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Posted: 12/17/2005 8:29:11 PM EDT
parkplanning.nps.gov/document.cfm?projectId=13746&documentID=12825


Description: The National Park Service (NPS) is proposing to update the policies that guide the management of the national park system. The policies are being updated to improve their clarity and to keep pace with changes in laws, regulations, socio-economic factors and technology. The revised policies will also improve understandings among NPS managers, and between NPS managers and the public, regarding how decisions are made in protecting park resources and providing opportunities for public enjoyment of the parks. Please note that all documents are MS Word files, except the last two (the Entire Draft and the Annotated Comparison version), which are listed in .pdf format. You may find the Annotated Comparison especially helpful because it explains many of the edits that have been made from the 2001 edition. When you are ready to submit your comments, click on the COMMENT ON DOCUMENT link at the bottom of the column on the left side of your screen. Your comments will be most helpful if they are specific, rather than general, and should cite applicable sections. These are numbered for your convenience within the draft.
Comment Period: 10/19/2005 - 02/18/2006




7.4.8 Battle Reenactments
When performed with the degree of authenticity essential to park interpretive programs, battle reenactments are inherently and unacceptably hazardous to participants and observers. Therefore, battle reenactments that involve exchanges of fire between opposing lines, the taking of casualties, hand-to-hand combat, or any other form of simulated warfare are prohibited in all parks.




This would mean no more Civil War reenactments or any other historical battles either.. Please go to the link above and comment on this. Writing to your Representatives wouldnt hurt...
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:30:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 8:31:00 PM EDT by Sukebe]
Is this a proposed law? A proposed rule change? An administrative decision/policy?
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:34:34 PM EDT
Oh for the love of God!

More flaming PC, save the children, we musn't do anything that could even remotely possibly cause anyone any discomfort or injury, no matter how fucking minor...

[furioius]



Yeah, "public" lands. Right.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:41:10 PM EDT

7.4.8 Battle Reenactments
When performed with the degree of authenticity essential to park interpretive programs, battle reenactments are inherently and unacceptably hazardous to participants and observers. Therefore, battle reenactments that involve exchanges of fire between opposing lines, the taking of casualties, hand-to-hand combat, or any other form of simulated warfare are prohibited in all parks.




Well let's just close the parks so no one gets a boo boo or an owie. Jeez
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:50:27 PM EDT
I so want to fire off a letter filled with "liberal shitstain motherfuckers", but I don't think that would help the cause.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:54:09 PM EDT
So let's just switch from enactments to the real deal.

I say we re enact the siezure of this country from an oppressive government.

Tea anyone?
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:58:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 8:58:26 PM EDT by fight4yourrights]

Originally Posted By Airwolf:
Oh for the love of God!

More flaming PC, save the children, we musn't do anything that could even remotely possibly cause anyone any discomfort or injury, no matter how fucking minor...

[furioius]



Yeah, "public" lands. Right.




Well said.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:58:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
So let's just switch from enactments to the real deal.

I say we re enact the siezure of this country from an oppressive government.

Tea anyone?



I got the tar, who's bringing the feathers
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 9:05:35 PM EDT
Nah, I say we pull our congress critters out of washington and start our own country!


Oh, wait.... damn, never mind.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 9:06:17 PM EDT
Click on the "Comment on Document" button on the left side of the page.


"7.4.8 Battle Reenactments
When performed with the degree of authenticity essential to park interpretive programs, battle reenactments are inherently and unacceptably hazardous to participants and observers. Therefore, battle reenactments that involve exchanges of fire between opposing lines, the taking of casualties, hand-to-hand combat, or any other form of simulated warfare are prohibited in all parks."

Congratulations. You have now effectively banned all reenactments, given the methods used by period combatants from 1640's - 1900.

While it may sound foolish, what do you intend to do - allow the reenactors to brandish loaves of bread, or perhaps water pistols? Perhaps a better idea is to simply deny that such methods were used - despite that it is historical fact.

The participants know of the possible hazards involved and take all appropriate safety precautions. And safety of bystanders can be guaranteed by effective cordoning and distance requirements.

As a proud descendent of one of the Minutemen called to duty on April 19, 1775 at Lexington and Concord, this restriction (and this attempt to neuter history) sickens me.

Link Posted: 12/17/2005 9:20:44 PM EDT
This past Thanksgiving I visited the Chickamauga battlefield and asked about reenactments to which I was told 'not on federal land'. The actors had to camp right outside the park and do their shooting/etc there (all on private land). I was rather surprised by all this since I thought the park system was pretty good about giving reenactors a place to display. In light of the initial post it all makes sense now.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 10:00:49 PM EDT
7.4.8 Battle Reenactments
When performed with the degree of authenticity essential to park interpretive programs, battle reenactments are inherently and unacceptably hazardous to participants and observers. Therefore, battle reenactments that involve exchanges of fire between opposing lines, the taking of casualties, hand-to-hand combat, or any other form of simulated warfare are prohibited in all parks.

Left hand meet right hand
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 10:22:29 PM EDT
Remember, I'm typing this at 2 AM.....


NEWS FLASH!

Reenactments as we understand them, incl. simulation of casualties, aimed fire, and rapid cannon fire, have been BANNED from ALL National Historic Parks and National Battlefield Parks since the 1960s.

WHY?


STUPID REENACTORS!

People who did lots of unsafe things like fire live ammo at each other, have premature ignition or hangfires occur in small arms and artillery, accidental spearings with bayonets, to name just a few of the more egregious things done. There are some REAL yahoos out there, and American Civil War reenactment seems to have the most, for various reasons. (One, ACW attracts more people into its ranks, and two, some of them still think the war's going on...)

People getting limbs blown off by cannons they were loading at reenactments in Civil War national battlefield parks in the 1960s brought all kinds of bad publicity, personal injury lawsuits, calls for hearings in Congress, and curbs of Congressional funding for the NPS, which is a branch of the Department of the Interior.

Also, couple these problems with the fact that a lot of reenactors pass on bad history to the public in the form of urban legends, as well as often not know how to deal with the public, and the NPS's mission, which is to preserve the important places and structures in which our nation's history and character were formed, and to educate the US people- all of them- about it, gets muddled. Perhaps with this understood, then you might see why the NPS looks askance at many -but not all- reenactors.(more below on the latter point)

And now, of course, the liability issue nowadays is phenomenal. The NPS gets sued by hundreds of people every year. Everybody is looking in to cashing in on Uncle $ugar, for the most bizarre reasons. People just don't seem to understand that you shouldn't walk up to the muzzle of a cannon while it's firing to look at the pretty colors, or that you can't ride your motorcycle on a historic farm road in a national park, even though it's posted, "NO VEHICLES". You can't smoke cigarettes inside historic houses, because they burn down REAL fast, and by Congressional law CANNOT be rebuilt.

How do I know all this?

I am a Revolutionary War reenactor, for the past ten years, and am also a park ranger (historical interpretation) for the National Park Service here in MA.

I shoot guns every day in my job, in demonstrations for the public as part of our education and interpretation programs. I have to follow strict safety protocols and pass rigorous tests, both formal and unannounced for carrying, firing, loading, misfire situations and cleaning. I see some bizarre shit go on with reenactors and weapons, and frankly, I'm amazed more people don't get hurt. Some groups and umbrella organizations are better than others, and they are the ones the NPS trusts to be safe and give the public good history.

The public love to see guns being shot, and reenactments, and the NPS wants to accommodate them, but it's tough sometimes. Everybody in the reenactment community says "we're not the problem" but somebody is not a problem until they become one. It's not inevitable, but we are all human beings who get inattentive, distracted, or make mistakes. And safety-wise, that's what brings in the lawsuits.

And guess who pays for those lawsuits?

You do, Mr. and Mrs. US Taxpayer.

You are also called Mr. and Mrs. Voter, and we pay attention to that fact, too.

We work at "getting it right" every day, and we have to satisfy EVERYBODY in the USA. Everybody. We have to satisfy the left, the right, atheists, believers, progunners antigunners, public schools, private schools, home schools, universities of every possible stripe. They all pay taxes, they all are Americans, no matter how I personally feel about their beliefs. (Believe me, I bite my tongue a lot in my job, esp. being in MA....)

When it comes to Revolutionary War reenactors, we prefer to work with the Brigade of the American Revolution, the British Brigade, and the Continental Line, when it comes to Revolutionary War reenactment umbrella orgs. These guys we can trust, from past experience with them.

So, reenactments are not going to be banned, but until the American people stop suing each other at the drop of a hat, and reenactors get consistent standards across the board in what can be a hobby as dangerous as any other, and until we can end the gun-phobia and ignorance on the part of the general public, something will have to change.

There are many in this country on both sides of the political aisles who see battle reenactments as glorification of war, and some see the maudlin portrayal of casualties in a national park as being demeaning toward the real sacrifice of those who fought and died on that hallowed ground. Opposing fire (aiming directly at others) and ramming down cartridges with ramrods are a strict no-no, since some have fired ramrods and pieces of ramrods or cleaning tools at each other inadvertently.

National parks weren't designed with reenactors in mind, esp. in large groups. Individual reenactors who take the time to learn how to educate the public, and to follow the safety rules and historical guidelines are welcome. Those who are not, however, are welcome to visit in civvies, but coming in uninvited as reenactors and reenactment units is not a good idea. We run a tight ship at our park, history- and safety-wise, and have not had an accident in years on staff or with our volunteers, or with invited reenactor groups. We do perform some distant opposed firing, and maneuvers are allowed on various occasions (in fact, we push the regs more than most parks) but we do it in strict coordination with the various groups and require they furnish proof of training and insurance.

That's the straight dope on that issue, at least from this "grunt" 's point of view, which encompasses both sides.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 10:35:02 PM EDT
I used the link.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 10:39:19 PM EDT
The reenactments at The Stones River battlefield in Murfreesboro TN was always nice to attend. They were still doing it at the battlefield up to last year.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 5:41:06 AM EDT
.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 5:47:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 5:57:26 AM EDT
yeah gawd forbid we try and remember history....






best time i ever had,, still doing it down here in Fla,, as far as i know!
you learn so much more from these guys and their camps than you would from a one sided history class!

Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:09:52 AM EDT
I think they are just mad because the south wins everytime
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:10:35 AM EDT
Remember, I'm typing this at 2 AM.....


NEWS FLASH!

Reenactments as we understand them, incl. simulation of casualties, aimed fire, and rapid cannon fire, have been BANNED from ALL National Historic Parks and National Battlefield Parks since the 1960s.

WHY?


STUPID REENACTORS!

People who did lots of unsafe things like fire live ammo at each other, have premature ignition or hangfires occur in small arms and artillery, accidental spearings with bayonets, to name just a few of the more egregious things done. There are some REAL yahoos out there, and American Civil War reenactment seems to have the most, for various reasons. (One, ACW attracts more people into its ranks, and two, some of them still think the war's going on...)

People getting limbs blown off by cannons they were loading at reenactments in Civil War national battlefield parks in the 1960s brought all kinds of bad publicity, personal injury lawsuits, calls for hearings in Congress, and curbs of Congressional funding for the NPS, which is a branch of the Department of the Interior.

Also, couple these problems with the fact that a lot of reenactors pass on bad history to the public in the form of urban legends, as well as often not know how to deal with the public, and the NPS's mission, which is to preserve the important places and structures in which our nation's history and character were formed, and to educate the US people- all of them- about it, gets muddled. Perhaps with this understood, then you might see why the NPS looks askance at many -but not all- reenactors.(more below on the latter point)

And now, of course, the liability issue nowadays is phenomenal. The NPS gets sued by hundreds of people every year. Everybody is looking in to cashing in on Uncle $ugar, for the most bizarre reasons. People just don't seem to understand that you shouldn't walk up to the muzzle of a cannon while it's firing to look at the pretty colors, or that you can't ride your motorcycle on a historic farm road in a national park, even though it's posted, "NO VEHICLES". You can't smoke cigarettes inside historic houses, because they burn down REAL fast, and by Congressional law CANNOT be rebuilt.

How do I know all this?

I am a Revolutionary War reenactor, for the past ten years, and am also a park ranger (historical interpretation) for the National Park Service here in MA.

I shoot guns every day in my job, in demonstrations for the public as part of our education and interpretation programs. I have to follow strict safety protocols and pass rigorous tests, both formal and unannounced for carrying, firing, loading, misfire situations and cleaning. I see some bizarre shit go on with reenactors and weapons, and frankly, I'm amazed more people don't get hurt. Some groups and umbrella organizations are better than others, and they are the ones the NPS trusts to be safe and give the public good history.

The public love to see guns being shot, and reenactments, and the NPS wants to accommodate them, but it's tough sometimes. Everybody in the reenactment community says "we're not the problem" but somebody is not a problem until they become one. It's not inevitable, but we are all human beings who get inattentive, distracted, or make mistakes. And safety-wise, that's what brings in the lawsuits.

And guess who pays for those lawsuits?

You do, Mr. and Mrs. US Taxpayer.

You are also called Mr. and Mrs. Voter, and we pay attention to that fact, too.

We work at "getting it right" every day, and we have to satisfy EVERYBODY in the USA. Everybody. We have to satisfy the left, the right, atheists, believers, progunners antigunners, public schools, private schools, home schools, universities of every possible stripe. They all pay taxes, they all are Americans, no matter how I personally feel about their beliefs. (Believe me, I bite my tongue a lot in my job, esp. being in MA....)

When it comes to Revolutionary War reenactors, we prefer to work with the Brigade of the American Revolution, the British Brigade, and the Continental Line, when it comes to Revolutionary War reenactment umbrella orgs. These guys we can trust, from past experience with them.

So, reenactments are not going to be banned, but until the American people stop suing each other at the drop of a hat, and reenactors get consistent standards across the board in what can be a hobby as dangerous as any other, and until we can end the gun-phobia and ignorance on the part of the general public, something will have to change.

There are many in this country on both sides of the political aisles who see battle reenactments as glorification of war, and some see the maudlin portrayal of casualties in a national park as being demeaning toward the real sacrifice of those who fought and died on that hallowed ground. Opposing fire (aiming directly at others) and ramming down cartridges with ramrods are a strict no-no, since some have fired ramrods and pieces of ramrods or cleaning tools at each other inadvertently.

National parks weren't designed with reenactors in mind, esp. in large groups. Individual reenactors who take the time to learn how to educate the public, and to follow the safety rules and historical guidelines are welcome. Those who are not, however, are welcome to visit in civvies, but coming in uninvited as reenactors and reenactment units is not a good idea. We run a tight ship at our park, history- and safety-wise, and have not had an accident in years on staff or with our volunteers, or with invited reenactor groups. We do perform some distant opposed firing, and maneuvers are allowed on various occasions (in fact, we push the regs more than most parks) but we do it in strict coordination with the various groups and require they furnish proof of training and insurance.

That's the straight dope on that issue, at least from this "grunt" 's point of view, which encompasses both sides.




As a fellow reenactor, what this man says is true. My unit leaders run a tight ship, but many others don't. I don't blame the Park Service. If you want to get mad, blame the lawsuite happy asswipes, and the slimy lawyers that enable them.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:13:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:14:24 AM EDT
... Thank goodness, it's about damn time!
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:14:29 AM EDT
...as more of our history and heritage get shoved under the rug for PC Feel good BULLSHIT
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:36:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 6:39:15 AM EDT by 95thFoot]

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
this must be a regional thing.

they still have the reinactmnet at ft morgan next to mobile bay every year.



The battle may be done in an adjoinng or nearby field. That's OK, since it's off NPS property and the liability is not on the public's dime. That's how it's currently done in New Orleans for their 1815 battle reenactment/commemoration, not at Chalmette Battlefield (Jean Lafitte) NHP.

One may have a TWD (Tactical weapons demonstration) in National parks, and, when you think about it, that's pretty much what any reenactment is. Nobody's dying or getting blown up, although injuries do occur.

I take part in the annual Germantown battle reenactment in Philadelphia. (private site) In 2002, some moron standing next to me in another group was carrying, unknown to me or everybody else, a fully-loaded powder horn. Somehow, the powder inside ignited, and went KABOOM! It was like a grenade going off. Thankfully we were at extended order and I didn't get hurt, but the back of the guy was covered in a sheet of flame and smoke for a few seconds. Then he tried to blame ME for his powder horn blowing up, God knows how. Loaded powder horns are a mega-no-no at RevWar reenactments, but it didn't stop that clown.

If I'd had my face towards him when it blew up, I'd be blind today. My coat's back was embedded with powder horn shards and the butt of the exploding horn hit me in the back of my neck. Never got an apology from the dumbass either....

You have to watch out for yourself and your unit. Wonder why the NPS has had this long-standing policy of no battle reenactments in its parks? That's why.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:57:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cougar8045:

7.4.8 Battle Reenactments
When performed with the degree of authenticity essential to park interpretive programs, battle reenactments are inherently and unacceptably hazardous to participants and observers. Therefore, battle reenactments that involve exchanges of fire between opposing lines, the taking of casualties, hand-to-hand combat, or any other form of simulated warfare are prohibited in all parks.




Well let's just close the parks so no one gets a boo boo or an owie. Jeez



You're probably right. What can one do in the parks any more? No this, that or the other thing. So, let's close them and stop paying the big bills. They'll be glorified campgrounds for German and Japanese tourists.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 5:54:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 6:02:36 AM EDT by 95thFoot]

Originally Posted By protus:
yeah gawd forbid we try and remember history....






best time i ever had,, still doing it down here in Fla,, as far as i know!
you learn so much more from these guys and their camps than you would from a one sided history class!




How REALLY historic is the above picture? I know everybody is having a great time, but let's get real here. This is the most overweight, best supplied, cleanest and overaged group of rebels or soldiers I've ever seen. This isn't what it looked like back then and no willing suspension of disbelief is going to change that fact. Why don't we just face facts, in that we just love to put on uniforms and blast away with muskets at each other? There's nothing wrong with that, but we have to be real about who we are and what we do.

This is the sort of stuff that gets to the National Park Service. We have paid professional historians who work their asses off trying to get in writing what it looked like back then, and then we reenactors come in and deliver a very different picture.

People come to us in the National Historic and National Battlefield Parks because they want the truth. They don't want filtering- they want it straight, and we give it to them as best we can. They want to know who we are, and how we came to be as a nation. They don't want BS- they get enough of that every day in pop culture and in schools. We have to tell them the truth as we find it, no matter which way the chips fall.

I see some reenactment groups who bring along massive field kitchens, something which really wasn't done much historically on campaign, because the equipment took up too many wagons and horses. The reenacted groups want to live and drink much better than their historic counterparts, to the point that all the kitchen and camp gear they bring along earns the nickname "WOW" = Williamsburg On Wheels.

One member of the public at one event I attended said, upon seeing all this, said, "Wow- these guys lived pretty good. Just what were they fighting for, again?"
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:00:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:09:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
It involves guns and opposition to perceived tyranny. No political agenda in that law!

Sometimes I'm convinced that some people won't be happy until two Cubans in a row boat can capture Washington un-opposed. We'll all be setting in front of our TV's with our imaginary friends and family.

Tj




Yup...

Ban re-enactments of history...

Then start to re-intepret history....

Then re-write history...



It's the Liberal Agenda.



Actually reenactments were promoted in the former East Germany, a Communist country, esp. if they were reenactments of the wars of liberation of the 19th century. Can't get any more "liberal' than East Germany....

One of the BIGGEST showplaces for reenactment is Great Britain. Over there are groups doing everything from Roman Legions to Seven Year's War to Napoleonic to American Civil War (HUGE!!) to WW1, WW2 (incl SS units) to Vietnam. It's everywhere in the UK. I was the guest of the UK 95th Rifles at the English Heritage event in 1999 at Kirby Hall, Corby, Northants. In some ways it's bigger in the UK than in the USA. And a lot of reenactors I met there were antigun (go figure) and I meet a lot of liberals here who do it, too.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:15:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
So let's just switch from enactments to the real deal.

I say we re enact the siezure of this country from an oppressive government.

Tea anyone?



I got the tar, who's bringing the feathers





I've got a coupla old pillows.....................
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:16:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:21:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:


Renectments are very popular here but I refer you to Part Duex... Re-interpretaion.

Example; The Battle of Trafalagar re-enactment. It was the Blue forces vs the Red Forces, no 'British' or 'French' and the 'theme' of the whole re-enactment was the 'shared hardships' of the sailors, not the Royal Navy wiping the floor with the Phrench.

Translation; we are all allies now and we must not admit to fighting each other but celebrate our 'common experiences'.


I refused to attend in protest, neither did my Boss.

ANdy



So did just about all reenactors in the UK. Most participants were active duty sailors ordered to do it. It was by all accounts a complete and utter abortion of history.

I can only imagine somebody trying to do this with a WW2 reenactment. Talk about a "willing suspension of disbelief"....
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:26:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:31:05 AM EDT

I see some reenactment groups who bring along massive field kitchens, something which really wasn't done much historically on campaign, because the equipment took up too many wagons and horses. The reenacted groups want to live and drink much better than their historic counterparts, to the point that all the kitchen and camp gear they bring along earns the nickname "WOW" = Williamsburg On Wheels.


On the other extreme, perhaps they should be starved and deprived of medical services for several weeks until they all lose some weight and limbs. Than feed them hard tack and coffee made from roots and tree bark. When enough die from dysentary, TB, whooping cough, and yellow fever, they may perform reenactments to the exacting standards of historians.

Reenactments are a hobby for the actors and it's edutainment for the audience. I wouldn't expect the actors to purposefully hack off their own limbs or fast so as to appear emaciated just to look the part. Representative uniforms, tactics, and weapon demos are enough. To think that a sterile academic approach to teaching people about history works best is to ignore the majority of people who go to the parks with their families to look at the exhibits, read a pamphlet or two, and watch a reenactment.

As for actors loading up live ammunition: WTF?
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:41:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tango7:
Click on the "Comment on Document" button on the left side of the page.


Done!

"Your proposals to eliminate historical reenactments on what's supposed to be PUBLIC lands because someone might get hurt is ridiculous and unwarranted! I have taken my family and friends to the local battlefields here to see reenactments for YEARS and in all that time I don't think I've ever seen anything worse than a case of heat exhaustion.

These reenactments are extremely important to our history as they give us a glimmer of what it was like to live, fight, and die during turbulent times.

Political correctness and government nannyism must die a quick and horrible death for the sake of our nation and all it stands for. I hope the people who proposed this ban find their careers cut short.

Drop this proposal. I will be writing my congressional representatives adamantly opposing your ban."
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:45:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 6:46:46 AM EDT by 95thFoot]

Originally Posted By CK1:

I see some reenactment groups who bring along massive field kitchens, something which really wasn't done much historically on campaign, because the equipment took up too many wagons and horses. The reenacted groups want to live and drink much better than their historic counterparts, to the point that all the kitchen and camp gear they bring along earns the nickname "WOW" = Williamsburg On Wheels.


On the other extreme, perhaps they should be starved and deprived of medical services for several weeks until they all lose some weight and limbs. Than feed them hard tack and coffee made from roots and tree bark. When enough die from dysentary, TB, whooping cough, and yellow fever, they may perform reenactments to the exacting standards of historians.

Reenactments are a hobby for the actors and it's edutainment for the audience. I wouldn't expect the actors to purposefully hack off their own limbs or fast so as to appear emaciated just to look the part. Representative uniforms, tactics, and weapon demos are enough. To think that a sterile academic approach to teaching people about history works best is to ignore the majority of people who go to the parks with their families to look at the exhibits, read a pamphlet or two, and watch a reenactment.




So in other words, reenactors shouldn't bother trying to get it right within legal and health strictures? Where did I advocate cutting off limbs or starving oneself? (Although, let's face it a trip to Jenny Craig couldn't hurt some of these guys...)

You've set up a straw man argument which basically says: why bother? Why try to show people how it really was as best we can? Why try harder? All people want is bread-and-circuses entertainment between the puppet shows and face painting, over by the Kettle Korn vendor.

Sounds like a bad gun show.


As for actors loading up live ammunition: WTF?


On several occasions in the 1960s, some reenactors, in the days before repro guns were available were bringing along, besides ORIGINAL guns, everything from BB guns and 1903 Springfields and M1s to Civil War reenactments in National Parks, Sometimes they'd accidentally mix in real ammo with blanks. Yes, one has to be pretty stupid to do that. But is still occasionally happens. Remember the guy at Gettysburg a few years ago who got a pistol bullet in the neck, because some walk-on French guy fired a pistol loaded with ball that nobody bothered to check before renting it to him?
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:48:18 AM EDT
I know that we're focusing on American Rev and Civil War reenactments but this rule also applies to Medieval reenactments were people strap on armor and swords
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:50:19 AM EDT
How many people are actually injured doing re-enactments? I'm sure their numbers and rate of injury are much less than others users of the National Parks, such as hikers, snowmobilers, rockclimbers etc. the re-enactors just get a little more notice because their chosen hobby requires firearms or repro firearms.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:57:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TomF32:
How many people are actually injured doing re-enactments? I'm sure their numbers and rate of injury are much less than others users of the National Parks, such as hikers, snowmobilers, rockclimbers etc. the re-enactors just get a little more notice because their chosen hobby requires firearms or repro firearms.



Somebody who finally gets it! It's gun-phobia and ignorance on the part of the public who are also voters and taxpayers. I have had visitors to my workplace, a National Historic Park, who are horrified by me showing their kids a flintlock musket.

soccer mom: "I don't want my kids to ever see a gun!!"

(Kids are utterly fascinated, as a result, by any kind of gun....)


Me: "Ma'am, this is a battlefield. People died right where you are standing in that battle. Americans got their freedom using guns. No matter what we might have for opinions regarding guns nowadays, we can't ignore the fact that they were used here to achieve our freedoms."

soccer mom: splutter, splutter...

Link Posted: 12/19/2005 7:11:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mcantu:
I know that we're focusing on American Rev and Civil War reenactments but this rule also applies to Medieval reenactments were people strap on armor and swords



I doubt you're going to find a National Park that will let a RenFaire or SCA event take place on its grounds, since it has nothing to do with US history. We had a few try to bring their show unannounced to our park and we basically chased them out, nicely though. Their justification for coming to the park in chain mail, bodices and broadswords? "We're reenactors too...."

Some of the women accompanying Sir Osis of the Liver and Sir Loin of Beef were actually kinda cute, I must admit....
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 7:14:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 7:52:17 AM EDT by CK1]

So in other words, reenactors shouldn't bother trying to get it right within legal and health strictures? Where did I advocate cutting off limbs or starving oneself? (Although, let's face it a trip to Jenny Craig couldn't hurt some of these guys...)

You've set up a straw man argument which basically says: why bother? Why try to show people how it really was as best we can? Why try harder? All people want is bread-and-circuses entertainment between the puppet shows and face painting, over by the Kettle Korn vendor.



No, you didn't advocate hacking off limbs and starvation but you did argue for very exacting historian's standard of accuracy. Not a straw man's argument but reductio absurdum.

My argument isn't for either extreme- that's you putting words into my mouth (keyboard, in this case). It's for something in the middle. I hoped readers would pick up my use of the words "other extreme" and understand that to imply a dichotomy.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 7:26:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:
Remember, I'm typing this at 2 AM.....


NEWS FLASH!

Reenactments as we understand them, incl. simulation of casualties, aimed fire, and rapid cannon fire, have been BANNED from ALL National Historic Parks and National Battlefield Parks since the 1960s.




Thank you for a little truth lol.

My buddy does Civil War re-enacting, and he told me this a long time ago. He also told me they're not allowed to carry their ramrods with them while re-enacting...too many guys were forgetting to remove them from the barrel before they shot...thus launching them at their opponents lol.

Anyway, if I'm not mistaken, Cedar Creek in VA is the only civil war battle re-enactment on the real, honest to god location of the battle.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 7:34:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
It involves guns and opposition to perceived tyranny. No political agenda in that law!

Sometimes I'm convinced that some people won't be happy until two Cubans in a row boat can capture Washington un-opposed. We'll all be setting in front of our TV's with our imaginary friends and family.

Tj




Yup...

Ban re-enactments of history... working....

Then start to re-intepret history....working.....

Then re-write history...planned.....



It's the Liberal Agenda.

Link Posted: 12/19/2005 8:05:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 8:05:55 AM EDT by 95thFoot]

Originally Posted By Fenian:

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:
Remember, I'm typing this at 2 AM.....


NEWS FLASH!

Reenactments as we understand them, incl. simulation of casualties, aimed fire, and rapid cannon fire, have been BANNED from ALL National Historic Parks and National Battlefield Parks since the 1960s.




Thank you for a little truth lol.

My buddy does Civil War re-enacting, and he told me this a long time ago. He also told me they're not allowed to carry their ramrods with them while re-enacting...too many guys were forgetting to remove them from the barrel before they shot...thus launching them at their opponents lol.

Anyway, if I'm not mistaken, Cedar Creek in VA is the only civil war battle re-enactment on the real, honest to god location of the battle.



Because it's on privately or state-owned land, not Federal.

Speaking of state-owned land, the rule about no ramrods on the field is ONLY in the State of Pennsylvania, on state sites. Ramrods have to be left back in camp. Otherwise at most reenactments where there is opposing fire (or not, such as at NPS sites), ramrods are not used in loading in tactical weapons displays ("battles"). They remain on the guns themselves. The powder is poured down the barrel from paper cartridges, then the paper is discarded, since, in the past, some clueless reenactors have fastened the cartridges together with staples and/or glue, which, at close range, can be extremely hazardous to other people's health.

Oddly enough, I have used ramrods on the field in the UK, but not in the US or Canada, where lawyers sue, and juries award, big time. (Yes, it happens in Canada, too.) In the UK, if you do something stupid with a gun at a reenactment, you get arrested by the omnipresent police at reenactments.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 8:07:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:

..........If I'd had my face towards him when it blew up, I'd be blind today. My coat's back was embedded with powder horn shards and the butt of the exploding horn hit me in the back of my neck. Never got an apology from the dumbass either....

You have to watch out for yourself and your unit. Wonder why the NPS has had this long-standing policy of no battle reenactments in its parks? That's why.




Would it have been "historically accurate" to have butt stroked him with your Brown Bess?
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 8:14:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 8:14:40 AM EDT by 95thFoot]

Originally Posted By callgood:

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:

..........If I'd had my face towards him when it blew up, I'd be blind today. My coat's back was embedded with powder horn shards and the butt of the exploding horn hit me in the back of my neck. Never got an apology from the dumbass either....

You have to watch out for yourself and your unit. Wonder why the NPS has had this long-standing policy of no battle reenactments in its parks? That's why.




Would it have been "historically accurate" to have butt stroked him with your Brown Bess?





[montyburns]Smithers, get me that man's name! I like the cut of that saucy fellow's jib![/montyburns]

In truth I was too stunned- literally, shell-shocked. The rest of the day I had to watch myself and not overreact to loud noises, at least when I could hear them.....I'm OK, now....I think....

I found out recently the SOB with the exploding powder horn is a personal injury lawyer in real life. Go figure!!
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 8:32:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 9:14:37 AM EDT by red65]
too stupid

Link Posted: 12/19/2005 8:35:54 AM EDT
How come that document does not mention the ban on firearms in the parks?
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 8:59:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By imposter:
How come that document does not mention the ban on firearms in the parks?



Because that's considered a given. But law enforcement rangers can have differing opinions. One told me, re CCW firearms, "If I don't see it, it doesn't exist."
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 9:21:12 AM EDT
Well of course...a someone might get curious, do a little research and find out that the U.S. Civil War WASN'T about slavery after all....

Can't have THAT.

SG
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:52:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ScaryGuy:
Well of course...a someone might get curious, do a little research and find out that the U.S. Civil War WASN'T about slavery after all....

Can't have THAT.

SG



At the national park I work at, we tell people that, and make a big point of it.

Esp. since people in MA such as Emerson, Thoreau and others were the exception in that they believed the American Civil War was the continuation of the American Revolution. They believed everybody, including slaves, should be set free. They and many others in MA were ardent abolitionists. Men such as Ezra Ripley from Concord, descendant of Rev. War veterans as were so many others who enlisted to fight in 1861 in Massachusetts, saw what they were doing, in fighting to end slavery, as just the completion of the work started by their forefathers at Concord and Lexington in 1775.

As part of NPS policy and guidelines, I deliver talks to the public describing this exception, quite often.

However, in Civil War national parks, there has been a political move to put in reminders of slavery and the cost of it on every memorial and battlefield wayside (those info signs you see in Nat. Parks) by Jesse Jackson's son who is a congressman from IL. I don't know whether it ever got passed. My job in the park I work at keeps me quite busy so I don't always know what goes on outside the region.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:10:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
It involves guns and opposition to perceived tyranny. No political agenda in that law!

Sometimes I'm convinced that some people won't be happy until two Cubans in a row boat can capture Washington un-opposed. We'll all be setting in front of our TV's with our imaginary friends and family.

Tj




Yup...

Ban re-enactments of history...

Then start to re-intepret history....

Then re-write history...



It's the Liberal Agenda.



"He who controls the past controls the future; he who controls the present controls the past."
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