Lasers...why would anyone not want to use them? - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Lasers...why would anyone not want to use them? (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 12/22/2005 7:54:28 AM EDT

[#1]

All I know about lasers is that you shouldn't look into the beam with your remaining eye...

But we mostly use lasers to weld stuff.....

Posted: 12/22/2005 7:55:28 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Lasers are GREAT for home defense.

If you apply the "I-Don't-Want-One-Because-it-Might-Fail" logic to your firearm where does that leave you?

My Kimber isn't battery powered.

And its not %100 reliable either, nothing mechanical is.

Posted: 12/22/2005 7:59:59 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Most individuals, regardless of language spoken, understand two things as sure signs they're about to be shot:
1. Laser dot on the chest [borg]
2. 12ga being racked

Kharn

I agree. As a psychological weapon it can lend an awesome advantage. Imagine a perp is in your house and you confront him. He notices that his chest is glowing red from the laser beam from your gun. He damn well knows he is going to get shot. Then you think you hear something or someone else behind him. instead of focusing so intently on iron sights you can use your peripheral vision to acknowledge the fact that you still have a good target on the first bad guy while scanning for another. I don't think it is worthless as many have stated. Any tool can help you as long as you use it in the right way.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:01:26 AM EDT

[#4]

Well, Granny in that commercial during the shooting shows sure can shoot a tight pattern. If it works for her, why not!

ByteTheBullet (-:

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:02:53 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
as a "communication device" a laser is pretty damn hard to beat, it's the next best thing to a muzzle punch, and you don't have to get nearly so close

there are better aiming options though, unless your laser is IR

If I ever have to put a gun sight on someone I will be communicating with more than a laser. I will go with the best thing, not the second best.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:03:37 AM EDT

[#6]

Can any one name one U.S. military unit or SWAT team or PD that uses lasers for aiming on their service weapons?

And TV shows/movies don't count, and no PEQs.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:03:52 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
I recommend a simple test. At about twenty feet, put five shots in rapid succession into the head on a man-sized target. Do it with the laser, and then with just the regular sights. I would bet that most people would have smaller groups and faster times with regular sights.

Sure as soon as you show me a human skull that can take ONE 158 grain slug at 1400 feet per second.

Please do not shave the iron sights off of your weapons ...

... as proper tactics dictate that they might be of need ... like if you run into the first human skull able to take one .357 round upside the head. So lets just say that I'm holding a guy at gun point when he makes the last mistake that he'll ever make and I put 3.5 pounds of pressure onto my trigger and for whatever unknown reason that first slug that penetrates his skull doesn't kill him ... I can make the transistion to iron sights much faster than the guy can continue on with another motion. By focusing on the target and not the firearm I am better able to maintain awareness of the guy who is trying to kill me. If the dot dancing between his eyes is entertaining to him so much the better.

Personally I like the flexibility that the laser sight gives me but wouldn't be foolish enough to actually remove the iron sights or to not practice enough with them that I can outshoot 99 out of 100 fools with iron sights. Having a laser allows for better weapon retention stances while still maintaining situational awareness. You don't wander around the building with it on shouting "shoot me" no more than you would with a flashlight or warning stobe ... do you think this is Hollywood or something.

And BTW there are only two caliber's worthy enough for a pistol: .357 and .45. That's all.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:11:26 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I recommend a simple test. At about twenty feet, put five shots in rapid succession into the head on a man-sized target. Do it with the laser, and then with just the regular sights. I would bet that most people would have smaller groups and faster times with regular sights.

Sure as soon as you show me a human skull that can take ONE 158 grain slug at 1400 feet per second.

OK, so shoot COM if that pleases you. For most people iron sights will put more lead into a small area faster. I just used the head to indicate a smaller area than the body.

Please do not shave the iron sights off of your weapons ...

... as proper tactics dictate that they might be of need ... like if you run into the first human skull able to take one .357 round upside the head. So lets just say that I'm holding a guy at gun point when he makes the last mistake that he'll ever make and I put 3.5 pounds of pressure onto my trigger and for whatever unknown reason that first slug that penetrates his skull doesn't kill him ... I can make the transistion to iron sights much faster than the guy can continue on with another motion. By focusing on the target and not the firearm I am better able to maintain awareness of the guy who is trying to kill me. If the dot dancing between his eyes is entertaining to him so much the better.

If the laser is that good, why isn't he down?

Personally I like the flexibility that the laser sight gives me but wouldn't be foolish enough to actually remove the iron sights or to not practice enough with them that I can outshoot 99 out of 100 fools with iron sights.

Then you should move up to some competition besides fools.

Having a laser allows for better weapon retention stances while still maintaining situational awareness. You don't wander around the building with it on shouting "shoot me" no more than you would with a flashlight or warning stobe ... do you think this is Hollywood or something.

So when do you turn it on? After you have already drawn a bead?

And BTW there are only two caliber's worthy enough for a pistol: .357 and .45. That's all.

I have heard that there are lots of calibers that make a big owie.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:16:42 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
I challenge anyone to find me ONE U.S. military unit or SWAT team or PD that uses lasers for aiming on their service weapons.

And TV shows/movies don't count.

(dang can't link images from the US Army's ranger site here!)

(you've forgotten all the AN/PEQ-2 IR lasers that the Army and Marines are using big time right?)

Doesn't the United States Special Operations Command use the Mark 23 Mod 0 SOCOM with the AN/PEQ-6 as a LAM (Laser Aim Module)?

And find us one US military or SWAT unit that has one member on it! There really isn't an Army of one.

If you follow the tactics of either the US Military or SWAT units without the normal five to twenty five guys these TEAMS deploy with your completely foolish. You can not use the tactics of a team of guys to one home owner in the middle of the night. Where does weapon retention come into play when you have five armed guys with you? When the first bad guy grabs the weapon the other four kill him with their MP-5's or M-4's. Done, start writing up reports. When you're alone what do you do? Might be as different as night and day and might just require different tactics.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:19:41 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I challenge anyone to find me ONE U.S. military unit or SWAT team or PD that uses lasers for aiming on their service weapons.

And TV shows/movies don't count.

nightoperations.com/images/an-peq-2a.gif

peosoldier.army.mil/photos/AN-PEQ-2A_low.jpg

(you've forgotten all the AN/PEQ-2 IR lasers that the Army and Marines are using big time right?)

And find us one US military or SWAT unit that has one member on it! There really isn't an Army of one.

If you follow the tactics of either the US Military or SWAT units without the normal five to twenty five guys these TEAMS deploy with your completely foolish. You can not use the tactics of a team of guys to one home owner in the middle of the night. Where does weapon retention come into play when you have five armed guys with you? When the first bad guy grabs the weapon the other four kill him with their MP-5's or M-4's. Done, start writing up reports. When you're alone what do you do? Might be as different as night and day and might just require different tactics.

That's why I have a double row of claymores around my house.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:21:25 AM EDT

[#11]

...Lasers fail and are a poor substitute for practice, practice, practice. That said, get a good light....always good to KNOW what your gonna shoot....especially when things go bump in the night....

-Yea, but, , , ummm, , , , -lights can fail too, right? Is the failure rate for lasers appreciably higher than it is for lights?
,,,,
Maybe you should just eat a lot of carrots, and not need either.
-----------
- I think the ultimate rig would be a dual-light: one bulb would be a regular flashlight, moderate brightness--and then the other would be a camera flash. You'd have separate switches, and then of course you'd know to blink when you hit the flash. The BG however.....
.....
Come to think of it, screw the gun.
I'll take my chances with a hot-shoe camera flash and a tire iron.

~

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:21:44 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Can any one name one U.S. military unit or SWAT team or PD that uses lasers for aiming on their service weapons?

And TV shows/movies don't count, and no PEQs.

Almost every activeArmy unit I know of has crimson trace lasergrips on the M9s, if you wantt o see 44 of them with the lasergrips Ill take my camera to work today and show you that we do use them.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:24:26 AM EDT

[#13]

Dang he changed his post to take out the PEQ's

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:26:21 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Dang he changed his post to take out the PEQ's

Next he will say no crimson trace.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:28:31 AM EDT

[#15]

WRT lasers, there is ONE thing to note when comparing to other sighting aids (optical scope, red-dot, reflex, etc)...

For use on a PISTOL, the laser is alot smaller & lighter (esp the CTC or LaserMax style devices)...

in terms of mounting & location, a laser gives you the 'dot' while retaining an easily carryable profile (a/o a side or top mounted conventional optic)...

For rifles, this obviously doesn't apply....

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:29:09 AM EDT

[#16]

My comments apply to lasers for handguns only.

For the longest time I thought lasers were a gimmick and I scoffed at anyone who advocated their use. After taking courses from Pat Rogers, Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn, I've since changed my stance. In particular, I've done night shoots with LAV and Ken where lasers (Crimson Trace to be exact) were used.

For night time/limited visibility engagements with a handgun, lasers rock! Ken had multiple users aim their laser equipped handguns at the same target and everyone knew which dot/laser was his, so that argument is not valid. I'm not saying a laser replaces a light. But for actual target engagement in the dark, a laser is the way to go.

For training. Shooting while moving is a critical skill for fighting. Using a laser equipped handgun can show you how much you're bouncing and help you smooth out your movement.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:34:00 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Lasers fail and are a poor substitute for practice, practice, practice...

Quoted:
Lasers are not a cure for crappy skills. Practice.

Quoted:
... No substitute for proper training...

I see this everytime the subject of lasers comes up. Please show me where, even once, I or anyone here who uses firearm-mounted lasers or advocates their use have suggested, in any way, that they negate the need for traditional sighting, training, and practice...

One more tool in the toolbox - no more, no less. The best tool in those rare (but not unheard of) situations where circumstances render a traditional stance & sight picture impossible.

YMMV, of course.

No one ADVOCATES it, but that's where you end up. We actually had a previous chief propose general issue of lasers because it would allow her to CUT the ammo budget for training.

Go to a range sometime. Watch someone shoot a laser with recoil and follow thru. You'd be amazed where that little dot goes.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:41:51 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
A laser makes you shift your focus from the front sight to the target.

someone has spent too much time at front sight... it's a good method on a stationary target, but I'm sorry, focusing on the front sight on a moving target is just silly... If your gun is mounted properly and you have the right sight picture focus SHOULD be maintained on the TARGET!

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:44:42 AM EDT

[#19]

I have a combination visible/IR laser on my M-4, the visible laser is great at convinving locals they need to back off... the attitude change when the dot is on them is quite sudden.

The IR gets the most use... there is nothing better for nighttime use with NVGs.

And every M-9 in my company has a set of Crimson Trace lasergrips...issued.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:50:45 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Several LEOs I have discussed this with all shed some light on why LEOs seldom use lasers.

1. you spend more time looking for the laser dor than actually aiming at the perp - all this when you have split seconds to act.

2. In a case with multiple officers, whose dot is it that you see?

3. When light smoke or particulate matter is in the air where a Tac ight would still be useful, the entire beam is visible, which both compromises the location of the officers, and causes considerable confusion
when several lasers are being used - thionk "laser light show".

The verdict was that lasers are a neato toy, but have little real value in a tactical situation.
There will always be execptions, of course, but better to spend your money on a good tac light.

None of those are applicable to home defense, which is what this thread is about.

Yes, 1 and 3 most certainly are. Ever discharged a weapon indoors in a dark room, then turned on a light or laser? You will find that modern propellants still make a lot of smoke. Go practice in an unlit kill house range with a tac light and laser - it will be come very evident to you very quickly what the shortcomings of the laser are.

That's why the military uses lasers only for target painting for airstrikes or artillery interdiction.
Lasers are useless for CQB. NODS and NV compatible red dots are the method of choice in an unlit environment.

Okay, I'll partially concede: IF multiple highly-trained, well-armed, suicidaly-motivated ex-SEAL-type crackheads are burglarizing your home - which coincidentally is filled with smoke - and IF there are already several armed officers in there with you who already have their lasers on, THEN maybe a laser isn't a good idea.

For the more run-of-the-mill burglaries we have around here, lasers are terrific.

If you're having a hard time picking up the dot, you're not looking over your sights and you need a little more training.

The military uses lasers for all kinds of things besides designating targets. Ask me how I know.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:51:57 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
WRT lasers, there is ONE thing to note when comparing to other sighting aids (optical scope, red-dot, reflex, etc)...

For use on a PISTOL, the laser is alot smaller & lighter (esp the CTC or LaserMax style devices)...

in terms of mounting & location, a laser gives you the 'dot' while retaining an easily carryable profile (a/o a side or top mounted conventional optic)...

For rifles, this obviously doesn't apply....

Hey look, another aviation guy. Where ya at, Im a prop&rotor guy in 25th ID.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:56:42 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Dang he changed his post to take out the PEQ's

Next he will say no crimson trace.

PEQ is used primarily fo targeting, not aiming of individual weapons. But I knew someone would say "it's a laser".

And I'm not talking about non-approved junk soldiers/LE put on their weapons. What is the NSN for crimson trace? There isn't one AFAIK.

I could be wrong on usage. I'll admit that, but most individuals I have spoken to who use their weapons on a regular basis in the course of their jobs, whether it it be LE or military, all share the opinion that lasers are good for target illumination and pointing on a white board, and that's about it.

Posted: 12/22/2005 9:01:18 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Quoted:
... The bullet will NOT home in on a laser designator - sorry, out technology isn't there yet. The bullet will go where your grip, stance, trigger control and a bunch of other factors will send it...

Agreed, but no more or less so than with a red-dot sight. A quality laser, sighted-in and practiced with (in tandem with more traditional skills, not in place of them) by a user with an understanding of range and bullet drop, can be every bit as useful as a red-dot - more so in some situations, less so in others. Everyone knows they aren't the magical solution Hollyweird makes them out to be and that they, like everything else, have limitations.

My main point was that the laser-haters here need to get a new mantra - the "it's no substitute for practice" is getting old and I would hope that nobody here needs to be told that. Maybe I'm overly optimistic...

Sorry if I came off sounding harsh.

You & I are agreeing here

Posted: 12/22/2005 9:12:29 AM EDT

[#24]

lasers are cool (especially ir lasers).

not used so much in some situations like hostage rescue cuz it's hard to id YOUR half inch dot when there are a buncha other ones dancing around. imagine 4 half-inch dots being on a terrs nose and one on the hostage's forehead three inches away and you have a millisecond to fire...d'oh!

now, if it's 30 of your buddies and you're facing a jihad hovel, it ain't such a big deal!

Posted: 12/22/2005 9:20:08 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Quoted:
A laser makes you shift your focus from the front sight to the target.

That's not bad. You can shoot perfectly well while focused on the target.

Perhaps, depending on the circumstances. However, there is a large body of evidence that indicates accuracy is related to your focus on the front sight.

If you are trying to hit a broadside BG at 15 feet, you can probably focus on the target and get a hit. Otherwise, front sight and press is a proven technique.

SRM

Posted: 12/22/2005 9:21:57 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Dang he changed his post to take out the PEQ's

Next he will say no crimson trace.

PEQ is used primarily fo targeting, not aiming of individual weapons. But I knew someone would say "it's a laser".

And I'm not talking about non-approved junk soldiers/LE put on their weapons. What is the NSN for crimson trace? There isn't one AFAIK.

I could be wrong on usage. I'll admit that, but most individuals I have spoken to who use their weapons on a regular basis in the course of their jobs, whether it it be LE or military, all share the opinion that lasers are good for target illumination and pointing on a white board, and that's about it.

Ill get the purchase info from work today. All of ours were delivered to the unit in Afghanistan and Iraq, none was purchased using impact credit cards of from the unit funds. If the Army paid for it and gave it to us, then I dont think it falls undert he catagory of "non-approved junk".

Posted: 12/22/2005 9:25:17 AM EDT

[#27]

it's a TOOL only. Train with it if you have one. I, personaly, don't. I train with lights.

Posted: 12/22/2005 9:26:58 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Ill get the purchase info from work today. All of ours were delivered to the unit in Afghanistan and Iraq, none was purchased using impact credit cards of from the unit funds. If the Army paid for it and gave it to us, then I dont think it falls undert he catagory of "non-approved junk".

So then it would be "approved junk"?

Posted: 12/22/2005 9:37:39 AM EDT

[#29]

when i considered adding a laser to the nightstand pistol, my first order of business was to stop by socnet. a search there revealed a pretty good thread on the issue. to a man, they said a weapon light is a good thing, but a visible laser is worse than useless. some of the issues they mentioned have already been brought up--reaction time, showing one's position, and lead calculation. but the most salient point has yet to come up here.

we have all spent years training with our pistols. draw--present--front sight--fire. as we improve, the 2nd and 3rd step blend into one another, and as we get even better, they become a natural and instinctive part of drawing, until we (hopefully) arrive at a seamless draw--fire. the way this works is muscle memory. we simply practice until our bodies form the unbreakable habit of developing the correct head-hand-target relationship, even in odd postures or firing positions.

as one poster put it, in a correct firing posture, the dot from the laser will always be hidden behind the front sight--the shooter will never see it. but the effort to see the dot during training will actually force a person to abandon a proper head-hand-target relationship, and all that muscle memory work will be deprogrammed--that practicing with a laser will actually force a shooter out of a good shooting posture, and that will carry over into combat/defensive shooting. you fight like you train, in other words, for good or ill.

i don't claim to be an expert, or even particularly good, with handguns, so don't take my word for it. but these guys are the world's best at combat shooting, so you may want to search "visible laser" at socnet.

[ETA: if you've never been over there, be advised that virtually everyone on that site is a verified ranger/SEAL/SF soldier, so tread lightly, and think before you post.]

Posted: 12/22/2005 9:43:37 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
when i considered adding a laser to the nightstand pistol, my first order of business was to stop by socnet. a search there revealed a pretty good thread on the issue. to a man, they said a weapon light is a good thing, but a visible laser is worse than useless. some of the issues they mentioned have already been brought up--reaction time, showing one's position, and lead calculation. but the most salient point has yet to come up here.

we have all spent years training with our pistols. draw--present--front sight--fire. as we improve, the 2nd and 3rd step blend into one another, and as we get even better, they become a natural and instinctive part of drawing, until we (hopefully) arrive at a seamless draw--fire. the way this works is muscle memory. we simply practice until our bodies form the unbreakable habit of developing the correct head-hand-target relationship, even in odd postures or firing positions.

as one poster put it, in a correct firing posture, the dot from the laser will always be hidden behind the front sight--the shooter will never see it. but the effort to see the dot during training will actually force a person to abandon a proper head-hand-target relationship, and all that muscle memory work will be deprogrammed--that practicing with a laser will actually force a shooter out of a good shooting posture, and that will carry over into combat/defensive shooting. you fight like you train, in other words, for good or ill.

i don't claim to be an expert, or even particularly good, with handguns, so don't take my word for it. but these guys are the world's best at combat shooting, so you may want to search "visible laser" at socnet.

[ETA: if you've never been over there, be advised that virtually everyone on that site is a verified ranger/SEAL/SF soldier, so tread lightly, and think before you post.]

Wow, this is one of the most logical posts on this thread. This I can understand as a drawback to lasers. Not saying I agree or disagree, but it makes sense.

ByteTheBullet (-:

Posted: 12/22/2005 9:45:57 AM EDT

[#31]

Don't you know it's the ultimate elitist schtick to poo-poo on lasers? People who say they don't use them because lasers give away your position also have 2 million candlepower lights attached to their LBR (Lego Battle Rifle). I'm sure if Surefire used their brainwashing tactics to sell lasers as much as lights, everyone would have one.

I don't see lasers as a replacements for sights (red dot, iron, or otherwise) but a good backup when you can't use them (shooting around corners, awkward positions due to confined spaces, etc..). IMO, you're more likely to need them than the countless other things people blow their money on.

Posted: 12/22/2005 9:50:16 AM EDT

[#32]

Lasers are a good way to make an INTRUDER DIE OF LAUGHTER when he sees you looking like a bad hollywood action movie!!

Posted: 12/22/2005 9:59:33 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

And I'm not talking about non-approved junk soldiers/LE put on their weapons. What is the NSN for crimson trace? There isn't one AFAIK.

5855-01-460-9157 gets you a set of Crimson Trace grips for the M9, they are class IX expendable and also make excellent trading material because damm near everyone who is an asshole in the rear holding onto something you want has an M9.

There are actually a whole lot more various lasers, both visible and IR, in the system than most people are aware of... it just takes alot of research to find them.

Posted: 12/22/2005 10:03:40 AM EDT

[#34]

Lasers are ok. If you have the money with nothing better to spend it on. I had a lasermax on my Beretta and it was cool, it is completely internal so it doesn't hurt your use of holsters, and there are *FEW* situations that it could come in handy, like shooting around corners. The down side is they are very expensive.

Posted: 12/22/2005 10:10:54 AM EDT

[#35]

Under stress you'll be lucky to see the laser.

Posted: 12/22/2005 10:26:44 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
Quoted:

And I'm not talking about non-approved junk soldiers/LE put on their weapons. What is the NSN for crimson trace? There isn't one AFAIK.

5855-01-460-9157 gets you a set of Crimson Trace grips for the M9, they are class IX expendable and also make excellent trading material because damm near everyone who is an asshole in the rear holding onto something you want has an M9.

There are actually a whole lot more various lasers, both visible and IR, in the system than most people are aware of... it just takes alot of research to find them.

thanks - I had no idea. But do any of the shooters actually use them?

Posted: 12/22/2005 10:28:17 AM EDT

[#37]

I'm just kidding with you all. Lasers are kick ass. Especially on Desert Eagles.

Posted: 12/22/2005 10:28:40 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Under stress you'll be lucky to see the laser.

But you think you'll have better luck focusing on the front sight instead of the threat??

Posted: 12/22/2005 10:30:00 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Under stress you'll be lucky to see the laser.

But you think you'll have better luck focusing on the front sight instead of the threat??

What if the bad guy is wearing a bright red shirt standing in front of a bright red wall? It happens you know.

Posted: 12/22/2005 10:35:35 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Under stress you'll be lucky to see the laser.

But you think you'll have better luck focusing on the front sight instead of the threat??

I learned a long time ago to focus on the target, even with iron sights. I found it to be a much more relaxed way of shooting.

Posted: 12/22/2005 10:50:10 AM EDT

[#41]

I've heard a lot of stories from LEO's that Gangsta-thug types that aren't persuaded by the officer drawing his weapon but get serious real quick when a dot's on their chest.

"F-U COP! I 'been shot in da leg befo'! Yo gun don't scare me!"

(click)

"Uhh you wanted me flat on my stomach, fingers locked on my neck, right officer? Did I tell you that I love police officers?"

Posted: 12/22/2005 11:00:37 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
WRT lasers, there is ONE thing to note when comparing to other sighting aids (optical scope, red-dot, reflex, etc)...

For use on a PISTOL, the laser is alot smaller & lighter (esp the CTC or LaserMax style devices)...

in terms of mounting & location, a laser gives you the 'dot' while retaining an easily carryable profile (a/o a side or top mounted conventional optic)...

For rifles, this obviously doesn't apply....

They now make a crimson trace for the ar-15

Posted: 12/22/2005 11:17:15 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Under stress you'll be lucky to see the laser.

But you think you'll have better luck focusing on the front sight instead of the threat??

What if the bad guy is wearing a bright red shirt standing in front of a bright red wall? It happens you know.

Posted: 12/22/2005 11:20:57 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
[ETA: if you've never been over there, be advised that virtually everyone on that site is a verified ranger/SEAL/SF soldier, so tread lightly, and think before you post.]

shit, you gotta be vetted before they even let you register!

that is a "no-bs" site!

notice no lasers, just lights!

Posted: 12/22/2005 11:33:07 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
Quoted:
WRT lasers, there is ONE thing to note when comparing to other sighting aids (optical scope, red-dot, reflex, etc)...

For use on a PISTOL, the laser is alot smaller & lighter (esp the CTC or LaserMax style devices)...

in terms of mounting & location, a laser gives you the 'dot' while retaining an easily carryable profile (a/o a side or top mounted conventional optic)...

For rifles, this obviously doesn't apply....

Hey look, another aviation guy. Where ya at, Im a prop&rotor guy in 25th ID.

Still at 1-222, Ft Eustis...

Posted: 12/22/2005 11:44:59 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
lasers are cool (especially ir lasers).

not used so much in some situations like hostage rescue cuz it's hard to id YOUR half inch dot when there are a buncha other ones dancing around. imagine 4 half-inch dots being on a terrs nose and one on the hostage's forehead three inches away and you have a millisecond to fire...d'oh!

now, if it's 30 of your buddies and you're facing a jihad hovel, it ain't such a big deal!

IIRC, the newer PEQ devices allow you to change the shape projected by the laser from 'just a dot', so as to allow the user to know which laser beam belongs to which weapon....

Posted: 12/22/2005 11:45:00 AM EDT

[#47]

Look fellas, lasers are my business. I can safely say I'm an expert on them. I have several on my weapons and they all have the same problems.

A laser is hard to mount on your pistol. I have several pistols with rail systems, they dont seem to help. ARMS, LaRue and other don't have anything that works for me either. My homebuilt mounting system is delicate and I have to remount it often.

The laser is a little bulky and no pistol I have fits in any of my holsters any more. The remote power supply is a problem too. I always have wires everywhere.

The bulky laser makes for CCW issues

IMO a red dot is much better than any laser system I have used.

Posted: 12/22/2005 11:45:20 AM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
I'm just kidding with you all. Lasers are kick ass. Especially on Desert Eagles.

I keep asking Crimson Trace to make some laser grips for the .50. By the way, shouldn't this discussion be in Lights & Lasers? I thought GD was for asking questions like "How much did you poop today? Poll coming."

Posted: 12/22/2005 11:48:48 AM EDT

[#49]

Look fellas, lasers are my business. I can safely say I'm an expert on them. I have several on my weapons and they all have the same problems.

A laser is hard to mount on your pistol. I have several pistols with rail systems, they dont seem to help. ARMS, LaRue and other don't have anything that works for me either. My homebuilt mounting system is delicate and I have to remount it often.

The laser is a little bulky and no pistol I have fits in any of my holsters any more. The remote power supply is a problem too. I always have wires everywhere.

The bulky laser makes for CCW issues

IMO a red dot is much better than any laser system I have used.

Oh I forgot to add a picture of one of my lasers.

On the positive side I have increased the effective range of the Jennings .22 to about 900 meters, I never have to reload, its full auto at 1200 RPM (20 Hz) and I don't have to use bullets any more. I keep tripping on the damn extention cord a lot though.

Posted: 12/22/2005 12:03:02 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
Look fellas, lasers are my business. I can safely say I'm an expert on them. I have several on my weapons and they all have the same problems.

A laser is hard to mount on your pistol. I have several pistols with rail systems, they dont seem to help. ARMS, LaRue and other don't have anything that works for me either. My homebuilt mounting system is delicate and I have to remount it often.

The laser is a little bulky and no pistol I have fits in any of my holsters any more. The remote power supply is a problem too. I always have wires everywhere.

The bulky laser makes for CCW issues

IMO a red dot is much better than any laser system I have used.

Oh I forgot to add a picture of one of my lasers.

home.comcast.net/~jasondcrum/laser.jpg

On the positive side I have increased the effective range of the Jennings .22 to about 900 meters, I never have to reload, its full auto at 1200 RPM (20 Hz) and I don't have to use bullets any more. I keep tripping on the damn extention cord a lot though.

Haha damn man you had me there

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Lasers...why would anyone not want to use them? (Page 2 of 3)

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