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Posted: 12/16/2005 7:19:15 AM EDT

w00t!!!!!!!!!

House backs 700-mile fence along border

Associated Press
Published December 16, 2005


WASHINGTON -- The House called for construction of a fence along parts of the U.S. border from the Pacific Coast to the Gulf of Mexico as a bill aimed at shutting down illegal immigration moved ahead on Thursday.

The two-layered fence, about 700 miles long, would be built in parts of California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. The provisions, passed 260-159, put priority on construction near Laredo, Texas. The city is across the border from Nuevo Laredo, Mexico, where warring drug cartels have been blamed for at least 140 murders this year.

Supporters said the fence would cut down on crime and drug smuggling, but Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee (D-Texas) said it would create "the largest gated community in the Western Hemisphere."

The House voted 220-206 to approve a parliamentary measure needed to move forward on the bill, but only after GOP leaders appealed for party unity.

A few Republicans were unhappy that a provision denying citizenship to children born to illegal immigrants in the U.S. was not among the early amendments getting a vote. That proposal could be offered Friday.

Supporters of the overall bill defended their decision to cut off the flow of illegal entrants before turning to the tougher issues of a guest worker program or other means to fill the jobs that now attract millions of undocumented workers.

Almost all Democrats and several border-state Republicans pushed for a more comprehensive measure that would deal with the estimated 11 million illegal immigrants in the U.S.

Copyright © 2005, Chicago Tribune

Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:19:31 AM EDT
sweet!
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:26:47 AM EDT
But who will clean all the hotel rooms in most of southern Texas now?

Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:29:28 AM EDT
Only 1300 miles to go...
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:29:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 7:30:17 AM EDT by pyro6988]



Now we just need to work on the minefield
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:32:45 AM EDT
What kind of fence are we talking here? Chainlink, barbed wire, cement, etc? Either way a fence alone will not help much IMO. At least it's a start.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:33:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mjrowley:
<snip>

A few Republicans were unhappy that a provision denying citizenship to children born to illegal immigrants in the U.S. was not among the early amendments getting a vote. That proposal could be offered Friday.

<snip>

Copyright © 2005, Chicago Tribune



Apparently, some people need to read their Constitutions, especially the XIV Amandments:


Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.


As for the rest of the bill: It's a start.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:34:17 AM EDT
What does a fence mean?? I have seen illegals crossing through holes in the fence in Tiquana and Juarez. It needs to be guarded well. Is that going to happen too? More border agents? special detectors?
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:38:06 AM EDT


Apparently, some people need to read their Constitutions, especially the XIV Amandments:


Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.


As for the rest of the bill: It's a start.




Up until recently the Government and Supreme court interpreted that to mean that children of legal immigrants or citizens "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States" were granted citizenship.

If you are or were here illegally, then you were not subject to the jurisdiction of the US, but of your native country.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:41:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 7:41:52 AM EDT by PAEBR332]

Originally Posted By ski2060:

Apparently, some people need to read their Constitutions, especially the XIV Amandments:


Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.


As for the rest of the bill: It's a start.




Up until recently the Government and Supreme court interpreted that to mean that children of legal immigrants or citizens "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States" were granted citizenship.

If you are or were here illegally, then you were not subject to the jurisdiction of the US, but of your native country.



The exception "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States" was placed there to exempt diplomats living in the US.

Are illegals "subject to the jurisdiction of the United Staes?" In other words, do our laws cover them? Well, if an illegal kills someone, they can be charged with murder, convicted and imprisoned HERE. Hence, they are subject to our jurisdiction. Diplomats, on the other hand, are not.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:42:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By widmn:
What does a fence mean?? I have seen illegals crossing through holes in the fence in Tiquana and Juarez. It needs to be guarded well. Is that going to happen too? More border agents? special detectors?


Thats been my observation every time one of these fence threads pops up.
And you guys who advoacte mining the fences are nuts. That would be a PR nightmare for the USA.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:44:39 AM EDT
Should have been done decades ago.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:45:21 AM EDT
That's going to be someone's cash cow.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:46:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ski2060:

Apparently, some people need to read their Constitutions, especially the XIV Amandments:


Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.


As for the rest of the bill: It's a start.




Up until recently the Government and Supreme court interpreted that to mean that children of legal immigrants or citizens "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States" were granted citizenship.

If you are or were here illegally, then you were not subject to the jurisdiction of the US, but of your native country.

Seems alot of people have trouble reading the constitution even though any fool can see what it says plain as day. Reminds me of the arguments about the 2nd.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:48:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ski2060:

Up until recently the Government and Supreme court interpreted that to mean that children of legal immigrants or citizens "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States" were granted citizenship.

If you are or were here illegally, then you were not subject to the jurisdiction of the US, but of your native country.



Thank you.


Apparently, some people need to read their Constitutions, especially the XIV Amandments:


Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.



Two extra comments. That amendment was ratified under duress, and it is interesting that you are not from a Southern state that is being tramitized by illegal immigration.

Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:49:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 7:50:49 AM EDT by BayEagle]


Originally Posted By mjrowley:
w00t!!!!!!!!!

House backs 700-mile fence along border


The provisions, passed 260-159, put priority on construction near Laredo, Texas. The city is across the border from Nuevo Laredo, Mexico, where warring drug cartels have been blamed for at least 140 murders this year.




Paging Zaphod!



Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:50:05 AM EDT
I see it is Constitutional Amateur Hour once again here on ARFCOM...
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:51:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mousehunter:
Two extra comments. That amendment was ratified under duress, and it is interesting that you are not from a Southern state that is being tramitized by illegal immigration.




The distance is probably a good thing; the people up close and personal to whatever problem exists are most likely biased in their viewpoint and less willing to act according to what is lawful. Distance lends a more balanced perspective.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:51:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ED_P:
But who will clean all the hotel rooms in most of southern Texas now?




Maybe some of the Lazy Ass ed Americans on welfare will get off their ass's and make a honest wage.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:52:35 AM EDT
When do we give the shoot to kill order down there?...
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:53:53 AM EDT
I thought this was a real estate ad.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:56:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:
I see it is Constitutional Amateur Hour once again here on ARFCOM...



Its the muppet show! doot dee do do do doot!
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:57:52 AM EDT
.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:59:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ED_P:
But who will clean all the hotel rooms in most of southern Texas now?




What is a valid question, however I feel the downside of them being dirty will be made up for in other ways.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 8:02:16 AM EDT
Hopfully these are just the "fence posts" for the next 1700+ miles.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 8:47:52 AM EDT
And who's gonna pick all of the fruits and vegetables that we eat? I've never seen a non-immigrant doing that kind of work
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 8:51:58 AM EDT
I seriously don't know... but isn't there already a fence there?

I thought everyone complains about the mexicans jumping the fence to get here.

You mean they just walk across an imaginary line?

Link Posted: 12/16/2005 8:57:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Reaper:
I seriously don't know... but isn't there already a fence there?

I thought everyone complains about the mexicans jumping the fence to get here.

You mean they just walk across an imaginary line?




No, there ARE fences in the easiest to cross areas. Only the illegals find ways to jump the fence. Some of the fences are 14 feet tall, topped with a curved section on the top yet they still find ways of breaching.

A fence might stop the weak willed illegals but the drug smugglers will still find a way over, under, around or through the fence. Hell, a concrete wall with armed guards didn't stop East Berliners from getting into the West.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:02:33 AM EDT
Where I grew up we did not have many fruit trees - but I did more than my fair share of paso work.

My favorite was shoveling chicken manure one summer (part of the pullet house cleaning crew). Actually was not that hard of work, construction was much harder - practially doubled my bench press one summer. For over half the summer I had a shovel in hand - moving and leveling fill dirt. Most of the rest of the time I was standing in wet cement.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:04:19 AM EDT
Unless the mine the border...it won't stop anything.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:13:45 AM EDT
Great, let the maintenance begin.


and IBTMHF's
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:24:37 AM EDT
The House has always been more responsive to the will of the American People, because of their shorter terms. Senators, on the other hand, by and large, don't give a shit what the American people want or don't want. They are a private club.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:25:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By The_Reaper:
I seriously don't know... but isn't there already a fence there?

I thought everyone complains about the mexicans jumping the fence to get here.

You mean they just walk across an imaginary line?




No, there ARE fences in the easiest to cross areas. Only the illegals find ways to jump the fence. Some of the fences are 14 feet tall, topped with a curved section on the top yet they still find ways of breaching.

A fence might stop the weak willed illegals but the drug smugglers will still find a way over, under, around or through the fence. Hell, a concrete wall with armed guards didn't stop East Berliners from getting into the West.



But it sure slowed them down.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:31:45 AM EDT
Its a step in the right direction. Where are the 50 cal towers?
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:33:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mcantu:
And who's gonna pick all of the fruits and vegetables that we eat? I've never seen a non-immigrant doing that kind of work




Hello...We will, if the wages are high enough. I'm not going to pick for $5.00 per hour, but I will for $15!!!!!!
Simple economics 101. Stop illegals from coming in..... leads to companies having to pay higher wages paid to non-illegals to pick..... leads to higher prices for fruit and vegees..... leads to inflation..... leads to consumers paying higher prices for their fruits and vegees, etc , etc.
This is what the administration is trying to avoid along because inflation makes them look bad and the growers and canners are against it.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:33:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jkstexas2001:
The House has always been more responsive to the will of the American People, because of their shorter terms. Senators, on the other hand, by and large, don't give a shit what the American people want or don't want. They are a private club.



Uh well, the House is suppose to be the will of the people. The senate on the other hand is the will of the states (at least that's how I undestood it).
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:40:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Chaingun:
That's going to be someone's cash cow.



You ain't kidding. Even at the low end, we're looking at a $1 billion for the fence.

Maybe FedGov can cut the costs by employing day laborers. Wait a minute...

* * * * *

House approves border fence

By Stephen Dinan and Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Published December 16, 2005

The House voted last night to build nearly 700 miles of fence along the U.S.-Mexico border as it began the first major floor debate in years on enforcing immigration laws.

The vote, 260-159, came on an amendment to a border-security and employer-verification bill that is scheduled for a final vote today.

Republican leaders appeared to have cleared a remaining hurdle last night by promising to remove language that said there should be a legal means for foreign workers to come and go.

Some Republicans had argued that the provision, which was nonbinding, was a place-holder to attach a guest-worker plan in the future and thus was a deal-killer.

On the fence construction vote, 49 Democrats joined 211 Republicans in supporting it while 12 Republicans joined the Democrats and one independent in voting against it.

Supporters of the fence said stopping the flow of illegal aliens is critical to dealing with illegal immigration.

"We need to stop the bleeding before we can stitch the wound," said Rep. Phil Gingrey, Georgia Republican.

But Democrats said it will hurt commerce, irk neighboring countries and fail to keep people out.

"People will escape from Mexico and the southern border. This will only injure the relationships and cause no greater security," said Rep. Sheila Jackson-Lee, Texas Democrat.

Rep. Duncan Hunter, California Republican and the amendment's chief sponsor, said the success of a fence near San Diego convinced Congress and voters that the concept works.

"Democrat and Republican, the people agree the fence has worked," he said. "It's cut down on murders, it's cut down on smuggling, and it's brought order on both sides of the border."

Mr. Hunter's plan calls for 698 miles of fence at five locations along the 1,940-mile border. The barrier would be modeled from the San Diego fence, a two-layered reinforced fence with roads, surveillance cameras and sensors. Cost estimates run from $1.5 million to $2 million per mile.

Polls show a fence has overwhelming support among voters.

But Mexican President Vicente Fox this week criticized the idea, calling it "disgraceful and shameful" and saying it "will not protect the economy of the United States." He said a fence would violate migrants' rights and instead repeated his call for Congress to pass a bill to legalize illegal aliens.

In a body where ideas usually take years to germinate, supporters said they were amazed at how quickly the fence idea grew from an idea that a few members were talking about this summer.

"How quick a time frame for this to go from a thought to all of the sudden an accepted amendment," said Rep. Tom Tancredo, Colorado Republican.

The House bill would repeat last year's call for more U.S. Border Patrol agents, expand expedited removal of illegal aliens, allow sheriffs in border counties to help federal immigration authorities and require employers to verify employees' Social Security numbers through a national database.

Lawmakers and advocacy groups on both sides of the issue agreed that the bill never will become law as is, and even Republican leaders said it must include a guest-worker plan by the time it gets to President Bush.

"As we move this legislation to the president's desk, it should include comprehensive reform," Rep. David Dreier, California Republican and chairman of
the Rules Committee, said on the floor.

The Senate is expected to begin debate early next year on enforcement of immigration laws, a guest-worker program and a path to citizenship for illegal aliens.

Rep. Jeff Flake, Arizona Republican and a strong supporter of both a guest-worker plan and the legalization of illegal aliens, said the House has failed by not doing the same.

"It's a shame for the House to rely on the Senate for what we have to do," he said, adding that he doesn't think the government could successfully enforce the bill without a guest-worker program anyway.

But Rep. Steve King, Iowa Republican, said he has a "handshake" deal with House Republican leaders that they won't allow a guest-worker plan to be attached to this bill.

"I don't think the leadership will allow a bill to come to the floor that comes back from the Senate with guest-worker" proposals, he said.

Many Democrats and some Republicans say that enforcement alone would shut down entire industries because they are so dependent on illegal employees and that the bill is unfair to an estimated 11 million illegal aliens who want a chance to work.

"This bill steps on the spirit of Christmas for 11 million people," said Rep. Sam Farr, California Democrat.

Rep. Jim Kolbe, Arizona Republican and a partner with Mr. Flake on a bill to create a path to citizenship for illegal aliens, said he urged leaders to pull the bill until next year, when the issue can be debated in full.


Link Posted: 12/16/2005 10:40:51 AM EDT
So Rep's Kolbe and Flake are against this?

WTF...

They don't seem to realize that the majority of us Arizona's want the illegals out of here. Yes LEGAL Mexicans are against the illegals as well.

What is Fox talking about on "Migrant Rights"? They are citizens of country's other than America, they are not entitled to our rights. F' Fox, and all the illegals that are trying to break our laws!
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 10:50:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Chaingun:
That's going to be someone's cash cow.



Haliburton can erect this fifteen foot tall double fence using their latest technology fencing material.

Cheney-link fencing!



HS1
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 11:33:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ED_P:
But who will clean all the hotel rooms in most of southern Texas now?




Who cares...build the damn wall already.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 1:15:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mcantu:
And who's gonna pick all of the fruits and vegetables that we eat? I've never seen a non-immigrant doing that kind of work


Not meaning to come across as rude, but I have two questions:
1) Are you originally from Texas, or another border state?
2) Do they do that sort of work in New York?

I ask because, as a life-long Texas resident, I have seen non-immigrants doing exactly that type of work. Working in the salon is, essentially/usually, hoeing weeds in cotton fields. You often see crews of 5-12 doing this in the dog days of summer (98+*, 90+% humidity). Admittedly, most of them *look* like illegals, but a large portion are not.

They are migrant workers, who (as the name implies) move around following the work season(s). Migrant workers may or may not be illegals. I worked in the salons one summer with my best friend's family. His dad, Samuel, was first gen, having come here legally, but with no education/trade, so he became a migrant worker.

Back-breaking work, to be sure, but as an earlier [Texan] poster alluded to, construction is often 'harder' (I know, because I also worked for my family's oilfield lease crew service).

As for the actual picking of fruits and vegetables (i.e. the question you actually asked), even though I'm from South Texas, we were too far 'north' (relatively) to be in on that. All that action is in the [Rio Grande] Valley.

That said, one of my roommates in college was from the Valley. His dad used to pick fruits and vegetables (in the 60's, IIRC), and he was legal (1st or 2nd gen). Although Jimmy Smits' character suggested otherwise on The West Wing a few weeks ago, not all fruit/vegetable pickers are illegals.

BTW, now that former fruit/vegetable picker owns and operates his own [successful] business, but his kids are soft.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 1:22:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wise_jake:
2) Do they do that sort of work in New York?


Do you mean are there migrant workers in NYS? You DO realize theres more to NYS than NYC, right? Agriculture is big in Upstate NY.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 1:25:27 PM EDT
Next deploy armed and willing citizens along the fence line.

Link Posted: 12/16/2005 1:40:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bubbles:

Originally Posted By Chaingun:
That's going to be someone's cash cow.



You ain't kidding. Even at the low end, we're looking at a $1 billion for the fence.



Thats a bargain! California alone spends 11 Billion a year on illegals.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 1:43:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By wise_jake:
2) Do they do that sort of work in New York?


Do you mean are there migrant workers in NYS? You DO realize theres more to NYS than NYC, right? Agriculture is big in Upstate NY.



Funny you talk about this, I've yet to find ANY illegals picking apples or harvesting corn or anything else in my neck of the woods. I don't know what part of NY you are from but at least over here they are almost non-existant.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 1:47:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By mousehunter:
Two extra comments. That amendment was ratified under duress, and it is interesting that you are not from a Southern state that is being tramitized by illegal immigration.




The distance is probably a good thing; the people up close and personal to whatever problem exists are most likely biased in their viewpoint and less willing to act according to what is lawful. Distance lends a more balanced perspective.





Now dat jes be dawn raight ig'nt.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 1:55:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tommygun2000:
Should have been done decades ago.


Yep. Good work, congress.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 1:56:13 PM EDT
Another high-priced albatross coming directly out of our pockets.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 2:16:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By wise_jake:
2) Do they do that sort of work in New York?


Do you mean are there migrant workers in NYS? You DO realize theres more to NYS than NYC, right? Agriculture is big in Upstate NY.


Well, that's sort of what I meant, and yes, I know there is lots of ag there (in NYS), I just didn't know it was temperate enough for most fruits and/or vegetables, or if there were immigrant (illegal?) workers there doing hand-picking type work.

I was specifically trying to differentiate between "illegal" and "migrant" workers in my question, and asking for other clarification to see "where he was coming from," so to speak. That's also why I prefaced it all with "Not meaning to come across as rude".
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 6:05:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kill-9:
Another high-priced albatross coming directly out of our pockets.



1 billion is pocket change compared to the costs of illegal immigration.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 6:14:42 AM EDT
How far apart will the automatic movement sensitive gun turrets be installed?
Or will the opt instead for land mines instead?
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