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Posted: 12/19/2005 10:25:11 AM EDT
Virginia Drug Case Show Two Sides Of Patriot Act Use
Virginian-Pilot, The (Norfolk, VA) (KRT)
via NewsEdge Corporation


Dec. 16--Federal law enforcement officials in the Eastern District of Virginia wasted little time in using the tools of the USA Patriot Act following its passage soon after the 2001 terrorist attacks.

One of the most significant cases to result was the investigation into the "Virginia jihad," a group of defendants in Northern Virginia charged with aiding al-Qaida terrorists and the Taliban. Nine have been convicted in connection with the case.

That investigation and others "would have been almost impossible to complete" without the expanded law enforcement powers under the act, the FBI said in recently unclassified documents obtained by a Washington civil liberties group.

As the U.S. Senate prepares to vote on renewing the Patriot Act, a debate over its use and possible abuse has intensified locally and around the country. A vote could come today.

One debate involves the use of the act in ordinary criminal cases. Provisions in the act have been used in cases unrelated to terrorism, such as a $2 million Hampton Roads drug conspiracy that led to the arrests of 23 people earlier this year.

Defense attorneys and civil libertarians were surprised when they started seeing Patriot Act provisions turn up in routine criminal matters, despite language in the act that does not limit its usage to terrorism cases.

Norfolk defense attorney Andrew A. Protogyrou said he has been seeing more frequent use of Patriot Act provisions in non terrorism cases. Protogyrou, who represented one of the suspects in the drug case, said, "You never saw this easy access to wiretaps before. "

U.S. Rep. Bobby Scott, the only member of Congress from Hampton Roads to vote against the act and its renewal, said he's concerned about the potential for abuse.

"You have an incentive to snoop on people for whom there is no probable cause that they've committed a crime," Scott said Thursday.

Federal prosecutors and agents would not talk about the drug case because it is ongoing and involves matters under court-ordered seal. Court records say members of the ring distributed $2 million worth of cocaine, ecstasy, methamphetamine and marijuana throughout Hampton Roads over the past 18 months. Twenty of the defendants have been convicted.

Court records indicate that the case involved search warrants executed across seven states.

FBI agents also intercepted about 10,000 phone calls on multiple lines, including 5,000 calls made by one individual in a five-week period earlier this year, according to court records in the case. The Patriot Act allows agents to tap multiple phones at once, the "roving wiretap" provision.

The FBI has been reluctant to disclose how often it has used wide-ranging eavesdropping and search-and-

seizure tools under the act, and critics say a lack of oversight has led to abuses, an accusation the FBI denies.


The Electronic Privacy Information Center, a Washington civil liberties organization, found 113 instances of "violations of internal procedures and federal law" in the use of certain Patriot Act provisions, according to documents the group released this week.

The FBI called those incidents technical or administrative problems, something that happens as agents learn how to use new laws.

But in one of those 113 reports from a field supervisor to the agency's Intelligence Oversight Board, the FBI said an unidentified federal agent's actions in obtaining financial records "may have been unlawful."


The conduct of the agent, the FBI said, was "willful and intentional," yet the report added that "she did not realize that she had acted in contravention" of the law and bureau policy.

"The documents we obtained raise questions that need to be answered," Marc Rotenberg, the electronic privacy center's executive director, said this week. "We don't think that the provisions provide adequate oversight."

Scott, a Democrat from Newport News, agreed with Rotenberg.

"The Patriot Act has provisions in it that are extremely invasive into people's private affairs without making any significant difference in public safety," Scott said.

Scott said he's also concerned about the cross over provision in the act, which allows for the sharing of information between law enforcement and intelligence agencies.

The Bush administration says it is one of the most important provisions in the act. An intelligence agent who, for example, is tracking a terrorist overseas and discovers a drug conspiracy is now allowed to pass that information along to criminal investigators, something prohibited pre-Patriot Act.

The FBI lists scores of cases in which that sharing of information has helped dismantle criminal enterprises or led to terrorism suspects. A drug case in Texas evolved into a terrorism investigation of illegal financing of the radical anti-Israel group Hamas, the FBI said.

The sharing provision also led to the convictions in the Virginia jihad case, which involved terrorism training in the woods of Northern Virginia using paintball guns.

Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales reported in June that 401 individuals have been criminally charged as a result of terrorism investigations using Patriot Act provisions.

"We are waging a war that defends the lives of all Americans," Gonzales said that month. "And we wage that war each day in a way that values and protects" civil liberties.

But Scott countered that the act allows agents to spy on ordinary citizens who have not committed criminal acts and may never know someone was listening to their phone calls or reading their e-mail.

"If they limited it to terrorists, there wouldn't be any debate," Scott said. "But this is not only for run of the mill crimes, but for activities that aren't even criminal."

He cited, hypothetically, intelligence information obtained in an international trade investigation being turned over to criminal investigators. That was something not allowed pre-Patriot Act.

These criticisms have led some Congressional leaders to rethink approval of a bill reauthorizing provisions of the Patriot Act set to expire Dec. 31.

While the House easily approved the renewal bill this week, its chances of passing the Senate are not as good. A bipartisan group of senators is threatening a filibuster.

In the frenzy of post- Sept. 11

terrorism fears, Congress pushed through the USA Patriot Act, an acronym for Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act.

A renewal of the act that passed the House on Wednesday added some oversight, but Scott and others said it's not enough.

The reauthorization bill would extend for four years two of the Patriot Act's most controversial provisions -- allowing roving wiretaps and permitting secret warrants for books, records and other items from businesses, hospitals and organizations such as libraries.

The expanded use of national security letters was given a four-year sunset provision. Such letters, which do not require judicial approval, can be used to sweep up vast amounts of information on U.S. citizens suspected of having terrorism ties.

About 30,000 such letters are issued each year, according to a recent news report, and their use has become controversial because the government continues to hold and share information gathered on ordinary citizens even if it is collected inadvertently or after they have been deemed innocent.

Scott said he hopes the sunset provisions will keep federal agents in check.

"They're going to have to answer for what they've done," he said. "Everybody knows that if it's ever abused, they'll never get it renewed again."

Link Posted: 12/19/2005 10:34:12 AM EDT
How is this a problem?
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:51:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tromatic:
How is this a problem?



If you dont understand already, I doubt you would understand after having it explained to you.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:52:39 AM EDT
The patriot act only applies to non citizens right?
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:54:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:
The patriot act only applies to non citizens right?


Keep telling yourself that...it'll help you sleep at night.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:55:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rxdawg: If you dont understand already, I doubt you would understand after having it explained to you.
Let me explain. Using the Patriot Act to catch drug crime in addition to terrorism is like getting a tax refund. Finally the 'gubment is giving the taxpayer a twofer! They grew brains.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:55:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheCynic:

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:
The patriot act only applies to non citizens right?


Keep telling yourself that...it'll help you sleep at night.





You hate our freedoms.

Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:00:05 PM EDT
that's bullshit. Even the name of the act says it's to combat terrorism. I'm not complaining that they busted a drug ring, but as it spreads from terrorism to everything else they could be conducting random searches on every one of us. Personally, I don't want some feds searching my house whenever they feel like it
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:00:56 PM EDT
It has begun.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:05:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 12:07:09 PM EDT by pyro6988]
Remember this was created to help prevent terrorism.


Using the Patriot act in ways it wasn't supposed to be opens up other ways that it can misused. Like monitor the citiznes to make sure we are staying in line.

Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:06:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tromatic:
How is this a problem?



imagine hillary rodham is president, still feel good about it?
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:14:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tromatic:
How is this a problem?

Because AMERICAN CITIZENS are being caught doing illegal activities when we all know that AMERICAN CITIZENS are INCAPABLE of committing crimes - and even if they did, absolutely NO AMERICAN CITIZEN should ever be arrested for it!

USA
USA
USA


Patriot Act = Police State, Auschwitz, Soviet Gulags And Evil Tyranny!!!

USA
USA
USA


Patriot Act = Orwell's 1984, Nazism, Communism and Summary Executions In The Street!!!

USA
USA
USA


Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:32:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARDunstan:
It has begun.




"It" began a long, long time ago. And this is just one of the more recent embarassments for the government. Remember this one?


60 MINUTES
Television Broadcast February 27, 2000

ECHELON; WORLDWIDE CONVERSATIONS BEING RECEIVED BY THE ECHELON SYSTEM MAY FALL INTO THE WRONG HANDS AND INNOCENT PEOPLE MAY BE TAGGED AS SPIES

STEVE KROFT, co-host:

If you made a phone call today or sent an e-mail to a friend, there's a good chance what you said or wrote was captured and screened by the country's largest intelligence agency. The top-secret Global Surveillance Network is called Echelon, and it's run by the National Security Agency and four English-speaking allies: Canada, Great Britain, Australia and New Zealand.

The mission is to eavesdrop on enemies of the state: foreign countries, terrorist groups and drug cartels. But in the process, Echelon's computers capture virtually every electronic conversation around the world.

How does it work, and what happens to all the information that's gathered? A lot of people have begun to ask that question, and some suspect that the information is being used for more than just catching bad guys.

(Footage of satellite; person talking on cell phone; fax machine; ATM being used; telephone pole and wires; radio towers)

KROFT: (Voiceover) We can't see them, but the air around us is filled with invisible electronic signals, everything from cell phone conversations to fax transmissions to ATM transfers. What most people don't realize is that virtually every signal radiated across the electromagnetic spectrum is being collected and analyzed.

How much of the world is covered by them?

Mr. MIKE FROST (Former Spy): The entire world, the whole planet--covers everything. Echelon covers everything that's radiated worldwide at any given instant.

KROFT: Every square inch is covered.

Mr. FROST: Every square inch is covered.

(Footage of Frost; listening post)

KROFT: (Voiceover) Mike Frost spent 20 years as a spy for the CSE, the Canadian equivalent of the National Security Agency, and he is the only high-ranking former intelligence agent to speak publicly about the Echelon program. Frost even showed us one of the installations where he says operators can listen in to just about anything.

Mr. FROST: Everything from--from data transfers to cell phones to portable phones to baby monitors to ATMs...

KROFT: Baby monitors?

Mr. FROST: Oh, yeah. Baby monitors give you a lot of intelligence.

(Footage of listening posts)

KROFT: (Voiceover) This listening post outside Ottawa is just part of a network of spy stations, which are hidden in the hills of West Virginia, in remote parts of Washington state, even in plain view among the sheep pastures of Europe.

This is Menwith Hill Station in the Yorkshire countryside of Northern England. Even though we're on British soil, Menwith Hill is an American base operated by the National Security Agency. It's believed to be the largest spy station in the world.

(Footage of Menwith Hill Station; aerial footage of NSA headquarters; supercomputers)

KROFT: (Voiceover) Inside each globe are huge dishes which intercept and download satellite communications from around the world. The information is then sent on to NSA headquarters at Fort Meade, Maryland, where acres of supercomputers scan millions of transmissions word by word, looking for key phrases and, some say, specific voices that may be of major significance.

Mr. FROST: Everything is looked at. The entire take is looked at. And the computer sorts out what it is told to sort out, be it, say, by key words such as 'bomb' or 'terrorist' or 'blow up,' to telephone numbers or--or a person's name. And people are getting caught, and--and that's great.

(Footage of National Security Agency; Carlos the Jackal; two Libyans in court)

KROFT: (Voiceover) The National Security Agency won't talk about those successes or even confirm that a program called Echelon exists. But it's believed the international terrorist Carlos the Jackal was captured with the assistance of Echelon, and that it helped identify two Libyans the US believes blew up Pan-Am Flight 103.

Is it possible for people like you and I, innocent civilians, to be targeted by Echelon?

Mr. FROST: Not only possible, not only probable, but factual. While I was at CSE, a classic example: A lady had been to a school play the night before, and her son was in the school play and she thought he did a--a lousy job. Next morning, she was talking on the telephone to her friend, and she said to her friend something like this, 'Oh, Danny really bombed last night,' just like that. The computer spit that conversation out. The analyst that was looking at it was not too sure about what the conversation w--was referring to, so erring on the side of caution, he listed that lady and her phone number in the database as a possible terrorist.

KROFT: This is not urban legend you're talking about. This actually happened?

Mr. FROST: Factual. Absolutely fact. No legend here.

(Vintage footage of Fonda; Spock; King; congressional hearing; the Capitol building)

KROFT: (Voiceover) Back in the 1970s, the NSA was caught red-handed spying on anti-war protesters like Jane Fonda and Dr. Benjamin Spock, and it turns out they had been recording the conversations of civil rights leaders like Martin Luther King in the 1960s. When Congress found out, it drafted strict, new laws prohibiting the NSA from spying on Americans, but today, there's enough renewed concern about potential abuses that Congress is revisiting the issue.

Representative BOB BARR (Republican, Georgia): (From C-SPAN) One such project known as Project Echelon engages in the interception of literally millions of communications involving United States citizens.

(Footage of Barr; NSA sign; Goss and Kroft)

KROFT: (Voiceover) But even members of Congress have trouble getting information about Echelon. Last year, the NSA refused to provide internal memoranda on the program to Porter Goss, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee.

What exactly was it that you requested?

Representative PORTER GOSS (Chairman, House Intelligence Committee): Well, I can't get too specific about it, but there was some information about procedures in how the NSA people would employ some safeguards, and I wanted to see all the correspondence on that to make sure that those safeguards were being completely honored. At that point, one of the counsels of the NSA said, 'Well, we don't think we need to share this information with the Oversight Committee.' And we said, 'Well, we're sorry about that. We do have the oversight, and you will share the information with us,' and they did.

(Footage of Goss and Kroft)

KROFT: (Voiceover) But only after Goss threatened to cut the NSA's budget. He still believes, though, that the NSA does not eavesdrop on innocent American citizens.

If the NSA has capabilities to screen enormous numbers of telephone calls, faxes, e-mails, whatnot, how do you filter out the American conversations, and how do you--how can you be sure that no one is listening to those conversations?

Rep. GOSS: We do have methods for that, and I am relatively sure that those procedures are working very well.

(Footage of Madsen; epic.org Web site; Amnesty International gathering; Greenpeace members in a boat; Princess Diana)

KROFT: (Voiceover) Others aren't so sure. Wayne Madsen works with a group called the Electronic Privacy Information Center, which is suing the NSA to get a copy of the documents that were finally turned over to Congressman Goss. Madsen, a former naval officer who used to work for the NSA, is concerned about reports that Echelon has listened in on groups like Amnesty International and Greenpeace. Last year, the NSA was forced to acknowledge that it had more than 1,000 pages of information on the late Princess Diana.

Mr. WAYNE MADSEN (Electronic Privacy Information Center): Princess Diana, in her campaign against land mines, of course, was completely at odds with US policy, so her activities were of tremendous interest to--to the US policy-makers, of course, and--and, therefore, to the National Security Agency eavesdroppers.

KROFT: Do you think the--the NSA only monitored her conversations that involved land mines?

Mr. MADSEN: Well, when NSA extends the big drift net out there, it's possible that they're picking up more than just her conversations concerning land mines. What they do with that intelligence, who knows?

(Footage of newspaper headlines; Menwith Hill Station)

KROFT: (Voiceover) In the early 1990s, some of Diana's personal conversations, as well as those of some others associated with the royal family, mysteriously appeared in the British tabloids. Could some of those conversations have been picked up by that US spy station in England?

Mr. MADSEN: (Voiceover) There's been some speculation that Menwith Hill may have been involved in the intercepts of those communications as--as well.

And how--how could that be legal? Well, British intelligence could say, 'Well, we didn't eavesdrop on members of the British royal family. These happened to be conducted by, you know, one of our strategic partners.' And, therefore, they would skirt the--skirt the British laws against intercepts of communications.

(Footage of National Security Agency sign)

KROFT: (Voiceover) The US admits it often shares intelligence with its allies, but never to get around the law.

Mr. FROST: Never, Steve, will governments admit that they can circumvent legislation by asking another country to do for them what they can't do for themselves. They will never admit that. But that sort of thing is so easy to do. It is so commonplace.

KROFT: Do you have any first-hand experience?

Mr. FROST: I do have first-hand experience where CSE did some dirty work for Margaret Thatcher when she was prime minister. She...

KROFT: What kind of dirty work?

Mr. FROST: Well, at the time, she had two ministers that she said, quote, "They weren't on side," unquote, and she wanted to find out, not what these ministers were saying, but what they were thinking. So my boss, as a matter of fact, went to McDonald House in London and did intercept traffic from these two ministers. The British Parliament now have total deniability. They didn't do anything. They know nothing about it. Of course they didn't do anything; we did it for them.

(Footage of Newsham and Kroft)

KROFT: (Voiceover) One of the few people to acknowledge that they have listened to conversations over the Echelon system is Margaret Newsham, who worked at Menwith Hill in England back in 1979. She had a top secret security clearance.

So who--you--you knew that conversations were being pulled off satellites.

Ms. MARGARET NEWSHAM: Yes. But to my knowledge, all it was going to be would be like Russian, Chinese or, y--you know, foreign.

(Footage of Newsham)

KROFT: (Voiceover) But soon, she says, she discovered it wasn't only the Russians and the Chinese who were the targets.

Ms. NEWSHAM: I walked into the office building and a friend said, 'Come over here and listen to--to this thing.' And--and he had headphones on, so I took the headphones and I listened to it, and--and I looked at him and I'm going, 'That's an American.' And he said, 'Well, yeah.'

KROFT: And it was definitely an American voice?

Ms. NEWSHAM: It was definitely an American voice, and it was a voice that was distinct. And I said, 'Well, who is that?' And he said it was Senator Strom Thurmond. And I go, 'What?'

KROFT: Do you think this kind of stuff goes on?

Mr. FROST: Oh, of course it goes on. Been going on for years. Of course it goes on.

KROFT: You mean the National Security Agency spying on politicians in...

Mr. FROST: Well, I--I...

KROFT: ...in the United States?

Mr. FROST: Sounds ludicrous, doesn't it? Sounds like the world of fiction. It's not; not the world of fiction. That's the way it works. I've been there. I was trained by you guys.

Rep. GOSS: Certainly possible that something like that could happen. The question is: What happened next?

KROFT: What do you mean?

Rep. GOSS: It is certainly possible that somebody overheard me in a conversation. I have just been in Europe. I have been talking to people on a telephone and elsewhere. So it's very possible somebody could have heard me. But the question is: What do they do about it? I mean, I cannot stop the dust in the ether; it's there. But what I can make sure is that it's not abused--the capability's not abused, and that's what we do.

KROFT: Much of what's known about the Echelon program comes not from enemies of the United States, but from its friends. Last year, the European Parliament, which meets here in Strasbourg, France, issued a report listing many of the Echelon's spy stations around the world and detailing their surveillance capabilities. The report says Echelon is not just being used to track spies and terrorists. It claims the United States is using it for corporate and industrial espionage as well, gathering sensitive information on European corporations, then turning it over to American competitors so they can gain an economic advantage.

(Footage of report; plane; report; Raytheon sign; Ford and Kroft)

KROFT: (Voiceover) The European Parliament report alleges that the NSA 'lifted all the faxes and phone calls' between the European aircraft manufacturer Airbus and Saudi Arabian Airlines, and that the information helped two American companies, Boeing and McDonnell Douglas, win a $ 6 billion contract. The report also alleges that the French company Thomson-CSF lost a $ 1.3 billion satellite deal to Raytheon the same way. Glen Ford is the member of the European Parliament who commissioned the report.

Mr. GLEN FORD (European Parliament Member): It's not the--if you want, the Echelon system that's the problem. It's how it's being used. Now, you know, if we're catching the bad guys, we're completely in favor of that, whether it's you catching the bad guys, us or anybody else. We don't like the bad guys. What we're concerned about is that some of the good guys in my constituency don't have jobs because US corporations got an inside track on--on some global deal.

(Footage of encryption machine; Clinton and several men walking; Ford)

KROFT: (Voiceover) Increasingly, European governments and corporations are turning to something called encryption, a system of scrambling phone, fax or e-mail transmissions so that the Echelon system won't be able to read them. The US is worried about the technology falling into the hands of terrorists or other enemies. The Clinton administration has been trying to persuade the Europeans to give law enforcement and intelligence agencies a key with which they can unlock the code in matters of national security. Glen Ford, the European parliamentarian, agrees it's a good idea, in principle.

Mr. FORD: However, if we are not assured that that is n--not going to be abused, then I'm afraid we may well take the view, 'Sorry, no.' In the United Kingdom, it's traditional for people to leave a key under the doormat if they want the neighbors to come in and--and do something in their house. Well, we're neighbors, and we're not going to leave the electronic key under the doormat if you're going to come in and steal the family silver.

KROFT: Y--you said that you think that this is basically a good idea, that we have to do this at some...

Mr. FROST: Oh, in a perfect world, we would not need the NSA, we would not need CSE. But, you know, we have to. We have to in the areas of terrorism, drug lords. We--we'd be lost without them. My concern is no accountability and nothing--no safety net in place for the innocent people that fall through the cracks. That's my concern.

KROFT: Accountability isn't the only issue that's of interest to Congress. There is growing concern within the intelligence community that encryption and the worldwide move to fiber-optic cables, which Echelon may not be able to penetrate, will erode the NSA's ability to gather the intelligence vital to national security. The agency is looking for more money to develop new technologies.


Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:46:37 PM EDT
Don't mention that Echelon stuff. There is no way it can be linked to Bush or the Patriot Act. After all, history only started when Bush was elected. I know I'm on some list somewhere; BFD. Privacy and old-time individual freedom is dead and gone. Dems are so concerned when it's politically good for them about "freedom" and "privacy" for Americans thay they will happily grant the same right to some fucktard who wants to kill us all.
matthew
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:52:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rxdawg:

Originally Posted By Tromatic:
How is this a problem?



If you dont understand already, I doubt you would understand after having it explained to you.



+1, not even worth the trouble.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:56:26 PM EDT
.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:59:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tromatic:
Don't mention that Echelon stuff. There is no way it can be linked to Bush or the Patriot Act. After all, history only started when Bush was elected. I know I'm on some list somewhere; BFD. Privacy and old-time individual freedom is dead and gone. Dems are so concerned when it's politically good for them about "freedom" and "privacy" for Americans thay they will happily grant the same right to some fucktard who wants to kill us all.
matthew







Yep. Real freedom was dead a LOOOOOONG TIME ago. What we have is "freedom lite".
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 1:02:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By Tromatic:
How is this a problem?

Because AMERICAN CITIZENS are being caught doing illegal activities when we all know that AMERICAN CITIZENS are INCAPABLE of committing crimes - and even if they did, absolutely NO AMERICAN CITIZEN should ever be arrested for it!

USA
USA
USA


Patriot Act = Police State, Auschwitz, Soviet Gulags And Evil Tyranny!!!

USA
USA
USA


Patriot Act = Orwell's 1984, Nazism, Communism and Summary Executions In The Street!!!

USA
USA
USA





You might change your tune if you get red-flagged for buying several guns in a very short period of time. Even though the feds have no evidence of wrongdoing, they could then tear your life apart looking for something to charge you with.

Under a different administration that scenario could become very real.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 1:03:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By Tromatic:
How is this a problem?

Because AMERICAN CITIZENS are being caught doing illegal activities when we all know that AMERICAN CITIZENS are INCAPABLE of committing crimes - and even if they did, absolutely NO AMERICAN CITIZEN should ever be arrested for it!

USA
USA
USA


Patriot Act = Police State, Auschwitz, Soviet Gulags And Evil Tyranny!!!

USA
USA
USA


Patriot Act = Orwell's 1984, Nazism, Communism and Summary Executions In The Street!!!

USA
USA
USA





You are disturbing the ARFcom sheep, stop.

BTW, politicians = crooks/criminals
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 1:08:16 PM EDT
I guess I wasn't the only one laughing at Bush last night while he was whining about how his beloved Patriot Act was being fillibustered and such. That's one of only two things Bush has pissed me off with. I just think... what's next?
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 1:18:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MlTCHELL:
I guess I wasn't the only one laughing at Bush last night while he was whining about how his beloved Patriot Act was being fillibustered and such. That's one of only two things Bush has pissed me off with. I just think... what's next?




You don't write a 400 page law overnight. The Patriot Act has been around for a long time and the elite behind the scenes were just waiting for the opportunity to get it through. Bush has just been their errand boy.

Imagine this...Clinton or Bush = Martin Scheen in Apocolypse Now, Colonel Lucas and General Corman = the people behind the scenes in our governement, Freedom = Marlon Brando...you get the picture.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 1:21:57 PM EDT
Just wait until you become a terrorist for your "unlawful" activities and fine your self in some deep shit.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 2:21:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By olyarms:
Just wait until you become a terrorist for your "unlawful" activities and fine your self in some deep shit.


+1 Million

Today's good citizens are tomorrow's criminals. Everyone's fine when it's just terrorists. Or drug users. Or Muslims. Or 'suspected criminals'. Or 'persons of interest'. Or gun owners.

See where this is going?

In Germany they first came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me —
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

--Martin Niemoller
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 2:22:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
You might change your tune if you get red-flagged for buying several guns in a very short period of time. Even though the feds have no evidence of wrongdoing, they could then tear your life apart looking for something to charge you with.

Under a different administration that scenario could become very real.



It's not now? But then it would be a brilliant idea, and show how much they caaaarrrreee about us and our safety as long as it came from some peace love and recycle libtard it would be a good idea. Don't limit your panic to just guns, either. Conservatives and Christians will be on the short list, too.



Link Posted: 12/19/2005 2:24:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KlubMarcus:

Originally Posted By rxdawg: If you dont understand already, I doubt you would understand after having it explained to you.
Let me explain. Using the Patriot Act to catch drug crime in addition to terrorism is like getting a tax refund. Finally the 'gubment is giving the taxpayer a twofer! They grew brains.



In this specific instance, yes - drug dealers going down isnt something to lose sleep over. However, what if you buying 2 stripped AR receivers raises enough red flags to initiate a wiretap on you? Dont think that can happen?

Like I said, you either understand or you dont. I really wonder about people, like you, who applaud this kind of mission creep. Do you really think this sort of thing makes you more secure?

Security vs. freedom is a delicate balancing act - you cannot have both. The most 'secure' nation on Earth is probably North Korea, but would you want to live there?
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 2:27:44 PM EDT
Oh, I wana wear tinfoil.

Committee for State Security


Link Posted: 12/19/2005 2:32:55 PM EDT
but they were given such neat new tools that let them correlate and find all sorts of bad stuff going on ..


you can't blame them.. you would use them too if had their job and the console with its neat graphs and such were sitting next to you.... so you do a little search looking for a bad guy (but not a terrorist) that you were looking fore before you were transferred into you current anti-terrorist dept...

its the wave of the future. so much info, so many electronic signals.. collect them, run analysis and find such bad craziness....

technology.. and your rights.. technology will always take precedence over your rights in the long term...

evenvtually everything you do, except perhaps within your home will be monitored and surveiled and data mined by automated artificial intelligence programs.... and it will be good and you WILL be happy....
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 2:34:32 PM EDT
I'm not a real huge fan of the Patriot Act.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 2:41:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tromatic:
Don't mention that Echelon stuff. There is no way it can be linked to Bush or the Patriot Act. After all, history only started when Bush was elected. I know I'm on some list somewhere; BFD. Privacy and old-time individual freedom is dead and gone. Dems are so concerned when it's politically good for them about "freedom" and "privacy" for Americans thay they will happily grant the same right to some fucktard who wants to kill us all.
matthew



Maybe you are, maybe not. I don't think I am. Just to check, I sent in my application to be on the local draft board, and I got approved. I will be one of the people that decides who goes when we really gear up for an invasion of the whole ME.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 2:46:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:

Originally Posted By Tromatic:
Don't mention that Echelon stuff. There is no way it can be linked to Bush or the Patriot Act. After all, history only started when Bush was elected. I know I'm on some list somewhere; BFD. Privacy and old-time individual freedom is dead and gone. Dems are so concerned when it's politically good for them about "freedom" and "privacy" for Americans thay they will happily grant the same right to some fucktard who wants to kill us all.
matthew



Maybe you are, maybe not. I don't think I am. Just to check, I sent in my application to be on the local draft board, and I got approved. I will be one of the people that decides who goes when we really gear up for an invasion of the whole ME.


o rly?
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 2:56:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By p331083:

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:

Originally Posted By Tromatic:
Don't mention that Echelon stuff. There is no way it can be linked to Bush or the Patriot Act. After all, history only started when Bush was elected. I know I'm on some list somewhere; BFD. Privacy and old-time individual freedom is dead and gone. Dems are so concerned when it's politically good for them about "freedom" and "privacy" for Americans thay they will happily grant the same right to some fucktard who wants to kill us all.
matthew



Maybe you are, maybe not. I don't think I am. Just to check, I sent in my application to be on the local draft board, and I got approved. I will be one of the people that decides who goes when we really gear up for an invasion of the whole ME.


o rly?



rly.

I just mean that if I'm not on a list, or the list I'm on is such a piddly little list, then...

Y'know, that really didn't have a point at all, did it.

Forget I exist.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:40:53 PM EDT
I have to call BS. The Government would never use a law they passed to fight terrorism to monitor people and charge them with other crimes.

They would never read your emails and wiretap you because you got a Nigerian Scammer email.

They would never use the parts of the Patriot Act that ask for lists of books loaned out at libraries to include lists of things sold by merchants to have gun registration.

Our government is here to protect you and would never trample on your inalienable rights.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:46:50 PM EDT
Yay government!!!

As long they say it's for fighting terrorists, they can take away all my civil rights, yippee!
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:27:01 PM EDT
UH you know, Ye olde tyme freedom is still out there. I bet you $10 no Amish person ever got his messages intercepted by echelon! Stop being so dependant on "high-tech". Or if you must assume all communications are being listened to and talk on the phone or e-mail or what ever accordingly. Dont use "flag words" and keep your tone jovial and lite! No tension in that voice, no sir! Oh and stop deluding yourself that you live in a "free country". It takes millions of dead soldiers to gain freedoms, it only takes a hundred dead civilians to lose your freedoms...............
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:41:57 PM EDT
Lets see:

Government wants to go after "assault weapons" again, finds a large internet-based "terrorist militia" organization. Whis organization has "cells" in every state of the country, many which routinely meet for "training operations" consisting mainly of shooting all manner of weaponry.

Most communication is public, however, a select few "militia members" engage in discussions in a members only forum, with the leaders also having several forums for them alone. Covert commmunicatoin is also available through a sustem known as "IM"

Many of the members openly advocate the overthrow of the government through such phrases as "vote from the rooftops", "pressing the reset button", "from my cold dead hands", and "Molon Labe". They have been deemed a threat to national security and the safety of Americans.

IP's logged, emails tracked, phones tapped, homes watched. All because those in power have deemed so.

Don't worry, the ACLU will come to the rescue, because we all know how much they love the gun nuts.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:52:31 PM EDT
Gas-stop-Oh, never mind
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 5:04:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
You might change your tune if you get red-flagged for buying several guns in a very short period of time. Even though the feds have no evidence of wrongdoing, they could then tear your life apart looking for something to charge you with.

Under a different administration that scenario could become very real.


Of course, a different administration. I mean the current administration wouldn't do anything like spy on people without a warrant would they?
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 5:56:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kroagnon:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
You might change your tune if you get red-flagged for buying several guns in a very short period of time. Even though the feds have no evidence of wrongdoing, they could then tear your life apart looking for something to charge you with.

Under a different administration that scenario could become very real.


Of course, a different administration. I mean the current administration wouldn't do anything like spy on people without a warrant would they?



Just like he wouldn't sign a bill knowing it was unconstitutional. (McCain-Feingold)
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:06:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:06:59 PM EDT
Wait a second, I thought the PATRIOT act was intended to extend the capabilities of law enforcement/intelligence in regards to drug lords and mafia organizations to fighting terrorists. If this is so, then why is it that these people NEED to use the PATRIOT act in order to take care of the drug and mafia organizations? Seems to me they never had the power in the first place, and the PATRIOT act provisions were lied about to the sheeple here and elsewhere, i.e. "We already have these abilities when we go after drugs and organized crime, so we should have them when fighting terrorists to".
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:09:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rxdawg: In this specific instance, yes - drug dealers going down isnt something to lose sleep over. However, what if you buying 2 stripped AR receivers raises enough red flags to initiate a wiretap on you? Dont think that can happen?
No, I don't think it will happen because it is a waste of time for the 'gubment to go after arfcommers who aren't up to anything. They're going to run a quick check before they even start a wiretap so they can cover their butts They will find out that you are buying those stripped AR receivers in order to help the US manufacturing sector because you lost your old ones in a tragic boating accident. He He He.

Like I said, you either understand or you dont. I really wonder about people, like you, who applaud this kind of mission creep. Do you really think this sort of thing makes you more secure? Security vs. freedom is a delicate balancing act - you cannot have both. The most 'secure' nation on Earth is probably North Korea, but would you want to live there?
The only reason why North Korea sucks is because their leader is a moron. I understand that the problem isn't the Patriot Act at all, the problem is your vote. You control your vote and influence others to vote properly in order to pick a good leader. Not having the Patriot Act in our spy/LEO toolbox is like not giving your carpenter a hammer because you're afraid another foreman might hit you with it.
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