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Posted: 12/15/2005 2:35:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 2:42:48 PM EDT by motown_steve]
The only true test of a bullets effectiveness performed by shooting ballistic gelatin with the bullet. This is due to the fact that impacting ballistic gelatin will not cause the bullet to perform in the same way that it would when used against an attacker and the block of ballistic gelatin does not contain any obstructions that would cause the trajectory of the bullet to change. Real world examples of shootings are meaningless since they interject uncontrolled variables which cannot effectively be reproduced when testing against ballistic gelatin.

Is that about the size of it?
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:38:15 PM EDT
The snausberries taste like snausberries
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:46:32 PM EDT
Who ever heard of a snausberry!
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:51:58 PM EDT
Its a Crapshoot, so go big and fast and you will have the best results.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:59:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mjohn3006:
The snausberries taste like snausberries









That line gets me everytime! Everytime, I tell ya man!






"The snozzberries taste like snozzberries!"

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:01:38 PM EDT
You could also shoot hundreds of farm animals.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:05:25 PM EDT
So lemme get this straight... Bad guys are full of gelatin , and bullets won't go through them unless
they twist 7 times. Am I close?
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:06:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
The only true test of a bullets effectiveness performed by shooting ballistic gelatin with the bullet. This is due to the fact that impacting ballistic gelatin will not cause the bullet to perform in the same way that it would when used against an attacker and the block of ballistic gelatin does not contain any obstructions that would cause the trajectory of the bullet to change. Real world examples of shootings are meaningless since they interject uncontrolled variables which cannot effectively be reproduced when testing against ballistic gelatin.

Is that about the size of it?



Yup. Ballistic Gelatin is "scientific", where real world observations aren't, so they don't count.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:10:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 3:41:27 PM EDT by Dolomite]
And do you know what started the jello mania?


Anybody?


It's all because on April 11th, 1986 the first round of twenty 115 grain 9mm Winchester Silvertips fired by Gerald Dove from his 4" barreled S&W M459 that made it into Michael Platt came 1" shy of penetrating the wall of Platt's heart after passing through his upper arm. Platt went on to double tap Agent Dove in the head with a Ruger Mini-14 at close range.

That's why, according to the FBI; 12" of penetration is good and 11.9" is bad.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:10:51 PM EDT
Who needs verifiable data when you can just use marketing hype and selected anecdotes instead?

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:12:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomislav:
Who needs verifiable data when you can just use marketing hype and selected anecdotes instead?

www.extremeshockusa.com/gfx_splash/top_2.jpg



Them are some good rounds! The lightning makes them go faster!!!
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:15:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By Tomislav:
Who needs verifiable data when you can just use marketing hype and selected anecdotes instead?

www.extremeshockusa.com/gfx_splash/top_2.jpg



Them are some good rounds! The lightning makes them go faster!!!



Hell yes! Why else would REAL-DEAL 'agents' use them!?
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:17:13 PM EDT
I thought the chuck roast had to be at 98 degrees, but if it was only at 90 degrees the BMT won't "explode" like it did in the tango's ass over in Iraq
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:19:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dolomite:
That's why, according to the FBI; 12" of penetration is good and 11.9" is bad.



And bringing a pistol to a rifle fight is worse.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:21:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 3:22:28 PM EDT by fizassist]
No, I think you have it wrong:

Ballistic gelatin tests are useless because they test the reproduceable aspects of terminal performance in a controlled environment, allowing a fair comparison of all rounds.

Real world shootings are the only true measure of terminal performance because they are completely random and have no statistical significance whatsoever. Anybody can say "well, round XXX once killed a guy and round YYY once didn't", which is much better than making statistically significant statements.

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:25:42 PM EDT
You need extreme shock fangface ammo.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:26:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 3:26:42 PM EDT by motown_steve]

Originally Posted By fizassist:
No, I think you have it wrong:

Ballistic gelatin tests are useless because they test the reproduceable aspects of terminal performance in a controlled environment, allowing a fair comparison of all rounds.

Real world shootings are the only true measure of terminal performance because they are completely random and have no statistical significance whatsoever. Anybody can say "well, round XXX once killed a guy and round YYY once didn't", which is much better than making statistically significant statements.




No, I'm with you. If I ever get jumped by a bowl of Jello or a tub of axle grease, then I'm going to want to know just how far my rounds will penetrate.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:30:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fizassist:

Anybody can say "well, round XXX once killed a guy and round YYY once didn't", which is much better than making statistically significant statements.



One man was shot in the face with a 9mm and lived. Another guy was shot in the face with a .22 LR NAA revolver and died from his wound.

The (city withheld) police department fired over 50 rounds of 9mm at a suspect, who escaped on foot with minor injuries. A homeowner with a .22 rifle confronted an armed intruder in his home and shot the intruder dead.

Clearly the .22 LR is a superior round.

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:32:46 PM EDT
In Cars, Cocks and Calibers, There's No Replacement for Displacement...
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:33:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:39:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KS_Physicist:

Originally Posted By fizassist:

Anybody can say "well, round XXX once killed a guy and round YYY once didn't", which is much better than making statistically significant statements.



One man was shot in the face with a 9mm and lived. Another guy was shot in the face with a .22 LR NAA revolver and died from his wound.

The (city withheld) police department fired over 50 rounds of 9mm at a suspect, who escaped on foot with minor injuries. A homeowner with a .22 rifle confronted an armed intruder in his home and shot the intruder dead.

Clearly the .22 LR is a superior round.




Clearly.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:44:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By Tomislav:
Who needs verifiable data when you can just use marketing hype and selected anecdotes instead?

www.extremeshockusa.com/gfx_splash/top_2.jpg



Them are some good rounds! The lightning makes them go faster!!!



Those rounds are so extreme when you shoot them you exist in three places at once.

And one of you is black.

But not your hands.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:47:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 3:47:59 PM EDT by Tomislav]

Originally Posted By Jetlag:
And one of you is black.

But not your hands.



Heh, I was too awed by the ammo to even notice the Al Jolson impersonation back there.

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:28:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dolomite:
And do you know what started the jello mania?



A NASA scientist by the name of Duncan MacPherson got the ball rolling. When he teamed up with Dr. Martin Fackler, the rest was history.


Anybody?


It's all because on April 11th, 1986 the first round of twenty 115 grain 9mm Winchester Silvertips fired by Gerald Dove from his 4" barreled S&W M459 that made it into Michael Platt came 1" shy of penetrating the wall of Platt's heart after passing through his upper arm. Platt went on to double tap Agent Dove in the head with a Ruger Mini-14 at close range.

That's why, according to the FBI; 12" of penetration is good and 11.9" is bad.



The IWBA made it EXPLICITLY clear in their handgun performance criteria that assigning arbitrary qualitative values of "12 inches = good, 11.9 inches = bad" was stupid and not in spirit with the purpose of ammunition testing.

Hey guys, if you want to buy into Marshall & Sanow's one-shot-stop bullshit and do cartwheels over make-believe tests involving French goats, more power to ya.
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