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Posted: 12/15/2005 10:19:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 10:22:51 AM EDT by M4-AK]
NAACP says today McNabb is overated because he is black.... blah blah blah

Seems Rush is right. Maybe he will get Michael Irvins job at ESPN?

M4-AKwww.pnionline.com/dnblog/attytood/archives/002540.html
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:41:10 AM EDT
I got so tired of hearing McNabb, McNabb, McNabb during every pre-game, post-game and even comparisons during games he wasn't playing in.

I watched him throw away the SuperBowl and laughed since the commentators started blaming except ole Donovan. Then in at least the last 2 games he played this year (or is it 3) he lost them with an interception at the end. Earlier in the year when the Eagles won a game, McNabb was given the credit although he went 3 and out late in the 4th and then the defense rolled out and intercepted the ball running it back for a touchdown--winning the game.

I wouldn't care otherwise, but his name is put into my face 357 times every Sunday!

Last year the Eagles only scored 3 points against the Steelers.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 12:44:48 PM EDT
McNabb says he thought the Naacp was for negroes, not against them.

M4-AK
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 12:50:42 PM EDT
Funny how the truth trumps PC bullshit every time, eh?
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 12:59:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 1:00:52 PM EDT by Billybob2002]

Originally Posted By M4-AK:
NAACP says today McNabb is overated because he is black.... blah blah blah

Seems Rush is right. Maybe he will get Michael Irvins job at ESPN?

M4-AKwww.pnionline.com/dnblog/attytood/archives/002540.html




sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2260096&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines



The national president of the NAACP said Thursday that he was outraged by comments in a column about Donovan McNabb written by the Philadelphia chapter president.


NAACP president and CEO Bruce S. Gordon responded to the controversy caused by J. Whyatt Mondesire in his Nov. 27 column for the Philadelphia Sunday Sun. Mondesire, who owns the paper, criticized the Philadelphia Eagles quarterback's leadership skills and said he "played the race card" in explaining why he no longer runs the ball.

"Whatever possessed Mondesire to take such a negative position on a positive person like McNabb is beyond me," Gordon said. "The NAACP has many civil rights issues that require our attention. Criticizing Donovan McNabb is not one of them."

Mondesire said that his column critical of McNabb was based on his opinions alone and did not necessarily reflect the position of either the local Philadelphia NAACP or that of the national organization.

Earlier in the week, McNabb responded sharply to the column, which called him "mediocre at best."

"If you talk about my play, that's one thing," McNabb told the Philadelphia Inquirer. "When you talk about my race, now we've got problems. If you're trying to make a name off my name, again, I hope your closet is clean because something is going to come out about you ... I always thought the NAACP supported African Americans and didn't talk bad about them. Now you learn a little bit more."

Gordon will try to repair some of the damage.

"In light of Mondesire's criticism it has become a personal priority of mine to set the record straight," Gordon said. "I intend to reach out to Mr. McNabb personally to offer my apology as well as my support."

McNabb's season ended last month when he decided to have surgery for a sports hernia. It's been a miserable year for the five-time Pro Bowl selection, starting with his feud with now-banished wideout Terrell Owens.



Personal opinion it seems!


McNabb says he thought the Naacp was for negroes, not against them.

M4-AK



He said African Americans....
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 1:05:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Billybob2002:

Originally Posted By M4-AK:
NAACP says today McNabb is overated because he is black.... blah blah blah

Seems Rush is right. Maybe he will get Michael Irvins job at ESPN?

M4-AKwww.pnionline.com/dnblog/attytood/archives/002540.html




sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2260096&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines



The national president of the NAACP said Thursday that he was outraged by comments in a column about Donovan McNabb written by the Philadelphia chapter president.


NAACP president and CEO Bruce S. Gordon responded to the controversy caused by J. Whyatt Mondesire in his Nov. 27 column for the Philadelphia Sunday Sun. Mondesire, who owns the paper, criticized the Philadelphia Eagles quarterback's leadership skills and said he "played the race card" in explaining why he no longer runs the ball.

"Whatever possessed Mondesire to take such a negative position on a positive person like McNabb is beyond me," Gordon said. "The NAACP has many civil rights issues that require our attention. Criticizing Donovan McNabb is not one of them."

Mondesire said that his column critical of McNabb was based on his opinions alone and did not necessarily reflect the position of either the local Philadelphia NAACP or that of the national organization.

Earlier in the week, McNabb responded sharply to the column, which called him "mediocre at best."

"If you talk about my play, that's one thing," McNabb told the Philadelphia Inquirer. "When you talk about my race, now we've got problems. If you're trying to make a name off my name, again, I hope your closet is clean because something is going to come out about you ... I always thought the NAACP supported African Americans and didn't talk bad about them. Now you learn a little bit more."

Gordon will try to repair some of the damage.

"In light of Mondesire's criticism it has become a personal priority of mine to set the record straight," Gordon said. "I intend to reach out to Mr. McNabb personally to offer my apology as well as my support."

McNabb's season ended last month when he decided to have surgery for a sports hernia. It's been a miserable year for the five-time Pro Bowl selection, starting with his feud with now-banished wideout Terrell Owens.



Personal opinion it seems!


McNabb says he thought the Naacp was for negroes, not against them.

M4-AK



He said African Americans....




Rush gave an opinion also. No more no less.

M4-AK
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 1:11:35 PM EDT
I hate Rush.


I hated the fact he was on talking about football.

But basically he said what everone else was to scared to say. Especcially that year which was 2003. McNabb sucked that year. i mean really sucked. It was a valid OPINION that Rush had but you cannot use numbers and stats from one year to judge a player. See McNabb was great the next year. And he was though of highly when coming into the league.

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 1:52:46 PM EDT
Black QBs are still a touchy subject. It seems that average Black QBs will be elevated by the sports writers, because they want to see them do well. Besides Doug Williams (and the best quarter of football in his life, and about any other play for that matter) Black QBs have been more of a "sideshow"...
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 1:56:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:
Black QBs are still a touchy subject. It seems that average Black QBs will be elevated by the sports writers, because they want to see them do well. Besides Doug Williams (and the best quarter of football in his life, and about any other play for that matter) Black QBs have been more of a "sideshow"...



Warren Moon is not a sideshow man. Nor Vince Young, Mike Vick, MVP Steve Mcnair, etc.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 1:59:37 PM EDT
I love Rush!
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:01:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:
Black QBs are still a touchy subject. It seems that average Black QBs will be elevated by the sports writers, because they want to see them do well. Besides Doug Williams (and the best quarter of football in his life, and about any other play for that matter) Black QBs have been more of a "sideshow"...



Warren Moon is not a sideshow man. Nor Vince Young, Mike Vick, MVP Steve Mcnair, etc.




Warren Moon couldnt get a job in the NFL until after he played for the Toronto Argonauts.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:01:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:
Black QBs are still a touchy subject. It seems that average Black QBs will be elevated by the sports writers, because they want to see them do well. Besides Doug Williams (and the best quarter of football in his life, and about any other play for that matter) Black QBs have been more of a "sideshow"...



Warren Moon is not a sideshow man. Nor Vince Young, Mike Vick, MVP Steve Mcnair, etc.



In the NFL, rightly or wrongly, Superbowls are all that matter...besides Doug Williams, squat. And yes, McNabb lost the game for the Eagles in the 4th quarter last year. TO was right about that...

Vince Young, hasn't played in the NFL yet...we'll see what happens. McNair, he is a human punching bag who is past his prime. Vick, he has one game with 3 passing TDs. Moon, tons of yards but no real playoff success...
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:06:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 2:09:12 PM EDT by FredM]

Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:
Black QBs are still a touchy subject. It seems that average Black QBs will be elevated by the sports writers, because they want to see them do well. Besides Doug Williams (and the best quarter of football in his life, and about any other play for that matter) Black QBs have been more of a "sideshow"...



Warren Moon is not a sideshow man. Nor Vince Young, Mike Vick, MVP Steve Mcnair, etc.



In the NFL, rightly or wrongly, Superbowls are all that matter...besides Doug Williams, squat. And yes, McNabb lost the game for the Eagles in the 4th quarter last year. TO was right about that...

Vince Young, hasn't played in the NFL yet...we'll see what happens. McNair, he is a human punching bag who is past his prime. Vick, he has one game with 3 passing TDs. Moon, tons of yards but no real playoff success...



So according to you since McNair only played in a superbowl but didn;t win he is a sideshow? To bad I guess when he goes home and polishes his MVP trophy he can be rest assured he is a sideshow.

I guess Marino is a sideshow to right? Not possibly one of the best ever. i mean since all that matters is superbowls he is sans ring. I wonder why he was a 1st ballot hall of famer. Those people must not know near as much as you.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:09:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M4-AK:

Originally Posted By Billybob2002:

Originally Posted By M4-AK:
NAACP says today McNabb is overated because he is black.... blah blah blah

Seems Rush is right. Maybe he will get Michael Irvins job at ESPN?

M4-AKwww.pnionline.com/dnblog/attytood/archives/002540.html




sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2260096&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines



The national president of the NAACP said Thursday that he was outraged by comments in a column about Donovan McNabb written by the Philadelphia chapter president.


NAACP president and CEO Bruce S. Gordon responded to the controversy caused by J. Whyatt Mondesire in his Nov. 27 column for the Philadelphia Sunday Sun. Mondesire, who owns the paper, criticized the Philadelphia Eagles quarterback's leadership skills and said he "played the race card" in explaining why he no longer runs the ball.

"Whatever possessed Mondesire to take such a negative position on a positive person like McNabb is beyond me," Gordon said. "The NAACP has many civil rights issues that require our attention. Criticizing Donovan McNabb is not one of them."

Mondesire said that his column critical of McNabb was based on his opinions alone and did not necessarily reflect the position of either the local Philadelphia NAACP or that of the national organization.

Earlier in the week, McNabb responded sharply to the column, which called him "mediocre at best."

"If you talk about my play, that's one thing," McNabb told the Philadelphia Inquirer. "When you talk about my race, now we've got problems. If you're trying to make a name off my name, again, I hope your closet is clean because something is going to come out about you ... I always thought the NAACP supported African Americans and didn't talk bad about them. Now you learn a little bit more."

Gordon will try to repair some of the damage.

"In light of Mondesire's criticism it has become a personal priority of mine to set the record straight," Gordon said. "I intend to reach out to Mr. McNabb personally to offer my apology as well as my support."

McNabb's season ended last month when he decided to have surgery for a sports hernia. It's been a miserable year for the five-time Pro Bowl selection, starting with his feud with now-banished wideout Terrell Owens.



Personal opinion it seems!


McNabb says he thought the Naacp was for negroes, not against them.

M4-AK



He said African Americans....




Rush gave an opinion also. No more no less.

M4-AK



Your post:


NAACP says today McNabb is overated because he is black.... blah blah blah


Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:12:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:
So according to you since McNair only played in a superbowl but didn;t win he is a sideshow? To bad I guess when he goes home and polishes his MVP trophy he can be rest assured he is a sideshow.

I guess Marino is a sideshow to right? Not possibly one of the best ever. i mean since all that matters is superbowls he is sans ring. I wonder why he was a 1st ballot hall of famer. Those people must not know near as much as you.


The best ever win in the big games. McNair, Marino, McNabb all have had opprotunities, but have not pulled the trigger. It's a shame, they all have considerable talent, but I won't place them in the same league as Montana, Young, Aikman, et al.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:12:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:

So according to you since McNair only played in a superbowl but didn;t win he is a sideshow? To bad I guess when he goes home and polishes his MVP trophy he can be rest assured he is a sideshow.

I guess Marino is a sideshow to right? Not possibly one of the best ever. i mean since all that matters is superbowls he is sans ring. I wonder why he was a 1st ballot hall of famer. Those people must not know near as much as you.



McNair and Marino can't say what Favre and Aikman can say, they won a championship. Of 39 Superbowl winners, in the QB position one has been black. McNabb should have been number 2, but he failed in late in the game. McNair got close, but again, failed. Marino, well, many will say he made sure they never had a running game worth a damn because that would take away from his yards. Oh well, he has his yards, and no ring. Good for him...
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:14:54 PM EDT
I cannot believe this. I heard it today on sportscenter and they didn't mention rush AT ALL.....
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:15:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By FredM:
So according to you since McNair only played in a superbowl but didn;t win he is a sideshow? To bad I guess when he goes home and polishes his MVP trophy he can be rest assured he is a sideshow.

I guess Marino is a sideshow to right? Not possibly one of the best ever. i mean since all that matters is superbowls he is sans ring. I wonder why he was a 1st ballot hall of famer. Those people must not know near as much as you.


The best ever win in the big games. McNair, Marino, McNabb all have had opprotunities, but have not pulled the trigger. It's a shame, they all have considerable talent, but I won't place them in the same league as Montana, Young, Aikman, et al.



+1...some are clutch players, they rise to the top when needed. Others are stat whores that rack up massive yds during the season. IMHO Marino isn't close to a guy like Montana, who proved he could win ...4 times...
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:16:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By FredM:
So according to you since McNair only played in a superbowl but didn;t win he is a sideshow? To bad I guess when he goes home and polishes his MVP trophy he can be rest assured he is a sideshow.

I guess Marino is a sideshow to right? Not possibly one of the best ever. i mean since all that matters is superbowls he is sans ring. I wonder why he was a 1st ballot hall of famer. Those people must not know near as much as you.


The best ever win in the big games. McNair, Marino, McNabb all have had opprotunities, but have not pulled the trigger. It's a shame, they all have considerable talent, but I won't place them in the same league as Montana, Young, Aikman, et al.



+1...some are clutch players, they rise to the top when needed. Others are stat whores that rack up massive yds during the season. IMHO Marino isn't close to a guy like Montana, who proved he could win ...4 times...


Football is not baseball. You don't play for individual stats. You play to win the Superbowl. A career in the NFL isn't measured by numbers, although the fantasy league geeks are trying to change that, it's measured by the number of rings.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:17:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:

Originally Posted By FredM:

So according to you since McNair only played in a superbowl but didn;t win he is a sideshow? To bad I guess when he goes home and polishes his MVP trophy he can be rest assured he is a sideshow.

I guess Marino is a sideshow to right? Not possibly one of the best ever. i mean since all that matters is superbowls he is sans ring. I wonder why he was a 1st ballot hall of famer. Those people must not know near as much as you.



McNair and Marino can't say what Favre and Aikman can say, they won a championship. Of 39 Superbowl winners, in the QB position one has been black. McNabb should have been number 2, but he failed in late in the game. McNair got close, but again, failed. Marino, well, many will say he made sure they never had a running game worth a damn because that would take away from his yards. Oh well, he has his yards, and no ring. Good for him...



My point is that rings are not a judge of the individual in a team sport.

You said black QBs are a sideshow. This is flat wrong. Sideshows do not get MVP trophies.

Say what you want about Vick's numbers. But he is a winner. Atlanta with him is better than without him and their backup has better throwing numbers.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:20:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:

Originally Posted By FredM:

So according to you since McNair only played in a superbowl but didn;t win he is a sideshow? To bad I guess when he goes home and polishes his MVP trophy he can be rest assured he is a sideshow.

I guess Marino is a sideshow to right? Not possibly one of the best ever. i mean since all that matters is superbowls he is sans ring. I wonder why he was a 1st ballot hall of famer. Those people must not know near as much as you.



McNair and Marino can't say what Favre and Aikman can say, they won a championship. Of 39 Superbowl winners, in the QB position one has been black. McNabb should have been number 2, but he failed in late in the game. McNair got close, but again, failed. Marino, well, many will say he made sure they never had a running game worth a damn because that would take away from his yards. Oh well, he has his yards, and no ring. Good for him...



My point is that rings are not a judge of the individual in a team sport.

You said black QBs are a sideshow. This is flat wrong. Sideshows do not get MVP trophies.

Say what you want about Vick's numbers. But he is a winner. Atlanta with him is better than without him and their backup has better throwing numbers.


It's football not baseball.

Elway lost a Superbowl, but the great ones get back and win.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:25:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:

My point is that rings are not a judge of the individual in a team sport.

You said black QBs are a sideshow. This is flat wrong. Sideshows do not get MVP trophies.

Say what you want about Vick's numbers. But he is a winner. Atlanta with him is better than without him and their backup has better throwing numbers.



What has Vick won?

Case in point...Manning. He has to get to the Super Bowl, and win it, to get this monkey off his back. He has proven, so far, he can't win the big game in the playoffs. And he is regarded as a much better QB than either McNabb or Vick. Right now, he can't compare himself to Brady, regardless of his TD stats last year. Those TDs during the season didn't mean shit because he couldn't win the big game. Football is all about the big game...

My point about the sideshow is that if you listened to the media about guys like Vick, you would think he is one of the best QBs ever. He has one game with 3 throwing TDs, and has never won a big game. There is so much hype with him it is unbelievable. Honestly he isn't that much more athletic than Mike McMahon...who has proven really to be no better or worse than McNabb this year...
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:27:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:
Black QBs are still a touchy subject. It seems that average Black QBs will be elevated by the sports writers, because they want to see them do well. Besides Doug Williams (and the best quarter of football in his life, and about any other play for that matter) Black QBs have been more of a "sideshow"...



Warren Moon is not a sideshow man. Nor Vince Young, Mike Vick, MVP Steve Mcnair, etc.




Sorry, Mike Vick is not a premier QB, he's just the only guy on the Falcons that is doing anything in the pocket. If you look at his stats, he would make a much better running back or wide reciever. I'm not a fan of the Falcons at all (Steelers fan here), but the Falcons need to draft another QB.



I'l do the standar ATL chant, GO FALCONS, AND TAKE THE BRAVES WITH YA!
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:29:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:
It's football not baseball.

Elway lost a Superbowl, but the great ones get back and win.



So

Most Completions, Career: 4,967
Most Yards Passing, Career: 61,361
Most Touchdown Passes, Career: 420
Highest Pass Rating, Rookie Season: 96.0 in 1983
Highest Completion Percentage, Rookie Season: 58.45 in 1983 (296-173)
Most Yards Gained, Season: 5,084 in 1984
Most Games, 400 or more Yards Passing, Career: 13
Most Games, 400 or more Yards Passing, Season: 4 in 1984
Most Games, 300 or more Yards Passing, Career: 60
Most Seasons, 3,000 or more Yards Passing: 13 (1984-92, 1994-95, 1997-98)
Most Games, Four or more Touchdown Passes, Career: 21
100 TD Passes in Fewest Amount of Games to Start Career: 44 (9/7/86 at S.D.)
200 TD passes in Fewest Amount of Games to Start Career: 89 ( 9/17/89 at N.E.)
300 TD passes in Fewest Amount of Games to Start Career: 157 ( 9/4/94 vs. N.E.)

Does not qualify as a great one?
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:30:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DeltaAir423:

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:
Black QBs are still a touchy subject. It seems that average Black QBs will be elevated by the sports writers, because they want to see them do well. Besides Doug Williams (and the best quarter of football in his life, and about any other play for that matter) Black QBs have been more of a "sideshow"...



Warren Moon is not a sideshow man. Nor Vince Young, Mike Vick, MVP Steve Mcnair, etc.




Sorry, Mike Vick is not a premier QB, he's just the only guy on the Falcons that is doing anything in the pocket. If you look at his stats, he would make a much better running back or wide reciever. I'm not a fan of the Falcons at all (Steelers fan here), but the Falcons need to draft another QB.



I'l do the standar ATL chant, GO FALCONS, AND TAKE THE BRAVES WITH YA!



Stats can also be W and L. He has alot of W's.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:32:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 2:33:13 PM EDT by jthuang]
[I previously posted this on GlockTalk, but it's relevant here.]

It is wrong to lay 100% of the blame for the Eagles's lack of a hurry-up offense on McNabb.

If one watches recent Eagles games in addition to the Super Bowl, you would know that a large part of the Eagles's inability to run an effective two-minute drill, without reverting to the no-huddle, is Andy Reid.

Eagles fans will know that each offensive playcall in Philadelphia has to go through not one, not two, NOT THREE, BUT FOUR @!@#%$@# INDIVIDUALS before the ball gets snapped from Hank Fraley to Donnie Mac. There's no hurry-up offense because by the time the call gets to McNabb (person #4), Reid and Crew have chewed up 15-20 second of the playclock and there's no time for McNabb to audible or otherwise change the play!

This is Andy Reid's doing. Pure and simple. Each playcall goes from Andy Reid to Brad Childress to Marty Morningwheg (sp?) and then to McNabb. This inexcusable situation is engendered because Andy Reid's arrogance refuses to give up the job of playcaller, despite ample evidence that it's not his strong suit.

Reid is the one who insists that each offensive playcall go through Marty Morningwheg, who Detroit Lions fans will remember as no football genius. Let's see, how did Joey Harrington and his crew of talented wideouts do when Marty was head coach of the Lions? Hint: Jay Leno didn't make fun of the Lions on a nightly basis because they were a GOOD team.

Andy Reid's insistence on this bureaucratic morass drains the playclock while THREE guys on the sidelines bicker about what play should be run. Let's leave aside Andy's now-disproven arrogant notion that he was the next coming of Air Coryell and forget about running the ball. There's no reason why there should be such a cluster @@#$%@# on the sidelines when it comes to playcalling!

Contrast Peyton Manning and the (currently) undefeated Indianapolis Colts. Ever see Peyton at the line? Peyton hoots and hollers for twenty-odd seconds on most plays, re-arranging the offense based on the reads. He probably has enough time to write a few lines for his next MasterCard commercial ("cut that meat! cut that meat!"). When was the last time McNabb did that?

The lack of hurry-up offense in the waning moments of the last Super Bowl might be because of McNabb's injury or maybe it was because he cracks under pressure. But the author is sadly mistaken if he thinks the sole cause of the lack of a hurry-up offense is McNabb's. Big Red (Andy Reid) needs to get his head out of his LA Weight Loss books and lose the arrogance which has turned this Super Bowl contender into a sub-.500 team.

A mediocre hurry-up offense would have put David Akers (who is almost automatic within 50 yards) in position to tie the game at 23 points apiece. A good hurry up offense would have scored a TD and won the game for the Eagles. McNabb and the Eagles blew out teams by 20, 30+ points last year and he has been to 5 or so Pro Bowls. He's not a bad quarterback.

Again, it's not all McNabb's fault the Eagles lost the Super Bowl. Andy Reid shares a significant portion, if not the majority, of the blame.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:36:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By dport:
It's football not baseball.

Elway lost a Superbowl, but the great ones get back and win.



So

Most Completions, Career: 4,967
Most Yards Passing, Career: 61,361
Most Touchdown Passes, Career: 420
Highest Pass Rating, Rookie Season: 96.0 in 1983
Highest Completion Percentage, Rookie Season: 58.45 in 1983 (296-173)
Most Yards Gained, Season: 5,084 in 1984
Most Games, 400 or more Yards Passing, Career: 13
Most Games, 400 or more Yards Passing, Season: 4 in 1984
Most Games, 300 or more Yards Passing, Career: 60
Most Seasons, 3,000 or more Yards Passing: 13 (1984-92, 1994-95, 1997-98)
Most Games, Four or more Touchdown Passes, Career: 21
100 TD Passes in Fewest Amount of Games to Start Career: 44 (9/7/86 at S.D.)
200 TD passes in Fewest Amount of Games to Start Career: 89 ( 9/17/89 at N.E.)
300 TD passes in Fewest Amount of Games to Start Career: 157 ( 9/4/94 vs. N.E.)

Does not qualify as a great one?



Are you admitting to being a fantasy football fan?
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:38:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By dport:
It's football not baseball.

Elway lost a Superbowl, but the great ones get back and win.



So

Most Completions, Career: 4,967
Most Yards Passing, Career: 61,361
Most Touchdown Passes, Career: 420
Highest Pass Rating, Rookie Season: 96.0 in 1983
Highest Completion Percentage, Rookie Season: 58.45 in 1983 (296-173)
Most Yards Gained, Season: 5,084 in 1984
Most Games, 400 or more Yards Passing, Career: 13
Most Games, 400 or more Yards Passing, Season: 4 in 1984
Most Games, 300 or more Yards Passing, Career: 60
Most Seasons, 3,000 or more Yards Passing: 13 (1984-92, 1994-95, 1997-98)
Most Games, Four or more Touchdown Passes, Career: 21
100 TD Passes in Fewest Amount of Games to Start Career: 44 (9/7/86 at S.D.)
200 TD passes in Fewest Amount of Games to Start Career: 89 ( 9/17/89 at N.E.)
300 TD passes in Fewest Amount of Games to Start Career: 157 ( 9/4/94 vs. N.E.)

Does not qualify as a great one?


He was very good, but not great.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:39:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:

Originally Posted By FredM:

My point is that rings are not a judge of the individual in a team sport.

You said black QBs are a sideshow. This is flat wrong. Sideshows do not get MVP trophies.

Say what you want about Vick's numbers. But he is a winner. Atlanta with him is better than without him and their backup has better throwing numbers.



What has Vick won?

Case in point...Manning. He has to get to the Super Bowl, and win it, to get this monkey off his back. He has proven, so far, he can't win the big game in the playoffs. And he is regarded as a much better QB than either McNabb or Vick. Right now, he can't compare himself to Brady, regardless of his TD stats last year. Those TDs during the season didn't mean shit because he couldn't win the big game. Football is all about the big game...

My point about the sideshow is that if you listened to the media about guys like Vick, you would think he is one of the best QBs ever. He has one game with 3 throwing TDs, and has never won a big game. There is so much hype with him it is unbelievable. Honestly he isn't that much more athletic than Mike McMahon...who has proven really to be no better or worse than McNabb this year...


Yep, Manning may have the single season touchdown record, but he's no Tom Brady.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:41:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 2:52:48 PM EDT by FredM]

Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:

Originally Posted By FredM:

My point is that rings are not a judge of the individual in a team sport.

You said black QBs are a sideshow. This is flat wrong. Sideshows do not get MVP trophies.

Say what you want about Vick's numbers. But he is a winner. Atlanta with him is better than without him and their backup has better throwing numbers.



What has Vick won?

Case in point...Manning. He has to get to the Super Bowl, and win it, to get this monkey off his back. He has proven, so far, he can't win the big game in the playoffs. And he is regarded as a much better QB than either McNabb or Vick. Right now, he can't compare himself to Brady, regardless of his TD stats last year. Those TDs during the season didn't mean shit because he couldn't win the big game. Football is all about the big game...

My point about the sideshow is that if you listened to the media about guys like Vick, you would think he is one of the best QBs ever. He has one game with 3 throwing TDs, and has never won a big game. There is so much hype with him it is unbelievable. Honestly he isn't that much more athletic than Mike McMahon...who has proven really to be no better or worse than McNabb this year...




Why didn't you say:

"Hey, Vick sure is overrated." I mean to lump all black QBs in one group as sideshows is wrong. McNair is great. Moon was great, and I live in Houston and can tell you he had nothing
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:41:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jthuang:

Again, it's not all McNabb's fault the Eagles lost the Super Bowl. Andy Reid shares a significant portion, if not the majority, of the blame.



Maybe Reid believes McNabb can't handle all of the hurry up. We know a winner like Tom Brady can win a Super Bowl on a 2 minute drive, same as Montana. McNair and McNabb couldn't. BTW...does anyone thing that game last year would have been close had TO not played? TO is an asshole, but he is a great player.

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:45:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:
I hate Rush.


I hated the fact he was on talking about football.

But basically he said what everone else was to scared to say. Especcially that year which was 2003. McNabb sucked that year. i mean really sucked. It was a valid OPINION that Rush had but you cannot use numbers and stats from one year to judge a player. See McNabb was great the next year. And he was though of highly when coming into the league.




Rush wasn't really criticizing McNabb so much as the sportsnews types. Over half of what Rush does is pointing out the biases and mentality of the media, and he was simply doing that in the context of sports coverage because apparently the same sort of PC mentality that rules the mainstream media roost is also present in their sports divisions. I guess people aren't used to sports coverage being criticized in that way and didn't know what to make of it and just assumed Rush was picking on the black QB because he's a typical Repukelican racist who can't stand to see a black dude in a traditionally white-dominated position.

Of course, Rush wasn't saying that at all, just that the media was giving McNabb undue positive attention despite his mediocrity simply because he was a black guy in a traditionally white-dominated position. Rush saw they were pushing a desired narrative at the expense of objectivity, just as they do in so many other ways.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:15:08 PM EDT

Warren Moon couldnt get a job in the NFL until after he played for the Toronto Argonauts.

Warren Moon played for Edmonton in the CFL. Won a bunch of championships with them.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:20:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Slotback:
Warren Moon couldnt get a job in the NFL until after he played for the Toronto Argonauts.

Warren Moon played for Edmonton in the CFL. Won a bunch of championships with them.



Doug Flutie did too...Wouldn't call him a great NFL QB...
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:22:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 4:25:36 PM EDT by jthuang]

Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:
Maybe Reid believes McNabb can't handle all of the hurry up. We know a winner like Tom Brady can win a Super Bowl on a 2 minute drive, same as Montana. McNair and McNabb couldn't. BTW...does anyone thing that game last year would have been close had TO not played? TO is an asshole, but he is a great player.




No doubt, TO played well in the SB. It takes something special to get 120+ yards after a short rehab/recovery period from a broken bone in your leg. He's no team player, for sure -- but the man performs on the field.

I don't think Reid has any confidence issues with McNabb at all. They've been together since McNabb was drafted out of Syracuse. If he had confidence issues with McNabb, they would have been solved by now ... or, seeing as Reid is also the general manager, McNabb would be gone. Again, Reid bears a lot of responsibility because not only is he the head coach, he is the general manager. All personnel decisions start and end with Reid!

To anyone who knows anything about the Eagles, the lack of a two minute offense is squarely on Andy Reid, and all the racial BS that is being bandied about is a smokescreen. You will note that most of the so-called experts trumpeting the race card are squarely ignoring how plays are called by the Eagles' organization. That's because they're clueless and they are suffering from diarrhea of the mouth, running off on a subject that they know nothing about, looking for an agenda to slam black QBs, or otherwise entangling race into an issue that has nothing to do with it.

NOBODY, not Peyton Manning, not Dan Marino, not Joe Montana, not Sonny Jurgenson, can run a two-minute drill when your @#@#%#@ head coach puts you through FOUR LAYERS of bureaucratic morass before you, as QB, are able to call or change the play. NOBODY. It's not because McNabb is black, white, purple or green ... it's that he doesn't have the opportunity to implement an effective hurry-up offense, due to the head coach.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:59:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By FredM:
So according to you since McNair only played in a superbowl but didn;t win he is a sideshow? To bad I guess when he goes home and polishes his MVP trophy he can be rest assured he is a sideshow.

I guess Marino is a sideshow to right? Not possibly one of the best ever. i mean since all that matters is superbowls he is sans ring. I wonder why he was a 1st ballot hall of famer. Those people must not know near as much as you.


The best ever win in the big games. McNair, Marino, McNabb all have had opprotunities, but have not pulled the trigger. It's a shame, they all have considerable talent, but I won't place them in the same league as Montana, Young, Aikman, et al.



I don't agree with that 100%. I think at the top level of the NFL the "system" is more important that the QB. To win the superbowl you have to have the right personnel and the right offensive and defensive philosophy. Also, both the offense and defense have to hit their stride in the same season. It is also crucial that your team stays healthy and you don't lose any of your big names to injury. While I'm no fan of Marino I think he was one of the best. Elway was always an amazing leader and athlete too but he couldn't get it done until he had a weapon like Terrell Davis and a solid Defense. No body can do it alone no matter how good they are.

With that said I'm not a fan of the "running" QB, black or white. I think that a QB's job is to through the ball and be able to move enough to escape the rush when the protection breaks down. Most running QB's are to earger to start running with the ball. Usually when they do that they are just improvising and it's really more of a busted play. I say it's systems that win big games. System, execution and a little luck. I don't the race is really an issue in the Super Bowl.

Just my 2 cents and I could be wrong

-Jason M



Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:11:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:13:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jthuang:

Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:
Maybe Reid believes McNabb can't handle all of the hurry up. We know a winner like Tom Brady can win a Super Bowl on a 2 minute drive, same as Montana. McNair and McNabb couldn't. BTW...does anyone thing that game last year would have been close had TO not played? TO is an asshole, but he is a great player.




No doubt, TO played well in the SB. It takes something special to get 120+ yards after a short rehab/recovery period from a broken bone in your leg. He's no team player, for sure -- but the man performs on the field.

I don't think Reid has any confidence issues with McNabb at all. They've been together since McNabb was drafted out of Syracuse. If he had confidence issues with McNabb, they would have been solved by now ... or, seeing as Reid is also the general manager, McNabb would be gone. Again, Reid bears a lot of responsibility because not only is he the head coach, he is the general manager. All personnel decisions start and end with Reid!

To anyone who knows anything about the Eagles, the lack of a two minute offense is squarely on Andy Reid, and all the racial BS that is being bandied about is a smokescreen. You will note that most of the so-called experts trumpeting the race card are squarely ignoring how plays are called by the Eagles' organization. That's because they're clueless and they are suffering from diarrhea of the mouth, running off on a subject that they know nothing about, looking for an agenda to slam black QBs, or otherwise entangling race into an issue that has nothing to do with it.

NOBODY, not Peyton Manning, not Dan Marino, not Joe Montana, not Sonny Jurgenson, can run a two-minute drill when your @#@#%#@ head coach puts you through FOUR LAYERS of bureaucratic morass before you, as QB, are able to call or change the play. NOBODY. It's not because McNabb is black, white, purple or green ... it's that he doesn't have the opportunity to implement an effective hurry-up offense, due to the head coach.



So, you believe McNabb was able to overcome his inept coach to make it to the NFL championship game all those years in a row? If Reid is so inept, McNabb "must" be one of the best QBs ever to make it all those years to big games...and lose...

...In order to rely on a hurry up offense to win a game, that means you WERE BEHIND at the end of the game. Are you putting the other 58 mins. on Reid, or did those go with McNabb?
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:30:02 PM EDT
Rush wasn't exactly right about Mcnabb though.

He may have been right about the media side of it, but McNabb IS a good QB. I mean, the eagle have no running game, he only had a top level WR for a little over one year, and he still put up pretty damn good numbers most of the time.

He isn't the best by far, but what he does with the personell they have on offense is pretty impressive.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:37:26 PM EDT
Let us all remember that being a running QB has nothing to do with being successful in the NFL. There are many QBs who were/are pocket passers who were Superbowl champs, and there have been "scrambling" QBs who have won the Superbowl.

When it all gets boiled down to the nitty-gritty, it takes three things to win a Superbowl:

1. Strong running game
2. Strong defense
3. A quarterback who doesn't make mistakes at crucial times

Steve Young was a "running" quarterback and is considered to be among the best of all time, but without that Superbowl championship. he probably would not be as highly regarded. Troy Aikman was THE prototypical pocket passer and he won three Superbowls. Neither Young nor Aikman hurt their respective teams at crunch time with mistakes. Of the two, I'd take Steve Young over Aikman nine times out of ten because I always liked his leadership style and the fact that he seemed to have an iron will. The fact that he could run the ball almost as efficiently as any NFL running back didn't hurt.

McNabb is better than your average NFL starting quarterback, but not by large margin. He is not a star, no matter how much the NFL universe tries to make him one. Rush was completely right on this matter. It's the media and the NFL who are trying to make McNabb into something he isn't. The same goes for Michael Vick. Is he exciting to watch? Absolutely. Being exciting to watch does NOT equal being "great."

BTW, IMO the best black quarterback I've ever seen was Warren Moon. He was Troy Aikman without all the Superbowl wins. Very, very good QB.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:37:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 5:39:22 PM EDT by ar15bubba]

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:
Black QBs are still a touchy subject. It seems that average Black QBs will be elevated by the sports writers, because they want to see them do well. Besides Doug Williams (and the best quarter of football in his life, and about any other play for that matter) Black QBs have been more of a "sideshow"...



Warren Moon is not a sideshow man. Nor Vince Young, Mike Vick, MVP Steve Mcnair, etc.



Don't put Vince Young in with those other guys. Young will never play a down of NFL football as a QB. He can throw sometimes, but he throws up a lot of lame ducks. He has a penchant for winning and running, but his only hope is to be changed to a WR.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:32:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:

So, you believe McNabb was able to overcome his inept coach to make it to the NFL championship game all those years in a row? If Reid is so inept, McNabb "must" be one of the best QBs ever to make it all those years to big games...and lose...



Yes, he was. Andy Reid's playcalling has been suspect all these years in Philadelphia, and we Eagles fans have had to endure it for the last seven years.

McNabb is a great QB. The stats don't lie. And he's managed to be great, DESPITE suspect playcalling and other personnel decisions by Andy Reid. Eagles fans know this, because we live it.

I'll get to playcalling in a minute, but we Eagles fans know very well how for the last seven years Reid has made poor personnel decisions. Yes, he is also the GM, not just the coach.

How often did we hear "we can win the big one with the wide receivers we have" come pouring out of Andy's mouth? Charles Johnson? Torrance Small? James Thrash? Todd Pinkston? THESE are Super Bowl caliber WRs? Those stiffs could not catch SARS in Hong Kong. Yet Big Red kept telling us that his personnel decisions are good, we don't need an elite receiver to win the Super Bowl ... and he was proven wrong in 2004-5 when he finally figured out he was wrong and traded for Terrel Owens.

And how much have Eagles suffered because of the lack of a running game? Again, thanks to Andy Reid as playcaller AND general manager. What did Woody Hayes say? You use the ground game to set up opportunities in the air ... but that's lost on Andy Reid.

McNabb -- yes, he is a great QB. Just because he didn't win the big game doesn't make him a bad QB (will address that more below).


Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:
...In order to rely on a hurry up offense to win a game, that means you WERE BEHIND at the end of the game. Are you putting the other 58 mins. on Reid, or did those go with McNabb?



Yes. It goes on Reid. His fault for not implementing (or putting the team in a position to run) the hurry up offense in the SUPER BOWL, the most significant game of the year for the Eagles.

Of course, in order to rely on a hurry-up, you have to be BEHIND. If you followed the Eagles last year, you would know that they didn't have a lot of opportunities to use the hurry-up because with McNabb throwing bombs to TO every game, the Birds were blowing people out. So there weren't a lot of opportunities to use the hurry-up to begin with ....

However, in the Super Bowl ... a game that has some importance (yes??), they had to rely on the hurry-up. They didn't even try to implement the hurry-up, and it cost them the game. Who's responsible? Look at the guy making the calls (i.e. Reid).

Now, part of it may be because McNabb was injured. No one knows whether he was injured or not. TO says he was. McNabb says he wasn't. Reid says he wasn't. Freddie Mitchell says he was. Who do you believe? It's up for debate at best. No one truly knows the answer.

What is NOT at debate is the poor playcalling by Andy Reid which resulted in the Eagles NOT running a hurry-up offense. Read Bill Bellicheck's (sp?) book and you'll see he observed the same thing. The Patriots coach wondered "what the hell were the Eagles doing" (his words, not mine!) ... they should have been in hurry-up mode, yet they were not. The team was trotting leisurely back to the huddle like they had all the time in the world.

It comes back to the guy calling the plays -- Andy Reid. He's the coach. If he wants to run a hurry-up, he makes the call and the players execute. If McNabb is physically unable to run a hurry up, it is Reid's discretion to pull DMac for a few plays and throw Andy Hall or Koy Detmer in there to run it. Again, Andy Reid does not permit McNabb to call the plays. It's starts and ends with Reid!

I say again. The race issue is a smokescreen behind the real reason why the Eagles didn't win the Superbowl, or why McNabb is a good/bad QB. And when I say smokescreen, both sides of the race card are using it -- and both are wrong.

The race apologists (e.g. statements made by the Philly head of NAACP) are guilty of associating the running QB with the black QB. This is wrong on several levels. First, there are stellar QBs who aren't black and who are very mobile. Steve Young is a great example. Doug Flutie is another, and I'm sure I'm missing a lot more.

Second, there are/were good black QBs that didn't rely on "run first, throw second" -- Steve McNair is a perfect example. And some of the black QBs in the past who SEEMED to run first and throw second often had to do so out of necessity. Again, Eagles fans will remember Randall Cunningham, who was saddled with a HORRIBLE o-line. Antone Davis ring a bell? The guy was their #1 draft pick ... and HE DIDN'T LIKE TO PLAY FOOTBALL! How the @#$@# are you supposed to stay in te pocket and throw when the opposing defensive linemen are in your face after a two step drop???

Frankly, the NAACP should stay the hell out of football altogether. It's clearly not their strong point. Today the head office of the NAACP refuted the statements made by the Philly chapter NAACP head (the guy quoted in the article). Good for them.

The 88-types will use the lack of a Super Bowl win by McNabb to say that black QBs are no good. Leaving aside the mountain of superior stats that McNabb has compiled over the years, you can see this is total bunk. Under that logic, Dan Marino is not a great QB because he never won the big one. Jim Kelly too -- hell, he got to the Super Bowl four times but he's not a great QB because he never won the big one.

Great stats CAN make a great QB, without winning the big game. Elway would have made the HoF even without those two Super Bowls. Same can be said of Peyton Manning ... if he never wins a SB, he'll get into the HoF on his single-year TD record and more. Hell, the Colts might go 16-0 this year ... that's alone is enough to get Peyton into the HoF.

Turning the 88 argument on its head, would they argue that Trent Dilfer (Baltimore Ravens, 2000) is a great QB because he won a Super Bowl? How about Brad Johnson (Tampa Bay Bucs, 2001?)? Neither of those guys are great QBs, but they won a Super Bowl. Pah.

Again, the race is issue is a smokescreen. The true issue with the Eagles is not McNabb. Mostly, it's with the guy who makes the personnel decisions (Reid), the guy who insists four people sign off on each offensive playcall (Reid), the guy who prevents McNabb from running (Reid) and the guy who can't make decent calls in pressure situations (Reid). Despite how much the 88'ers and the NAACP would love to make it a race issue (because it furthers their agenda), it's not.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:47:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jthuang:
The 88-types will use the lack of a Super Bowl win by McNabb to say that black QBs are no good. Leaving aside the mountain of superior stats that McNabb has compiled over the years, you can see this is total bunk. Under that logic, Dan Marino is not a great QB because he never won the big one. Jim Kelly too -- hell, he got to the Super Bowl four times but he's not a great QB because he never won the big one.


Jim Kelly and Dan Marino aren't great QBs in my book.



Great stats CAN make a great QB, without winning the big game. Elway would have made the HoF even without those two Super Bowls. Same can be said of Peyton Manning ... if he never wins a SB, he'll get into the HoF on his single-year TD record and more. Hell, the Colts might go 16-0 this year ... that's alone is enough to get Peyton into the HoF.


HoF be damned. You play to win the game. Football has always been about winning rings. That is what matters. Stats have only become popular thanks to fantasy league geeks.


Turning the 88 argument on its head, would they argue that Trent Dilfer (Baltimore Ravens, 2000) is a great QB because he won a Super Bowl? How about Brad Johnson (Tampa Bay Bucs, 2001?)? Neither of those guys are great QBs, but they won a Super Bowl. Pah.


They did what they needed to do to win. You can say they aren't great, but you can't say they are not winner, and in the final analysis that is all that matters.


Again, the race is issue is a smokescreen.


Yes it is a smokescreen. One you created to mask the fact DM is not a winner.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 10:11:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By dport:
It's football not baseball.

Elway lost a Superbowl, but the great ones get back and win.



So

Most Completions, Career: 4,967
Most Yards Passing, Career: 61,361
Most Touchdown Passes, Career: 420
Highest Pass Rating, Rookie Season: 96.0 in 1983
Highest Completion Percentage, Rookie Season: 58.45 in 1983 (296-173)
Most Yards Gained, Season: 5,084 in 1984
Most Games, 400 or more Yards Passing, Career: 13
Most Games, 400 or more Yards Passing, Season: 4 in 1984
Most Games, 300 or more Yards Passing, Career: 60
Most Seasons, 3,000 or more Yards Passing: 13 (1984-92, 1994-95, 1997-98)
Most Games, Four or more Touchdown Passes, Career: 21
100 TD Passes in Fewest Amount of Games to Start Career: 44 (9/7/86 at S.D.)
200 TD passes in Fewest Amount of Games to Start Career: 89 ( 9/17/89 at N.E.)
300 TD passes in Fewest Amount of Games to Start Career: 157 ( 9/4/94 vs. N.E.)

Does not qualify as a great one?


He was very good, but not great.



i must have misunderstood something here. are you trying to say that JOHN ELWAY was not a great QB?
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 10:15:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DeltaAir423:
Sorry, Mike Vick is not a premier QB, he's just the only guy on the Falcons that is doing anything in the pocket. If you look at his stats, he would make a much better running back or wide reciever. I'm not a fan of the Falcons at all (Steelers fan here), but the Falcons need to draft another QB.
!



Mike Vick remindes me of Cordell Stewart. Amazing athlete, lousy quarterback.

I'm an Eagles fan and I had high hopes for McNabb. Some of you are right in that the big games are all that matter. At this point I don't see him getting it done. McNabb won't ever be listed with the greats.

FB
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 10:54:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sirensong:

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By dport:
It's football not baseball.

Elway lost a Superbowl, but the great ones get back and win.



So

Most Completions, Career: 4,967
Most Yards Passing, Career: 61,361
Most Touchdown Passes, Career: 420
Highest Pass Rating, Rookie Season: 96.0 in 1983
Highest Completion Percentage, Rookie Season: 58.45 in 1983 (296-173)
Most Yards Gained, Season: 5,084 in 1984
Most Games, 400 or more Yards Passing, Career: 13
Most Games, 400 or more Yards Passing, Season: 4 in 1984
Most Games, 300 or more Yards Passing, Career: 60
Most Seasons, 3,000 or more Yards Passing: 13 (1984-92, 1994-95, 1997-98)
Most Games, Four or more Touchdown Passes, Career: 21
100 TD Passes in Fewest Amount of Games to Start Career: 44 (9/7/86 at S.D.)
200 TD passes in Fewest Amount of Games to Start Career: 89 ( 9/17/89 at N.E.)
300 TD passes in Fewest Amount of Games to Start Career: 157 ( 9/4/94 vs. N.E.)

Does not qualify as a great one?


He was very good, but not great.



i must have misunderstood something here. are you trying to say that JOHN ELWAY was not a great QB?


No I said he rebounded from a SB loss and won in the big game and that made him great.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 12:02:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sirensong:

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By dport:
It's football not baseball.

Elway lost a Superbowl, but the great ones get back and win.



So

Most Completions, Career: 4,967
Most Yards Passing, Career: 61,361
Most Touchdown Passes, Career: 420
Highest Pass Rating, Rookie Season: 96.0 in 1983
Highest Completion Percentage, Rookie Season: 58.45 in 1983 (296-173)
Most Yards Gained, Season: 5,084 in 1984
Most Games, 400 or more Yards Passing, Career: 13
Most Games, 400 or more Yards Passing, Season: 4 in 1984
Most Games, 300 or more Yards Passing, Career: 60
Most Seasons, 3,000 or more Yards Passing: 13 (1984-92, 1994-95, 1997-98)
Most Games, Four or more Touchdown Passes, Career: 21
100 TD Passes in Fewest Amount of Games to Start Career: 44 (9/7/86 at S.D.)
200 TD passes in Fewest Amount of Games to Start Career: 89 ( 9/17/89 at N.E.)
300 TD passes in Fewest Amount of Games to Start Career: 157 ( 9/4/94 vs. N.E.)

Does not qualify as a great one?


He was very good, but not great.



i must have misunderstood something here. are you trying to say that JOHN ELWAY was not a great QB?



Those aren't Elway's stats, those are Marino's.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 12:38:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 1:33:52 PM EDT by keystone170]
deleted
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 1:07:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 1:08:03 PM EDT by Wobblin-Goblin]

Originally Posted By keystone170:
The only reason Williams played in the Super Bowl was that Joe Theisman broke his leg late in the season, and Washington was so good that even he couldn't lose enough games not to get into the big game.


Theismann broke his leg in 1985.

Doug Williams won the Superbowl in 1988.

Link Posted: 12/16/2005 1:12:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 1:15:29 PM EDT by keystone170]

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By keystone170:
The only reason Williams played in the Super Bowl was that Joe Theisman broke his leg late in the season, and Washington was so good that even he couldn't lose enough games not to get into the big game.


Theismann broke his leg in 1985.

Doug Williams won the Superbowl in 1988.


correction noted
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 1:41:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jthuang:
McNabb -- yes, he is a great QB. Just because he didn't win the big game doesn't make him a bad QB (will address that more below).

I say again. The race issue is a smokescreen behind the real reason why the Eagles didn't win the Superbowl, or why McNabb is a good/bad QB. And when I say smokescreen, both sides of the race card are using it -- and both are wrong.

The 88-types will use the lack of a Super Bowl win by McNabb to say that black QBs are no good. Leaving aside the mountain of superior stats that McNabb has compiled over the years, you can see this is total bunk. Under that logic, Dan Marino is not a great QB because he never won the big one. Jim Kelly too -- hell, he got to the Super Bowl four times but he's not a great QB because he never won the big one.

Great stats CAN make a great QB, without winning the big game. Elway would have made the HoF even without those two Super Bowls. Same can be said of Peyton Manning ... if he never wins a SB, he'll get into the HoF on his single-year TD record and more. Hell, the Colts might go 16-0 this year ... that's alone is enough to get Peyton into the HoF.


1. McNabb is NOT a "great" QB. He is better than average, but that's the extent of it. The mark of a "great" quarterback is the ability to make your whole team better (well, the offense anyway). McNabb has not and does not fit this category. Part of what made John Elay a "great" QB was that he, too, was laden with painfully average teams. Despite this, he helped his team perform above expectations year in and year out. Denver made five Superbowl appearances while Elway quarterbacked the team. They lost the first three. Those three losses (along with numerous deep runs into the playoffs during the '80s and '90s) happened because Elway finally met a foe that was too good for even his heroics. Make no mistake about it, if any other QB led Denver during those years, they NEVER would have made the Superbowl at all, let alone three times. Donovan McNabb is not in the same league as a John Elway. Elway was a "great" QB, McNabb surely is not. Remember the three rules for winning Superbowls:

a. Have a strong running game
b. Have a strong defense
c. Have a quarterback that doesn't make mistakes at crucial times

Clearly, McNabb has not, and did not fit the one category that directly addresses his position.

2. The fact that McNabb is black has NOTHING to do with his being either an average QB or a superstar (he is neither, btw). He's a pretty good QB who happens to be black. I think Warren Moon was substantially better at playing quarterback than McNabb. Warren Moon was not a "great" QB, however, and McNabb is far less accomplished than Moon. Moon was also strapped with painfully average teams yet he helped them perform better than they had a right to. Again, the same cannot be said about McNabb. His teams always, always, perform about where they ought to, and they always lose to teams that are better. "Great" QBs raise their team's performance at the right times so many times they beat teams they have no reason to.

3. No, mountains of stats DO NOT make a player "great." Peyton Manning, if he were to get hurt in game one of this year's playoffs (with his team riding a 16-0 season), WOULD NOT make the Hall of Fame. Nope. It simply would not happen. Why? Not only has he not won any big game, any championship, he has consisently lost games that the Colts *could* have won. You see, he NEVER helped his team win a big game against an equal or better foe. In fact, the Colts over the years have lost numerous games to inferior Patriots teams, Patriots teams that went on to win the Superbowl. Not coincidentally, the Patriots have been quarterbacked by Tom Brady, a guy who, RIGHT NOW, has a better chance of getting into the Hall of Fame than Manning (or McNabb). Why? Because not only does he put up decent stats, but he raises the level of play from his entire team. He doesn't make mistakes when all the chips are on the table. He helps to win games the Pats SHOULD win, and he helps win games the Pats HAVE NO BUSINESS winning (Superbowl XXXVI for example).

Dan Marino is one of the few QBs who can be considered "great" even though he never won a Superbowl Championship. Part of this is because his teams were SO bad (no running game and no defense) and yet there was Danny Marino passing his team into the playoffs year after year after year. No top-flight QB ever had less to work with than him and yet he still willed his team to win games they had no business winning.

So, no, Donovan McNabb is NOT a "great" QB. He is not a superstar. He is neither of these because he has never accomplished anything more than his team was able to.
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