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Posted: 12/21/2005 9:35:08 AM EDT
Who was that guy who defended himself when some thugs tried to hold up a gunshop after hours?
I think he used an AR and he fired more rounds than any other civilian ever in a self-defense situation or something like that.
I think he even shot at a vehicle that tried to ram him once he fled outside.

Anyone remember that or have a link or anything?
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 9:36:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2005 9:36:56 AM EDT by THR-Thumper]
He also used an S&W subgun. I thought of this incident immediately when I read your thread title.

He lived close to the store, IIRC.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 9:38:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By THR-Thumper:
He also used an S&W subgun. I thought of this incident immediately when I read your thread title.

He lived close to the store, IIRC.



Damn, that must have been a hell of a night. I wish I saved some info when I first heard about that.

Link Posted: 12/21/2005 9:38:25 AM EDT
I believe ( read somewhere) that most shootouts occur under 3 yards and involve fewer than six shots.

Link Posted: 12/21/2005 9:39:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By enemy:
I believe ( read somewhere) that most shootouts occur under 3 yards and involve fewer than six shots.




I've heard that too and that's kind of what brought this back to mind. There were A LOT of rounds fired with mag changes and using multiple weapons etc IIRC.

Link Posted: 12/21/2005 9:46:24 AM EDT
Harry Beckwith ... Here's a link to the incident
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 9:52:02 AM EDT
You mean outside of Waco?
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 9:53:00 AM EDT

Harry Beckwith. I've met him, and been in his store. Tough old fella.

Link Posted: 12/21/2005 9:53:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AshNH:
Harry Beckwith ... Here's a link to the incident



Thank you. That's awesome.


THR-Thumper: Good call on the S&W 76.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 9:53:32 AM EDT
Trying to figure out how many spare mags to carry today?
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 9:53:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:
You mean outside of Waco?



I didn't mean that one but point taken.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 9:55:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AshNH:
Here's a link to the incident



This story reeks of
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 9:58:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AshNH:
Harry Beckwith ... Here's a link to the incident



Cool story. Of course, I think he would have been better served with the AR and a pistol and more ammo, but it worked out for him in the end.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 9:58:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mcnielsen:
Trying to figure out how many spare mags to carry today?





Not exactly but more trying to explain my thinking to some people. I'm on the survival forum often and I am not a militia-type but we have food and water at home to cover our asses. Also auxiliary heat and some other basic preps in case of prolonged bad weather or whatever. I've been through some hurricanes back when I lived in the Caribbean but it was sometimes hard to explain to people why I liked being prepared until NOLA. That seems to have made some basic preps seem reasonable to a lot more people.
I thought this was a good example of why someone might want a little more than a 10/22 and a 38 (although that is pretty much an ideal combo).
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 10:00:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:

Originally Posted By AshNH:
Here's a link to the incident



This story reeks of



NOPE....it's true
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 10:02:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2005 10:06:00 AM EDT by KlubMarcus]

Originally Posted By AshNH: Harry Beckwith ... Here's a link to the incident

He reached for the weapons he had laid out for just such a contingency.

First was a Charter Arms Bulldog revolver in an old Bucheimer crossdraw paddle holster. It slipped easily into place in front of his left hip. It was loaded with five rounds of his favorite .44 Special ammunition, Winchester Silvertip hollowpoint.

Next came the Model 76 submachine gun. One magazine was in place, the bolt properly closed, "condition three." More magazines were rubber-banded to the extended stock. Beckwith had found this to be a faster way to access them than to attach a pouch in the same place. He slung the licensed submachine gun over his right shoulder.

He picked up an AR-15, a gun he has always described as a "Colt Sporting Rifle." It contained one magazine downloaded to only 15 rounds. Another such magazine was banded to its plastic stock as well. With the other hand, he scooped up a Remington Model 1100 12 gauge semiautomatic shotgun, already fully loaded.

He da MAN! He was 63 years old and packing serious HEAT!
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 10:10:48 AM EDT
Umm Wow..... Thats a lot of lead down range.....
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 10:17:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By desertmoon:
NOPE....it's true



May be but a google search of some of the key words only garners 3 hits and all of them are versions of this transcription of what is claimed an American Handgunners article. A search of the American Handgunners archives gets zero hits. Anyone have the issue cited??
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 10:24:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rickinvegas: May be but a google search of some of the key words only garners 3 hits and all of them are versions of this transcription of what is claimed an American Handgunners article. A search of the American Handgunners archives gets zero hits. Anyone have the issue cited??
You can always call the guy! http://www.ebang.com/ffl_dealers/florida/1093.shtml

Company: HARRY BECKWITH - GUN DEALER
Name: HARRY BECKWITH
Address: 12120 NORTH HIGHWAY 441
City: MICANOPY, FL 32667
Phone Number: 3524663340
Fax Number:
Email Address: RABA1111@AOL.COM
Transfer Fee: 25.00
Discount: OPEN
Notes:

Link Posted: 12/21/2005 10:39:54 AM EDT
Anyone got a pic of a Model 76 SMG. I couldnt find one via yahoo nor have I ever seen one
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 10:44:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NonConformist:
Anyone got a pic of a Model 76 SMG. I couldnt find one via yahoo nor have I ever seen one



Link Posted: 12/21/2005 10:54:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:

Originally Posted By NonConformist:
Anyone got a pic of a Model 76 SMG. I couldnt find one via yahoo nor have I ever seen one



rds.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=smith+and+wesson+model+76/v=2/SID=e/l=IVS/SIG=11p56oqc2/EXP=1135280665/*-http%3A//mysw76.com/images/U76Group.jpg




I take it those aren't available now due to the supressor or f/A?

Link Posted: 12/21/2005 10:59:56 AM EDT
If you've fired a Swedish K, you've pretty much fired a 76. Low cyclic and very controllable.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 11:09:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2005 11:10:25 AM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By THR-Thumper:
He also used an S&W subgun. I thought of this incident immediately when I read your thread title.

He lived close to the store, IIRC.



S&W 76 IIRC as well as a FA AR(RDIAS) or SA AR. Both were used in the same incident IIRC Ayoob wrote about it a long time ago. Don't know where to find the artical though i have read it before.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 11:10:32 AM EDT
Most rounds fired by a civilian in self-defense?
According to a Texas Grand Jury, the ATF raid on Feb. 28 in Waco, TX
B-D acted in self-defense against excessive force.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 11:50:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Most rounds fired by a civilian in self-defense?
According to a Texas Grand Jury, the ATF raid on Feb. 28 in Waco, TX
B-D acted in self-defense against excessive force.



the second amendment's original intent was realised in that incident.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 11:56:32 AM EDT
Wasnt there some jwelery store owner in LA thats been robbed many times and he's got pistols all over the store for New York reloads?
Each time he gets robbed he uses more pistols or something like that.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 11:58:18 AM EDT
Let me be the first to say it...87rounds!
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 11:59:54 AM EDT
I don't think he should get credit for the rounds that he sprayed recklessly into the air.

Really, if you're gonna go to all the trouble of confronting what, six?, armed males, you should at least have the mindset to go out there with a winning plan. Giving them warning shots (suppressive fire, bullshit) wasn't really much of a tactical plan and I'm sure warning shots/suppressive fire isn't taught at any reputable schools.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 12:17:40 PM EDT
SJSAMPLE-- He was there, he made the call. Turns out it was the right one. Lets not monday mornng quarterback it. I bet the grand jury would have sent him to trial, if the sheriffs had shown up to find seven body's. Not every decsion you'll need to make is taught in "a reputable school". Sometimes you gotta use your gut.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 12:19:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
I don't think he should get credit for the rounds that he sprayed recklessly into the air.

Really, if you're gonna go to all the trouble of confronting what, six?, armed males, you should at least have the mindset to go out there with a winning plan. Giving them warning shots (suppressive fire, bullshit) wasn't really much of a tactical plan and I'm sure warning shots/suppressive fire isn't taught at any reputable schools.



Well he is allive and not in jail. How many of us citizens can say we have ever been in a situation like that? Outside of the Military I would say he is one of few.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 12:32:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By POW-MIAneverforget:
SJSAMPLE-- He was there, he made the call. Turns out it was the right one. Lets not monday mornng quarterback it. I bet the grand jury would have sent him to trial, if the sheriffs had shown up to find seven body's. Not every decsion you'll need to make is taught in "a reputable school". Sometimes you gotta use your gut.



If you read in the newspaper about a guy who stopped his car from being burglarized by spraying rounds into the air, you'd be one out of many (I hope) decrying the guy's ignorance.

Just because he lived and got lucky and hit one guy (with 105 rounds?) doesn't make him a tactical or technical genius. It makes him lucky. Giving armed individuals a chance to kill you by expending good ammo is not a plan.

And, why NOT "monday morning quarterback" this situation?
If we don't, then any "tactic" (very loosely used) that we read about is acceptable?

Whatever happened to "check your target, check your backstop".
This guy did neither and 105rnds and ONE HIT makes him a tactical genius.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 12:43:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By POW-MIAneverforget:
SJSAMPLE-- He was there, he made the call. Turns out it was the right one. Lets not monday mornng quarterback it. I bet the grand jury would have sent him to trial, if the sheriffs had shown up to find seven body's. Not every decsion you'll need to make is taught in "a reputable school". Sometimes you gotta use your gut.



If you read in the newspaper about a guy who stopped his car from being burglarized by spraying rounds into the air, you'd be one out of many (I hope) decrying the guy's ignorance.

Just because he lived and got lucky and hit one guy (with 105 rounds?) doesn't make him a tactical or technical genius. It makes him lucky. Giving armed individuals a chance to kill you by expending good ammo is not a plan.

And, why NOT "monday morning quarterback" this situation?
If we don't, then any "tactic" (very loosely used) that we read about is acceptable?

Whatever happened to "check your target, check your backstop".
This guy did neither and 105rnds and ONE HIT makes him a tactical genius.



His actions aren't perfect but he was spotted, in the open and faced 7 possibly armed men who just saw him shoot at the vehicle. You think they didn't all know at that moment it was time to fight? What would be your tactical call to make 5 to 7 men drop where they are before one of them could return fire when you are not in shape to be running around?

One 5.56mm hit though windshield glass is not as easy as you may suppose. Disableing the second vehicle was a decent call in my book. I'm not sure how I'd handle 5 other guys carefully one at a time without allowing them to scatter on me or return fire.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 12:45:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Grunteled:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By POW-MIAneverforget:
SJSAMPLE-- He was there, he made the call. Turns out it was the right one. Lets not monday mornng quarterback it. I bet the grand jury would have sent him to trial, if the sheriffs had shown up to find seven body's. Not every decsion you'll need to make is taught in "a reputable school". Sometimes you gotta use your gut.



If you read in the newspaper about a guy who stopped his car from being burglarized by spraying rounds into the air, you'd be one out of many (I hope) decrying the guy's ignorance.

Just because he lived and got lucky and hit one guy (with 105 rounds?) doesn't make him a tactical or technical genius. It makes him lucky. Giving armed individuals a chance to kill you by expending good ammo is not a plan.

And, why NOT "monday morning quarterback" this situation?
If we don't, then any "tactic" (very loosely used) that we read about is acceptable?

Whatever happened to "check your target, check your backstop".
This guy did neither and 105rnds and ONE HIT makes him a tactical genius.



His actions aren't perfect but he was spotted, in the open and faced 7 possibly armed men who just saw him shoot at the vehicle. You think they didn't all know at that moment it was time to fight? What would be your tactical call to make 5 to 7 men drop where they are before one of them could return fire when you are not in shape to be running around?

One 5.56mm hit though windshield glass is not as easy as you may suppose. Disableing the second vehicle was a decent call in my book. I'm not sure how I'd handle 5 other guys carefully one at a time without allowing them to scatter on me or return fire.



+1

He had been involved in two previous shootings and it sounds like he did fine in both of those instances.

I hope I do as well as he did if I am ever in the unfortunate position of 7 to one.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 12:45:42 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 12:52:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Grunteled:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By POW-MIAneverforget:
SJSAMPLE-- He was there, he made the call. Turns out it was the right one. Lets not monday mornng quarterback it. I bet the grand jury would have sent him to trial, if the sheriffs had shown up to find seven body's. Not every decsion you'll need to make is taught in "a reputable school". Sometimes you gotta use your gut.



If you read in the newspaper about a guy who stopped his car from being burglarized by spraying rounds into the air, you'd be one out of many (I hope) decrying the guy's ignorance.

Just because he lived and got lucky and hit one guy (with 105 rounds?) doesn't make him a tactical or technical genius. It makes him lucky. Giving armed individuals a chance to kill you by expending good ammo is not a plan.

And, why NOT "monday morning quarterback" this situation?
If we don't, then any "tactic" (very loosely used) that we read about is acceptable?

Whatever happened to "check your target, check your backstop".
This guy did neither and 105rnds and ONE HIT makes him a tactical genius.



His actions aren't perfect but he was spotted, in the open and faced 7 possibly armed men who just saw him shoot at the vehicle. You think they didn't all know at that moment it was time to fight? What would be your tactical call to make 5 to 7 men drop where they are before one of them could return fire when you are not in shape to be running around?

One 5.56mm hit though windshield glass is not as easy as you may suppose. Disableing the second vehicle was a decent call in my book. I'm not sure how I'd handle 5 other guys carefully one at a time without allowing them to scatter on me or return fire.



I'm glad the guy is OK, but let's look at his actions:
1. He put himself into the open.
2. He saw them, but made the conscious decision NOT to aim at them when firing. Ask yourself what circumstances would you NOT aim at armed targets? If you're gonna go out there with the mindset of not doing what's necessary, why go out at all? "Suppressive fire" works best when it's actually directed at the targets.
3. Disabling the vehicle was a good call. But the guy burned through an awful lot of useful ammo that he might have needed to actually shoot at armed assailants. He relied upon the police to show up and take control. What if they hadn't?

I think too many people are awed by the fact that;
a) he fired 105 rounds (yet you'll bash cops who fire 10+ and only score two hits) and,
b) he used a S&W Model 76 and an AR (for which he didn't bring enough ammo).

Poor tactics is poor tactics.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 12:55:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By THR-Thumper:
He also used an S&W subgun. I thought of this incident immediately when I read your thread title.

He lived close to the store, IIRC.



105 rounds.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 1:02:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By enemy:
I believe ( read somewhere) that most shootouts occur under 3 yards and involve fewer than six shots.




Not so sure if that's accurate. I've had a number of reputable people say that according to a study that all of them had read that the average gunfight happens at seven yards, and lasts 3.5 seconds. The six shots may have been true at one time, but I doubt if it still holds true. That was due to cops carrying revolvers and they would have a tendency to empty the gun. Most cops carry autos now and still have that tendency to empty the mag.

I'll try and find some support for my statement. I think it may have been an FBI study, but I could be wrong. Let me check on it.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 1:20:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By Grunteled:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By POW-MIAneverforget:
SJSAMPLE-- He was there, he made the call. Turns out it was the right one. Lets not monday mornng quarterback it. I bet the grand jury would have sent him to trial, if the sheriffs had shown up to find seven body's. Not every decsion you'll need to make is taught in "a reputable school". Sometimes you gotta use your gut.



If you read in the newspaper about a guy who stopped his car from being burglarized by spraying rounds into the air, you'd be one out of many (I hope) decrying the guy's ignorance.

Just because he lived and got lucky and hit one guy (with 105 rounds?) doesn't make him a tactical or technical genius. It makes him lucky. Giving armed individuals a chance to kill you by expending good ammo is not a plan.

And, why NOT "monday morning quarterback" this situation?
If we don't, then any "tactic" (very loosely used) that we read about is acceptable?

Whatever happened to "check your target, check your backstop".
This guy did neither and 105rnds and ONE HIT makes him a tactical genius.



His actions aren't perfect but he was spotted, in the open and faced 7 possibly armed men who just saw him shoot at the vehicle. You think they didn't all know at that moment it was time to fight? What would be your tactical call to make 5 to 7 men drop where they are before one of them could return fire when you are not in shape to be running around?

One 5.56mm hit though windshield glass is not as easy as you may suppose. Disableing the second vehicle was a decent call in my book. I'm not sure how I'd handle 5 other guys carefully one at a time without allowing them to scatter on me or return fire.



I'm glad the guy is OK, but let's look at his actions:
1. He put himself into the open.
That was an admitted mistake. He should have remained more concealed. In the end though once it went sideways good options start disappearing fast.

2. He saw them, but made the conscious decision NOT to aim at them when firing. Ask yourself what circumstances would you NOT aim at armed targets? If you're gonna go out there with the mindset of not doing what's necessary, why go out at all? "Suppressive fire" works best when it's actually directed at the targets.

Well, that's a good point, and maybe he's on the shady side of the law here, but in purely self
preservation terms.... maybe when I'm not sure I could get away with raking them all down on full auto but I'm fairly certain most people are going to hit their bellies and stay there when full auto bullets come snapping close by. Strictly from a legal standpoint I say if he had the right to shoot over them then he should have been right to drop them dead. But you can face some hard questions when asked why after some had "quit the fight" (and we all know that may not be true) by dropping to the ground you still killed them.


3. Disabling the vehicle was a good call. But the guy burned through an awful lot of useful ammo that he might have needed to actually shoot at armed assailants. He relied upon the police to show up and take control. What if they hadn't?

Well, they did show up and he had a pistol and shotgun to fall back to as well. And it's easier to deal with them if the sub-gun is going dry if they are all still bunched together and a pissing their pants. Again, I do see your point and I tend to agree with it.

I think too many people are awed by the fact that;
a) he fired 105 rounds (yet you'll bash cops who fire 10+ and only score two hits) and,
b) he used a S&W Model 76 and an AR (for which he didn't bring enough ammo).

Poor tactics is poor tactics.



Yes it is.

I'm not really saying that "supressive fire" is the best call. Personally I question the wisdom of taking on two cars and 7 men whatever the circumstances, unless it's clear you are about to be killed by them. Once the car came at him though the best laid plans and such just went out the window. Now it's time to stay alive, and while I'm no fan of "warning shots" in this case it had the desired effect, nobody else was killed or wounded and the police did arrive. Let's face it... he probably didn't get a lot of training, most people don't, and you will not just get "tactical" out of thin air.



I too was puzzeled by the 15 rounds per mag on the AR though? Why?

This also proves that the AR is NOT the weapon of choice when faced with a vehicle.

Link Posted: 12/21/2005 1:22:53 PM EDT
Warning shots should not be a genral rule in defusing an armed threat. But disableing the car sounded like a good idea. but not sure what i would do since i have never been in that situation, but i would have definatly shoot to kill the guy in the car who tried to run me down if that was the case. Idont think i would have sprayed the whole place with 100 rnds at guys holding guns.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 1:29:18 PM EDT
His plan worked because he was not facing a well armed, motivated enemy. If they had attempted a serious counter assault, he would have died.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 1:46:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Grunteled:


This also proves that the AR is NOT the weapon of choice when faced with a vehicle.




Why is that? Just tells me the guy wasn't accurate enough to get more hits in. The one shot that did hit the robber killed him, but it took a couple minutes.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 2:14:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
I don't think he should get credit for the rounds that he sprayed recklessly into the air.

Really, if you're gonna go to all the trouble of confronting what, six?, armed males, you should at least have the mindset to go out there with a winning plan. Giving them warning shots (suppressive fire, bullshit) wasn't really much of a tactical plan and I'm sure warning shots/suppressive fire isn't taught at any reputable schools.




That was probably his "story" to make himself look better in front of the grand jury. He did kill someone and anything he could say to make himself look less like a "stone cold killer" would be to his benefit.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 2:15:21 PM EDT
Lotta armchairs bitchin about his actions aint done nothin but ninja a bunch of paper.....knobs.....
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 2:16:35 PM EDT
There was some dude that worked at either a ruger factory or H&K factory that fired a class three resulting from a road rage incident if I remember correctly. Or perhaps I don't remember correctly. Either way, the bottom line is......shooting at bad guys is fun!
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 2:17:04 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 2:27:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:

Originally Posted By enemy:
I believe ( read somewhere) that most shootouts occur under 3 yards and involve fewer than six shots.




Not so sure if that's accurate. I've had a number of reputable people say that according to a study that all of them had read that the average gunfight happens at seven yards, and lasts 3.5 seconds. The six shots may have been true at one time, but I doubt if it still holds true. That was due to cops carrying revolvers and they would have a tendency to empty the gun. Most cops carry autos now and still have that tendency to empty the mag.

I'll try and find some support for my statement. I think it may have been an FBI study, but I could be wrong. Let me check on it.





Something I've been teaching for 15 years is that those statistics are part of the UCR in the officers killed section.

Those stats are not for the average gunfight, those stats are for the average officer killed. Those are losing gunfights. 7 yards, with majority within 7 feet, 2.5 rounds fired, 2.5 seconds, low light (with a national hit ratio of 25%)

Fairburn stopping power study done by Police Marksman Association showed wining LE gunfights at 10 yards, 12 rounds fired, 50% hit ratio.

Of course none of this directly correlates to private sector scenarios. But it's pretty easy to figure out: be farther away, fire more rounds, hit more often.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 2:29:05 PM EDT
I think it all went down like this........

Link Posted: 12/21/2005 2:31:05 PM EDT
tag for home
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 5:26:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Grunteled: I too was puzzeled by the 15 rounds per mag on the AR though? Why?
He had 30 rounds in there, 15 was the number quoted for public consumption.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 6:08:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2005 6:08:59 PM EDT by MudBug]

Originally Posted By KlubMarcus:

Originally Posted By Grunteled: I too was puzzeled by the 15 rounds per mag on the AR though? Why?
He had 30 rounds in there, 15 was the number quoted for public consumption.




During the time this happened these were most like 20 round mags.
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