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Posted: 12/17/2005 6:20:48 AM EDT

She uses FACTS to step you through the issue. Don't drink the Kool-Aid the media is pouring.


Link
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 6:42:03 AM EDT
I want to shag Michelle Malkin and then lay in bed smoking a cigarette and talk politics.

I've read a lot of her articles. Good stuff.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 6:50:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By C-4:
I want to shag Michelle Malkin and then lay in bed smoking a cigarette and talk politics.

I've read a lot of her articles. Good stuff.



Frog, smog, and blog?
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 6:52:00 AM EDT
You just gotta love the new york times huh..........
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 6:59:22 AM EDT
Bush Apologizes for Phone Taps After 9/11

by Scott Ott

(2005-12-16) — President George Bush today apologized to the American people for signing an order in 2002 that allowed the National Security Agency (NSA) to secretly listen in on international phone calls in the wake of the 9/11 terror attacks.

The New York Times today broke the story that after 9/11 the NSA tapped phonelines of hundreds, and perhaps thousands, of Americans without court orders in an effort to trace communication networks discovered on computers and cellphones confiscated from terror suspects.

“I want to apologize for allowing the NSA to do these wiretaps after 9/11,” the president said. “I’m sorry that I violated the privacy of some of these folks after terrorists launched attacks from our soil that killed 3,000 people, destroyed two skyscrapers and four jumbo jets, and punched a gaping hole in our military headquarters.”

“My biggest regret,” the president added, “is that the NSA didn’t secretly tap these lines before 9/11. I hope my fellow Americans can forgive me.”
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 7:14:58 AM EDT
I can't believe you guys are still frothing at the mouth over terror. To still be afraid of terrorists has got to be the most successful manipulation of fear I've ever heard of. Something like twelve times more Americans died of suicide than died in terror attacks in 2001. And they took out two whole office buildings.

This whole War on Terror thing is stupid. Bush is obviously not even interested in protecting the people of the US... he's not doing anything about our southern border, can't keep straight where the Middle Easterners are who are here on visas (expired or not) and doesn't seem concerned with protecting the civil liberties of the citizens. He's a disaster on all counts, and he's bankrupting your children with his ubelievable spending programs.

Pfft.

Are you really still afraid of terrorists?
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 7:18:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:
I can't believe you guys are still frothing at the mouth over terror. To still be afraid of terrorists has got to be the most successful manipulation of fear I've ever heard of. Something like twelve times more Americans died of suicide than died in terror attacks in 2001. And they took out two whole office buildings.

This whole War on Terror thing is stupid. Bush is obviously not even interested in protecting the people of the US... he's not doing anything about our southern border, can't keep straight where the Middle Easterners are who are here on visas (expired or not) and doesn't seem concerned with protecting the civil liberties of the citizens. He's a disaster on all counts, and he's bankrupting your children with his ubelievable spending programs.

Pfft.

Are you really still afraid of terrorists?



this is true, and even worse the dems won't do shit about it either. I just don't get it, they could be nailing his ass to the floor over this issue but they give him a free pass on it?
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 7:29:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:
I can't believe you guys are still frothing at the mouth over terror. To still be afraid of terrorists has got to be the most successful manipulation of fear I've ever heard of. Something like twelve times more Americans died of suicide than died in terror attacks in 2001. And they took out two whole office buildings.
This whole War on Terror thing is stupid. Bush is obviously not even interested in protecting the people of the US... he's not doing anything about our southern border, can't keep straight where the Middle Easterners are who are here on visas (expired or not) and doesn't seem concerned with protecting the civil liberties of the citizens. He's a disaster on all counts, and he's bankrupting your children with his ubelievable spending programs.

Pfft.

Are you really still afraid of terrorists?



You are missing a very crucial point. Every one of the people who cimmit suicide knew they were going to die and wanted it to happen. Those people who went to work on 9/11 didn't want to die and had no idea that they would
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 7:31:18 AM EDT
This thread is WORTHLESS without:



sigh......


Link Posted: 12/17/2005 7:36:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 7:40:23 AM EDT by Peak_Oil]

Originally Posted By sydney7629:

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:
I can't believe you guys are still frothing at the mouth over terror. To still be afraid of terrorists has got to be the most successful manipulation of fear I've ever heard of. Something like twelve times more Americans died of suicide than died in terror attacks in 2001. And they took out two whole office buildings.
This whole War on Terror thing is stupid. Bush is obviously not even interested in protecting the people of the US... he's not doing anything about our southern border, can't keep straight where the Middle Easterners are who are here on visas (expired or not) and doesn't seem concerned with protecting the civil liberties of the citizens. He's a disaster on all counts, and he's bankrupting your children with his ubelievable spending programs.

Pfft.

Are you really still afraid of terrorists?



You are missing a very crucial point. Every one of the people who cimmit suicide knew they were going to die and wanted it to happen. Those people who went to work on 9/11 didn't want to die and had no idea that they would



Also, suicide was the 10th most common cause of death. The #1 cause of death was more than 26 times more numerous (ETA: more numerous than suicide). And we sure as hell haven't spent 500 billion dollars this year trying to fix that one. Unless you count building schools and roads and utilities and whatnot in BAGHDAD!!!

I think Bush's priorities are way out of line.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 7:39:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 7:40:00 AM EDT by fiend]
.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 7:41:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:

Originally Posted By sydney7629:

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:
I can't believe you guys are still frothing at the mouth over terror. To still be afraid of terrorists has got to be the most successful manipulation of fear I've ever heard of. Something like twelve times more Americans died of suicide than died in terror attacks in 2001. And they took out two whole office buildings.
This whole War on Terror thing is stupid. Bush is obviously not even interested in protecting the people of the US... he's not doing anything about our southern border, can't keep straight where the Middle Easterners are who are here on visas (expired or not) and doesn't seem concerned with protecting the civil liberties of the citizens. He's a disaster on all counts, and he's bankrupting your children with his ubelievable spending programs.

Pfft.

Are you really still afraid of terrorists?



You are missing a very crucial point. Every one of the people who cimmit suicide knew they were going to die and wanted it to happen. Those people who went to work on 9/11 didn't want to die and had no idea that they would



Also, suicide was the 10th most common cause of death. The #1 cause of death was more than 26 times more numerous. And we sure as hell haven't spent 500 billion dollars this year trying to fix that one. Unless you count building schools and roads and utilities and whatnot in BAGHDAD!!!

I think Bush's priorities are way out of line.



You're missing the big picture. That single act that took about 90 minutes on 9/11 took the lives of 3,000 people but it affected the entire nation in so many more ways. People across the country were terrified and it wasn't the Bush Administration's propaganda that made them feel that way. Also, look at the effects on our economy. Over 1,000,000 jobs lost in the 3 months following that event.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 7:43:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:
I can't believe you guys are still frothing at the mouth over terror. To still be afraid of terrorists has got to be the most successful manipulation of fear I've ever heard of.



Yeah, it is better than "for the children". It pretty much justifies anything.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 7:45:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RenegadeX:

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:
I can't believe you guys are still frothing at the mouth over terror. To still be afraid of terrorists has got to be the most successful manipulation of fear I've ever heard of.



Yeah, it is better than "for the children". It pretty much justifies anything.



One day it will be domestic terrorism, you go against what the Government says and you will be labeled a domestic terrorist, thrown into a cell forever.

We are traveling down a slippery slope, a very slippery slope.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 7:48:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:
I can't believe you guys are still frothing at the mouth over terror. To still be afraid of terrorists has got to be the most successful manipulation of fear I've ever heard of.



Ah yes, the classic Democrat's Solution To Terrorism: Deny that it exists.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:13:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 8:20:00 AM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:

Are you really still afraid of terrorists?



That there are actually people that believe the imbecilic crap you just posted scares me more.

Problem with your kind of blind stupidity is it gets other people that you killed.

You once again show an outstanding ability to post stupidest BS possible on any given day. You are well on your way to earning a Darwin award I just hope you don't take to many others with you.

Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:21:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:

Are you really still afraid of terrorists?



That there are actually people that believe the imbecilic crap you just posted scares me more.

Problem with your kind of blind stupidity is it gets other people that you killed.

You once again show an outstanding ability to post stupidest BS possible on any given day. There must be an award for this kind of blindness other than the Darwin award you are well on your way to earning




You can't handle the danger that comes with living in a free society. There is danger in the world, Mike, and that's how it goes. You can also surrender your liberty to an oppressive government IN ADDITION to having the danger of terrorism around you.

Surrendering your freedom doesn't do anything to alleviate the danger of living in a free world.

I would rather have the danger of terrorism without the oppresive governmental intrusion into my private life, rather than have the danger of terrorism AND the police state breathing down my neck every time I wake up in the morning.

It is certain that our liberties are slipping away. It is extremely unlikely that I, or anyone I know, or anyone that YOU know, will be injured or killed in a terror attack. Handle the most likely problem first.

Try to gain some perspective on this. Take a step back and think with the human part of the brain, not the monkey part of the brain.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:36:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:
You can't handle the danger that comes with living in a free society. There is danger in the world, Mike, and that's how it goes. You can also surrender your liberty to an oppressive government IN ADDITION to having the danger of terrorism around you.

Surrendering your freedom doesn't do anything to alleviate the danger of living in a free world.

I would rather have the danger of terrorism without the oppresive governmental intrusion into my private life, rather than have the danger of terrorism AND the police state breathing down my neck every time I wake up in the morning.

It is certain that our liberties are slipping away. It is extremely unlikely that I, or anyone I know, or anyone that YOU know, will be injured or killed in a terror attack. Handle the most likely problem first.

Try to gain some perspective on this. Take a step back and think with the human part of the brain, not the monkey part of the brain.



Bullshit… you haven’t lost any liberty…

A monkey is smarter than that, you are like a damn parrot spouting the current cliché’ bullshit. Garbage in garbage out… the parrot spouts garbage.

Problem is your parrot bullshit if applied will get people other than yourself killed. If you are that dense find then die off but you ain't taking me with you.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:41:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:
I can't believe you guys are still frothing at the mouth over terror. To still be afraid of terrorists has got to be the most successful manipulation of fear I've ever heard of. Something like twelve times more Americans died of suicide than died in terror attacks in 2001. And they took out two whole office buildings.

This whole War on Terror thing is stupid. Bush is obviously not even interested in protecting the people of the US... he's not doing anything about our southern border, can't keep straight where the Middle Easterners are who are here on visas (expired or not) and doesn't seem concerned with protecting the civil liberties of the citizens. He's a disaster on all counts, and he's bankrupting your children with his ubelievable spending programs.

Pfft.

Are you really still afraid of terrorists?



+1 Lots of people are afraid of the boogeyman.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:42:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:

Originally Posted By sydney7629:

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:
I can't believe you guys are still frothing at the mouth over terror. To still be afraid of terrorists has got to be the most successful manipulation of fear I've ever heard of. Something like twelve times more Americans died of suicide than died in terror attacks in 2001. And they took out two whole office buildings.
This whole War on Terror thing is stupid. Bush is obviously not even interested in protecting the people of the US... he's not doing anything about our southern border, can't keep straight where the Middle Easterners are who are here on visas (expired or not) and doesn't seem concerned with protecting the civil liberties of the citizens. He's a disaster on all counts, and he's bankrupting your children with his ubelievable spending programs.

Pfft.

Are you really still afraid of terrorists?



You are missing a very crucial point. Every one of the people who cimmit suicide knew they were going to die and wanted it to happen. Those people who went to work on 9/11 didn't want to die and had no idea that they would



Also, suicide was the 10th most common cause of death. The #1 cause of death was more than 26 times more numerous (ETA: more numerous than suicide). And we sure as hell haven't spent 500 billion dollars this year trying to fix that one. Unless you count building schools and roads and utilities and whatnot in BAGHDAD!!!

I think Bush's priorities are way out of line.



Anyone who believes 'peak oil' is a threat shouldn't be commenting on other people's priorities.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:47:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:

Are you really still afraid of terrorists?



That there are actually people that believe the imbecilic crap you just posted scares me more.

Problem with your kind of blind stupidity is it gets other people that you killed.

You once again show an outstanding ability to post stupidest BS possible on any given day. There must be an award for this kind of blindness other than the Darwin award you are well on your way to earning




You can't handle the danger that comes with living in a free society. There is danger in the world, Mike, and that's how it goes. You can also surrender your liberty to an oppressive government IN ADDITION to having the danger of terrorism around you.

Surrendering your freedom doesn't do anything to alleviate the danger of living in a free world.

I would rather have the danger of terrorism without the oppresive governmental intrusion into my private life, rather than have the danger of terrorism AND the police state breathing down my neck every time I wake up in the morning.

It is certain that our liberties are slipping away. It is extremely unlikely that I, or anyone I know, or anyone that YOU know, will be injured or killed in a terror attack. Handle the most likely problem first.

Try to gain some perspective on this. Take a step back and think with the human part of the brain, not the monkey part of the brain.




I'm willing to bet that 3,000 families thought the same thing a little while ago. Boy were they wrong
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:48:09 AM EDT
You're still more likely to die of lots of other things. Check out this awesome cause of death query machine, courtesy of the CDC:

webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/leadcaus10.html

You can find some fascinating info by playing with the options.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 9:04:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 9:08:17 AM EDT by Spade]
Yeah, you're more likely to die of other things. Unless the terrorists of the world or their supporters get their hands on something nasty, and then all bets are off. But hey, go ahead and ignore the problem until it blows up a VX shell in your face.


Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:
And they took out two whole office buildings.

This whole War on Terror thing is stupid.

Are you really still afraid of terrorists?





lol

You really don't have any idea what you're talking about.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 9:14:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 9:27:09 AM EDT by Hmanjr]

Originally Posted By sydney7629:
You're missing the big picture. That single act that took about 90 minutes on 9/11 took the lives of 3,000 people but it affected the entire nation in so many more ways. People across the country were terrified and it wasn't the Bush Administration's propaganda that made them feel that way. Also, look at the effects on our economy. Over 1,000,000 jobs lost in the 3 months following that event.



One of the many reasons I'm happy we are anywhere killing terrorists. For what it cost us.

I'd like to see the number of jobs lost and the cost of illegal aliens, publicized enough to drown out the pro-illegal people. I'd support a war on illegal aliens in a heartbeat.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 9:18:51 AM EDT
'For when I have time' tag.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 9:33:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Spade:
Yeah, you're more likely to die of other things. Unless the terrorists of the world or their supporters get their hands on something nasty, and then all bets are off. But hey, go ahead and ignore the problem until it blows up a VX shell in your face.


Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:
And they took out two whole office buildings.

This whole War on Terror thing is stupid.

Are you really still afraid of terrorists?



lol

You really don't have any idea what you're talking about.



There is no way to remove all danger from the world. You cannot nerf everything. There is very real danger and suffering in the world. Look at the savage butchery currently taking place in Africa, the riots and governmental intrusion in China, the economic collapse in Argentina, the horrible poverty in India. There is a great deal in the world that is horrible.

We are not immune to suffering and danger here in the US.

We have, however, been free of its shadow for many years, and life has been good to us. We have known a kind of freedom that is wonderful to behold.

One time, a terrorist gets his hands on a plane and slams it into an office building killing 3000 innocent people. Based on this, you're ready to have our government tap your phone, search your house, hold American citizens without evidence or a trial, etc etc etc.

I don't have a problem with the war in Iraq, but for reasons other than this BS war on terror. There are other things that are much more dangerous to you and I than terrorism.

1. Illegal immigration
2. Cancer and heart disease
3. Economic growth
4. Securing the natural resources REQUIRED to maintain our way of life

Terrorism, the death of 3,000 innocent people, is more important than having something like 20 MILLION illegal immigrants here in the US? Is it more important than the death of 800,000 innocent Americans by heart disease? Is it more important than the stagnation of our economy for the last five or six years?

There is no comparison. Call a spade a spade and take responsibility for our collective security. But, point the guns in the RIGHT FUCKING DIRECTION!!!!!
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 9:47:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:

Originally Posted By Spade:
Yeah, you're more likely to die of other things. Unless the terrorists of the world or their supporters get their hands on something nasty, and then all bets are off. But hey, go ahead and ignore the problem until it blows up a VX shell in your face.


Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:
And they took out two whole office buildings.

This whole War on Terror thing is stupid.

Are you really still afraid of terrorists?



lol

You really don't have any idea what you're talking about.



There is no way to remove all danger from the world. You cannot nerf everything. There is very real danger and suffering in the world. Look at the savage butchery currently taking place in Africa, the riots and governmental intrusion in China, the economic collapse in Argentina, the horrible poverty in India. There is a great deal in the world that is horrible.

We are not immune to suffering and danger here in the US.

We have, however, been free of its shadow for many years, and life has been good to us. We have known a kind of freedom that is wonderful to behold.

One time, a terrorist gets his hands on a plane and slams it into an office building killing 3000 innocent people. Based on this, you're ready to have our government tap your phone, search your house, hold American citizens without evidence or a trial, etc etc etc.

I don't have a problem with the war in Iraq, but for reasons other than this BS war on terror. There are other things that are much more dangerous to you and I than terrorism.

1. Illegal immigration (What can I say, both political parties are pussies on this one)
2. Cancer and heart disease (Do you have any idea how much we have spent on these already?)
3. Economic growth (We have some of the most robust economic growth in the last 20 years)
4. Securing the natural resources REQUIRED to maintain our way of life (Blame the Dems for filibustering every Energy Bill that will not allow us to secure our own natural resources)

Terrorism, the death of 3,000 innocent people, is more important than having something like 20 MILLION illegal immigrants here in the US? Is it more important than the death of 800,000 innocent Americans by heart disease? Is it more important than the stagnation of our economy for the last five or six years?

There is no comparison. Call a spade a spade and take responsibility for our collective security. But, point the guns in the RIGHT FUCKING DIRECTION!!!!!



Link Posted: 12/17/2005 10:00:08 AM EDT


1. Illegal immigration (What can I say, both political parties are pussies on this one)

true, true.

2. Cancer and heart disease (Do you have any idea how much we have spent on these already?)

I wonder if an extra 500 billion dollars might have helped a little.

3. Economic growth (We have some of the most robust economic growth in the last 20 years)

No, we haven't.

The most robust growth in the last 20 years happened between 1985 and 2000, which is exactly the opposite of what you've said.

Here is the proof.

But since you won't click on the link, I'll summarize.

Dec. 17, 1985 S&P 500 = 210.65
Dec. 17, 2000 S&P 500 = 1312.15
Dec. 17, 2005 S&P 500 = 1267.32

4. Securing the natural resources REQUIRED to maintain our way of life (Blame the Dems for filibustering every Energy Bill that will not allow us to secure our own natural resources)

I'm not going to bite on this one, it's a totally different subject. Let's just say that time will make more converts than reason. Anybody use natural gas for their heating or electricity generation? Do some homework on NG availability. And prices.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 11:06:56 AM EDT
9/11 was much more than just 3000 Americans being murdered. It put our economy into a tail-spin that took two years to recover. The total damage to our economy was estimated at close to a trillion dollars. Over a million people lost their jobs as a direct result of 9/11. The fact that a handful of terrorists can damage the USA like this should be a wakeup call to those that doubt the need for the war on terror.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 11:11:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 11:16:27 AM EDT by -brass-]
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 11:36:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 11:36:54 AM EDT by Peak_Oil]

Originally Posted By -brass-:

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:



The most robust growth in the last 20 years happened between 1985 and 2000, which is exactly the opposite of what you've said.

Here is the proof.
.



Look at it on a linear instead of log: Here, compared with DOW & NASDAQ

You will see the boom went from 95 to 04 with a bit of a hit after 9/11, biggest spike was the dotcom boom/crash in 2000, smooth out that spike, and we are still on an upward trend.



I disagree. The runup started in 1980, and you can't smooth out spikes. That's the data, you have to take it as it is. Why would you smooth out the spike? You don't like it? I don't think that's sufficient.

You don't get to assume away data that you don't like.

Also check the 200 day moving average.

1970-1975 92 to 89. Not a huge 5-year move. Slightly negative.
1975-1980 92 to 133. Not too shabby, not too huge.
1980-1985 133 to 210. Sizeable move. Up roughly 50%
1985-1990 210 to 326. Sizeable move. Up roughly 50%
1990-1995 330-616. Another sizeable move. Up roughly 100%
1995-2000 615-1312 Another sizeable move. Up roughly 100%
2000-2005 1320-1267 Flat as a board.

Or, you can assume away the facts.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 11:37:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:
9/11 was much more than just 3000 Americans being murdered. It put our economy into a tail-spin that took two years to recover. The total damage to our economy was estimated at close to a trillion dollars. Over a million people lost their jobs as a direct result of 9/11. The fact that a handful of terrorists can damage the USA like this should be a wakeup call to those that doubt the need for the war on terror.



The fact is, what we are doing will not prevent another terrorist attack. Do you realize how easy it would be for one of our many Arab national chemistry grad students to make any kind of explosive or chemical weapon known? Answer: very fucking easy. How about white converts, I know quite a few white Muslim converts who are in the advanced physics and chemical disciplines, the former group CAN design a nuclear bomb and give those designs to our enemy, the latter can manufacture VX and Sarin gas with minimal investment. In spite of this, many people here act as if wire-taps and international communication monitoring will do much of anything to prevent a future attack; it won't, because the enemy is a lot smarter now, probably keeping all communications domestic except for sending "runners" to other countries like mexico to communicate with leaders overseas.

What Peak Oil is saying, that even with the minimal risk of another terrorist attack, nothing we are doing is going to prevent another one from occuring. Look at the stats, Al-Qaida's membership is up over 1800% since 9/11, and we still have countless Arabs, Pakistani, and Indonesian individuals here in this country on VISAs. We are in as much danger today of a terrorist attack as we were on 9/10.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 12:22:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 12:23:32 PM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:

Originally Posted By -brass-:

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:



The most robust growth in the last 20 years happened between 1985 and 2000, which is exactly the opposite of what you've said.

Here is the proof.
.



Look at it on a linear instead of log: Here, compared with DOW & NASDAQ

You will see the boom went from 95 to 04 with a bit of a hit after 9/11, biggest spike was the dotcom boom/crash in 2000, smooth out that spike, and we are still on an upward trend.



I disagree. The runup started in 1980, and you can't smooth out spikes. That's the data, you have to take it as it is. Why would you smooth out the spike? You don't like it? I don't think that's sufficient.

You don't get to assume away data that you don't like.

Also check the 200 day moving average.

1970-1975 92 to 89. Not a huge 5-year move. Slightly negative.
1975-1980 92 to 133. Not too shabby, not too huge.
1980-1985 133 to 210. Sizeable move. Up roughly 50%
1985-1990 210 to 326. Sizeable move. Up roughly 50%
1990-1995 330-616. Another sizeable move. Up roughly 100%
1995-2000 615-1312 Another sizeable move. Up roughly 100%
2000-2005 1320-1267 Flat as a board.

Or, you can assume away the facts.





You got caught cherry picking data using the index that suited you or in other words misrepresenting the facts. Doing it again will not hide that fact.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 12:25:03 PM EDT
As much as I believe in civil liberties, and I never thought I'd say this, but unless you're breaking the laws and getting involved with terrorist or other unlawful shit, do you really have anything to be worried about? It's kinda like Alan Dershowitz (of all people) endorsing massive DNA testing, IIRC.

And what if the NSA finds something and turns it over to the CIA or FBI? Who cares? I'd be more concerned with how the IRS processes sensitive information about citizens.

I make lots of international phone calls and emails, and I'm sure I've been surveilled. I don't really care, because I'm not breaking any laws. Oh, but let's not forget about the "slippery slope", "wall of separation", and so many other cute phrases favored by academics and law school profs.

this flawed mindset by liberals iis why we need to continue the fight against jihadists in Iraq. From 1979 to 9/11/2001, we conditioned them into believing that the US will cut and run from every fight. Fighting them in Iraq allows us to do so without the play-by-play criticism/AAR by the ACLU and 9th Circuit Court of Loons.

Rant off.....


Link Posted: 12/17/2005 12:34:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By exporter:
As much as I believe in civil liberties, and I never thought I'd say this, but unless you're breaking the laws and getting involved with terrorist or other unlawful shit, do you really have anything to be worried about? It's kinda like Alan Dershowitz (of all people) endorsing massive DNA testing, IIRC.

And what if the NSA finds something and turns it over to the CIA or FBI? Who cares? I'd be more concerned with how the IRS processes sensitive information about citizens.

I make lots of international phone calls and emails, and I'm sure I've been surveilled. I don't really care, because I'm not breaking any laws. Oh, but let's not forget about the "slippery slope", "wall of separation", and so many other cute phrases favored by academics and law school profs.

this flawed mindset by liberals iis why we need to continue the fight against jihadists in Iraq. From 1979 to 9/11/2001, we conditioned them into believing that the US will cut and run from every fight. Fighting them in Iraq allows us to do so without the play-by-play criticism/AAR by the ACLU and 9th Circuit Court of Loons.

Rant off.....





There are real threats to liberty and this IS NOT one of them.

What is funny is people get all upset about this that has NOT one twit impact on their liberties while imminent domain is being used to confiscate thousands of people’s homes so developers can get rich. As we post 6000 homes in one city in Florida are being stolen and no one is talking about that direct stab at the heart of liberty.

The ability of Government to take your home because the mayor of your city gets a whim IS a real actual active threat to the basis of freedom in this country but people want to waste time and energy on phantoms.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 12:35:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 12:37:48 PM EDT by raven]
I am so glad people who think like Peak_Oil had absolutely no say in how WWII was run or in how we dealth with the fucking Japanese.

The damage dealt to the US in 1941 was far less significant than 9/11. Would you call our reaction to it an overreaction? If you think we've overreacted and are making Islamic terrorism out to be a much bigger threat than it really is, I can only asssume you'd think Japan was a much more exaggerated threat. I mean, they blow up a few battleships, kill a couple hundred sailors and what do we do? Raze their capital and nuke two minor cities for good measure, then overthrow their government and institute democracy by force. Oh, and intern pretty much every US citizen who happens to share their race in concentration camps.

Overreaction? Maybe. But have we ever had to worry about Japan since? Or ever in the future? Probably not, precisely because we dealt it back to them far more drastically than they ever gave it to us.

Your alternative to Bush's action against terrorism (which in my opinion is far more tepid and timid than what I would like to see) is..........what? Just taking 9/11 as the inevitible lumps of being a free and open society (that our enemies see as weak and soft that they can strike with impunity, counting exactly on the attitudes of people like you who lack the mettle it took to decisively defeat our enemies in the 1940's in just a few years). Keep looking over our shoulders? Just resign ourselves to the fact we'll just have to accept the random slaughter of our citizens and that fighting back would cause more problems than it would solve?

WHERE DO THESE ATTITUDES COME FROM? What's happened to this country?
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 12:40:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:
WHERE DO THESE ATTITUDES COME FROM? What's happened to this country?



They come from the left that hates this country and want to see it brought to it knees. This is what happens when you let your universities and even high schools become infested with America hating leftist.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 12:43:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 12:46:44 PM EDT by exporter]
The two previous posts are very good.

One thing.....

Pearl Harbor did a lot more damage to our military and our ability to strike back than 9/11 did. It took us years to develop the capability to strike Japan itself, while it only took us 6 weeks to do the planning and strike Afghanistan.

But 9/11 was a solar plexus sucker punch to an economy that was already sucking wind. (Can I copyright that?)

Link Posted: 12/17/2005 12:47:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 12:48:34 PM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By exporter:
The two previous posts are very good.

One thing.....

Pearl Harbor did a lot more damage to our military and our ability to strike back than 9/11 did. It took us years to develop the capability to strike Japan itself, while it only took us 6 weeks to do the planning and strike Afghanistan.

But 9/11 was a solar plexus sucker punch to an economy that was already sucking wind. (Can I trademark that?)




Yes the economic damage of Pearl Harbor was light in comparison to 9/11 a fact PO wants to ignore in his obtuse and patently false ramblings on economic and the threat of terrorism.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 12:53:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 12:54:33 PM EDT by raven]

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By raven:
WHERE DO THESE ATTITUDES COME FROM? What's happened to this country?



They come from the left that hates this country and want to see it brought to it knees. This is what happens when you let your universities and even high schools become infested with America hating leftist.



No shit. Peak_Oil, you need to get into an ICU where they treat you with a vigorous regimen of John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, and John Milius movies. Also read up on how America fought its enemies in every conflict EXCEPT Vietnam. For some reason, Vietnam is the only war worth remembering to some people and seem to think it's the rule rather than the exception. America's never abided sneak attacks, cheap shots, or bullying of our interests before. Why now should we tolerate it? Why do you think we should fight our enemies the way they're counting on us to fight?
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 12:58:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 1:00:16 PM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By raven:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By raven:
WHERE DO THESE ATTITUDES COME FROM? What's happened to this country?



They come from the left that hates this country and want to see it brought to it knees. This is what happens when you let your universities and even high schools become infested with America hating leftist.



No shit. Peak_Oil, you need to get into an ICU where they treat you with a vigorous regimen of John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, and John Milius movies. Also read up on how America fought its enemies in every conflict EXCEPT Vietnam. For some reason, Vietnam is the only war worth remembering to some people and seem to think it's the rule rather than the exception. America's never abided sneak attacks, cheap shots, or bullying of our interests before. Why now should we tolerate it? Why do you think we should fight our enemies the way they're counting on us to fight?



+1

IF you let some one hit you and you don’t react in a disproportional manner it is going to happen again. If we quit now or go half assed the next time is going to be more horrific... and there will be a next time.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 1:00:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By exporter:
The two previous posts are very good.

One thing.....

Pearl Harbor did a lot more damage to our military and our ability to strike back than 9/11 did. It took us years to develop the capability to strike Japan itself, while it only took us 6 weeks to do the planning and strike Afghanistan.

But 9/11 was a solar plexus sucker punch to an economy that was already sucking wind. (Can I copyright that?)


We lost a bunch of boats at Pear Harbor that we really didn't need. The tragedy was the men that were lost...

Pearl Harbor got the military industrial complex rolling, so it that aspect it was the best thing that could have ever happened to strengthen the military...
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 1:18:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:
I am so glad people who think like Peak_Oil had absolutely no say in how WWII was run or in how we dealth with the fucking Japanese.

The damage dealt to the US in 1941 was far less significant than 9/11. Would you call our reaction to it an overreaction? If you think we've overreacted and are making Islamic terrorism out to be a much bigger threat than it really is, I can only asssume you'd think Japan was a much more exaggerated threat. I mean, they blow up a few battleships, kill a couple hundred sailors and what do we do? Raze their capital and nuke two minor cities for good measure, then overthrow their government and institute democracy by force. Oh, and intern pretty much every US citizen who happens to share their race in concentration camps.

Overreaction? Maybe. But have we ever had to worry about Japan since? Or ever in the future? Probably not, precisely because we dealt it back to them far more drastically than they ever gave it to us.

Your alternative to Bush's action against terrorism (which in my opinion is far more tepid and timid than what I would like to see) is..........what? Just taking 9/11 as the inevitible lumps of being a free and open society (that our enemies see as weak and soft that they can strike with impunity, counting exactly on the attitudes of people like you who lack the mettle it took to decisively defeat our enemies in the 1940's in just a few years). Keep looking over our shoulders? Just resign ourselves to the fact we'll just have to accept the random slaughter of our citizens and that fighting back would cause more problems than it would solve?

WHERE DO THESE ATTITUDES COME FROM? What's happened to this country?



So you think the interment camps for AMERICANS of Japanese decent was a reasonable response to the attack on Pearl Harbor? You would have AMERICAN citizens locked up not for waht they do, but for what country their grandparents came from? That was the American government's response then, and nothing I've seen makes me believe it would be any different now.

If you're so scared of terrorists you're willing to trade your freedoms for the empty promise of security..., well you know the rest.

FUCK THE PATRIOT ACT!
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 1:24:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bulldog1967:
This thread is WORTHLESS without:

www.powerlineblog.com/archives/mm7.jpg

sigh......





She's like, what... 4'11" and 87 pounds?
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 1:39:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Recon_Rabbit:

Originally Posted By raven:
I am so glad people who think like Peak_Oil had absolutely no say in how WWII was run or in how we dealth with the fucking Japanese.

The damage dealt to the US in 1941 was far less significant than 9/11. Would you call our reaction to it an overreaction? If you think we've overreacted and are making Islamic terrorism out to be a much bigger threat than it really is, I can only asssume you'd think Japan was a much more exaggerated threat. I mean, they blow up a few battleships, kill a couple hundred sailors and what do we do? Raze their capital and nuke two minor cities for good measure, then overthrow their government and institute democracy by force. Oh, and intern pretty much every US citizen who happens to share their race in concentration camps.

Overreaction? Maybe. But have we ever had to worry about Japan since? Or ever in the future? Probably not, precisely because we dealt it back to them far more drastically than they ever gave it to us.

Your alternative to Bush's action against terrorism (which in my opinion is far more tepid and timid than what I would like to see) is..........what? Just taking 9/11 as the inevitible lumps of being a free and open society (that our enemies see as weak and soft that they can strike with impunity, counting exactly on the attitudes of people like you who lack the mettle it took to decisively defeat our enemies in the 1940's in just a few years). Keep looking over our shoulders? Just resign ourselves to the fact we'll just have to accept the random slaughter of our citizens and that fighting back would cause more problems than it would solve?

WHERE DO THESE ATTITUDES COME FROM? What's happened to this country?



So you think the interment camps for AMERICANS of Japanese decent was a reasonable response to the attack on Pearl Harbor? You would have AMERICAN citizens locked up not for waht they do, but for what country their grandparents came from? That was the American government's response then, and nothing I've seen makes me believe it would be any different now.

If you're so scared of terrorists you're willing to trade your freedoms for the empty promise of security..., well you know the rest.

FUCK THE PATRIOT ACT!



Well that wins dumbest response of the day.

Only a abject moron could get “interment camps were OK” out of raven’s post.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 3:42:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 3:42:42 PM EDT by Merlin]

Originally Posted By Skibane:

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:
I can't believe you guys are still frothing at the mouth over terror. To still be afraid of terrorists has got to be the most successful manipulation of fear I've ever heard of.



Ah yes, the classic Democrat's Libtard Solution To Terrorism: Deny that it exists.



Fixed it for ya!
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 4:50:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:
<snip>



I snipped out your attempt at comparing Japan attacking Pearl Harbor to 9/11 as there is no comparison. Two very different things with leaps of logic used to tie them together is worthless.

Lets look at what else is written.


Originally Posted By raven:
If you think we've overreacted and are making Islamic terrorism out to be a much bigger threat than it really is



We have responded to the threat in ways that are worthless and should never have been done. Most of the things that have been done by our government have done nothing to stop terrorism and are complete 'feel good with no substance" measures which have taken civil rights away from the citizens.

Look at the over-reactions in the threat level system that they put in place after 9/11. The level was being put up and down for no reason, DHS admitted this.

Department of Homeland Security: basically inept and worthless so far.

The Government refuses to look at the true problem, and calls Islam a Religion of Peace.


Originally Posted By raven:
Your alternative to Bush's action against terrorism (which in my opinion is far more tepid and timid than what I would like to see) is..........what? Just taking 9/11 as the inevitible lumps of being a free and open society (that our enemies see as weak and soft that they can strike with impunity



The alternatives to what Bush has done about terrorism is to actually do something.

Close the southern and northern border. Stop illegal immigration.

Deport illegal aliens.

Perform background checks of those currently here on visas and deport those with problems.

Keep track of people here on visas instead of letting them dissappear into society.

Shut down 75%-90% of the visas being currently given out. How many of the 9/11 attackers were from Saudi Arabia? Why was the limit for student visas raised recently for Saudi Arabia from 10k people to 25k people? Why do they let these people come here free and clear with no checks being done on them? How many other visas are given out to other Islamic countries with no oversight?

Stop giving Government money (our tax money) to illegal aliens and people from other countries here on visas.

Overhaul DHS so it actually does something about the problem. We currently have a system that does not deport people and lets criminals from other countries run free in society.

Severely curtail our involvement or just ditch the UN, unless we can rule them with an iron fist. They are a big part of the problem, not the solution.

Cut down 90% of the foreign aid we give.

Thats a start anyway.


Originally Posted By raven:
Just resign ourselves to the fact we'll just have to accept the random slaughter of our citizens and that fighting back would cause more problems than it would solve?



There is no resignation or acceptance of terrorism. Things that will actually work need to be done while involving and promoting our citizens and country.


Link Posted: 12/17/2005 5:00:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dance:

Originally Posted By raven:
<snip>



I snipped out your attempt at comparing Japan attacking Pearl Harbor to 9/11 as there is no comparison. Two very different things with leaps of logic used to tie them together is worthless.




Two enemies growing in capability, both chafed by American influence in their regions, both lash out in a sneak attack that could have been discerned if we had been more viglilant, alert, and had the infrastructure to synthesize the information, both attacks intended to send a message to America to butt out of the attackers' neck of the woods and not stand in the way of their ambitions.

If you can't see the similarities, you're very thick or just aren't thinking too deeply about the situation. History happens over and over, but all we seem to learn from it is that we learn nothing from it.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 5:36:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By exporter:
The two previous posts are very good.

One thing.....

Pearl Harbor did a lot more damage to our military and our ability to strike back than 9/11 did. It took us years to develop the capability to strike Japan itself, while it only took us 6 weeks to do the planning and strike Afghanistan.

But 9/11 was a solar plexus sucker punch to an economy that was already sucking wind. (Can I copyright that?)




Do a thorough analysis of the last 5 quarters of the Glory (Clinton) years and you'll see the cycle was trending downwards...but the MSM was able to stall "reporting" (AKA hyperbolizing) the real effects until W took over... then, miracle of miracles, the economy tanks on January 21, 2001.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 5:55:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:

Two enemies growing in capability, both chafed by American influence in their regions, both lash out in a sneak attack that could have been discerned if we had been more viglilant, alert, and had the infrastructure to synthesize the information, both attacks intended to send a message to America to butt out of the attackers' neck of the woods and not stand in the way of their ambitions.

If you can't see the similarities, you're very thick or just aren't thinking too deeply about the situation. History happens over and over, but all we seem to learn from it is that we learn nothing from it.



You are really searching for similarities and making a jump as to what they are and what they mean.

If it is so similiar we would of attacked and destroyed Saudi Arabia, as 19 of the 21 hijackers came from there.

Yet we didn't.

There are big differences as to what the world was at the time, what was happening, who the attackers were, what the message of the attack was, and loads of other things.

They aren't similiar attacks in any way.



Link Posted: 12/17/2005 6:04:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By raven:
WHERE DO THESE ATTITUDES COME FROM? What's happened to this country?



They come from the left that hates this country and want to see it brought to it knees. This is what happens when you let your universities and even high schools become infested with America hating leftist.



Amen to that. The job of universitys is to educate in subject matter. Not brain wash students in leftist polictical mumbo jumbo.
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