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Posted: 12/18/2005 12:00:49 PM EDT
Who all has actually drawn their CCW or Home Defense weapon in real life, tell some stories!
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:18:02 PM EDT
Close a couple of times in civilian life , but didn't have the sights on the guy. Now,when I was in the 'Corps,that was another story.
I was manning a main gate at a Naval Weapons Station outside of Charleston SC and a contractor had come through the gat eand pulled over to sign in at the office where all contractors sign in. Well,apparently his co-worker was drunk and decided he was gonna steal the truck and leave. He got into the drivers side and backed up running into a couple of cars . He finally turned the truck around and was going for the gate on the opposite side. I had already called the Sgt. of the guard and had recieved orders from the Captain of the guard to stop him "with what ever means necessary including deadly force ". He was endangering people's lives and as I said this was a naval weapons station,we're armed for a reason. Anyway,when he gets lined up to go out the gate ( it had been closed since 6:00 pm the night before ) ,I've got my M-16 and I'm telling him to stop. He is yelling and saying he's leaving and all that. Well , he backs his truck up like he's getting ready to ram through ( it wouldn't have been possible ,the gates had hydraulic barriers that swung across the road and wieghed about 3,000 lbs ). I was ordered by the Capt. of the guard to stop him with any means necessary so I lined him up with my sights and was waiting for him too charge ahead. He starts slowly going forward when he sees I'm getting ready to shoot him and then stops well short of the gate.The Sgt. of the guard finally gets there and we take him into custody. He was turned over to the MP's and they turned him over to the police.
It's weird,it takes longer to type it than it took to happen.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:22:02 PM EDT
cheeks shot a guy in the neck two times (1" group, BTW) in a parking lot. Of course, he posted the tale of the escapade like 15 minutes after it happened, and never mentioned a word about it afterward.

Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:22:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
All the "Draw Down!" comments.... Who actually has?



Vietnam-1968 (on a fellow Marine)
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:23:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DzlBenz:
cheeks shot a guy in the neck two times (1" group, BTW) in a parking lot. Of course, he posted the tale of the escapade like 15 minutes after it happened, and never mentioned a word about it afterward.




Ahh, I'm guessin' it wasn't in the paper, either, right?
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:23:40 PM EDT
I hurt someone's feelings once
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:24:04 PM EDT
Don't forget the guy at the carwash.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:25:51 PM EDT
I drew down on my cat once. She just gave me a "ya....right" look and walked away to do a cat thing.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:26:54 PM EDT
About once a week on average. Sometimes a little more depending upon district. Haven't shot anyone since 1992 though.

Off duty I've only drawn twice. Both times in highway rest stops. One Outside San Antonio and one up by Childress. Both were robbery attempts.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:27:37 PM EDT
I watched my grandfather shoot a guy in an Albertsons parking lot in Bend, Oregon, on my moms birthday.

My grandfather, who was handicapped, and I were looking for a parking spot. This guy was parked in one of the handicapped spots, halfway parked in the spot, halfway in the road, and wouldnt move. My grandfather honked the horn of the pickup, and the guy gave him the finger. My grandfather returned the favor, and was going to back up and go find a different spot, and the guy got out of his car with a gun in his hand. The guy pointed the gun at us in the truck, and my grandfather shot him twice from the truck, in the chest.

This happened about 10 years ago, when I was still a kid. We were supposed to meet my grandmother, mom and the rest of the family at an awesome chinese resturaunt in Bend for her birthday, and we had to explain later that night why we didnt show.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:28:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wetidlerjr:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
All the "Draw Down!" comments.... Who actually has?



Vietnam-1968 (on a fellow Marine)

I'm very curious but know better than to ask for more info than volunteered in situations like this.


My one and only time I was probably wrong to have done so, but I'd do it again.

Taco bell drive through really late at night, Cars in front of me and behind me, No where to go or way to get out. Jackass behind me is honking and screaming at us all to hurry up, I turn my attention away for half a second and hear a car door behind me slam. OH SHIT, I check the mirrors and see a hunched down figure charging my truck. I take half a second to ensure I cant jump a curb to get away, decide I can't and draw, I lean back (away from drivers door) to make a smaller target and get full reach, and level just above the bottom of the window. I see hands come up, they are empty, and the hands are followed by the face of a drunk friend of mine who did it it all to be funny. Jackass almost caught 3 rounds of .45
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:30:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
I hurt someone's feelings once




Was it Taxman???
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:30:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jmzd4:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
I hurt someone's feelings once




Was it Taxman???



no
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:32:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By jmzd4:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
I hurt someone's feelings once




Was it Taxman???



no




then what Mod?
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:33:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By jmzd4:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
I hurt someone's feelings once




Was it Taxman???



no



Was it a Liberal Democrat? It's easy to do you know.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:33:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:

Originally Posted By wetidlerjr:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
All the "Draw Down!" comments.... Who actually has?



Vietnam-1968 (on a fellow Marine)



I'm very curious but know better than to ask for more info than volunteered in situations like this...



Nothing that is mysterious. A man was drunk and running around with a 1911A1 and myself and the Duty NCO had to go find him.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:34:16 PM EDT
I have a rather interesting story from a GlockTalker that occurred here in FL several years ago. I guess since it's already been posted here and there several times, I could try to find it and let you guys read it again.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:34:17 PM EDT
The only "war" story my dad tells me is the time he almost killed a pointman.

Long story short, my dad was taking a nap in the jungle, when he awoke and didn't know whether his team had forgotten him or not. He started to hear some noise up ahead, and saw the familiar VC Hat and PJs....my dad readied his .45 at the figures head at it started slowly creeping towards him. He figured that the VC had been following his squad and they had finally caught up, the figure slowly started coming closer and closer to my dads posistion. When he was close to damn near stepping on him, he looked down at my father, my father looked up and him and realized it was just one of those Pathfinders working in conjunction with another team.



It probally has some errors in it because its been 5 or 6 years since my dads shared that story with me.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:40:15 PM EDT
At an ATM drive up machine once. 2 "misguided yewts" asked for the cash I had just drawn from the machine. They were both sitting on the curb near the machine. I drove up and noticed them, so I placed my 1911 on my lap.
When I got the money out, they had gotten close enough to draw knives and ask for the cash. I picked my pistol up out of my lap and said "Git, assholes" The sight of nothing but ass and elbows was funny. I resisted the urge to put one in the ground near them and see if they had a higher gear.

When i reported it to the bank the next day, they reveiwed the tape and gave it to the local LE. After that, whenever I came into the bank, the tellers would snicker and wink.
One of them told me the tape was played at the Christmas party as part of a loop they made of antics at the ATM's the previous year.

An LE buddy of mine said it would have been ruled a good shoot and nothing would have been done about it. I just figured the aftermath would best be avoided. Besides, the look of shear terror on their faces was enough for me.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:40:33 PM EDT
I was a brand new Lieutenant, right out of college with my liberal arts degree. It was my turn to be Officer-of-the-Day, which means wearing a formal uniform, getting a car and spending the night patrolling the base, inspecting the mess hall and barracks, etc. I was issued an armband, a forty-five and a magazine with five rounds, which had to go on the opposite side of my belt and not be inserted without a good reason. (Sort of like Barney Fife with his bullet in his pocket.) The 1911 was so worn that I remembering wondering if it would work.

Around midnight, I'm driving through a part of the base that's deserted, because the unit quartered there is deployed. I notice a guy climbing out a window with an armload of stuff. He puts it in a car, then goes back in the window. I park and watch him make a couple more round trips as my steel-trap mind reaches the conclusion that he's a burglar. I load the rode-hard-and-put-away-wet .45 and go wait by the window. I was wondering if he was alone, what he was armed with and if my pistol would work.

When he climbs out, I point the pistol at him and say "Freeze". He does, just like in the movies. I remember being very surprised that he didn't "fight or flee".

Unfortunately, that was as far as I had thought things through. We stood there in the dark looking at each other for a long time while I tried to figure out what to do next. How could I drive the car? Hmmm, maybe I could have him drive while I kept him covered... Nah.

Finally, I hiked him down the sidewalk until we came to a pay phone.

I didn't know the MP's number.

I keep him covered while I try to explain the situation to the operator. By now my arms are so tired from holding up the beater pistol that I'm switching hands, resting it on my hip, etc. I can see the wheels turning in my burglar's head.

I finally get the MP's on the phone. They ask where I am.

I don't know.

I spent quite a bit of time describing the surroundings. Big oak trees, brick buildings.

I finally hike my burglar another block, read the street signs, then hike back to the phone. The MP's come and get us.

When we get to the Provost Marshall's office, every available MP is standing there grinning. They've all come to see Barney Fife.

As the paperwork is being filled out, more MP's bring in a bunch of guys who'd been in a fight in the Casual Company barracks. They handcuff this huge guy to a chair. There's lots of shouting and confusion. The huge guy's wife jumps on an MP's back and bites a hunk out of his neck. Another MP hits the back of her head a night stick. It sounds like a baseball bat on a coconut. She drops like she's been hit by lightning. The big guy stands up and picks up the chair he's handcuffed to. The MP's go to work on him. Everyone piles in. I'm standing there with my mouth open. Some bird colonel grabs the back of my collar and pulls me up against a wall. He says "You and I are just going to stand here and watch this."

It only lasted a few seconds. I can't believe the MP's didn't kill anybody with those sticks. They were bouncing them off skulls so hard that blood was splattering, and I got the dry-cleaning bill to prove it.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:41:42 PM EDT
My uncle tried to beat me to death when I was 14. Got to the browning shotgun and he backed off, should have killed him then.

5 years later he is chasing me down the hiway with a gun out the window, trying to get a bead. I get to the house, grab the AR and put 2 just over his hood. He left. I was arrested for attempted murder. Charges were dropped.

6 years ago a black man jumped in the passenger window on my wife. I pulled the HK USP. He realized the err of his ways and ran of screaming do not kill me. These are the cliff note versions.


Bob
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:49:34 PM EDT
I drew down on a domestic goose that charged me. Ended up firing and killing it.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:50:02 PM EDT
No, but a U.S. Forest Service LEO has done it to me.

For what it's worth, I found out later that she nearly did the same to one of my LEO friends. He can't WAIT for her to make the 1.5 hour trip down in to California's Central Valley. "There's four copies, press hard" he says.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:50:05 PM EDT
Here it is. Very long read, but seems worth it to me. The was cut and pasted from Glocktalk, so there are replies and questions from others asked of the "drawer-downer" and replies from him to them. I think this is worthwhile and one can learn many things from this guys mistakes as well as what he did correctly.

A guy and his lady friend are walking down a street after eating a nice steak dinner on Friday night. The area is busy and the only parking available was a nice walk away, not a problem on a beautiful October night.

So the guy, who has had a lot of firearms courses notices a van slowly driving the other direction on the street. The guy notices the deep gurgling sound of the exhaust, but really doesn't think much of it. Then he notices a couple of thugs crossing the street; said GTer is uncomfortable because he and his lady friend seemed to get too much attention from the guys crossing the street. One of those "it just doesn't feel right" type of things.

So the couple continue walking toward the parking garage, when the GTer notices the gurgling sound of that van slowly passing by them. Then the GTer, who regularly uses windows to watch his 6, notices the two thugs that crossed the street coming up behind them. One of the thugs is clearly holding his right hand suspiciously around his belt buckle area. Then said GTer notices the van stopped on the side of the street just ahead and the 2 thugs behind them are getting closer.

GTer tells his lady friend that they are going to duck into any open business they see, but there were not any available. Just as they were coming up on the van, 2 ****-eaters jump out of the van and block the sidewalk. Gter draws his Kimber .45, and moves to engage the thugs 5 feet behind them; the intention was to go to low ready and size up the situation. The two from the van did not appear to be armed and one behind them was already spotted as armed.

So GTer turns and starts to shout at the two thugs on foot when the armed one begins to pull a revolver (SW .38 special). GTer, had the jump because the thugs in the rear did not see him remove his pistol from his daytimer style carry (they had been where alcohol was sold, but he did not drink).

The GTer always, always, always shoots failure drill at the range and trains at least twice a month.

As the BG #1 pulls the pistol, the GTer puts two rounds COM and moves up and puts one in the eye area. There was absolutely no reaction to the chest shots in the BG. The second thug turns to his falling comrade and tries to get his pistol, as GTer puts 2 slugs in his COM and one in the side of the head, GTer didn't know he hit BG #2 with the first 2 rounds. The second thug didn't have time to get turned around to face GTer, and didn't go down from the two to the chest, so said GTer puts one is the side of his head. Both third shots, at 5 feet, were very messy. Luckily for GTer, the second thug did get his hands on the pistol (a fact that would greatly help him in the future). So after the two in the rear were neutralized, GTer turned to check on the two from the van who had started moving his way. When GTer turned to engage them, gun at low ready, they turned and ran to the van got in and the van sped off.

The thugs were linked to other rapes and 2 abductions of similar method, and had sheets as long as your arm. (funny how that wasn't admissable in court) The thugs from the van looked more pissed than scared, and GTer would encounter them later in life. Turns out they were members of the Gangsta Disciples. The Gangsta's don't take lightly to seeing their bro.s being shot down in the street.

The aftermath: Said GTer was charged with manslaughter (the jury was given other options too) and was found not guilty by a jury of his peers. Deliberations took less than 3 hours. Some of the city council PERSONS believed that failure drill represented too much force and GTer should have not made the last shot on the guys. Of course, if he had not made the third shots in the failure drill, the thugs would be alive today. So city council PERSON, pressures the DA and viola, the decision is made to charge him.

The cost to GTer to stay out of prison was $18,000+. That works out to be $3k per shot, or $9k per bad guy.

The situation doesn't often end as well in his dreams, as it did in real time, but he never can quite get it behind him. He carries a strange sense of guilt.

The girlfriend that GTer was trying to protect, broke up with him 3 weeks later. She just never could get over it and could not understand the violent nature of his counterattack. She dumped him, which broke his heart, but she was a very good witness for his defense, and for that he is eternally grateful.

The follow up encounters (turns out during a trial, it isn't hard to get the home address of the defendant) with the Gangsta Disciples were a little better; and no charges were placed in those instances.

Sorry if GTer wasn't armed with and AK, but then they would never have picked us to attack.

The morals of the story: Live with what happened, or with what may have happened- his girlfriend being abducted..... It is better to be tried by 12.... When the SHTF, you fall back on your training in automatic mode. So train well and often.


I didn't mean to hijack this thread, but greg brought it up. I started out telling it in third person because I really don't want to sound like I am proud of it or bragging and I don't mean to be. I did what I had to do and was vindicated.

Yes it did happen. October 1998. The whole thing exhausted a lot of my savings, and some credit card debt that has since been paid for. The PD Commander on the scene allowed me to go home that night and to come in the following week with a lawyer to make a statement. Everything was clear and obvious to them that night, some officers even commended me.

My initial intentions were to confront them while in the low ready, and hopefully shout them off. As I turned around, the guy had his hand on his gun and was pulling it. I am sure that if he had seen my gun sooner, he would have it pointed at me. And there is the possibility that he drew because he saw mine, but had he stuck his hands up or ran off, I would not have shot. That and their priors convinced the PD that I had acted properly. There were 3 witnesses approaching from behind the van ****-eaters that saw what the van did, and the whole thing. They told the police that night, I had to do it. When they blocked us in, I had no choice but to act.

I was handcuffed and locked in a patrol car for a while, where I puked up that fine steak I had just eaten. Odd feeling when it is over.

The DA prosecuted under political pressure. I did not spend any time in jail, because it was only after the political pressure did the DA decide to prosecute. I surrendered and had bail arranged before we went in. The PD were really nice to me, and they even indicated they thought I was getting a ****ty deal. The Assistant DA that handled the case did not seem to be too interested in getting a conviction. The investigating officers were better witnesses for me than the state. She (assistant DA) allowed my lawyer to seat my dream jury (some code words there) and she let him get some stuff out. At one time my attorney indicated that she wasn't pushing it because of the way she conducted herself.

Girlfriend: Leslie was a nurse and one of those "I could never hurt anyone" types; I am a nurse and we heal...blah blah blah. Another long story. She did not know I was armed that night, or most nights we were together. I found out early that she didn't warm up to guns, so I didn't push it. No huge loss, the timing is what hurt. With all else going on, the last thing I needed was her breaking up. It was not until the trial that I really knew what she would do on the stand. What she did on the stand was enough to settle it for me. I hold no grudges against her, never did. But I won't date another nurse.


As far as the terminal ballistics of the .45. In classes my failure drill from concealed holster generally run in the 1.5 to 2 second area. I doubt any handgun caliber will create adequate results in less than two seconds. I just opened up like I had trained to do. I was going with the 3rd shot, unless the guy was on the ground out of it. When I say there was no reaction to the first two rounds, I meant his head was still where I expected it to be. I never have planned to stop and fully asses the vital signs of an attacker. My plan has always been to do the failure drill if the pumpkin was there and it was. It all happens so fast, you wouldn't believe it.

Since I was innocent, I can still carry.

As for the follow up visits from the Gangstas, I prefer not to get into that right now. Very long ugly stories. On 2 possibly 3 (the 3rd I spotted them and called the police and kept riding around the parking lot, the police came and ran them off so I don't know what their intentions were or if they were there to visit me) different occasions there were young gentlemen waiting for me when I got off work, once was an attempt to kick in my front door while I was home. I highly recommend the Remington 870.

I moved after the initial incident, and the phone company messed up and my 'unlisted' number got listed. So I moved again. A Lt. with the gang squad said that after a while, the membership would turn over to the point they would forget about me. That officer was at my trial and alerted me to potential retribution. There were a Gangstas at my trial. Relatives of the deceased I guess. I currently live in another city with an unlisted number. It has been 4 years, so I hope the follow up visits will cease. Everyday when I step out to get in my vehicle, I stop and scan the parking lot real good. My experiences have served to give me an edge and to keep me on my toes, and to keep me awake at night. Better than the alternative.


If I may offer one piece of advice to anyone who will listen:

If you are ever involved in a shooting, resist all urges to look at the guy after he is down. Move out of the area, and don't ever look at them. You want to remember them as a threat, not as a corpse.

Thanks for letting me get if off my chest.

<­BR>

quote:

Originally posted by Hackit25
I am sure if I have to use my pistol in self defense it will be a good shoot. I am worried about where ill get money for the defense in court!



Just don't say a word after it happens. Tell the officers you will cooperate, but you are in no condition to make a statement. Every word you say will cost you money.

If you are in the right, and it was a good shoot, you won't have much of an attorney fee. Just for one to meet with you and go in to make a statement. Your range will probably know a good lawyer for this purpose.

I would be willing to be most pro gun lawyers will allow you to pay as you can.

My problems came from politics. Basically, a democrat council woman did not like the idea of me engaging her constituents. Other than that, the PD would not have recommended charges. I thought I was free and clear until an investigator called me and told me what was going on. He suggested I retain a lawyer and to give him, the officer, the lawyers name so we could arrange a time for me to come in and surrender myself. That made it a lot smoother.

Cooperate with the PD as much as possible. If it is obvious your shooting was just, they won't push you for any answers. In fact, they may even suggest that you not say anything without a lawyer present.

The officers on the beat sees what happens to victims and are usually glad when the intended victim gets the upper hand.

Member question:
“With all the "political pressure" and subtle words, do I pick up the hint that there were some racial issues that came into play that caused the political PERSON to feel the need to file charges?”



Shooter reply:
White man defends against young black males. Black female council member with a mouth like Cynthia McKinney. White District attorney, in the south in a city with a predominately black population. Draw your own conclusions.

If I may add:

black officer handcuffed me, apologized for having to do it but it was procedure and he would face disciplinary action if he didn't;

the same black officer uncuffed me, told me it appeared to be a justified shoot and acknowledged I did what needed to be done, suggested I get an attorney and reminded me of my right to remain silent. Told me not to worry about the puke in the car, was very considerate and kind;

black and white detectives for follow up meetings, and to take my statement all had same mindset with regard to it being a justified shoot. It was the black detective that called and told me they would not recommend charges;

black Lt on gang unit gave me feedback and 'intel' about what to expect from the gang in the future and how to handle it. He also gave me his card, cell phone number and pager number if I ever needed his help.

So the problem for me was a politician.
In any situation, the DA is the ultimate decision maker to decide if charges are placed. Usually the DA is or was a politician and they cannot discount a return to politics at some time in the future. When the DA gets a lot of nasty attacks, it will influence his opinion. I don't know what made him decide to go through with it, but for some reason he did. Politics being the way they are, never doubt anything. Do what you have to do, make sure you are in the right, and be ready to support it. Luckily it is the jury that has the last say. In Membabwe, you have to consider who will be on your jury. hint hint.

I got the gun back after about a month. I had others so I was able to carry.

Good question about the reload, that is a situation that has bugged me since.

The daytimer carry has a stretchable strap for an extra mag. I usually put one in the strap and have another stacked beside it, floating free. When it is zipped, the mag stays secure. It was a dreadful situation after I fired 6 of 9. The daytimer was on the ground, not completely unzipped and it would have been a struggle to quickly reload. I often wonder if I would have had the presence of mind to ration the next 3 rounds, glad I didn't have to do it. Technically, the floating magazine could have fallen on the ground around my feet if I had totally unzipped the daytimer, but the I didn't take the time to do that. I have adjusted my carry method since. I still carry the 1911, with the 2 extra mags, I keep a mag in my left trouser pocket, and have a G19 or a P99 on my ankle, usually the P99. I use a handy stitch to create a pouch in my pocket that holds the mag vertical and high so I can get it quickly. In the slacks I wear, it works pretty well.

The daytimer carry does have that drawback, but we went to a restaurant where alcohol was sold (this point was never pursued by the DA) and without the daytimer, I would not have felt as comfortable carrying in a no carry zone. It was a trade off of smooth use vs. discrete in an area that is illegal to carry in. I still carry the same way now, I just keep an extra mag in my left pocket. I also dry fire with that rig.


In hindsight, I think a 9mm +P+ would have been as effective, considering I had to go the full 3 rounds, and I would have been able to have the additional rounds. That is one reason I am going to be fighting for the sunset of the mag cap ban. www.awbansunset.com

I have never gotten in the debate of .45 vs 9mm because they are both adequate if properly used.

Another thing for you folks to take away from this experience. I always have my GF on my left because of the potential for using the pistol. The thing I never went over with Leslie was that if I draw, she should start running to a safe place.

So tell your wife, gf, sig other, whatever, when the gun comes out, run away from the fight and run for help\safety. Don't worry about me, RUN. That was something we never covered, and we should have. I cover that now.

FWIW: whenever I have a new acquaintance, we go over these things. For those that resist my CCW, I tell the story and show them my 'legal' file, and they warm up to the fact really well.

Intelligence is the ability to learn from experience, wisdom is the ability to learn from other peoples experience.

I appreciate the kind remarks.

Stay safe

Originally posted by Big_Al
quote:

I hate the fact that you lost your GF - but that's the way some females are brainwashed into thinking. You're better off.



I really don't hold it against her, it was partially my fault for not discussing the possibilities better. Perhaps if she knew I was armed and why, it would not have been the shock to her that it was. Understand too, her being a nurse and required by law (with the threat of losing her license) to render aid to anyone that she encounters that needs it, she got a glimpse of it first hand, up close and personal. I had to force her away from the scene. She was just a floor nurse that occasionally dressed a wound, nothing like what she saw that night.

She was as sorry as I was, but she just couldn't deal with it and I don't understand it. I wish her all the best in life. Perhaps she had already planned to break up and after the incident she waited because she knew I needed her. I certainly don't blame her, she is a wonderful little lady and I am sure she is making someone a wonderful wife. Just not me. I do often wonder if her current guy carries a gun.
quote:

I wonder what would have happened if you couldn't afford an attorney? Would you have had to represent yourself, or would you have a lawyer appointed for you?



I would have had a public defender, which probably would have sufficed. My family may have had to help before I got a P defender. I didn't even question it, I got a lawyer to go make the statement, and I stayed with him. Again, my lawyer didn't think the assistant DA was really pushing for a conviction. There were things he saw that made him think so. Halfway through, during a recess, he pointed out a point he made that she should have objected to, but didn't. He knew her, and knew it wasn't like her to miss what she missed. I would almost swear she winked and smiled at me after it was over; not a come on, but in approval. But I am not sure what was going on in all that.

You would not believe what it is like to sit there and wait for the jury to file in, then to stand and listen to the verdict. OMG it is painful.
quote:

Another thing - and I know this is a pipe dream - but since you were found innocent, is there any way you could sue the state to recoup your monetary losses?



I could try, but I stood to lose even more. My lawyer advised me to be grateful with the verdict and move on. I did, because so far, HE WAS DA MAIN.
quote:

You stated you felt a strange feeling of "guilt" - was that temporary, or is that still with you?



Bad at first, couldn't eat, couldn't sleep, threw up a bunch of times, then it got easier to handle. It got worse when Leslie decided to move on, because I didn't have that support, I was alone. When I am awake, it is not a big deal, just a bad memory. Had insomnia for several weeks and during the trial. It is the recurring dreams that cause me to wake up with odd feelings. I have developed what Cosmo Kramer called the "Jimmy Legs". I physically react to dreams now, which adds a sense of realism to the dream and I wake up with my heart racing. I don't remember ever doing that before

The thing is, they were both somewhat younger than I was, one of them was a nice looking kid and didn't have that mean look that we expect BG's to have. I often remember him as a nice looking young kid, instead of the monster and rapist he was.
quote:

so we'll know what to expect.



Nothing can prepare you for that. Every situation is different for every person. Some of our keyboard commando's would want to take pictures of the deceased and hang them on their walls as a trophy, maybe cut off an ear or something, some people may end up insane. I guess I fall somewhere in between; close to being insane.

Big AL-
There is really no telling what to expect after a situation. You may go home and sleep, or you may go to jail. Get the business card of a good lawyer from your range (if they don't have a referral lawyer, encourage them to find one and develop a relationship with him), keep it in your wallet next to your permit, or write the lawyers name and number on the back of your permit. Don't discuss it with the police. Tell them you want to speak to a lawyer, that should suffice. Every word you say will cost you money and heartache. The less you say, the less you have to repeat. Spending the night in jail is better than saying something that will haunt you in the future. IMO, the vast majority of Police officers will determine quickly that you acted properly and will not press you. My problem was from politicians.

CarryTexas:

I would like to add some things to your preps. Deprogram yourself from the brainwashing your parents did on you. Get the idea "I never want to have to kill another human being" out of your head. Those thugs aren't human. Ending a thug life is nothing like ending a human life, don't confuse the two. "Thou Shalt not Murder" is different from "Thou Shall not Kill". The logic of knowing that won't help much, but any little bit helps. .

My parents put that idea in my head, and I guess it is good for a teenager to hear, but when you are a law abiding adult, you don't want that program in your head.


When you shoot at the range, shoot at the people targets, not just circles and dots

I think I would want my wife well trained, but I want her to run in any event, unless she is boxed in. Of course she won't want to run, but it will be piece of mind for you. Who knows, seeing her take off may distract the BG's, or she can run 10 feet and then engage them, then they have two defenders. You may want to get an expert opinion, I am no expert, on that situation. But it may be like all opinion matters.

I just wanted her safe, that was all
I failed to mention, she was fresh out (7 months) of nursing school, and she worked the nicer hospital in town with the somewhat better clientele, she was young, and she had a lot of learning yet to do. That nursing school is renowned for pumping up their ego and making them arrogant (my niece went to the same school and she is mucho arrogant). I just don't think Leslie was thinking straight.

It was my fault for not properly covering the reasons I carried and what could happen and I think she was just reacting and not thinking. You just never expect to be a victim.

Thanks Jason, that was very kind of you to say, but the fact is: I was scared ****less and was backed against the wall. There was no chest blowing, not neat one liners, no heroism, no big bad daddy; nothing but pure unadulterated fear. For me to pretend otherwise would be a tremendous stretch. If we could have gotten out of it by running away, we would have, but I missed that opportunity.

Unfortunately I got caught with my pants down, and almost paid dearly for it. The proper action for me would have been to avoid it altogether.

If it happened again tomorrow, I would be just as scared.
Shoeless,

Leslie was not comfortable around guns, so I didn't push it; the ole approach of sweeping the subject under the carpet and hope it goes away, method of dispute resolution. My concern then was if it was discussed, she may 'convince' me (women do have a strange power over me) not to carry, so I just dropped the subject altogether. And it didn't matter because I continued to carry.

So she was just frozen in place when it all went down, she did squat after the fat hit the fire. I would have preferred knowing that she would run in a safe direction, she may have been hit by a stray round where she was, or I may have gone down. If I had gone down, at least my action may have given her a head start. With all that going on, I seriously doubt the thugs would have ran after her. If she ran in the opposite direction, then the van was pointed in the wrong direction to pursue. They probably would have gotten in the van and left. At least then if I went down, and she got away, my effort would not have been in vain. I could have told her to run, but I got the stage fright. It is hard to speak in that situation.

I can live with being shot, but I cannot live with myself knowing she was taken away from me and whatever was done to her. When thugs take her away from me, then they have victimized us both because I have to live with that part of it.

In your case, since your husband doesn't carry, you should use him as cover. Teach him to be still and you use him like a tree to shoot behind.

Seriously; it is a different story with you. You are not concerned about his safety like I was hers; they won't try to abduct him. I would think you should have some type of plan, and discuss what he will do in the event. Even if he takes 5 steps away from you and starts screaming, it could be a distraction to the thugs and it may give you an edge.

Your situation is a unique one. Perhaps you could discuss it with your chief instructor and find out what (s)he thinks. Or you and your husband brainstorm and see what you come up with.

I am really proud of the way I carry my spare mag now. Described in an earlier post. I really got lucky when I came up with it. When I wear jeans, I have 2 spare mags on my waist. For places that I cannot carry, I just wear my slacks (Savane style) with the mag pouch sewn into the pocket. I generally don't carry much in my pockets so I don't need the room. The butt plate sticks just above the pocket so it is easy to get out, but is not noticeable. Works really well.
quote:

Originally posted by Zundfolge
I have personally talked to 2 other guys who had to kill in self defense.

the thing they learned is that after its all over with, ....proud is not something they feel.

He says he always feels a pang of guilt when people congratulate him on his "kill".



Well said.

I often wonder how I would feel about it all if she and I were still together and possibly married. It would most certainly help if I could tap into her gratitude and know that I did what I had to do. At least to have her there to remind me and perhaps to soothe ill feelings. As it is, it all seems surreal.

quote:

Originally posted by mark123
The thing that jumped out at me was all shots were on target. I have got to get to the range more.

After the incident did your practice slow down a bit? or did you keep at it?



They were 5 feet away and closing. Not hard at that distance. Training increased as far as more classes. I was already going to the range at least 2 times a month. I had those records if they were needed, they were not. I would recommend keeping a spreadsheet detailing days you went to the range, what gun you shot, distances you shot, and how many rounds. It also helps keep up with the number of rounds through your guns.

No civil action, I don't know why other than the record of the deceased and that the criminal trial wasn't until 14 months after the incident. In my state they have 12 months to file suit, or file intent to sue. I think they thought I was going to prison, or they thought that the criminal record of the deceased would work to my favor. It would be admissable in civil action.
quote:

Originally posted by rtr
What training did you have previous to this incident? What went through your head during the incident? Just pure fear. Was it all a blur? Or do you remember thinking "frontsight, press", and or other training mantra?

What happened after they were all down? Did you render aid and call 911, or runaway or what? I'm not sure I'd be able to render aid to someone I just shot.



Pure fear, that pumps the **** out of adrenaline. It speeds your senses up to where things seem to be moving slow; hard to describe. I got a headache from my heart racing so hard after it happened. It took a while to settle down.

I had 3 classes. CCW, CCW II, and the Tactical Pistol. It seemed to happen so slowly, but yet after it was done, it went quick. I did not think fronsite press, I just did it.

She moved to help, I grabbed her and drug her across the street (away from the van) and into the nearest open business. I didn't even consider helping them, and she just reacted.

All I remember thinking was: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh­hhhhh
hggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg­gggggggggggggg
ggggggggg I may have even said it too. I kinda think I did.

Imagine those dreams you have where you are stricken with fear, but you are unable to react to a threat, that is how it felt, but I was able to react. I wish I could put it into words.

quote:

Originally posted by Jarhead_22
Questions, if you don't mind:
Do you remember seeing your sights?
Did you have any use of force experts at your trial?



Yes and Yes. The testimony from the investigating detectives worked better for me than any expert, because they were there in an officical capacity. But we had them anyway. When an investigating detective is asked if they thought the defendant acted properly, and the ADA didn't object, and the answer was "IMO, yes, definitely". That pretty much did it.



With regard to not looking at them after they are down, I forgot to mention, don't look at the autopsy photos either. Tell your lawyer that you do not want to see them and ask him to make the effort to shield you from them. When I saw them, my lawyer picked up on the reaction. He apologized and kept them out of my sight. Too late though.

FWIW:

I have taken several classes since, and never brought the subject up. If any of you were in a class with me, this subject would never even come up. Not something I wear on my sleeve.

quote:

Originally posted by ProGlock
Btw, if I had been on that jury, and you just said "he needed killin'", that would have been good enough reason for me!

Btw RR, what type bullets did you use? FMJ? Hollow point?



Thanks. I had 12 people similar to you on the jury.

Hollow points, nothing special. Now I use Hydra Shok.

quote:

Originally posted by rtr
I understand, however, I know I have learned a lot from this thread, and I know others could learn a lot from you too.

I have one more question, how did the media treat you and this case?



I was in a class with a jughead that was a blowhard and had a story he loved telling. It didn't sit too well with me, and I don't want to appear to be that way.

In most classes, the criteria and time frame is already planned and discussion of everybodies experiences would just prevent adequate coverage of the planned material. Imagine how many questions would be asked, and how long my experiences would take from the class. Then consider if someone else had an experience they wanted to share. It would just prevent the entire class from learning what they paid to learn, and it may even prove distracting to the instructors.

One of the few things I told the officers was that I requested "no publicity". It was after I was taken into custody. I remembered a discussion at the range about the media and gang retribution and that you could request "no publicity". It dawned on me in the back of the squadcar that I did not want this in the paper. The officer agreed and said it was not a problem.

I never got an answer as to how "no publicity" works. I have heard different things: one is that the police do not release your name to the media but they release details and that if you request "no publicity" and the paper print your name, the paper can be held liable. I also heard that if the police dept. request "no publicity" and the media does it (name names) anyway, the dept will withhold informtion in the future.

Again, I don't know exactly how it works, that was a point I never pursued. I had bigger fish to fry. Those are things I have heard since, I don't know how it works.

I was scared to death when I scoured the paper for the next few days, and was very relieved that it was not in it.

quote:

Originally posted by Jack Straight
Did your CCW training include the "color code" scheme? It seemed like you did it very well.

Keep the eyes and ears open everyone!



Yes it did. I was well aware of the color codes. I didn't think "now that makes orange" (I do now), but there was an escalation.

When you think about it, the color codes, as good as they are, basically represent good common sense and give a good way to express it.

FWIW. Now when with my g\f, whenever I approach an intersection or a train crossing, I scope it out and ask, "what is wrong with this picture" that gets her to thinking and looking. I will often get in the middle lane (a technical no-no) or in the right lane by a bus stop, to give her something to spot and answer. She will often call my attention to 'possibles' (that is what we call anything that gets a second look) before I get a chance to call them out, that has her thinking.

The result is that now when she is alone, she looks at every intersection from a defensive point of view. The practice with me, gets her into a habit that carries over when she is alone.

Yes, she carries.

quote:

Originally posted by 4TS&W
Do you know if any of the scumbags have tried to get retribution on her? She sounds ill-prepared to do much about it if they did.



No, not that I ever heard of, Thank God!!

But her just being a witness at the trial, instead of co-defendant, her address may not have been as accessible as mine.

quote:

Originally posted by GlockenHammer
Had BG#1 not shown a gun, you would not have been legally authorized to show/use deadly force. Having a bad feeling works great on the street, but not in court. This scenario concerns me greatly.

So, what advice would you give someone in a similar situation, but where BGs did not show weapons?



Even if BG1 did not have a gun, I would have been justified in drawing my sidearm and going to the low ready. As long as I did not point my gun at an individual, I would be free from prosecution. Low ready is a tactic that a lot of people tend to overlook, or make stupid excuses against using.

My advice would be just that: when you feel threatened and are not sure if they are armed, draw to low ready and shout them off, and keep shouting. If you shout enough for others around you to hear, they can attest to you sounding scared, thus you are justified in drawing.

Worst case scenario, you will be facing a "brandishing" charge in some stupid states, but that would be a misdeamenor, not a felony. Pointing it at someone unarmed is "Assault with a Deadly Weapon", a felony.

Drawing to the low ready is a legitimate tactic, and a good tactic. It allows you to get prepared to defend, to break off your counter attack, and allows the luxury of further assessing a situation without losing the edge while doing so. From the low ready you can move up on target PDQ, go back to holster when the threat subsides or is not a threat, or you can stay ready while you determine the severity of the threat. Low ready will also have an affect on an unsuspecting bad guy, possibly causing him to go elsewhere.

I would check local laws with regard to what "brandishing" is considered to be. In a legitimate situation, I can't see drawing to low ready, assessing a danger then returning to holster, being called brandishing; especially when you did not point the gun at anyone and circumstances warranted it. It is better than nothing.


I almost got carjacked 2 years ago by 2 apparently armed BG's (they were favoring the 2 O'clock position on their waist), I drew to low ready, shouted them off, and they ran. I never saw their guns, but I saw where their hands were and how they were favoring that area. They were headed straight to me, and I saw their reflection in my rear van window as I shut the rear hatch. I turned, spotted their hands, drew to low ready and shouted them off, they ran off. I reported it so the police would have a description and to prevent them from just finding another victim. The police did nothing to me.

So keep low ready in your tool kit, it may just give you the edge you need. But ask an instructor at your range what his opinion on it is.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:50:48 PM EDT
I got a flat tire one night late (about 2 am), and pulled over to change it. A few minutes later, another car pulls up and stops behind me. Two younger (early 20's I would guess) guys get out, one has a baseball bat, and the other is looking back and forth along the road, and says "get him." I drew my HiPower and said "try somebody else", and they got back in the car and left, but not without cursing at me as they pulled away.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:52:36 PM EDT
Wow!! That was a long post!
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:52:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 12:57:03 PM EDT by BadCompany]
Working the graveyard shift at a convenience store. Fella came in with a mask on and his hand in his pocket. Said give me all your fucking money. I came up with a glock 17. He must have seen the clock and realized that he was out past curfew cause he left real fast.



edit.- The only thing the cops hassled me for was my little bitty 9mm.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:54:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BadCompany:
Working the graveyard shift at a convenience store. Fella came in with a mask on and his hand in his pocket. Said give me all your fucking money. I showed him the clock. He must have seen the clock and realized that he was out past curfew cause he left real fast.



Fixed it !
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:58:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BadCompany:
Working the graveyard shift at a convenience store. Fella came in with a mask on and his hand in his pocket. Said give me all your fucking money. I came up with a glock 17. He must have seen the clock and realized that he was out past curfew cause he left real fast.



edit.- The only thing the cops hassled me for was my little bitty 9mm.




lol that reminds me, I had almost the same thing happen except it was a Glock 22. Guy came in and I was out of sight, as I was coming into sight I saw a gun hidden behing his leg. Mine made it out of it's holster pretty quick, I do believe his pissed himself.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 1:02:47 PM EDT
I came home and found a drunk guy passed out in my window of my res and drawed down onhim and he wet his pants and started crying, it turned out it was a neighbor who got to drunk and forgot where he lived.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:03:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 2:07:45 PM EDT by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:07:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
Not counting the military, five times I've actually pulled my weapon and once returned fire. I've had far more incidents wth my weapon ready that came too close for comfort. All of the incidents where the police were involved, they were pretty much great and it was their action that kept the DA out of it. It helps to not be wrong or even the most minute suspicion of wrong doing.

By far the most intense incidents in my life, once again other than the military, I never even pulled my gun but had the other guy made another move it would have been him or me. I hated these moments when everything, your life, freedom, and property were in the hands of others. I avoid them as much as possible but sometimes you can't for people are idiots.

The most recent was setting at a campfire drinking. I had a made a comment about what I would do if someone did something to my wife and one guy took offense to it. I think it was cause I mentioned his favorite gun make. I couldn't see shit for he was on the otherside of the fire. I don't know if he knew I was armed but I damn sure knew he was. I highly suspect he didn't think I was cause he had seen me put my range gun in its case and store it in my car. I don't tell people about my CCW. I have only once and that was a good cop buddy of mine. He baited me verbally but in a low tone as if to impress the others by him and hope I didn't hear it. I sat there with my hand on my G26 and ignored him continuing my discussion. He had no idea how close his macho BS came to getting him killed that night. He was definately an idiot for only a fool would let someone come at them from out of the dark knowing they were armed and not act. I would have had no choice in the matter.

You know what was ironic? This guy escalated an almost deadly situation cause basically I said a comment about a Glock and he had no fucking idea I was setting there with my hand on a Glock.

Well pal, if you're reading this, that's how close you came that night and why I don't camp around you anymore nor will invite you to other camps I attend. You see, I'm easy going and think first. Some of the guys I camp with aren't. Your macho childish behaviour might just get killed someday and I'd rather not be there.

Tj

If the majority of people on this site had HALF this much maturity, we'd be much better off. TJ is a good example of how we should be, and one reason I enjoy reading the SF so much. TU
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:09:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:
I was a brand new Lieutenant, right out of college with my liberal arts degree. It was my turn to be Officer-of-the-Day, which means wearing a formal uniform, getting a car and spending the night patrolling the base, inspecting the mess hall and barracks, etc. I was issued an armband, a forty-five and a magazine with five rounds, which had to go on the opposite side of my belt and not be inserted without a good reason. (Sort of like Barney Fife with his bullet in his pocket.) The 1911 was so worn that I remembering wondering if it would work.

Around midnight, I'm driving through a part of the base that's deserted, because the unit quartered there is deployed. I notice a guy climbing out a window with an armload of stuff. He puts it in a car, then goes back in the window. I park and watch him make a couple more round trips as my steel-trap mind reaches the conclusion that he's a burglar. I load the rode-hard-and-put-away-wet .45 and go wait by the window. I was wondering if he was alone, what he was armed with and if my pistol would work.

When he climbs out, I point the pistol at him and say "Freeze". He does, just like in the movies. I remember being very surprised that he didn't "fight or flee".

Unfortunately, that was as far as I had thought things through. We stood there in the dark looking at each other for a long time while I tried to figure out what to do next. How could I drive the car? Hmmm, maybe I could have him drive while I kept him covered... Nah.

Finally, I hiked him down the sidewalk until we came to a pay phone.

I didn't know the MP's number.

I keep him covered while I try to explain the situation to the operator. By now my arms are so tired from holding up the beater pistol that I'm switching hands, resting it on my hip, etc. I can see the wheels turning in my burglar's head.

I finally get the MP's on the phone. They ask where I am.

I don't know.

I spent quite a bit of time describing the surroundings. Big oak trees, brick buildings.

I finally hike my burglar another block, read the street signs, then hike back to the phone. The MP's come and get us.

When we get to the Provost Marshall's office, every available MP is standing there grinning. They've all come to see Barney Fife.

As the paperwork is being filled out, more MP's bring in a bunch of guys who'd been in a fight in the Casual Company barracks. They handcuff this huge guy to a chair. There's lots of shouting and confusion. The huge guy's wife jumps on an MP's back and bites a hunk out of his neck. Another MP hits the back of her head a night stick. It sounds like a baseball bat on a coconut. She drops like she's been hit by lightning. The big guy stands up and picks up the chair he's handcuffed to. The MP's go to work on him. Everyone piles in. I'm standing there with my mouth open. Some bird colonel grabs the back of my collar and pulls me up against a wall. He says "You and I are just going to stand here and watch this."

It only lasted a few seconds. I can't believe the MP's didn't kill anybody with those sticks. They were bouncing them off skulls so hard that blood was splattering, and I got the dry-cleaning bill to prove it.


Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:13:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:13:42 PM EDT
Tag to read later...
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:35:30 PM EDT
Twice...
I had to pull guard duty with the SPs (Air Force) on site in Denmark. Some civilians were hauling ass toward our site on motorcycles and got our attention. We watched 'em and after a minute the Sgt said to me (E-2) lock and load.
I was like "WTF?" and did it. As soon as we raised our rifels those guys ALL (5or 6) slide down in the mud trying to turn around, a couple took off running and left their bikes in the mud.
Pretty funny, but I was pretty freaked for the moment...shooting civilians..Iwas a radio tech...

A few years ago a road rager almost killed some kids passing me in median of a school zone. He got in front of me and slammed on his brakes and jumped out. He had black windows all around. When he got out of his door and turned to me, he was in the sites of my G26. He stopped.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:38:21 PM EDT

It's not fun as it would seem and time goes by real fast. It's all over before it even begun.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:49:10 PM EDT
Yeah, I think that can be agreed on by all. A few things about the two times I have. I was scared shitless, damn thankful for all the training and drills, afterwards thankful as hell I didn't have to shoot anyone, and pissed off at the person for putting me in that posistion so bad I wanted to shoot them.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:54:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By olyarms:

It's not fun as it would seem and time goes by real fast. It's all over before it even begun.



Yeah, I hear porta-potty security work can go like that.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 3:01:01 PM EDT
Had a guy walk into the liquer store i was working in late one night in Gardnerville Nevada. He had his hands in his coat pockets and was pointing, at the time i didnt know it but it was his finger, and said "give me your money". Having my .45 auto near the register it was easy to grab it and put it up against his chest. He immediately pulled his hands from his pockets, held them up and said "i dont have a gun". Then proceeded to ask me to call the cops so he could go to jail. I told him i'm not gonna call the cops and tell them you tried to hold me up with your fuckin finger....get outta here and dont come back...he left.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 3:10:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rainman:
Had a guy walk into the liquer store i was working in late one night in Gardnerville Nevada. He had his hands in his coat pockets and was pointing, at the time i didnt know it but it was his finger, and said "give me your money". Having my .45 auto near the register it was easy to grab it and put it up against his chest. He immediately pulled his hands from his pockets, held them up and said "i dont have a gun". Then proceeded to ask me to call the cops so he could go to jail. I told him i'm not gonna call the cops and tell them you tried to hold me up with your fuckin finger....get outta here and dont come back...he left.

I dunno, with the exception of my jackass friend I'd think you need to call the cops to get in a report first anytime you draw.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 4:03:48 PM EDT
3 times,

First time while i was stationed at ft benning ga. I lived off post and went to a subway for lunch one day. When i came out and got in my truck 3 teens in a rodeo blocked me in, they all got out and came my way. I took my g23 out of the console and stuck it in my back pocket as i exited the truck. I asked what they wanted and they told me to "give it up" this went on for a minute, i finally asked if they wanted what was in my back pocket ( they were about 6 to 9 feet away) They said yes, so i shucked the glock and put one into the ground next to them. They hauled balls, one guy was hanging onto the door as his buddies tried to get away. When i explained it to the cop he told me it was a shame i dodnt shoot one of them.


Second time i was in my apartment in metro detroit, and got woke up on my couch by banging and yelling on my door. I looked thru the peephole and saw 4 chaledeans standing around my door with bats. i yelled what do yall want and they screamed for some arab named guy to come out before they kicked down the door and beat us with the bats. I informed them whoever it was wasn't there and they needed to leave. they started beating on the door yelling again, so i snatched up my mossberg and racked it. That didn't seem to phase them, so i put the chain on and put the door wedge about 6 inches behind the door. Cracked it open and stuck the muzzle out in the hallway, they damn near jumped over the stairwell getting out. when i stepped out (about a minute later) to make sure the hallway was clear, my across neighbor opened his door and steeped out with a calico 9mm, i was suprised, he told me he was expectin to see some action there for a minute. i didnt even know the guy owned a gun, he was one of those hippy college proff looking guys.


Third time was last summer while i was home on R&R from Iraq. I went out on the second day and bought a tahoe with my re-up money. The next day i took my mossberg out to shoot sporting clays with all the sst590 stuff on it, just to see how it would work. On my way home i noticed a car that seemed to be following me. After exiting the highway and making a complete circuit of a block there was no more doubt. I was about out of gas so i stopped at a gas station and pulled up at the pump. They pulled up at a payphone across the lot, and the passanger started my way holding a tire iron. I opened the back door of the truck and got out my mossberg, stepped back and walked around to the rear passanger side. I could see him trying to figure out where i was as he walked up. I stepped clear of the truck and pulled up the mossberg and asked him "Can i help you?" he let out a yelp, turned, throwing the tire iron and beat feet back to the car screaming GOOO GOOOOO. The guy in the gas station called the cops, and i had to do some explaining, but they cut me some slack cause i played the home on R&R card. After the tape was reviewed i was called and told i was good to go and not to worry about it.

The one thing that has amazed me in all 3 of these situations is how fast people can run when they are truely motivated.

The one time i have been arrested i didnt even have a gun on my person, they found it disassembeled int he back of my truck after the muggers i interupted told the cops i pulled a chromed out snubby on them. Apparently in royal oak MI a glock is a clkose enough match to a "chromed out snubby" to arrest you and charge you with carring a conceled weapon, @ counts of felanious assualt with a firearm, and public brandishment.

Due to the fact that if i had let it go to trial i would have done time, since the thought of a man with a gun makes people pee their pants in oakland county, i plead it to brandishment, which was a 300$ misdeamoner.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 4:18:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 50cal:
At an ATM drive up machine once. 2 "misguided yewts" asked for the cash I had just drawn from the machine. They were both sitting on the curb near the machine. I drove up and noticed them, so I placed my 1911 on my lap.
When I got the money out, they had gotten close enough to draw knives and ask for the cash. I picked my pistol up out of my lap and said "Git, assholes" The sight of nothing but ass and elbows was funny. I resisted the urge to put one in the ground near them and see if they had a higher gear.

When i reported it to the bank the next day, they reveiwed the tape and gave it to the local LE. After that, whenever I came into the bank, the tellers would snicker and wink.
One of them told me the tape was played at the Christmas party as part of a loop they made of antics at the ATM's the previous year.

An LE buddy of mine said it would have been ruled a good shoot and nothing would have been done about it. I just figured the aftermath would best be avoided. Besides, the look of shear terror on their faces was enough for me.



Nothing would have been done? I can tell you right now that is not true!...........


I'm sure the LEO's that responded would have been trading high fives and tossing about some good natured bantering as to the recently "reformed" youth.

Nothing would have been done......sheesh.


Link Posted: 12/18/2005 4:36:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wetidlerjr:

Originally Posted By olyarms:

It's not fun as it would seem and time goes by real fast. It's all over before it even begun.



Yeah, I hear porta-potty security work can go like that.


Why do you fucking get a kick out of trolling me? You do it a lot. You don't even know my first name... So grow the fuck up and quit being a fucking bitch. If you would like I would be glad to send you all of my personal info and you can come on down and talk shit to me. But I think you'er nothing but a fucking bitch.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 4:52:26 PM EDT

I have drawn on a number of people over the years although most of them never saw the gun. A couple weeks ago I was dropping off some kids after soccer practice at a friend's house when I saw a shithead coming down the sidewalk. It was after dark. I knew right them he was going to fuck with me. I drew and held my gun in my lap as I am driving a van. Yeah, I'm a van dad now. Anyway, my kid opens the big van door which causes the interior light to come on blinding me. Sure enough about one second later shithead is at my driver's side window saying something about "Shaking my hand". Being the thoroughly had enough, burnt out guy I am I told him "I don't want to shake your hand and you better get the hell away from me." Remember, I can't see him that well since he is in the dark and has postioned himself a little behind the door post so I can't see him that well. Imagine that. He didn't like that answer and stepped up to the window a little more and that is when he saw the gun. I was pretty mad by now as I felt like if he had a gun I was kind of fucked by the interior light of my vehicle being on making it hard for me to see his hands and lighting me up for him. All the while this is happening kids are bailing out of my van on the other side and my friend is coming out of his house after seeing us pull up. Dude took off when he saw the gun. If I had seen a gun I would have taken necesary action. Thatis how it is around here. It seems some people don't agree with aggressive tactics and it took me awhile to get used to it too. You can always put your gun back in your holster if you are wrong about something. The street is not a popularity contest. If you get caught short with someone pointing a gun at you and your gun is still in your holster you have a problem. I will pull a gun on you in a second if you approach me on the street and make the hair of the back of my neck stand up. If I have my kids with me it just makes me meaner.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 4:54:57 PM EDT
Well not counting military or on duty shooting(s), one:

I was off duty about 4 years ago and was picking up my dry cleaning. I had my uniforms done at a shop near our PD and not in the best part of town. For some reason I had my duty weapon in my truck that day. As I was leaving the dry cleaners with my UNIFORMS in my hands I noticed a guy across the street watching me walk to my truck with my hands full. He focused on me immediately and started towards me from across the street. I saw it coming and got to my truck before he could close the distance. I threw my uniforms inside, grabbed my weapon and turned to face him as he got even with my tailgate. He said that he needed $4 for some cigarettes and I said no. I had my pisol out of his view as I stood in the door of my truck. I am left handed so he couldn't see the pistol even though it was in my hand. When I told him "No" he took a step towards me and told me that I was going to give him the $4. Now for the funny part (if there is one), I knew the guy because I had arrested him several times before. I called him by name and told him that he didn't want to do what he was about to. It stunned him that I knew him and he didn't recognize me. I told him who I was and I could see the lights come on in his pea brain. He said, "Alright then." turned and walked off. I called the PD on my cell but he was gone into some apartments before anyone could get there. He never displayed a weapon but his message was VERY clear. I am not sure if he ever knew if I was armed or just how close that he came to dying. I have seen him a couple of times since then and he is now in prison for, what else, robbery.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 5:09:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 5:11:56 PM EDT by Blue84S10]
Back when work wasn't steady and I was fresh out of highschool the only gun I carried in my car was an old Mosin M44. One day I had to go to the DMV to get my car "verified". I was waiting in line, got my paperwork started, and the lady told me to go outside and pull my car around the building so they could check all of the vin numbers. She said when I was done, to return to her counter. I asked if I had to wait in line again, she said no. So I take my car around the building and do all the stuff that they needed me to, and then I go back inside and wait where the lady tells me to. Some african american guy waiting in line shouts out "HEY WHITEY! BACK OF THE LINE IS OVER THERE!" I say "I was here earlier, I have a front of the line pass". Guy shouts out "Yea? Well that was then, this is now!" I shrug it off and continue to wait. Eventually I finish my paperwork, the lady gets me my new license plates and I head out the door. I pop the trunk on my car and get a screw driver out, and put the front license plate on. As I'm returning to the rear of the car, the guy comes out of the DMV office and sees me. As he's approaching me he shouts out "HEY WHITEY! I'M NOT DONE WITH YOU YET!". So I reach into my trunk, and pull out my M44 and rest it on my hip with the muzzle pointed in the air. I say to him "Yea? What do you need to finish?". Guys eyes were as big as dinner plates and he took off running. I threw the rifle in the trunk and got the fuck out of there. I guess I never "drew down" but it was the closest I'd ever come to pointing a loaded gun at somebody. And of all places to happen, it was in the DMV parking lot
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 5:18:17 PM EDT
Well, this one time I was at the carwash and...

Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:21:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:
Here it is. Very long read, but seems worth it to me.



(Snip)

Thanks for posting all of it. It must be difficult to bring up, but it helps all of us prepare for the possible event, should it occur.

I'm sure it has occured to you that you probably saved numerous potential future victims. For them, and for the rest of society- Thanks!
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:24:29 PM EDT
Yes, numerous times as a LEO.

Not since holding a CHL.

HH
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:48:34 PM EDT
I did. I bought a new house and was only there for about 4 months before I had to draw down. I was not used to the neighborhood and I guess it’s normal to be a little more on the alert. Anyway the house had lots of windows that were huge. One side of the house was pretty much al windows with a hedge of 3' high Hibiscus trees around the house. The windows were to awing or jalousie type that cranked out.

I woke up and heard some sounds in the living room. I heard the screen being pushed in, a bump in the window frame and rustling in the hedges. It sounded like they were trying to be as quiet as the possibly could given the location of the hedges and how close they were to the windows.

This was completely frustrating for me. I was angry because someone was intruding into my personal domain. I was pissed off because I was going to have to kill someone. I grabbed my 686 and proceeded to clear the house. I told my then wife to get ready to call 911 and tell them I shot an intruder.

As I made my way out I carefully pied off the corners and decided against using my flashlight as there was enough ambient light to remain tactical. As I was clearing the hallway that led to the living room, I hear more noise. This time there was no doubt the screen was pushed in and I heard it hit the ground and judging by the rustling in the bushes, they were halfway in now. I did not want to wait until they were all the way in before things got worse. I moved out with more haste as I already secured the known areas. All the time I was playing out what I would do. I was hoping it was not my brother all drunk sneaking n, but he would not do that. I was also wishing this took place in the kitchen where it was tiles. It would be easier to clean up. I know that sounds harsh, but I was not in a pleasant mood, someone forced my hand that night and I was not taking much pity on the person at the time.

It was go time; I rounded the corner and prepared myself for what was about toe happen. It seemed like it took an hour to get to that point, it was lie I was clearing the house for hours before this point and final mental preparations must have happened in a spit second but seemed longer. I pied off the corner and prepared for fire at east 3 rounds of 158grn center mass of whoever was there. I was prepared for the ear splitting roar of a .357 in a close room. I was prepared for the muzzle flash. I was prepared to take the life of another human being. Al that seemed lie it would be fluid but I soon realized that all that preparation was soon to go out the window and my worldview come crashing down. One can think they are ready for what lies around the corner but sometimes it’s something you do not expect and its frustration beyond belief. I cannot believe what I saw. Crazy. It looked like his hair was all greasy and slicked back and the acne was so horrible I was in shock. I mean the word pizza face took on a whole new meaning and his beady eyes were staring right into me. He had no expression that I can describe. It wasnt fear, it wasnt hate, it was just odd. I actually dont even know if it was a him or a her.

Thing is, I couldnt bring myself to shoot him her. I totally failed. I prepared, I calculated, I was resolute that I was going to take a life that night. I was shaking inside and sick to my stomach at waht I had t do yet I could not pull the trigger.

<­BR>




Friggin duck was stuck in the window and it somehow ripped through and got into my living room.

Considering what it put me through that night I should have shot it.
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