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Posted: 12/18/2005 4:52:53 PM EDT
Where does a shotgun fail in the self defense mode?

I love shotung and just got into them, to me they are very comfortable, simple, easy to work on, easy to load, and easy to fire.

So I was thinking of a shotgun in a sefl defence roll. As departments are moving away from shotgun, it made me start wondering where a shotgun begins to fail in the self defence roll.

Is it in magazine capacity?
Reloading time?
Weight of ammunition?
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 4:55:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 4:56:05 PM EDT by bfieldburt]
Simple, logical answer....distance.

Short range, a shotty can't be beat.

But if the bad guys are shootin' at you from 75 yards or more and all you have is a shotgun, you're in big, dead sort of trouble.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 4:55:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 4:56:53 PM EDT by www-glock19-com]
all of the above and throw in range without slugs
that said i still have a OLD Scatterguntech 870
but pefer my M4 for almost everything
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 4:56:34 PM EDT
Most PD's use 00 tactical buck. This will limit the range of the weapon as well as present a major challange if friendlies are near by. Lastly, the patrol carbine is better able to defeat most common body armour. There is something to be said for racking the slide on an 870 however!

Regards,
Gary
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 4:56:46 PM EDT
Counter-sniper mode
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 4:58:02 PM EDT
shotguns are great for up close and personal work.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 4:58:13 PM EDT
inside a house, not as maneuverable as a handgun and more easily grabbed from ya
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 4:58:18 PM EDT
I would say it fails when it runs out of ammo....

Roy
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 4:58:57 PM EDT
shoot the hostage
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 4:59:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 4:59:43 PM EDT by DriftPunch]
12 Guage + 18 inch barrel + indoors = your eardrums touching in the middle
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 5:01:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 5:01:34 PM EDT by DK-Prof]
... for home self-defense, the downsides are magazine capacity, and possibly length (compared to an AR carbine of some kind).

Link Posted: 12/18/2005 5:03:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dace:
Where does a shotgun fail in the self defense mode?

I love shotung and just got into them, to me they are very comfortable, simple, easy to work on, easy to load, and easy to fire.

So I was thinking of a shotgun in a sefl defence roll. As departments are moving away from shotgun, it made me start wondering where a shotgun begins to fail in the self defence roll.

Is it in magazine capacity?
Reloading time?
Weight of ammunition?



Magazine capacity and distance.

I think it is practical for police work however.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 5:05:41 PM EDT
In elevators.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 5:06:52 PM EDT
CCW
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 5:08:34 PM EDT
They are big, as I tell every one who tells me their 870 is better for the home than a pistol try clearing your house with a full size shotgun. Go around the corner with out letting the shotgun lead. Now go with a pistol or even an ar with a 16" barrell. Both will perform better.

Shotgun would be great if your house was one big room.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 5:08:53 PM EDT
close in, non-CCW

like in your home or at your door

outside the home, rifle territory
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 5:30:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 5:57:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By olyarms:


Shotgun would be great if your house was one big room.



Or one big hallway
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 5:58:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 5:39:46 AM EDT by olyarms]

Originally Posted By retrainthechimp:

Originally Posted By olyarms:


Shotgun would be great if your house was one big room.



Or one big hallway


"Throw"
WTF WAS I SMOKING
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:01:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tc6969:

Originally Posted By LastDefender:
There is something to be said for racking the slide on an 870 however!

Regards,
Gary



What exactly does this do?



Usually causes a brown stain
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:03:30 PM EDT
The lack of preciesoin
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:05:44 PM EDT
Do a search for Old_Painless' report on buckshot at different distances. You'll see just how far 00-buck is effective.

HH
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:06:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JBowles:
The lack of preciesoin



Is that French?
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:08:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dace:
So I was thinking of a shotgun in a sefl defence roll.



Perhaps you should try your local bakery then.

Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:21:57 PM EDT
For Self-Defense purposes (not Law Enforcement or military, which has much more varied and harsher demands), the shotgun fails when:

1. There are more bad guys simultaneously attacking you than you have shells in the gun
2. You're at weird, out-of-house distances (typically 30+ yards if using buckshot and can't transition to slugs quickly). My longest in-house shot is a little under 15 yards.
3. Somebody's being held hostage and you need accuracy and precision to skull-punch a bad guy.

Otherwise, a 12 gauge is a beast. I sleep with one under the bed, because the items in the above list are near unfathomable for my personal "self defense" situation
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:23:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 6:55:49 PM EDT by SWO_daddy]
After seeing Old Painless' BoT tests, I have to wonder about the "lack of precision" of shotguns in a HD role. The three tactical buck loads he tested all had spreads of 3" or less at HD distances (12' or so). Some were down in the 2" range. Excuse me, but that's sufficiently precise to take on anyone w/o creating havoc all around. The longest room in my house is my great room in the basement, and it's probably 12 yards or so in the longest dimension. In any case, there's no access to the basement from the outside. At the distances I would be dealing with upstairs, a shotgun has about as much precision I would need.

Muzzle blast excessive with a shotgun? Well, there is a point beyond which you will suffer hearing damage and it just becomes a matter of degree. I'm pretty sure that ANY firearm discharged inside a house is going to cross the threshold of pain.

Magazine capacity. Damn. If 8 rounds are not enough, transition to handgun or find someplace else to live.....

Nothing wrong with a pistol or carbine. But methinks that, FOR A HOMEOWNER, a shotgun will do just as well as anything else.

And then there's the issue of cost. A quality carbine is $800 +/-. A used 1100 in excellent condition can be had for less than half that. Add a mag extension for roughly $80, chop the barrel as close to 18" as you want, and you have a formidable weapon for 1/2 the cost of any AR.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 7:04:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 8:32:31 PM EDT by Tin_Star]
The shotgun doesn't fail in the self defense mode, it excels in it. There is probably no other gun more PC, or socially acceptable for use as a home defense/ self defense weapon.
I can't think of any other readily available shoulder fired weapon that will deliver a consistant one shot stop as the 12 guage shotgun. It is devistating to the human body.
They are relatively inexpensive, simple to use, and ammo is readily available in many different configurations.
You can walk into any hardware, sporting goods, or rural feed store anywhere across this country and buy shotgun shells. Buckshot and Slugs are pretty cheap, so you can afford to stockpile ammo.
If I knew that an axe weilding zombie cyclops was about to crash through my front door, I can't think of any other weapon I'd want to have in my hands at the time. That zombie isn't much of a threat if he doesn't have a head.
As far as magazine capacity goes, 7 in the mag, 1 in the chamber, with 10 more on the bandalier sling, and 5 slugs on the buttstock carrier. I figure If I get through all those rounds, I'm in some serious shit. Time to call in an air strike.
When it absolutely, positively, has to be killed quickly, grab the 12 guage.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 8:24:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dace:
As departments are moving away from shotgun, it made me start wondering where a shotgun begins to fail in the self defence roll.




I only grab the 870 on Mountain lion and vicious dog calls now.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:17:20 AM EDT
Slugs will increase the range of the shotgun. Up to a hundred meters usually.

My Mossberg 500 with 18.5 inch barrel isn't much longer than my M4 with 16 inch barrel, and stock at the third (middle of 6) position.

Buckshot doesn't really spread that much. I've been able to keep 8 of the 9 pellets of Federal Tactical on a paper plate at 15-20 meters.

Now they don't have the ammo capacity, and are a bit sloer to reload (though you can reload on the go). 8 rounds might be enough, unless you are in a city and end up in the middle of a shootout between the local crips and bloods, or misfits and hells angels. Then 8 is definately not enough.

Even slugs don't penetrate body armor that well. But even if it's stopped a slug will surely cause the criminal some pain and distract him long enough to get that second shot through an unarmored area.

I'd much rather use an M4 or M16 against a small target, say a criminal behind a hostage.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:21:10 AM EDT
At close range a shotgun with the right ammo can shoot right through drywall. Which means if you load up with 3" Magnum 00 buck rounds, any firing inside the house can send pellets through one or more interior walls. Useful at times, but can be dangerous if your kids have a room in the line of fire.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:23:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 5:24:44 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]



There is probably no other gun more PC, or socially acceptable for use as a home defense/ self defense weapon.





You guys come on here and state how it is so powerful it can clear a room, blow holes in bad guys, it's a short range weapon, etc..


then, you try and claim it doesn't overpenetrate, it can shoot at least 100 yards and it's very PC in court.


which is it? The Big Bad Wolf, or Little Bo Peep?
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:25:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:38:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Eclipse:
At close range a shotgun with the right ammo can shoot right through drywall. Which means if you load up with 3" Magnum 00 buck rounds, any firing inside the house can send pellets through one or more interior walls. Useful at times, but can be dangerous if your kids have a room in the line of fire.



Please name any common cartridge that will not penetrate drywall.

If you miss with your 12ga, .223, 7.62, .45, .40, 9mm, .38, .357 inside the house there is an excelent chance that that the bullet / pellets will be exiting the exterior of your home, not just the next room.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:40:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 5:41:16 AM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By Tin_Star:
There is probably no other gun more PC, or socially acceptable for use as a home defense/ self defense weapon.



Tin_Star this isn't just directed at you but I see this mantality alot on this board and just can't understand it.
What the fuck is wrong with some people? Who gives two fucking shits if it's more PC!! So fucking what, if it's not the best fucking tool for the job then don't fucking use it. I don't care what you choose to use, I'm all for using an SBR as a HD weapon and I do. If you want to use a shotgun, use it becuase you can use it better then you can use any other gun not because it's the most PC one you have, if yer gunna pick a weapon that is already less then ideal for the job, pickit because yer the baddest motherfucker on the planet with it. Not cuz the DA might not charge you because the gun doesn't look evil. When yer ass is on the line, whats PC to someone else should not, better not be a factor in your choice to pick the weapon you are going to defend your fucking life with.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:52:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 5:56:18 AM EDT by Makarov]
Shotgun Shortcomings:

Firepower (3-8 rounds-max) ((typically))

Effective Range (but beyond shotgun range it probably isn't "self-defense" anyway )

That said, the Rem. 870 plays a critical part of my family's home protection plan.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:00:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 9:21:35 AM EDT by bob-ar15]

Originally Posted By Grunteled:

Originally Posted By Eclipse:
At close range a shotgun with the right ammo can shoot right through drywall. Which means if you load up with 3" Magnum 00 buck rounds, any firing inside the house can send pellets through one or more interior walls. Useful at times, but can be dangerous if your kids have a room in the line of fire.



Please name any common cartridge that will not penetrate drywall.

If you miss with your 12ga, .223, 7.62, .45, .40, 9mm, .38, .357 inside the house there is an excelent chance that that the bullet / pellets will be exiting the exterior of your home, not just the next room.



Actually, 5.56/.223 penetration is fairly limited. It tends to fragment/tumble going through the first wall.

[Edited to add: See elaboration pg. 4.]
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:02:18 AM EDT
One potential defensive drawback of the shotgun is failure to aim. Contrary to 'scattergun' mythology, shotguns aren't point-and-shoot, they need to be aimed.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:03:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By olyarms:
They are big, as I tell every one who tells me their 870 is better for the home than a pistol try clearing your house with a full size shotgun. Go around the corner with out letting the shotgun lead. Now go with a pistol or even an ar with a 16" barrell. Both will perform better.

Shotgun would be great if your house was one big room.



A shotgun works fine around corners. If you pie around a corner correctly, you're standing back from the corner a few feet, not right next to it, so while your barrel leads it's not poking around the corner.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:09:17 AM EDT
Just about all shotgun ammo uses a wad. Both buck and slugs. This wad doesn't travel to the point of aim and in hunting and sport target scenarios it is usually ignored. In a LEO/Home defense situation where there can be multiple no-shoot targets and liabilities it cannot be ignored. Our recent quals showed the wad at 10 yards or less can penetrate the wallboard material used to support the targets.

In the hostage scenario taking that shot with your five year old daughter held at knifepoint the wad will almost certainly strike her. It will hit like a hammer blow. You want to take that chance? Test your ammo on the range next time against light wallboard at thirty feet or less. Then tell yourself if you want to take that shot.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:10:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bob-ar15:

Originally Posted By Grunteled:

Originally Posted By Eclipse:
At close range a shotgun with the right ammo can shoot right through drywall. Which means if you load up with 3" Magnum 00 buck rounds, any firing inside the house can send pellets through one or more interior walls. Useful at times, but can be dangerous if your kids have a room in the line of fire.



Please name any common cartridge that will not penetrate drywall.

If you miss with your 12ga, .223, 7.62, .45, .40, 9mm, .38, .357 inside the house there is an excelent chance that that the bullet / pellets will be exiting the exterior of your home, not just the next room.



Actually, 5.56/.223 penetration is fairly limited. It tends to fragment/tumble going through the first wall.



No actually it doesn't. Read more.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:11:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bob-ar15:
One potential defensive drawback of the shotgun is failure to aim. Contrary to 'scattergun' mythology, shotguns aren't point-and-shoot, they need to be aimed.



Contrary to non-scattergun shooter mythology, all the shotgunners I know do aim.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:13:08 AM EDT
Where does it fail?

- Range
- Precision
- Weight of Ammo
- Small Magazine
- Short Stroking Under Stress for Pump Actions
- High Order of FTF/FTEs for Semi Autos
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:20:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By Tin_Star:
There is probably no other gun more PC, or socially acceptable for use as a home defense/ self defense weapon.



Tin_Star this isn't just directed at you but I see this mantality alot on this board and just can't understand it.
What the fuck is wrong with some people? Who gives two fucking shits if it's more PC!! So fucking what, if it's not the best fucking tool for the job then don't fucking use it. I don't care what you choose to use, I'm all for using an SBR as a HD weapon and I do. If you want to use a shotgun, use it becuase you can use it better then you can use any other gun not because it's the most PC one you have, if yer gunna pick a weapon that is already less then ideal for the job, pickit because yer the baddest motherfucker on the planet with it. Not cuz the DA might not charge you because the gun doesn't look evil. When yer ass is on the line, whats PC to someone else should not, better not be a factor in your choice to pick the weapon you are going to defend your fucking life with.




While I'm not as worked up on the issue I agree with this. The shotgun does not FAIL at self defense. It simply has some limitations that other weapons don't have. There are scenarios, perhaps extreamely unlikely, that would make it less than ideal. The real factor though to me seems to be this: Do you know that shotgun like you know the drive to work? Do you use it on a regular basis and feel like it's an extension of you when you use it? Do you enjoy shooting it and improving your skill with it? If so, then it's the right weapon for you. A carbine that you don't use much and find yourself fiddeling with when you do is not the right choice.

For me.... My shotgun rarely leaves the safe. It's something I own but don't get too excited about shooting. I could easily see myself forgeting to operate the safety, or rack the slide under stress. I don't know it's pattern real well. In short.... I don't train with it, so I'm not using it when my life depends on it. DA aside there are two guns in my house that will be used. My 9mm or my 5.56 carbine. Both of which I know well, I can operate with my eyes closed and I trust to function from thousands of rounds of trial.

A wrongful death suit will not hinge on your choice of firearm. There is an outside chance it could affect the judgement but I've not seen ANY confirmed case yet where a righteous shoot resulted in a judgement solely because of the weapon used. The same goes for conviction in criminal court. I know of one instance where a full auto weapon was used and that was the stated basis for taking the man to trial but he was aquitted, all be it a great personal expense. Still, he is alive today, and it was the weapon he had availible.

That gets trotted out a lot but I have never seen anyone present a case where it was shown to end in a conviction because the wrong looking gun was used.

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:20:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By bob-ar15:

Originally Posted By Grunteled:

Originally Posted By Eclipse:
At close range a shotgun with the right ammo can shoot right through drywall. Which means if you load up with 3" Magnum 00 buck rounds, any firing inside the house can send pellets through one or more interior walls. Useful at times, but can be dangerous if your kids have a room in the line of fire.



Please name any common cartridge that will not penetrate drywall.

If you miss with your 12ga, .223, 7.62, .45, .40, 9mm, .38, .357 inside the house there is an excelent chance that that the bullet / pellets will be exiting the exterior of your home, not just the next room.



Actually, 5.56/.223 penetration is fairly limited. It tends to fragment/tumble going through the first wall.



No actually it doesn't. Read more.



Thank you.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:22:00 AM EDT
I'd say capacity
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:22:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 6:23:51 AM EDT by PBIR]

Originally Posted By DarkNite:
Where does it fail?

- Range
- Precision
- Weight of Ammo
- Small Magazine
- Short Stroking Under Stress for Pump Actions
- High Order of FTF/FTEs for Semi Autos






The cuban paratroopers aren't coming. The shotgun has more than enough rounds in the tube, range, accuracy, and reliability to defend as long as you train with it like you would any other weapon.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:22:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DarkNite:
Where does it fail?

- Range
- Precision
- Weight of Ammo
- Small Magazine
- Short Stroking Under Stress for Pump Actions
- High Order of FTF/FTEs for Semi Autos



+
Slow follow-up shots
Worse terminal ballistics than rifle rounds
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:24:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:

Worse terminal ballistics than rifle rounds



Elaborate please, cite data.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:28:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PBIR:
The cuban paratroopers aren't coming. The shotgun has more than enough rounds in the tube, range, accuracy, and reliability to defend as long as you train with it like you would any other weapon.

The hell they aren't!!!

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:30:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Grunteled:

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By bob-ar15:

Originally Posted By Grunteled:

Originally Posted By Eclipse:
At close range a shotgun with the right ammo can shoot right through drywall. Which means if you load up with 3" Magnum 00 buck rounds, any firing inside the house can send pellets through one or more interior walls. Useful at times, but can be dangerous if your kids have a room in the line of fire.



Please name any common cartridge that will not penetrate drywall.

If you miss with your 12ga, .223, 7.62, .45, .40, 9mm, .38, .357 inside the house there is an excelent chance that that the bullet / pellets will be exiting the exterior of your home, not just the next room.



Actually, 5.56/.223 penetration is fairly limited. It tends to fragment/tumble going through the first wall.



No actually it doesn't. Read more.



Thank you.



I should actually clarify that, because it is partialy true, the round has more of a chance of fragmenting and starting totumble after going through that first wall, but that doesn't mean that it still won't cause injury after going through that first wall.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:34:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jor-el:
Just about all shotgun ammo uses a wad. Both buck and slugs. This wad doesn't travel to the point of aim and in hunting and sport target scenarios it is usually ignored. In a LEO/Home defense situation where there can be multiple no-shoot targets and liabilities it cannot be ignored. Our recent quals showed the wad at 10 yards or less can penetrate the wallboard material used to support the targets.

In the hostage scenario taking that shot with your five year old daughter held at knifepoint the wad will almost certainly strike her. It will hit like a hammer blow. You want to take that chance? Test your ammo on the range next time against light wallboard at thirty feet or less. Then tell yourself if you want to take that shot.




Hmmm some ass left a bunch of foam heads laying around at the range last week and I picked them up since yer supossed to police yer own trash and take it out with you. While I realise the density of a foam head is not the same as a human head and it wouldn't be to scientific because of that, I think we can come up with a little experiment......
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