Mr Government Apologist,

Please explain why they immediately bulldozed the site after the fire went out, and why they would not let the Texas Rangers have the front door, for forensic examination?  Because it was a Damn Coverup, that's why.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Wasnt there an FBI sniper that spilled some beans after the Mt. Carmel and Ruby Ridge?  He said that he was watching through his scope as Davidians were throwing lanters and Coleman fuel on the ground and walls.  He also said, and there is video evidence that some Davidians tried to escape the blaze and that FBI, not ATF, agents went in, while getting shot at to pull these people to safety. There is video evidence alright. FLIR tapes of automatic gunfire being used to drive people back into the building. This is why so many bodies were found, shot to death, crowded around the only undamaged exit. Who was it firing? That's right, because the FBI/ATF is a bunch of bloodthirsty killers, and none of the hundred or so agents who were at the scene would have balked when ordered to shoot unarmed women and children.   Where is this videotape?  I don't think it exists.

Well, Lon Horuchi (sp?), FBI sniper, shot a woman holding a child in the back of the head at Ruby Ridge, IIRC.  So yes, Government Apologist, some are friggin cold-blooded.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Wasnt there an FBI sniper that spilled some beans after the Mt. Carmel and Ruby Ridge?  He said that he was watching through his scope as Davidians were throwing lanters and Coleman fuel on the ground and walls.  He also said, and there is video evidence that some Davidians tried to escape the blaze and that FBI, not ATF, agents went in, while getting shot at to pull these people to safety. There is video evidence alright. FLIR tapes of automatic gunfire being used to drive people back into the building. This is why so many bodies were found, shot to death, crowded around the only undamaged exit. Who was it firing? That's right, because the FBI/ATF is a bunch of bloodthirsty killers, and none of the hundred or so agents who were at the scene would have balked when ordered to shoot unarmed women and children.   Where is this videotape?  I don't think it exists.

I guess we know who one of our local ATF agents is now.  Probably 85% of the people on this board have seen it.  A lot of it was played on the news.  You may not THINK it exists, but a lot of us KNOW it does.  On the other side of things, like I said,  whether the FBI held me back or not, as a firefighter, I wouldn't go fucking near that building when it was burning like that.  

Uh, maybe because they were shooting from inside the buildings?

Oops, I made  mistake - I didn't side against the gubment on ARFCOM.  

Quoted: Uh, maybe because they were shooting from inside the buildings? Oops, I made  mistake - I didn't side against the gubment on ARFCOM.

lol my point of view kinda doesn't matter.  The FBI held them back and I'll never believe it was for any other reason than to let the evidence burn.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Wasnt there an FBI sniper that spilled some beans after the Mt. Carmel and Ruby Ridge?  He said that he was watching through his scope as Davidians were throwing lanters and Coleman fuel on the ground and walls.  He also said, and there is video evidence that some Davidians tried to escape the blaze and that FBI, not ATF, agents went in, while getting shot at to pull these people to safety. There is video evidence alright. FLIR tapes of automatic gunfire being used to drive people back into the building. This is why so many bodies were found, shot to death, crowded around the only undamaged exit. Who was it firing? That's right, because the FBI/ATF is a bunch of bloodthirsty killers, and none of the hundred or so agents who were at the scene would have balked when ordered to shoot unarmed women and children.   Where is this videotape?  I don't think it exists.   Well, Lon Horuchi (sp?), FBI sniper, shot a woman holding a child in the back of the head at Ruby Ridge, IIRC.  So yes, Government Apologist, some are friggin cold-blooded.

Inculding the hundreds at the Waco site?  They got together in a big conference, came up with a plan to set the building on fire, and shoot all the women and children as they came out, screaming and on fire, and all the people there said "sure, sounds like a good idea" and then never said anything about it in the 10 or so years have passed?  Wow, that's pretty amazing, being able to get hundreds of agents to agree to massacre innocent civilians.  

You guys do realize you sound kooky, right?

Quoted: Quoted: Uh, maybe because they were shooting from inside the buildings? Oops, I made  mistake - I didn't side against the gubment on ARFCOM.   lol my point of view kinda doesn't matter.  The FBI held them back and I'll never believe it was for any other reason than to let the evidence burn.

Like I said, I am undecided as to the reasons for holding the firetrucks back.
But disputing the FLIR tape which clearly shows two men dropping out of the CEV, and laying down suppessive fire into the building is just rediculous.
Also - who ever said they were FBI/ATF?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Wasnt there an FBI sniper that spilled some beans after the Mt. Carmel and Ruby Ridge?  He said that he was watching through his scope as Davidians were throwing lanters and Coleman fuel on the ground and walls.  He also said, and there is video evidence that some Davidians tried to escape the blaze and that FBI, not ATF, agents went in, while getting shot at to pull these people to safety. There is video evidence alright. FLIR tapes of automatic gunfire being used to drive people back into the building. This is why so many bodies were found, shot to death, crowded around the only undamaged exit. Who was it firing? That's right, because the FBI/ATF is a bunch of bloodthirsty killers, and none of the hundred or so agents who were at the scene would have balked when ordered to shoot unarmed women and children.   Where is this videotape?  I don't think it exists.   I guess we know who one of our local ATF agents is now.  Probably 85% of the people on this board have seen it.  A lot of it was played on the news.  You may not THINK it exists, but a lot of us KNOW it does.  On the other side of things, like I said,  whether the FBI held me back or not, as a firefighter, I wouldn't go fucking near that building when it was burning like that.

HAHa, yeah, I work for the government and you are all on report!   I'm spying on you guys!  

So where is this tape that shows the FBI gunning down innocent women and children as they fled a burning building?  Shouldn't be too hard to find if it's out there.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Uh, maybe because they were shooting from inside the buildings? Oops, I made  mistake - I didn't side against the gubment on ARFCOM.   lol my point of view kinda doesn't matter.  The FBI held them back and I'll never believe it was for any other reason than to let the evidence burn. Like I said, I am undecided as to the reasons for holding the firetrucks back. But disputing the FLIR tape which clearly shows two men dropping out of the CEV, and laying down suppessive fire into the building is just rediculous. Also - who ever said they were FBI/ATF?

Well, let's see that tape then.

And if not FBI/ATF, who?  A super secret squad of brainwashed, MK Ultra killers on loan from the CIA, NSA and the New World Order to silence the threat to the country presented by the Branch Davidians?

hanau:

Here are some links you might enjoy. Just remember the point of view of some of these and take what is written here with a five pound bag of salt.  The Rick Ross link is one of the best ones.

www.apfn.org/apfn/wacoinfo4-19-94.htm
www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/picturethis.html
carolmoore.net/waco/
www.wacofacts.com/
www.firearmsandliberty.com/waco.massacre.html
www.serendipity.li/waco.html
www.rickross.com/groups/waco.html
www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/

Hours of stuff here.

Quoted: The FBI held them back and I'll never believe it was for any other reason than to let the evidence burn.

The number one question from the fire department we get if there was any gunplay involved is, "Is it safe for my guys to go in?"

If we say anything but a resounding, "Yes," then they aren't going in yet.  They'll make a great showing at the staging area around the corner, but that's about it.

Think liability before government conspiracy.

I always wanted to know if the Davidians shot at the tanks when the final raid happened.  I can't remember which FBI guy said it (maybe even one of the guys who participated in the final raid) but he said "I remember they lit up the tanks like Christmas Trees" or something to that extent.

Yet in the video footage from the media, it appears that FBI agents are simply strolling around behind the tanks during the raid.  Now, I haven't watched the hours of footage to confirm that this was the behavior during the entire raid, but it just seemed rather odd to me.  

Oh yeah, and they found signs that the FBI or someone fired on the Davidians.  If the FBI would have said, hey, we fired a few shots back, I'm sure most might have been able to deal with that.  Instead they say "we never fired a shot" when shell casings were found in their watch positions.  

Do I think that the FBI's overall plan was to burn the motherefers and mow down everyone with machinegun fire that tried to escape the inferno?  No.

But somehow the place burnt down and a FLIR tape came out with some guys in the back (where now media cameras were watching) were laying down a lot of rifle fire.  Sure the FLIR tape has been debated by experts but when half say its machinegun fire and the other half say its "sunlight." I'd say its a 50/50 chance that some folks murdered a bunch of other folks.  Why?  I don't think we'll ever know.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Uh, maybe because they were shooting from inside the buildings? Oops, I made  mistake - I didn't side against the gubment on ARFCOM.   lol my point of view kinda doesn't matter.  The FBI held them back and I'll never believe it was for any other reason than to let the evidence burn. Like I said, I am undecided as to the reasons for holding the firetrucks back. But disputing the FLIR tape which clearly shows two men dropping out of the CEV, and laying down suppessive fire into the building is just rediculous. Also - who ever said they were FBI/ATF? Well, let's see that tape then. And if not FBI/ATF, who?  A super secret squad of brainwashed, MK Ultra killers on loan from the CIA, NSA and the New World Order to silence the threat to the country presented by the Branch Davidians?

You're rediculous.
Most likely, it was the CAG guys who were in the tanks as advisors to the FBI <---That is from an interview with a former CIA agent.

If you want the tape, buy/download the two documentaries - Waco: Rules of Engagement, and Waco: A New Revelation.

I used to feel exactly the same way - I felt the davidians were child molesting, drug dealing, machine gun owning, cultists who started the fire.
Those two documentaries will change your outlook significantly.

Here is another question - where did those two front doors from Waco go?
Also, where did the two videotapes that had the events of the front of the house during the initial raid go?
The tapes that would clear up a lot of mysteries about the initial raid...where are they?

Quoted: Quoted: FBI sucks Davidians crazy FBI murdered them I'm glad that somebody recognizes that it wasn't only the ATF that did the killing. Most people don't know that after the initial raid, the FBI took over. Most intelligent people can pour over the voluminous evidence available (coroner's reports, senate testimony, video) and come to the obvious conclusion that 90 people were murdered. No matter how hard the .gov apologists try, you will not get me to agree that 90 men women and children had to be shot, poisoned, crushed, tortured, and burned to death because one man failed to pay a $200 tax to the Federal Government. Take a look at the baby pictures from the coroners office... Broken spines from convulsions relating to cyanide poisoning (burning CS powder). Did those babies deserve that? Why didn't agents arrest Koresh on his daily jog-he was the only one on the warrant. The only thing that saddens me more than what happened to the Davidians and the mark it left on America was that the Davidians didn't kill more of the kind of agents that would participate in a raid like this. It's my opinion that every man and woman who was there after the initial raid is party to murder. Here are the autopsies: www.dabney.com/wacomuseum/death/map/d_list00.html Dave

Thanks for that link. In the autopsy report for #8 it states the age at 33 years.

Quoted: Quoted: The FBI held them back and I'll never believe it was for any other reason than to let the evidence burn. The number one question from the fire department we get if there was any gunplay involved is, "Is it safe for my guys to go in?" If we say anything but a resounding, "Yes," then they aren't going in yet.  They'll make a great showing at the staging area around the corner, but that's about it. Think liability before government conspiracy.

Note the other stuff I said.  "as a firefighter, there is no fucking way I'd go anywhere near that building"  Fuck asking cops if there would be gun play involved.  That much ammo inside all the chemicals and everything else inside I wouldn't go anywhere near it.  Heat cooks off ammo inside firearms just as if you or I pulled the trigger.  I have a .22 cal chunk of lead in my thigh because of this.  As far as I'm concerned the Davidians may or may not have been nuts, but they were only exercising there right to keep and bear arms.  The laws that restricted what they could and couldn't have were un constitutional.  The ATF and the FBI both fucked up in their act of being judge, jury and executioner here.  David Koresh was the only one on that warrant, they could have arrested him on his morning jog and saved everyone else they murdered.  But then again, that would denote logic, and we all know, logic was not something ever used at Waco.

Quoted: You're rediculous.

You believe that hundreds of FBI/ATF participated in or at least had direct knowledge of gunning down dozens of innocent women and children with a machine gun as they fled a burning building, and not only that but kept that secret for over 10 years, and you call me ridiculous?  hahaha.  

Quoted: Quoted: You're rediculous. You believe that hundreds of FBI/ATF participated in or at least had direct knowledge of gunning down dozens of innocent women and children with a machine gun as they fled a burning building, and not only that but kept that secret for over 10 years, and you call me ridiculous?  hahaha.

These ATF agents had an arrest warrant for a man that jogged every morning in public and they could have arrested him their,  yet they choose to do so when he's inside the compound.  That's just stupid and as far as I'm concerned showing ZERO concern for your own men.  

Quoted: Quoted: You're rediculous. You believe that hundreds of FBI/ATF participated in or at least had direct knowledge of gunning down dozens of innocent women and children with a machine gun as they fled a burning building, and not only that but kept that secret for over 10 years, and you call me ridiculous?  hahaha.

Did I say that?
No, I did not.
Saying things like that only discredits you, not me.
I have made no rediculous claims, I have only asked questions.

Why don't you address the points in my post?
Where did the ATF tapes from the front of the house, made during the initial raid go?
What about the two front doors?

You believe that hundreds of FBI/ATF participated in or at least had direct knowledge of gunning down dozens of innocent women and children

You have never seen "Rules of Engaugement" obviously....it's all very clear.

And it's wasn't all of them.  They tried to leave, they got shot at and killed.  When the building burned they tried to run and were shot again.

I'm getting angry again..........

Quoted: Inculding the hundreds at the Waco site?  They got together in a big conference, came up with a plan to set the building on fire, and shoot all the women and children as they came out, screaming and on fire, and all the people there said "sure, sounds like a good idea" and then never said anything about it in the 10 or so years have passed?  Wow, that's pretty amazing, being able to get hundreds of agents to agree to massacre innocent civilians.   You guys do realize you sound kooky, right?

You realize that the Texas Rangers, who were originally sent in after the conflagoration to investigate the Branch Davidians for the purpose of prosecuting the Branch Davidians noted numerous instances of obstruction and coverup (including lying under oath) by the FBI and the ATF?  In this case, you don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to think something extremely suspect went on by the government against it's own citizens.

Quoted: Quoted: Inculding the hundreds at the Waco site?  They got together in a big conference, came up with a plan to set the building on fire, and shoot all the women and children as they came out, screaming and on fire, and all the people there said "sure, sounds like a good idea" and then never said anything about it in the 10 or so years have passed?  Wow, that's pretty amazing, being able to get hundreds of agents to agree to massacre innocent civilians.   You guys do realize you sound kooky, right? You realize that the Texas Rangers, who were originally sent in after the conflagoration to investigate the Branch Davidians for the purpose of prosecuting the Branch Davidians noted numerous instances of obstruction and coverup (including lying under oath) by the FBI and the ATF? In this case, you don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to think something extremely suspect went on by the government against it's own citizens.

Yeah they murdered them and got away with it.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The FBI held them back and I'll never believe it was for any other reason than to let the evidence burn. The number one question from the fire department we get if there was any gunplay involved is, "Is it safe for my guys to go in?" If we say anything but a resounding, "Yes," then they aren't going in yet.  They'll make a great showing at the staging area around the corner, but that's about it. Think liability before government conspiracy. +1 having been on the command side of a fire scene and the responder side we NEVER entered an area that had not been cleared first. period. I don't think the .gov has the competancy to set this whole ordeal up from the start as a conspiracy. I don't think it was even thought of hiding anything until the upper management realised several people had been burned to death by incompetant idiots in control of the situation. at that point it was full speed ahead to hide things so they could keep their cushy government jobs. Nothing more, nothing less.

lol come on ya'll read everything else I posted.  I've said many times that as a firefighter I wouldn't go anywhere near that building.

Quoted: +1 having been on the command side of a fire scene and the responder side we NEVER entered an area that had not been cleared first. period.

You should have seen the fire response to the LA riots in 1992.  

Fire: "I heard they were shooting down that street.  Is that right?"

Us: "The one with those burning buildings?  Yup."

Fire: "Call us back when they stop shooting.  We're going to the next call."

Fire gets paid to be heroes, not bullet catchers.

Quoted: Quoted: +1 having been on the command side of a fire scene and the responder side we NEVER entered an area that had not been cleared first. period. You should have seen the fire response to the LA riots in 1992.   Fire: "I heard they were shooting down that street.  Is that right?" Us: "The one with those burning buildings?  Yup." Fire: "Call us back when they stop shooting.  We're going to the next call." Fire gets paid to be heroes, not bullet catchers.

If I remember right in class we were taught victims were the fourth most important people at the scene, maybe the fifth.  Yourself and your partner are as one, the rest of your agency, other rescue agencies, bystanders, then victims.   So long as my partner and my crew go home safe, and I didn't let bystanders get hurt, even if the vic died I did my job.  Sounds harsh, but it's the truth.  Even though we do on a regular basis, firefighters are not supposed to take big risks to protect others.

So where did the tapes made of the front of the house go?
Where did the double metal doors go?
What started the fire?

guys, I'd like to add a bit of info to my first post.

The sniper I'm speaking of was Christopher Idunnohislastname.  He wrote a book after he resigned from the FBI after the Ruby Ridge tragedy.  In his book, and subsequent interviews, he has trashed the Lon Horuchi fucker, the commander of the operation at Ruby Ridge, and upper echelon personnel that were "in complete control".

The videos that I have seen are the ones with the UH-1H overhead on the day of the fire.  That helicopter had no door guns much less the pintle mounts.  Now I honestly cannot remember if there were people onboard other than the pilot in command, peter pilot, and crew chief.  Its been awhile since I've seen it.

The other video I remeber was from a news crew that had zoomed in.  It was a very blury shot, but I remember seeing an Federale in those dark blue raid suits come from around one of the tanks, and grab a Davidian that was escaping the flames, and pulled him/her behind the vehicle.

As for the FLIR video, I've seen that, and yeah, I can understand why some would say that it looks like the Feds are shooting.  No with that said, the man that lives one house due east of mine is a retired Army Sergant First Class(3up 2 down).  He was a crew chief on the UH-60L Blackhawks that had infra red.  He was trained numerous times on numerous systems, and in his opinion, the flashes are not gunfire.  Was he brought to testify? No.  However numerous others were, and the answers were all different.

I guess what I'm saying about this whole debacle is, I dont think  that all these "blood thirsty murdering agents" would have enough common sense to shut up for so long about such an intricate and evil plan.  I guess I just dont have that kinda faith in the people my government hires.

I do believe the situation should've been handled totally different.  I believe David Koresh should've been arrested by the Sherrif of McLenannan County, because the Sherrif told the ATF that he would rather avoid a possible bloodbath by taking him into custody by himself.  Here it seems the ATF wanted some glory, hence the cameras there during the raid.  During the siege, Koresh offered to surrender to the Sherrif numerous times, but the FBI wouldnt allow it.  That would've stopped the deaths of all those people.  

God damnit, common sense should prevail in this discussion, like it didnt prevail at Mt. Carmel.  Enough of the bullshit about when someone disagrees,"well we know who the FBI is in this group".  Thats retarded.

Waco: rules of engagement is the video I have.  I should buy the next one and will most likely find it early next year once I am done moving.  

My opinion comes down to the fact the ATF lied for the warrant.

There are problems with the warrent, there are problems about the atf enforcing child abuse stuff, there are problems with all sorts of stuff.

Overall, it was a mess from the word go.

I believe that this episode is what turned me from a normal public school peon to someone who really questioned those in power.

I doubt the true answers will ever come out.  The problem with this event is that from the warrent to the loss of the front doors for the researching afterwards, everything keeps getting screwed up or lost or was done improperly to begin with.

There are enough books and videos out there that anyone willing to research it can decide for themselves.

One thing I wish to mention about ammo cooking off is that it is my understanding that ammo that is not chambered in a firearm will be stopped by the heavy jacket firefighters wear when going into a burning building.  Ammo in the chamber that cooks off is almost like a round fired by pulling the trigger.  However a case of ammo cooking off is not going to have the ability that a chambered round offers.

This comes from some research on the net about ammo cooking off in a fire and as a redneck with several acres I may have witnessed someone proving it as well.  

bump for the late nite crew.

Since when do the BATF handle sexual child abuse?

Quoted: Since when do the BATF handle sexual child abuse?

man didn't you know? the actual name is the BATFECASAMAPAWTFROFLIBTL+1CIANSAABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVXYZ

Quoted: Quoted: Since when do the BATF handle sexual child abuse? man didn't you know? the actual name is the BATFECASAMAPAWTFROFLIBTL+1CIANSAABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVXYZ

I almost lost conciousness laughing at that.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Since when do the BATF handle sexual child abuse? man didn't you know? the actual name is the BATFECASAMAPAWTFROFLIBTL+1CIANSAABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVXYZ I almost lost conciousness laughing at that.

I'm thinkin it'd make a good sigline.

The same reason they do everything, "for your safety"...

They found burned bodies with bullet holes in the tops of their heads from 5.56 or 22 cal rounds, with all evidence pointing to helicopters shooting through the roofs into their skulls.

What about the 2 missing steel front doors? The ones that were key evidence in showing that ATF agents weren't shot at through the doors but they themselves shot into the doors.

- rem

What's the point of a "vent and burn" if someone is gonna put it out?

Quoted: They found burned bodies with bullet holes in the tops of their heads from 5.56 or 22 cal rounds, with all evidence pointing to helicopters shooting through the roofs into their skulls. - rem

Thats a bit of a stretch, and you know it.  5.56x45 or .22 caliber bullets damn well could've been fired by any adult standing over the kids.

All conspiracys to destroy America aside, imagine your home goes up in flames.  The FD shows up and you inform them that you have several thousand rounds of ammunition in there.

You think they're going to try to put it out or just let it burn while protecting neighboring structures?  Answer is the latter.

Quoted: All conspiracys to destroy America aside, imagine your home goes up in flames.  The FD shows up and you inform them that you have several thousand rounds of ammunition in there. You think they're going to try to put it out or just let it burn while protecting neighboring structures?  Answer is the latter.

Uh, as a firefighter that's been shot by a loaded .22 in a house fire I say this.  I'll be protecting the truck, 2 blocks away.

ETA But that's MY call, not the FBI's or anyone elses.  In the case of Waco, the FBI kept the FD out.

Quoted: They found burned bodies with bullet holes in the tops of their heads from 5.56 or 22 cal rounds, with all evidence pointing to helicopters shooting through the roofs into their skulls.

Negative. Those holes are how the alien 'brain bugs' were able to suck the brains out of them.

Hey, I am presenting as much evidence as anyone else making ludicrous claims in this thread...

Quoted: Quoted: All conspiracys to destroy America aside, imagine your home goes up in flames.  The FD shows up and you inform them that you have several thousand rounds of ammunition in there. You think they're going to try to put it out or just let it burn while protecting neighboring structures?  Answer is the latter. Uh, as a firefighter that's been shot by a loaded .22 in a house fire I say this.  I'll be protecting the truck, 2 blocks away. ETA But that's MY call, not the FBI's or anyone elses.  In the case of Waco, the FBI kept the FD out.

And I'm agreeing with you.

The on topic answer here is that the firefighters held up because it was not safe for them to put out that blaze.

Quoted: Quoted: All conspiracys to destroy America aside, imagine your home goes up in flames.  The FD shows up and you inform them that you have several thousand rounds of ammunition in there. You think they're going to try to put it out or just let it burn while protecting neighboring structures?  Answer is the latter. Uh, as a firefighter that's been shot by a loaded .22 in a house fire I say this.  I'll be protecting the truck, 2 blocks away. ETA But that's MY call, not the FBI's or anyone elses.  In the case of Waco, the FBI kept the FD out.

In case anyone has not heard yet , Dusty_C has, in fact, been shot by a loaded .22 in a house fire.

Quoted: Quoted: You're rediculous. You believe that hundreds of FBI/ATF participated in or at least had direct knowledge of gunning down dozens of innocent women and children with a machine gun as they fled a burning building, and not only that but kept that secret for over 10 years, and you call me ridiculous?  hahaha.

There would have been less than 30 agents directly involved in the final attack. All the others were so far away they could barely see the site. Man, you have got to stop posting about this until you at least watch rules of engagment.

I don't blame the FD for not going in. The FBI had set that place up to burn like it was full of gasoline, there was no stopping it. That building was a tinder box and then they filled it with flammible cs gas, which, when burned emits cynide gas. The one survivor said that exsplosion ran thru the building like a train.

There is tons of evidence, way more than that stupid second shooter BS. Do some real research before you try to defend what happened there. You will be shocked.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: All conspiracys to destroy America aside, imagine your home goes up in flames.  The FD shows up and you inform them that you have several thousand rounds of ammunition in there. You think they're going to try to put it out or just let it burn while protecting neighboring structures?  Answer is the latter. Uh, as a firefighter that's been shot by a loaded .22 in a house fire I say this.  I'll be protecting the truck, 2 blocks away. ETA But that's MY call, not the FBI's or anyone elses.  In the case of Waco, the FBI kept the FD out. And I'm agreeing with you. The on topic answer here is that the firefighters held up because it was not safe for them to put out that blaze.

I will back you up here.  it was not safe to inititiate operations.  Any officer that would have permitted his/her men/women to perform firefighting operations would be considered an incompetent idiot.  What the hell are people thinking?  That firefighters approach a fire with a hose in one hand and a .45 in the other?  My fxxxing God, what a bunch of idiots.  

Quoted: They found burned bodies with bullet holes in the tops of their heads from 5.56 or 22 cal rounds, with all evidence pointing to helicopters shooting through the roofs into their skulls. What about the 2 missing steel front doors? The ones that were key evidence in showing that ATF agents weren't shot at through the doors but they themselves shot into the doors. - rem

Dude, if you are going to make crazy, way out there, bullshit up, at least make it worthwile, such as this:
Actually, all evidence shows that it was Janet Reno, who shot all the kids a la "coup de grace" style, and then afterwards the FBI/ATF agents gathered all the bodies, and had a BBQ, feasting on the flesh of their innocent victims.  It was the BBQ fire that got out of control and burned the complex down.  Oh, and there is a blurry FLIR tape that's hotly contested that shows all of this, but of course, I can not be bothered to show you this tape on the internet.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You're rediculous. You believe that hundreds of FBI/ATF participated in or at least had direct knowledge of gunning down dozens of innocent women and children with a machine gun as they fled a burning building, and not only that but kept that secret for over 10 years, and you call me ridiculous?  hahaha.   There would have been less than 30 agents directly involved in the final attack. All the others were so far away they could barely see the site. Man, you have got to stop posting about this until you at least watch rules of engagment.

Ok, so you believe that 30 agents purposefully massacred innocent women and children with a machine gun as they tried to escape from a burning building (was this before Bill Clinton got on the phone and demanded the Branch Davidians killed to a man or after?).  And then afterwards, all the investigators conspired to keep the massacre a secret, and no one has spoken of it in more than 10 years.  So, how does this make your theory less crazy?  

Quoted: Quoted: They found burned bodies with bullet holes in the tops of their heads from 5.56 or 22 cal rounds, with all evidence pointing to helicopters shooting through the roofs into their skulls. What about the 2 missing steel front doors? The ones that were key evidence in showing that ATF agents weren't shot at through the doors but they themselves shot into the doors. - rem Dude, if you are going to make crazy, way out there, bullshit up, at least make it worthwile, such as this: Actually, all evidence shows that it was Janet Reno, who shot all the kids a la "coup de grace" style, and then afterwards the FBI/ATF agents gathered all the bodies, and had a BBQ, feasting on the flesh of their innocent victims.  It was the BBQ fire that got out of control and burned the complex down.  Oh, and there is a blurry FLIR tape that's hotly contested that shows all of this, but of course, I can not be bothered to show you this tape on the internet.

 

Quoted: Quoted: You're rediculous. You believe that hundreds of FBI/ATF participated in or at least had direct knowledge of gunning down dozens of innocent women and children with a machine gun as they fled a burning building, and not only that but kept that secret for over 10 years, and you call me ridiculous?  hahaha.

So how come, after 10 years, none of these people can tell us what happened to the front doors?  Did they fall off the truck?  Just misplaced?  Who saw them last?  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You're rediculous. You believe that hundreds of FBI/ATF participated in or at least had direct knowledge of gunning down dozens of innocent women and children with a machine gun as they fled a burning building, and not only that but kept that secret for over 10 years, and you call me ridiculous?  hahaha.   So how come, after 10 years, none of these people can tell us what happened to the front doors?  Did they fall off the truck?  Just miss placed?  Who saw them last?

They were destroyed before Texas DPS could examine them.  It was a true coverup.

How the .gov manages to lose a big steel door that would clear up who shot first still makes me wonder how anyone can still believe the goverment on waco.

To much evidence just went *poof* uhh sorry cant find it to be coicental. you dont just lose a steel door among other things.