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Posted: 12/19/2005 11:31:56 AM EDT
I have poly pro's, field jacket liners and all sorts of snivel gear. I am going to fort Irwin which is in the desert and supposedly cold as shit in the winter. My question is will BDU's plus a gortex jacket plus some gloves keep me warm.

I am not the kind of guy who bundles all up unless it is fucking cold. People keep warning me about how cold it is, but my gortex jacket really doesn't look that warm...
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:33:40 AM EDT
87 degrees!
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:34:00 AM EDT
The Goretex is a moisture barrier only. It doesn't really have any insulating properties to speak of. It will keep out the wind and rain, and let your body moisture escape, which is a passive comfort measure. You will need someting else to provide insulation.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:34:26 AM EDT
You will be too cold.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:34:31 AM EDT
Take your poly-pros.

Kharn
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:37:18 AM EDT
It's just a moisture barrier. When you look at gortex you'll notice it's to thin to have any insulation capability. When I go skiing I wear poly-pro underneath it and that system works great. If it's colder I throw on one of those brown liners issued in Germany.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:38:18 AM EDT
don't wear one into a liquor store.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:42:22 AM EDT
Layers are your friend. The Gortex will keep the wind and rain off of you, but does not provide the airspace required as insulation. Cold in the desert isn't as bad as cold in, say, Minot, but it's still pretty chilly to be camping in--around single digits to teens.
Bring lots of thin to medium layers. During hunting camps I've successfully used the following layers:

- Underwear & T-shirt
- polypro long johns
- BDU pants/flannel shirt
- Fleece jacket
- Windproof outer covering (Gortex pants and jacket


Gloves and hat are a MUST. You lose something like 60% of your body heat through your head. A good warm stocking cap makes all the difference in the world.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:47:34 AM EDT
+1 on the stocking cap. Also it Amazing how much warmer you will be if you wrap a scarf around your neck under your jacket.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:01:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
don't wear one into a liquor store.



Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:07:33 PM EDT
BTDT with Gore-tex. I like good quality, old fasioned wool.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:28:40 PM EDT
You also need a Turtle Fur neck warmer. Best thing since sliced bread.

Bob
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:29:51 PM EDT
Having been to NTC four times, yes, it's cold as hell. When it's cold, say below 35 degrees simply wear polypro top and bottom, and your gortex over that, forget the BDU's, you'll be warmer without them. Bring a balacava, that really comes in handy, and pleny of socks-- change your socks a couple of times a day and you'll be a lot warmer. Good Luck.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:30:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Burley:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
don't wear one into a liquor store.





I dont get it.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:33:17 PM EDT
Goose down and a T shirt.

And WTF is up with the "87".
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:41:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:

Originally Posted By Burley:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
don't wear one into a liquor store.





I dont get it.



you might end up buying alot of wine!
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:42:14 PM EDT
Ditch the polypro and Gortex. If you're Army buy the PCU level 1 & 2 underwear, plus the Spears fleece jacket and ORC soft shell. If your USMC get the peckham fleece pullover, DSCP fleece jacket and a NYCO BDU top big enough to go over both.

Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:51:28 PM EDT
equits (never seen it spell always just say it) or poly pro with your goretex is what works best. If you get really snivley you can pull out your bear suit or the black jacket and bottoms.

no use and telling him all kinds of crazy crap to bring. If he is going to ntc he will only be allowed issued gear. go with the gortex over field jacket anyday. I have never had a problem with my body its always hands head and feet that are chilled. worry more about glove bolli choice and unless you have ICW boots I would suggest some decent socks.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 2:21:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nickforney:
no use and telling him all kinds of crazy crap to bring.



I agree. Everything i listed is issue gear.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 2:35:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 2:37:43 PM EDT by topknot]
Greetings Greg.

From my research here and elswhere, I ordered the following - all from Ebay:


1. Polypros for inner layer to wick away sweat

2. Bear suit for the middle layer to insulate (see photos and link):

US Military Bear Suit

3. Gortex outer shell.

So, looks like all you are missing is the bear suit. Either shell out the big bucks at Cabelas or do like I did and find them on Ebay. Good luck and thanks for your service to our Country!

!S
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 2:49:46 PM EDT
I've lived in the Barstow/Daggett area(where Ft Irwin NTC is located) for 16 years and it can get pretty chilly there in the Mojave Desert(130 miles north of Los Angeles) at night time. The current weather conditions is partially cloudy with lows in the mid-30s and highs in the mid-60s.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:04:10 PM EDT
you should be able to get the bear suit issued...don't go out spending money on it unless you have to. I think they are spendy anyway. Even if you have to buy the military issue. just get a top I wear mine all the time lounging around. you can layer the small and medium thickness polys for leg warmth.

works in alaska I'm sure it will work there too.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:26:38 PM EDT
had gortex overseas in the winter and it was one of the best pieces of gear i had

out
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:39:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NewbHunter:
BTDT with Gore-tex. I like good quality, old fasioned wool.



this is interesting. Got into skiing several years ago. some places I have been wind blows, temps down around 2 or 3 fahrenheit. layered up with northface stuff and a gortex shell (heavy but no insulation to speak of) and felt great with fairly light and easy to manuever in gear. same gear in wet blowing snow works great. and works in near 32 degree weather.

then i see the survival show where this guy says only wool. for serious outdoor stuff only wool. wont burn or melt (an issue i guess if your huddled up close to fires at night) retains heat, does ok in wet and real tuff. not the high tech stuff.

so i'm curious. people that depend on staying alive in extended periods outside in cold (very cold .. but not arctic weather) what's the deal.. gortex or wool?
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:00:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By st0newall:

Originally Posted By NewbHunter:
BTDT with Gore-tex. I like good quality, old fasioned wool.



this is interesting. Got into skiing several years ago. some places I have been wind blows, temps down around 2 or 3 fahrenheit. layered up with northface stuff and a gortex shell (heavy but no insulation to speak of) and felt great with fairly light and easy to manuever in gear. same gear in wet blowing snow works great. and works in near 32 degree weather.

then i see the survival show where this guy says only wool. for serious outdoor stuff only wool. wont burn or melt (an issue i guess if your huddled up close to fires at night) retains heat, does ok in wet and real tuff. not the high tech stuff.

so i'm curious. people that depend on staying alive in extended periods outside in cold (very cold .. but not arctic weather) what's the deal.. gortex or wool?


well arctic warriors use exactly what I just said to use? you will overheat fast in a bear suit if you are moving. its only for gaurd posts or extended waiting around. on the move polys with gortex is where its at. Ive taken numerous cold weather survival courses now up here and they all preach the same thing.

when it comes to staying alive AND FUNCTIONAL it is very important that you take care of your feet and hands. we have arctic mits that help alot with the hands and micky mouse boots (vb boots) for the extreme cold. Just keep your layering where it needs to be. if it means stop walking for a second to add or remove a layer. it will save you time in the end. make sure you remove layers when you need to though. if you start sweating alot you will freeze down alot faster. also control the air vents on your gortex and bear suit.


good luck out at ntc greg...Im on my way out there in febuary.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 5:55:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Pangea:
Goose down and a T shirt.

And WTF is up with the "87".



Research has proven the Gortex will give you an 87 degree ambient temp!
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:54:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By st0newall:

Originally Posted By NewbHunter:
BTDT with Gore-tex. I like good quality, old fasioned wool.



this is interesting. Got into skiing several years ago. some places I have been wind blows, temps down around 2 or 3 fahrenheit. layered up with northface stuff and a gortex shell (heavy but no insulation to speak of) and felt great with fairly light and easy to manuever in gear. same gear in wet blowing snow works great. and works in near 32 degree weather.

then i see the survival show where this guy says only wool. for serious outdoor stuff only wool. wont burn or melt (an issue i guess if your huddled up close to fires at night) retains heat, does ok in wet and real tuff. not the high tech stuff.

so i'm curious. people that depend on staying alive in extended periods outside in cold (very cold .. but not arctic weather) what's the deal.. gortex or wool?



Well, I think it depends. I should have probably clarified better.

If you're doing a sport outdoors like skiing, backpacking, etc. then gore-tex is great, or any other windproof/waterproof and lightweight fabric. Obviously wool in those instances is going to be heavy and you won't be able to move nearly as well. Although it might be a good idea to have a wool shirt undernieth. I actually used to work on the National Ski Patrol, so I have a bit of experience in those conditions.

When I say wool, I guess I was thinking more of pulling guard duty, walking around or standing around in the cold for long hours, or if you're doing manual labor outside, like cutting down trees, etc. The reason I think wool is better in those situations is that it's warmer and you don't need the freedom of movement like you do in a sport or something similar. Plus, if you are doing manual labor your fancy new gore-tex jacket is likely to get ripped easily. A good quality wool jacket can take a lot more abuse and will probably last forever (ie Filson).

Really, what it comes down to is your intended use. What I meant by my post is that often people think gore-tex is the be-all, end-all of outerwear for cold weather. It's not. It's great for certain situations, but for what it sounded to me like 1911greg would be doing I think wool would be better.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:05:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 5:11:50 AM EDT by warlord]
1911greg: Where state are you currently living in?

ETA:
Where the NTC is located, is desert area, very little rain fall, which is why the USMC has its largets supply depot in the region. The temps are not the bitter cold that you would find in northern & central USA.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:08:01 AM EDT
Gore tex is a great outer layer to keep your inner layers dry from the elements while letting any moisture buildup out. one of the great advantages to layering is that you can in a few minuites change (add/remove) depending on your comfort level --temp cools off,wind picks up ,sun ges down --add a layer or two to compensate. rain,snow wind dies off, sun comes out, sheltered area or near a campfire or a higher activity level drop off a layer or two. One of the things you want to try and do --or not do-- is sweat. Once you perspire and a layer gets moist or damp --you will get cold ...fast. If you start to pespire remove some layers or ventilate a little to cool your clothing system down and get the moisture out and if something gets wet/frozen get it off and dry it out as soon as possible.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:13:44 AM EDT
Bring everything black, tan, or cammo. and warm that you have.

Irwin is cold. Very, very, hellishly cold.

Line your fartsack with your poncho liner and, a bankie from home.

You won't want to get out of it in the morning.

Bring a propane stove to make ramen in the morning to avoid getting up for chow.

I suggest two canteen cups and, instant coffee.

Heat the coffe, and, drink it as you make the ramen.

Got me through my march rotations there.

Oh, god help you if you are in a soft skinned vehicle.

I was in a 113, and, I damn near got blown over almost every night.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:14:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:15:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:15:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By nickforney:
you should be able to get the bear suit issued...don't go out spending money on it unless you have to. I think they are spendy anyway. Even if you have to buy the military issue. just get a top I wear mine all the time lounging around. you can layer the small and medium thickness polys for leg warmth.

works in alaska I'm sure it will work there too.



Only place I've seen the bear suit issued was when I was in GE.
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