Wow, I am amazed...lasers fail so get a light/red dot...I believe these too run on batteries. They can fail just as easily.

This is a truly enlightening thread, no pun intended.

Just, wow.


ByteTheBullet (-:



An Aimpoint and EOTech both last thousands of hours (and the Aimpoint lasts tens of thousands of hours). I have an extra battery for my Aimpoint inside my LaRue mount as backup (though it would take a minute or two to switch and cannot be changed out in the heat of the moment). You'd have to leave your sight on for months or YEARS or use it quite a bit over a year or two to burn up all the juice in your battery(s). An Aimpoint can stay turned on at setting 7 for over 5 years.



Yes, I truly understand, BUT at that critical point in time, like a laser as noted by alot of others, it could go dead. It is a moot point to say lasers die and red dots/lights don't.

DisUnIrregadless, my point was that this thread is just amazing, it is looking like some of our favorite people that we bash on a daily basis. Wow.


ByteTheBullet (-:



I understand your point I was just wanting to throw that out there. Even as rugged and long lasting as an Aimpoint or EOTech can be, they can still fail. But that's what flip up BUIS are for! I have an ARMS #40.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:28:24 AM EDT
Most individuals, regardless of language spoken, understand two things as sure signs they're about to be shot:
1. Laser dot on the chest [borg]
2. 12ga being racked

Kharn
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:31:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:32:11 AM EDT
Quite possibly, they're only thing more overrated than the 40S&W cartridge.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:45:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dolomite:
Quite possibly, they're only thing more overrated than the 40S&W cartridge.



lol...

how true!
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