Where does a shotgun fail in the self defense mode? - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Where does a shotgun fail in the self defense mode? (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 12/20/2005 6:37:59 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
...

Follow up shots are slow.

...

This is the deal-breaker for me, all else being equal (and it certainly isn't IMHO).

Anyone who trains for one and only one assailant and expects/anticipates a "one-shot stop" is IMHO setting himself up to be killed defending life, family, and home. I won't even address the "family member as hostage/shield" issue - Old_Painless addresses that very graphically and very well in his BOT threads.

FWIW, I was a "shotgun for HD" zealot most of my life. A lot of reading here and elsewhere forced me to reconsider... and a couple of tactical courses changed my mind forever. YMMV, of course.

Posted: 12/20/2005 6:44:28 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
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At close range a shotgun with the right ammo can shoot right through drywall. Which means if you load up with 3" Magnum 00 buck rounds, any firing inside the house can send pellets through one or more interior walls. Useful at times, but can be dangerous if your kids have a room in the line of fire.

Please name any common cartridge that will not penetrate drywall.

If you miss with your 12ga, .223, 7.62, .45, .40, 9mm, .38, .357 inside the house there is an excelent chance that that the bullet / pellets will be exiting the exterior of your home, not just the next room.

Actually, 5.56/.223 penetration is fairly limited. It tends to fragment/tumble going through the first wall.

No actually it doesn't. Read more.

Thank you.

I should actually clarify that, because it is partialy true, the round has more of a chance of fragmenting and starting totumble after going through that first wall, but that doesn't mean that it still won't cause injury after going through that first wall.

Old Painless did that one and two things were noted. They didn't frag even after multiple walls AND the flight path became wild as it flattened out and tumbled. This was not scientific but obviously the effect is not predictable and thus can't be relied on.

The badguy IS your backstop. Don't miss.

Posted: 12/20/2005 6:49:10 AM EDT

[#3]

I love my shotty.

The problem with most people is they don't know
simple shotgun tactics, or, how to employ it.

Shoot 2, load two. Shoot 1, load one.

You have to keep feeding the piggy and creating
angles with movement.

Most situations, an M4 is vastly superior
to a shotgun, but, you don't have to pay
1K +/- for a Mossy 500, either.

If a shotgun is your tool, take classes to
learn the advantages and limitations of the weapon.

Many times a shotgun is the only authorized longarm
for security personnel.

Just like any tool...You can complain about it, or learn how
to maximize it's potential.

Alot is said about overpenetration, etc, with good reason,
but if I'm employing a weapon to defend my loved ones,
overpenetration is the last thing I'm worried about.
I have buck and slugs on my sidesaddle.

I had some dumb chick in my CCW class say that
you should load #7-8 shot as your first shell in a shotty
for defense purposes in court.

I turned to her and told her that the only thing that would
be good for is if she was worried about her home getting invaded by little
birds. (Thanks for the line, OP)

That sparked a spirited debate with the regular shotgun myths.

It's a shotgun...Not a magic wand.

Posted: 12/20/2005 6:57:39 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
Quoted:
...

Follow up shots are slow.

...

This is the deal-breaker for me, all else being equal (and it certainly isn't IMHO).

Anyone who trains for one and only one assailant and expects/anticipates a "one-shot stop" is IMHO setting himself up to be killed defending life, family, and home. I won't even address the "family member as hostage/shield" issue - Old_Painless addresses that very graphically and very well in his BOT threads.

FWIW, I was a "shotgun for HD" zealot most of my life. A lot of reading here and elsewhere forced me to reconsider... and a couple of tactical courses changed my mind forever. YMMV, of course.

Follow up shots are not that slow.

Yes, an M4 is faster. Hands down,
but a trained shotgun user can engage multiple targets
very quickly.....I'd venture to say quickly enough.

I've been to tactical courses too

As for the human shield thing....*meh*

I'd bet 90% of the people on this board wouldn't
trust themselves to make some bad-ass Dirty Harry
headshot if thier wife/kids/etc were at stake at most ranges.
with any weapon.

practice this sort of shot usually about twice a month at
the range......I don't think I'd trust myself to make that shot, but,
I'm working on it.

Posted: 12/20/2005 6:59:33 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
At close range a shotgun with the right ammo can shoot right through drywall. Which means if you load up with 3" Magnum 00 buck rounds, any firing inside the house can send pellets through one or more interior walls. Useful at times, but can be dangerous if your kids have a room in the line of fire.

Please name any common cartridge that will not penetrate drywall.

If you miss with your 12ga, .223, 7.62, .45, .40, 9mm, .38, .357 inside the house there is an excelent chance that that the bullet / pellets will be exiting the exterior of your home, not just the next room.

Actually, 5.56/.223 penetration is fairly limited. It tends to fragment/tumble going through the first wall.

No actually it doesn't. Read more.

Thank you.

I should actually clarify that, because it is partialy true, the round has more of a chance of fragmenting and starting totumble after going through that first wall, but that doesn't mean that it still won't cause injury after going through that first wall.

Old Painless did that one and two things were noted. They didn't frag even after multiple walls AND the flight path became wild as it flattened out and tumbled. This was not scientific but obviously the effect is not predictable and thus can't be relied on.

The badguy IS your backstop. Don't miss.

Forgot all about that BoT.... I will say htough that some experimants have shown some fragmentation, or at elast mention was made of it. But it doesn't really matter because as you said, the BG is the backstop.

I just wish people would stop with the this is more PC crap and the comments like that. Use what you are the most capable with, get some serious training in how to fight with a gun(I don't care how long one has been shooting, if you haven't learned to FIGHT with a a gun, you need to learn), develop the proper mindset, develop a plan and actually practice that plan with yer family if you have a wife and kids.There are more productive things to do then worry about IF/WHAT some DA or lawyer is going to say about yer choice in weapon to defend yourself with.

Posted: 12/20/2005 7:04:52 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Worse terminal ballistics than rifle rounds

Elaborate please, cite data.

Read up in the IWBA journal, go to Tactical Forums and do a search. Read up on the topic of wound ballistics and you will find what I said to be true.

Alas, some of the sources, like the IWBA journals, are found only in that antiquated place, the library.

Posted: 12/20/2005 7:07:49 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
At close range a shotgun with the right ammo can shoot right through drywall. Which means if you load up with 3" Magnum 00 buck rounds, any firing inside the house can send pellets through one or more interior walls. Useful at times, but can be dangerous if your kids have a room in the line of fire.

Please name any common cartridge that will not penetrate drywall.

If you miss with your 12ga, .223, 7.62, .45, .40, 9mm, .38, .357 inside the house there is an excelent chance that that the bullet / pellets will be exiting the exterior of your home, not just the next room.

Actually, 5.56/.223 penetration is fairly limited. It tends to fragment/tumble going through the first wall.

No actually it doesn't. Read more.

Thank you.

I should actually clarify that, because it is partialy true, the round has more of a chance of fragmenting and starting totumble after going through that first wall, but that doesn't mean that it still won't cause injury after going through that first wall.

Old Painless did that one and two things were noted. They didn't frag even after multiple walls AND the flight path became wild as it flattened out and tumbled. This was not scientific but obviously the effect is not predictable and thus can't be relied on.

The badguy IS your backstop. Don't miss.

Forgot all about that BoT.... I will say htough that some experimants have shown some fragmentation, or at elast mention was made of it. But it doesn't really matter because as you said, the BG is the backstop.

I just wish people would stop with the this is more PC crap and the comments like that. Use what you are the most capable with, get some serious training in how to fight with a gun(I don't care how long one has been shooting, if you haven't learned to FIGHT with a a gun, you need to learn), develop the proper mindset, develop a plan and actually practice that plan with yer family if you have a wife and kids.There are more productive things to do then worry about IF/WHAT some DA or lawyer is going to say about yer choice in weapon to defend yourself with.

+ 11ebenty billion.

Or just post on ARFCOM.

Hey dude...I'm up in Menasha, btw.

Posted: 12/20/2005 7:09:43 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Worse terminal ballistics than rifle rounds

Elaborate please, cite data.

Read up in the IWBA journal, go to Tactical Forums and do a search. Read up on the topic of wound ballistics and you will find what I said to be true.

Alas, some of the sources, like the IWBA journals, are found only in that antiquated place, the library.

I just wrote a shotgun training course for my company.

It's amzing how much information you can get from google regarding
ballistics of a shotgun.

(You're right, btw)

Posted: 12/20/2005 7:11:38 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Forgot all about that BoT.... I will say htough that some experimants have shown some fragmentation, or at elast mention was made of it. But it doesn't really matter because as you said, the BG is the backstop.

I just wish people would stop with the this is more PC crap and the comments like that. Use what you are the most capable with, get some serious training in how to fight with a gun(I don't care how long one has been shooting, if you haven't learned to FIGHT with a a gun, you need to learn), develop the proper mindset, develop a plan and actually practice that plan with yer family if you have a wife and kids.There are more productive things to do then worry about IF/WHAT some DA or lawyer is going to say about yer choice in weapon to defend yourself with.

Agreed.

Posted: 12/20/2005 7:27:56 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Where does it fail?

- Range
- Precision
- Weight of Ammo
- Small Magazine
- Short Stroking Under Stress for Pump Actions
- High Order of FTF/FTEs for Semi Autos

I have shot Browning Auto 5 as a teen (16 guage) and have one now (12 guage) and have NEVER had a FTF or FTE. I have had a pump action break while taking a shot at a Canadian goose once though. If 8 rounds is not enough you are NOT involved in a typical self defense situation. Range? Can someone find out how many justifiable self defense situations per year involve shooting over 75 feet? Precision? my father put slugs into pie plates at 50 yards consistently at the range. Shot guns are not perfect but the failings listed by most are non-existant.

Posted: 12/20/2005 7:31:23 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Hey dude...I'm up in Menasha, btw.

Shit man we should try and get together if you got the time.

Posted: 12/20/2005 7:39:21 AM EDT

[#12]

[ripley] Nuke the entire site from orbit, its the only way to be sure [/ripley]

Posted: 12/20/2005 7:44:36 AM EDT

[#13]

Range.

That's the only thing I don't like about it. That said, I prefer the Remington 870 for home defense and CQB type roles, even though I have an English standard shitload of money tied up in other weapons. My reason? I shoot and handle it better than ANY other weapon platform. I've trained/been trained with it, and it seems I've just been given a gift for the Remington 870. YMMV.

Posted: 12/20/2005 7:46:32 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Worse terminal ballistics than rifle rounds

At 300 yards? Yep.

In my living room? NO FUCKING WAY.

SG

Posted: 12/20/2005 7:47:13 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Worse terminal ballistics than rifle rounds

At 300 yards? Yep.

In my living room? NO FUCKING WAY.

SG

Guess again. Try reading more and posting less.

Posted: 12/20/2005 7:47:38 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Worse terminal ballistics than rifle rounds

At ~~300~~ 50 yards? Yep.

In my living room? NO FUCKING WAY.

SG

Posted: 12/20/2005 7:49:23 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Where does it fail?

- Range
- Precision
- Weight of Ammo
- Small Magazine
- Short Stroking Under Stress for Pump Actions
- High Order of FTF/FTEs for Semi Autos

I have shot Browning Auto 5 as a teen (16 guage) and have one now (12 guage) and have NEVER had a FTF or FTE. I have had a pump action break while taking a shot at a Canadian goose once though. If 8 rounds is not enough you are NOT involved in a typical self defense situation. Range? Can someone find out how many justifiable self defense situations per year involve shooting over 75 feet? Precision? my father put slugs into pie plates at 50 yards consistently at the range. Shot guns are not perfect but the failings listed by most are non-existant.

On the ammo issue:
1. We shoot till the threat is stopped, that could mean 1 round, but more likely it's going to mean more then that. The only time you have enough ammo is when the shooting is over and the threat is stopped. Until then you don't ever have enough ammo.

2. We don't know how many friends mr. asshat has with or in the area. Untill we know Mr. asshole is the only threat, we must act as though he is not to do otherwise is foolish and potentialy deadly.

There is no such thing as a typical self defense situation. There is nothing typical about being in a situation where you have to make the decision to end a human life and then very possibly follow through with that decision and take that life. There is nothing typical about it.

Posted: 12/20/2005 7:49:48 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

. If 8 rounds is not enough you are NOT involved in a typical self defense situation..

Typical? No. Possible? Sure.

Posted: 12/20/2005 7:54:50 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Worse terminal ballistics than rifle rounds

At 300 yards? Yep.

In my living room? NO FUCKING WAY.

SG

Guess again. Try reading more and posting less.

Now this is contrary to everything I've read, IWBA and otherwise, concerning terminal ballistics.

.308 in 155 grain TAP is probably VERY close and may be better than a charge of 00 buck. There is NO 5.56 ammo that comes close to a 12 gauge shot, though, 77 grain OTM or anything else you can dig up.

Load up with a 3 inch magnum of #1 Buck and the contest is over (though I wouldn't recommend that particular loading).

It's all moot as long as you put your shot where it counts.

Posted: 12/20/2005 7:58:19 AM EDT

[#20]

Where does it best fit?

In front of the jury with your lawyer explaining you are a hunter not a killer looking for some action.

Tj

Posted: 12/20/2005 7:59:00 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:

. If 8 rounds is not enough you are NOT involved in a typical self defense situation..

Typical? No. Possible? Sure.

What I think is that by the time you are on round #5 if you have not made significant progress toward neutralizing your threat it is time to start moving to plan B even if that is to get to another firearm. I am talking about waking up to the bump-crash in the night here, not going into combat BTW. Also, shot gun is not the perfect weapon but most of these so-called shortcommings are silly.

Posted: 12/20/2005 7:59:30 AM EDT

[#22]

I've thought about using a shotgun for home defense. After AFCOMing for a while I will go with the AR15 platform or handgun (in my case a .45).

Someone posted recently, on another thread here, that he had concerns with the wad in a possible hostage type situation. This, with the spread of the pattern, was pretty much the clincher for me to go with the carbine platform. The Box of Truth shows the wad sometimes penetrating drywall.

Posted: 12/20/2005 8:01:03 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Where does it fail?

- Range
Actually a shotgun is fine for ranges out to about 50 yards. I'd seriously worry about pellet accountability after that though. I'd venture to say that most people in SD mode aren't going to be engageing multiple BGs at 300 meters.- Precision
- Weight of Ammo
This is a big myth. If a shotgun round is too heavy, go to the gym.
- Small Magazine
People seem to not mind 8+1 1911s Small magazine size is overcome by useing proper tactical reload proceedures.
- Short Stroking Under Stress for Pump Actions
You could say the same about any weapon. The weapon isn't malfunctioning. It's the user. If you don't train, any weapon you handle under stress is subject to user failure of some sort.
- High Order of FTF/FTEs for Semi Autos
This is why you don't use autoloaders....Which function just fine with most regular power loads.

I have shot Browning Auto 5 as a teen (16 guage) and have one now (12 guage) and have NEVER had a FTF or FTE. I have had a pump action break while taking a shot at a Canadian goose once though. If 8 rounds is not enough you are NOT involved in a typical self defense situation. Range? Can someone find out how many justifiable self defense situations per year involve shooting over 75 feet? Precision? my father put slugs into pie plates at 50 yards consistently at the range. Shot guns are not perfect but the failings listed by most are non-existant.

On the ammo issue:
1. We shoot till the threat is stopped, that could mean 1 round, but more likely it's going to mean more then that. The only time you have enough ammo is when the shooting is over and the threat is stopped. Until then you don't ever have enough ammo.

Proper tactics. Shoot one, load one. Tactical reloading.
2. We don't know how many friends mr. asshat has with or in the area. Untill we know Mr. asshole is the only threat, we must act as though he is not to do otherwise is foolish and potentialy deadly.

True. Never let your weapon shoot dry, and, always keep your head up. If you are unable to keep your weapon downrange, and, ready to engage and scan for threats while you reload, you need to train.
There is no such thing as a typical self defense situation. There is nothing typical about being in a situation where you have to make the decision to end a human life and then very possibly follow through with that decision and take that life. There is nothing typical about it.

True, but, one must be realistic about the battlespace you will be utilizeing the weapon in. If your battlespace with your long gun is your home and surroundings, it's much different that say......If you carry it as a trunk gun. If your out of home carry is a pistol, then, you'll need to think about battlespace conditions in other surroundings. This may've been what he meant.

Posted: 12/20/2005 8:08:41 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
I've thought about using a shotgun for home defense. After AFCOMing for a while I will go with the AR15 platform or handgun (in my case a .45).

Someone posted recently, on another thread here, that he had concerns with the wad in a possible hostage type situation. This, with the spread of the pattern, was pretty much the clincher for me to go with the carbine platform. The Box of Truth shows the wad sometimes penetrating drywall.

On the wad thing...even if it's like a hammer hitting someone, putting out an eye...etc, that's
a better alternative to me, than, say, having the BG drag off your wife.

Do you really have the confidence that in combat mode at 0200 in your PJs or less, you're going
to take a shot with your AR in a hostage situation?

If you do, great, but, don't delude yourself. If you think that's a likely eventuatlity, you
better train on that shot at close, and, max predicted distances based on your house size.

I respect your choice, but, remember you can get a nice shotty for 300 bucks or under, depending.

An AR's gonna run 3X that probably.

That said; My Bushy 16" HB Carbine is my night time weapon of choice

Posted: 12/20/2005 8:16:19 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

. If 8 rounds is not enough you are NOT involved in a typical self defense situation..

Typical? No. Possible? Sure.

What I think is that by the time you are on round #5 if you have not made significant progress toward neutralizing your threat it is time to start moving to plan B even if that is to get to another firearm. I am talking about waking up to the bump-crash in the night here, not going into combat BTW. Also, shot gun is not the perfect weapon but most of these so-called shortcommings are silly.

Yep. Also, consider taking cover and, tactical reloading at that point.
Yep. mindset and training will overcome most of a shotgun's weaknesses.

A shotgun isn't a magic wand. It's a shotgun. Most of it's precieved flaws are about as
ill-thought out as it's precieved strengths.

The reality is;

-It's a low cost alternative that can be customized pretty easially (Mossberg 500/90 series and, Remmy 870s)
-Depending on where you live, it's more palateable for a lawyer to say "Shotgun" than it is for the DA to question your use of an "assault rifle".
-It's a tool that has issues if not employed IAW sound tactics, mindset, and training, just like any other tool......Even an AR.

Posted: 12/20/2005 8:25:06 AM EDT

[#26]

I sometime suspect most people on the internet quote stats on shotguns but the real issue is they can't handle the recoil.

Posted: 12/20/2005 8:35:59 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I've thought about using a shotgun for home defense. After AFCOMing for a while I will go with the AR15 platform or handgun (in my case a .45).

Someone posted recently, on another thread here, that he had concerns with the wad in a possible hostage type situation. This, with the spread of the pattern, was pretty much the clincher for me to go with the carbine platform. The Box of Truth shows the wad sometimes penetrating drywall.

On the wad thing...even if it's like a hammer hitting someone, putting out an eye...etc, that's
a better alternative to me, than, say, having the BG drag off your wife.

Do you really have the confidence that in combat mode at 0200 in your PJs or less, you're going
to take a shot with your AR in a hostage situation?

If you do, great, but, don't delude yourself. If you think that's a likely eventuatlity, you
better train on that shot at close, and, max predicted distances based on your house size.

I respect your choice, but, remember you can get a nice shotty for 300 bucks or under, depending.

An AR's gonna run 3X that probably.

That said; My Bushy 16" HB Carbine is my night time weapon of choice

All things being equal I would rather shoot the rifle

I hear ya, there is a lot to be said for the cost factor

I'm with ya there

Posted: 12/20/2005 8:36:57 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
I sometime suspect most people on the internet quote stats on shotguns but the real issue is they can't handle the recoil.

Good stuff

Seriously, a lot of people have forgotten that this thread was addressing the "shortcomings" of a shotgun in HOME DEFENSE, not in some sort of "I'm going out and taking on the world" scenario where a carbine's firepower would be superior.

Posted: 12/20/2005 8:53:00 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
At close range a shotgun with the right ammo can shoot right through drywall. Which means if you load up with 3" Magnum 00 buck rounds, any firing inside the house can send pellets through one or more interior walls. Useful at times, but can be dangerous if your kids have a room in the line of fire.

Please name any common cartridge that will not penetrate drywall.

If you miss with your 12ga, .223, 7.62, .45, .40, 9mm, .38, .357 inside the house there is an excelent chance that that the bullet / pellets will be exiting the exterior of your home, not just the next room.

Actually, 5.56/.223 penetration is fairly limited. It tends to fragment/tumble going through the first wall.

No actually it doesn't. Read more.

Um - okay. I will endeavor to be more precise. Relevant references (at least those ready to hand) include:

New Jersey Division of Criminal Justice .223 wallboard penetration test

Robert, G. Law Enforcement general purpose shoulder fired weapons: Wounding effects of 5.56mm carbines compared with 12ga. shotguns and pistol caliber weapons using 10% ordnance gelatin. Police Marksman, July/August 1998

Hornady TAP Ammunition: Product Summary and General Performance Characteristics; available from Hornady Manufacturing

Black Hills Limited Penetration loads testing

Or, for that matter, statements from our very own AR15.com Ammo-Oracle.

To elaborate upon my statement:

5.56mm ball ammunition tends to significantly shed velocity, to begin to fragment, and to tumble upon passing through the two drywall partitions and intermediate insulation material of the average wall. Yes, it remains dangerous, but so does a sharp stick.

Penetration of interior walls is significantly less for the 5.56mm round than for the great majority of defensive handgun, shotgun, carbine, and rifle rounds. Shotgun birdshot is an exception

A variety of reduced-penetration 5.56mm rounds with very good exterior ballistic performance are commercially available - eg, Hornady Tap, Black Hills.

Is that better?...

Posted: 12/20/2005 8:53:48 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Quoted:
There is something to be said for racking the slide on an 870 however!

Regards,
Gary

What exactly does this do?

I tried it, and it seems to place a shotgun shell into that shooty thingy part of the gun, cool.

Posted: 12/20/2005 9:28:14 AM EDT

[#31]

#4 Buckshot fired from a rifled barrel makes a 4 foot diameter pattern at 10 meters. 27 pellets, not too big, but big enough - 8 rounds in the tube, more on the shotgun, nice and heavy.
Anybody else have amplified ear muffs next the bed? Anything you shoot indoors will deafen everyone inside.
Not too good for the neighbors, if you have any *real* close, not good for 'hostage' situations, but if you live alone....

Posted: 12/20/2005 9:30:46 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
... Anybody else have amplified ear muffs next the bed? ...

Posted: 12/20/2005 10:07:52 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
At close range a shotgun with the right ammo can shoot right through drywall. Which means if you load up with 3" Magnum 00 buck rounds, any firing inside the house can send pellets through one or more interior walls. Useful at times, but can be dangerous if your kids have a room in the line of fire.

Please name any common cartridge that will not penetrate drywall.

If you miss with your 12ga, .223, 7.62, .45, .40, 9mm, .38, .357 inside the house there is an excelent chance that that the bullet / pellets will be exiting the exterior of your home, not just the next room.

Actually, 5.56/.223 penetration is fairly limited. It tends to fragment/tumble going through the first wall.

No actually it doesn't. Read more.

Um - okay. I will endeavor to be more precise. Relevant references (at least those ready to hand) include:

New Jersey Division of Criminal Justice .223 wallboard penetration test

Robert, G. Law Enforcement general purpose shoulder fired weapons: Wounding effects of 5.56mm carbines compared with 12ga. shotguns and pistol caliber weapons using 10% ordnance gelatin. Police Marksman, July/August 1998

Hornady TAP Ammunition: Product Summary and General Performance Characteristics; available from Hornady Manufacturing

Black Hills Limited Penetration loads testing

Or, for that matter, statements from our very own AR15.com Ammo-Oracle.

To elaborate upon my statement:

5.56mm ball ammunition tends to significantly shed velocity, to begin to fragment, and to tumble upon passing through the two drywall partitions and intermediate insulation material of the average wall. Yes, it remains dangerous, but so does a sharp stick.

Penetration of interior walls is significantly less for the 5.56mm round than for the great majority of defensive handgun, shotgun, carbine, and rifle rounds. Shotgun birdshot is an exception

A variety of reduced-penetration 5.56mm rounds with very good exterior ballistic performance are commercially available - eg, Hornady Tap, Black Hills.

Is that better?...

I wasn't disagreeing with you at all. But the general statment you made was not exactly correct, that the reason I said read more.

Also TAP and BH ammo were not designed for "reduced penetration" they were designed for match use and the beter terminal ballsitics of them was just a luke more or less.

Posted: 12/20/2005 10:32:53 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Quoted:
... Anybody else have amplified ear muffs next the bed? ...

me, too, though I admit it's not likely I'll go fumbling for them unless I have ample time to prepare

Posted: 12/20/2005 7:12:25 PM EDT

[#35]

...in a safe????

Posted: 12/20/2005 7:35:01 PM EDT

[#36]

Where does a shotgun fail in the self defense mode?

In a French guy's bedroom.

Posted: 12/21/2005 4:23:15 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Where does a shotgun fail in the self defense mode?

It doesn't fail. Every weapon has it's pros and cons depending on the situation. A round or two of OO Buck will solve most home defense problems.

I love shotung and just got into them, to me they are very comfortable, simple, easy to work on, easy to load, and easy to fire.

Sounds like you've been training, and are comfortable with the shotgun.

So I was thinking of a shotgun in a sefl defence roll. As departments are moving away from shotgun, it made me start wondering where a shotgun begins to fail in the self defence roll.

Departments are moving away, because the rifle is more precise, penetrates armor, etc.

Is it in magazine capacity?
Average shotgun 5-8 rounds. Should take care of the situation.

Reloading time?
Practice.

Weight of ammunition?
Your talking about home defense. Not an assault in Baghdad.

That being said, I have a M4 and a Benelli M1S90 in the safe. Each has it's place. I like my M4 and can place my shots with the optic or the iron sights. I have a light mounted as well. But if I had to use my Benelli, I wouldn't feel outgunned. Use what you have and practice with it.

Posted: 12/21/2005 4:43:08 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Um - okay. I will endeavor to be more precise. Relevant references (at least those ready to hand) include:

New Jersey Division of Criminal Justice .223 wallboard penetration test

Robert, G. Law Enforcement general purpose shoulder fired weapons: Wounding effects of 5.56mm carbines compared with 12ga. shotguns and pistol caliber weapons using 10% ordnance gelatin. Police Marksman, July/August 1998

Hornady TAP Ammunition: Product Summary and General Performance Characteristics; available from Hornady Manufacturing

Black Hills Limited Penetration loads testing

Or, for that matter, statements from our very own AR15.com Ammo-Oracle.

To elaborate upon my statement:

5.56mm ball ammunition tends to significantly shed velocity, to begin to fragment, and to tumble upon passing through the two drywall partitions and intermediate insulation material of the average wall. Yes, it remains dangerous, but so does a sharp stick.

Penetration of interior walls is significantly less for the 5.56mm round than for the great majority of defensive handgun, shotgun, carbine, and rifle rounds. Shotgun birdshot is an exception

A variety of reduced-penetration 5.56mm rounds with very good exterior ballistic performance are commercially available - eg, Hornady Tap, Black Hills.

Is that better?...

I wasn't disagreeing with you at all. But the general statment you made was not exactly correct, that the reason I said read more.

Also TAP and BH ammo were not designed for "reduced penetration" they were designed for match use and the beter terminal ballsitics of them was just a luke more or less.

Interesting. This was a 14" barrel and 55 to 69gr bullets. Looks like the 55 sails on through where the others do begin to frag. I need to get working on a 69gr load. My rifle hates the 75s.

Here's the whole test:
www.njpdresources.org/pdfs/wallboard_test.pdf

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