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Posted: 12/19/2005 11:10:25 PM EDT
I knew Waco was a HUGE turning point in my life - I went from thinking, "Good, child-raping religious Messiah figure and demented followers got roasted. Great!" to "Hey, why'd the ATF get involved?" to "newslady's holding up a 20 mm cannon round saying 'bullets like this were flying through the air at the ATF agents,' what bullshit," to "Uh, oh, I got totally suckered by the Left Leaning Losers in media who are desperately trying to cover for Kintax and George Bush I's craptastic lies at RR and Waco."

I really became a gun owner in earnest when I figured out that the culture war between the Left and decent Americans had been kicked into high gear by the Smacktard In Chief. Been one ever since. Now I collect rifles and handguns, load for them, and shoot for accuracy.

I also watch the Bo0berment like a HAWK, waiting for them to threaten our way of life, and am politically active to thwart creeping Communism wherever I see it.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:13:01 PM EDT
I have now abandoned my plan to sell sawed-off shotguns and start a religious compound where I take members wives as my own.

It's really put a dash in my future, that's for sure.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:16:34 PM EDT
0
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:16:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 11:19:10 PM EDT by wetidlerjr]

Originally Posted By samsong:
...I also watch the Bo0berment like a HAWK, waiting for them to threaten our way of life, and am politically active to thwart creeping Communism wherever I see it.



I don't watch any so-called "boOberment" and I don't think Communism is a viable political force in this nation.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:17:00 PM EDT
none? sorry i have no intentions of ever shooting it out with the law. in the end you always lose.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:18:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 11:19:31 PM EDT by wetidlerjr]
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:18:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By swingset:
I have now abandoned my plan to sell sawed-off shotguns and start a religious compound where I take members wives as my own.

It's really put a dash in my future, that's for sure.


yeah me too that was in my long terms plans
*sigh*
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:18:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By swingset:
I have now abandoned my plan to sell sawed-off shotguns and start a religious compound where I take members wives as my own.

It's really put a dash in my future, that's for sure.




Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:22:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By swingset:
I have now abandoned my plan to sell sawed-off shotguns and start a religious compound where I take members wives as my own.

It's really put a dash in my future, that's for sure.



Cool! I'll take up that slack. Umm...except for the sawed off shotgun part. Hey what could it hurt.


Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:24:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:

Originally Posted By swingset:
I have now abandoned my plan to sell sawed-off shotguns and start a religious compound where I take members wives as my own.

It's really put a dash in my future, that's for sure.







Lighten up Francis, it's a joke.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:26:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By swingset:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:

Originally Posted By swingset:
I have now abandoned my plan to sell sawed-off shotguns and start a religious compound where I take members wives as my own.

It's really put a dash in my future, that's for sure.







Lighten up Francis, it's a joke.



I've been eating alot of red meat lately. my bad.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:29:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:31:30 PM EDT
it happened. thats it. im not gonna gloat over it for the rest of my life
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 12:06:45 AM EDT
It should serve as a reminder of the power of uncontrolled government and distorted media and the damage they do to America. The ATF intended the raid to be a media circus, the media contacted Koresh beforehand to announce the raid and get his comments. That did not help their already lousy plan.

Koresh was known to come into town everyday for mail and lunch, the local cops all knew hin and had chatted before. If they intended to arrest him they could have done it quietly, drove out to his house and served his followers with a warrant to search. Their intention was a flashy raid and pics of "assault rifles" for the dems to rail about on TV.

Their was at least one liscensed FFL on site and as I recall one class three owner. So it was possible that everything was legit and they had legit full auto weapons. Again a simple check would have avoided killing dozens.

Child molesters or abusers are not within ATF jurisdiction, they were the reason for the warrant and the goofy assault. I bought a copy of the warrant for 2 dollars at a RTCKA guys display years ago and read it. It was mostly crap and lies.

ATF agents can be seen on film shooting other agents in the back and shooting into rooms agents just entered, thus killing themselves.

I live an hour from "Ruby Ridge". That was a goat fuck from the word go. They framed that guy and screwed him over in court because he would not become an informant for the FBI/ATF. He was odd, but no great threat to anybody and his house was a plywood shithole. Nobody ever tried to go for a drive with the local sheriff and tell him to come on in and get it over with. Other than when the FBI and ATF were trying to kill him, he lived his whole life without breaking the law. They got a guy to give him something like $5,000 dollars to shorten an H&R single bbl shotgun to 17 and 1/2 inches or something to that effect. In court the FBI admitted they "placed" evidence where they "felt" it should go to photograph it for trial, they were held in contempt several times and his was aquitted of everything but one count of failure to appear.

This stuff changed nothing in mylife, I do not do anything illegal to start with and my politics is uninteresting. For me , it is just a reminder of what happens when democratis/socialist ideals become the norm. You quickly find they support free speech when you only say what they want to hear. They only support guns that they like to shoot. You can have as much freedom as they decide you need. It is a good lesson in what a democratic attorney general means by tolerance.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 12:42:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
It changed nothing in my life other than gave us something additional to talk about at gun shows.

All Koresh had to do was put down the guns and come out and let the lawyers handle it all. All the government had to do was walk away and come back and arrest him later.

Same with Ruby Ridge. He gave up in the end anyway and his lawyers kicked the govrnments ass, so what did his not comming out earier accomplish? Just got friends/family killed. Government could have walked away on this also, but they had to be macho.




At Waco, the ATF went in shooting. At Ruby Ridge, the feds shot Weaver's son in the back. Then they shot his wife holding their infant in her arms and killed her. The FBI rewrote the ROE after the fact to cover their rear ends. How could Weaver have any confidence after that to come out and not be shot? I think you give the gov't too much credit and automatically presume that Koresh and Weaver are the bad guys the gov't says. Sorry, but I don't buy the gov't line of lies and BS at all in these cases.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 1:12:40 AM EDT
Never heard of Ruby Ridge until 2000 or so. Waco struck me mainly as another example of government incompetence. I wasn't mad or angry, but it was pretty horrible.

I bought an AK, my first gun, in 1999 at age 26 because I was absolutely certain Al Gore was going to be elected and of course he and the Dims would try to ban assault rifles. I figured I'd get one before that happened.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 1:27:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:
Never heard of Ruby Ridge until 2000 or so. Waco struck me mainly as another example of government incompetence. I wasn't mad or angry, but it was pretty horrible.

I bought an AK, my first gun, in 1999 at age 26 because I was absolutely certain Al Gore was going to be elected and of course he and the Dims would try to ban assault rifles. I figured I'd get one before that happened.



We're the same age......but I bought my AK's much earlier than you, in '94.

Waco and RR just made me realize that the people in our .gov were as human and petty as I am and do not deserve any more special rights or privileges than the rest of us.

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 1:32:15 AM EDT
I considered getting a Norinco AK in 93. I had the money and they were only $350. But I just couldn't justify getting one, because I wondered how often I'd use it, and what good was it anyway? I liked assault rifles and guns, but I didn't need or have a use for them.

Then of course, they were banned and tripled in value
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 1:41:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:
I considered getting a Norinco AK in 93. I had the money and they were only $350. But I just couldn't justify getting one, because I wondered how often I'd use it, and what good was it anyway? I liked assault rifles and guns, but I didn't need or have a use for them.

Then of course, they were banned and tripled in value




I did not care that I did not have a use for them, I just figgered that I had better get them now or never be able to get them at all.

That, and it pissed off my anti-gun parents.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 2:14:55 AM EDT
RR and Waco was a wake-up call for me.

If I need to explain this to anybody, then it's clear that person doesn't agree with me.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 2:52:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
RR and Waco was a wake-up call for me.

If I need to explain this to anybody, then it's clear that person doesn't agree with me.



+1

(Thank you W-G for saving me several paragraphs and lots of spell check)
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 2:54:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By UPD415:

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
It changed nothing in my life other than gave us something additional to talk about at gun shows.

All Koresh had to do was put down the guns and come out and let the lawyers handle it all. All the government had to do was walk away and come back and arrest him later.

Same with Ruby Ridge. He gave up in the end anyway and his lawyers kicked the govrnments ass, so what did his not comming out earier accomplish? Just got friends/family killed. Government could have walked away on this also, but they had to be macho.




At Waco, the ATF went in shooting. At Ruby Ridge, the feds shot Weaver's son in the back. Then they shot his wife holding their infant in her arms and killed her. The FBI rewrote the ROE after the fact to cover their rear ends. How could Weaver have any confidence after that to come out and not be shot? I think you give the gov't too much credit and automatically presume that Koresh and Weaver are the bad guys the gov't says. Sorry, but I don't buy the gov't line of lies and BS at all in these cases.



I do believe that his point is that stubborn asses on both sides exacerbated problems that didn't exist until people made them a problem. Weaver was an idiot in his personal associations and let it get him in trouble. He failed to man up and go take care of things like he should have. The .gov should have done things right.

Waco was the clash of idiots . . . Koresh and the ATF.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 3:05:05 AM EDT
I saw those incidents as a warning.

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 3:11:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HillBillySniper:
none? sorry i have no intentions of ever shooting it out with the law. in the end you always lose.



yip lets all roll over and die/give up when the time is need;d. no wonder this country is going to shit fast. Noone wants to step up ,,it's all just abad dream lil johnny,,go back to bed.......
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 3:19:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 3:27:27 AM EDT by COZ]
Ruby Ridge, I learned that an FBI sniper can shoot your unarmed wife and get by with it. All over a VERY minor gun charge.

Waco, I learned that the ATF was VERY STUPID! The commander of that raid should be in jail for such a complete fuck-up. They could have easily gotten Koresh in town. BUT NOOOOOOOOO some arrogant dumbass at the ATF had to play hero and get out all his toys and he got 4 agents killed.

The Branch-Davidians were friggin morons. Same as Ruby Ridge sad that there are all these people dead over some MINOR gun charges. Remember shithead Schumer wouldn't let the NRA examine the weapons to see if they were actually illegal machine guns.

All in all I learned that if the Police come knocking, Don't be stupid because they WILL kill you and get by with it. If they don't then your family gets a check. Your fame as a martyr won't even last 15 minutes. You'll be portrade as a gun crazed maniac who had an ARSENAL with THOUSANDS of rounds or ARMOR PIERCING AMMO. (a couple of Federal 550 round boxes of .22's from Wally World) Also I haven't nor will I break the law there-by giving them any reason to visit me. AND my house number is prominately displayed outside (as to prevent any wrong address crap!)
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 3:34:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By protus:

Originally Posted By HillBillySniper:
none? sorry i have no intentions of ever shooting it out with the law. in the end you always lose.



yip lets all roll over and die/give up when the time is need;d. no wonder this country is going to shit fast. Noone wants to step up ,,it's all just abad dream lil johnny,,go back to bed.......



Damn what a startling revelation, I had no idea that the country was going down the crapper because everybody doesn't have a shootout with the police.

If the police would burst into my house what in the hell would it accomplish to shoot it out with them. Oh yeah I know, I and my family would be killed and I'd make the news for a couple of nights. Then the state would get all of my guns.

Sorry dude I'd take my chance with the courts. I like life and I'm not a criminal.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 3:51:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 3:53:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
It changed nothing in my life other than gave us something additional to talk about at gun shows.

All Koresh had to do was put down the guns and come out and let the lawyers handle it all. All the government had to do was walk away and come back and arrest him later.

Same with Ruby Ridge. He gave up in the end anyway and his lawyers kicked the govrnments ass, so what did his not comming out earier accomplish? Just got friends/family killed. Government could have walked away on this also, but they had to be macho.




So what you are saying is that lethal force is ok when Contempt of Cop is the charge? That it's ok to kill anyone who stands between you and a man you try to arrest for an ALLEGED $200 transfer tax?

I'm getting really sick of people parroting the claims of child abuse. There were no such claims on the arrest warrant, and the State had already been out to the grounds a month earlier in a custody dispute investigation. Unfortunately in America I can walk into a mall in any town, point my finger at you and say: "David_Hineline is a child molester. He impregnated a 12 and 13 year old!" and you would be guilty as sin in the mind of everyone who saw me make the claim. Every person there is programmed to treat you like dirt, because after all, it's not the truth that matters but the seriousness of the charge.

Guilty until proven innocent bud, and the arrest warrant shows that the ATF was really grasping for straws on this one. It's on the net, give it a read.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 3:55:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 3:57:58 AM EDT by TheOtherDave]

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
RR and Waco was a wake-up call for me.

If I need to explain this to anybody, then it's clear that person doesn't agree with me.



Wish I had your clarity in thought... I still want to pound it in to people. This is NOT a story that should be left to die quietly.

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 3:57:41 AM EDT
Big fat 0!
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:08:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 4:18:22 AM EDT by Wobblin-Goblin]
Interestingly, RR and Waco DID have a positive impact in atleast one area: The .gov was put on notice that there are some Americans who would rather fight like hell than bend over and take the .gov dick up their asses.

.Gov learned this lesson. Remember the Montana Freemen?

ETA: Funny tidbit. When the Freemen story hit, I was in the University hospital due to an infection in my elbow (somebody buried his front teeth in my arm while playing football). Damn thing swelled up to two or three times normal size. Cellulitis is a hell of a thing. Anyway, I'm in my hospital bed all doped up on some heavy-duty stuff, and I'm trying to focus on the television as the FBI and the Freemen are doing the dosy-doh. Some young nurse is attending to me and I keep yelling out "Juss leevEM along! Juss leevEM along you Sons and Bitches! Why won't you juss leevEM along?!"

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:30:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By COZ:

Originally Posted By protus:

Originally Posted By HillBillySniper:
none? sorry i have no intentions of ever shooting it out with the law. in the end you always lose.



yip lets all roll over and die/give up when the time is need;d. no wonder this country is going to shit fast. Noone wants to step up ,,it's all just abad dream lil johnny,,go back to bed.......



Damn what a startling revelation, I had no idea that the country was going down the crapper because everybody doesn't have a shootout with the police.

If the police would burst into my house what in the hell would it accomplish to shoot it out with them. Oh yeah I know, I and my family would be killed and I'd make the news for a couple of nights. Then the state would get all of my guns.

Sorry dude I'd take my chance with the courts. I like life and I'm not a criminal.



Except the police never entered his house, they shot him in the gut while he was standing at the front door trying to talk to them. But let's not confuse your acceptance of an ass rapeing with facts.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:31:50 AM EDT
Well, Waco certainly acted as a focal point for certain groups (like McVeigh - Nichols).
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:44:30 AM EDT

RR and Waco was a wake-up call for me.

If I need to explain this to anybody, then it's clear that person doesn't agree with me.



Amen. It was my wakeup call from Sheepledom.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:48:33 AM EDT



waco and ruby ridge taught me a few things:

1) if the .gov decides you are a "danger" (read: different), then you are gone.

2) if you are going to stand up to the .gov, don't expect anyone to help you. most will think you are crazy for fighting the government, the rest will use your fight against the government as justification for why you are crazy.

3) 99% of the people can somehow justify enduring whatever the government throws at them with "...i'm not a criminal" (though the two are not even related).


Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:00:57 AM EDT
0

Didn't even cause me to buy an extra container fo tinfoil.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:10:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 5:11:05 AM EDT by TUMOR]

All Koresh had to do was put down the guns and come out and let the lawyers handle it all. All the government had to do was walk away and come back and arrest him later.


Now THAT'S funny!

Lawyers...........don't get me started.

And government doesn't have ANY interest in walking away and doing anything reasonably!

If government had acknowledged that WACO and Ruby Ridge were massive fuck-ups we would have seen heads roll and FEDERAL GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES doing prison time.
Did we see any punishment?
NOT ONE!!!!!!!!!!!

Government will do it again!!!
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:12:07 AM EDT
Wake up call on the naked power of .gov
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:24:12 AM EDT
I decided getting into an armed conflict with federal agents isn't a good idea.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:25:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 5:26:13 AM EDT by Wobblin-Goblin]

Originally Posted By JIMBEAM:
I decided getting into an armed conflict with federal agents isn't a good idea.


Sometimes it doesn't matter what you think.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:31:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Jame_Retief:

Originally Posted By UPD415:

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
It changed nothing in my life other than gave us something additional to talk about at gun shows.

All Koresh had to do was put down the guns and come out and let the lawyers handle it all. All the government had to do was walk away and come back and arrest him later.

Same with Ruby Ridge. He gave up in the end anyway and his lawyers kicked the govrnments ass, so what did his not comming out earier accomplish? Just got friends/family killed. Government could have walked away on this also, but they had to be macho.




At Waco, the ATF went in shooting. At Ruby Ridge, the feds shot Weaver's son in the back. Then they shot his wife holding their infant in her arms and killed her. The FBI rewrote the ROE after the fact to cover their rear ends. How could Weaver have any confidence after that to come out and not be shot? I think you give the gov't too much credit and automatically presume that Koresh and Weaver are the bad guys the gov't says. Sorry, but I don't buy the gov't line of lies and BS at all in these cases.



I do believe that his point is that stubborn asses on both sides exacerbated problems that didn't exist until people made them a problem. Weaver was an idiot in his personal associations and let it get him in trouble. He failed to man up and go take care of things like he should have. The .gov should have done things right.

Waco was the clash of idiots . . . Koresh and the ATF.



On that thought process, you better pay that rolling through a stop sign ticket before your family members start getting shot.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:32:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:34:30 AM EDT
I took 10 AKs, (8 underfolders, 2 regular stocked), removed their pistol grips, coated them with a light cosmoline-like substance, and placed them all into a five foot piece of 8 inch PVC pipe with a female cap at one-end and a screw-on cap at the other end.

Then hid it....for a year.

Just to see IF it could be done.

It could.

Eric The(NowIHaveToKillYou)Hun
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:36:24 AM EDT
If we ever get to the point where hiding our guns is the only way to keep them, then hiding the guns is the worst thing we can do at that point.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:38:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 5:46:01 AM EDT by JIMBEAM]

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By JIMBEAM:
I decided getting into an armed conflict with federal agents isn't a good idea.


Sometimes it doesn't matter what you think.



Regardless of the government's actions, Koresh and Weaver were/are a couple of numbnuts. I suspect I am more likely to be hit by an asteriod than to end up on the wrong side of an ATF APC door knocker down thingie.



If you call yourself a messiah and preach about armed conflict with .gov don't be surprised when it happens.

Self-fulfilling prophecy
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:12:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
If we ever get to the point where hiding our guns is the only way to keep them, then hiding the guns is the worst thing we can do at that point.


In Connecticut, you're probably right!

Welcome to Texas!

The Land of Arsenals!

Eric The(WellArmed)Hun
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:23:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
If we ever get to the point where hiding our guns is the only way to keep them, then hiding the guns is the worst thing we can do at that point.


In Connecticut, you're probably right!

Welcome to Texas!

The Land of Arsenals!


In Connecticut, I didn't bury 10 AKs in a PVC pipe for a year like you did in Texas.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:50:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 6:51:26 AM EDT by HardShell]
These two events had a much more profound effect upon me as a "citizen" (i.e., how I view my government) than it did upon me as a "gun owner" (i.e., how I buy and use my guns), per the wording of your original question.

The '94 AWB had much more of an effect on my habits as a "gun owner."
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:22:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:24:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By protus:

Originally Posted By HillBillySniper:
none? sorry i have no intentions of ever shooting it out with the law. in the end you always lose.



yip lets all roll over and die/give up when the time is need;d. no wonder this country is going to shit fast. Noone wants to step up ,,it's all just abad dream lil johnny,,go back to bed.......



protus

I’ll take the middle ground on this one. How does that saying go?

“It's too late to work from within the system, but it's too soon to shoot the bastards.”

Some times the middle is the worst place to be because all choices look equally bad.

In these two cases I believe the government grossly and probably criminally mishandled the situation, but that’s not to say they did not have probable cause for a warrant.


Rich V
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:46:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

In Connecticut, I didn't bury 10 AKs in a PVC pipe for a year like you did in Texas.

Yeah, I can believe it.

And that's a damn shame, too.

Eric The(ArsenalOwning)Hun
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