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Posted: 12/14/2005 11:53:56 PM EDT
Okay, some people here seem to believe that as long as you aren't involved in any terrorist activity you shouldn't worry about any increased powers given to federal agencies, afterall they're only investigating people involved in terrorist activities, right? Well, what if I'm a big time activist and trying to fight for my civil rights, couldn't I be conveniently labeled a "terrorist" if my activism was being effective?

How can anyone DEFEND the patriot act? What am I missing?

Gun Owners of America
8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102
Springfield, VA 22151
(703)321-8585
Tuesday, December 6, 2005

House and Senate negotiators are reportedly close to hammering out differences on legislation that could greatly impact gun owners.

You will remember that before the Thanksgiving break, legislators were trying to ram PATRIOT Act revisions through the Congress and onto the Presidents desk.

Some of these revisions would improve the PATRIOT Act... some would not.

Of greatest concern to gun owners is a provision in H.R. 3199 that would allow the FBI to obtain "firearms sales records."

The bill extends Section 215 of the PATRIOT Act and allows agents of the federal government to get "firearms sales records" which, in their opinion, are relevant to investigating terrorism.

These records would be obtained from gun dealers, who are required by law to keep the gun purchase records (4473 forms). Thus, an anti-gun administration could then easily compile gun owner registration lists -- an enterprise which has often been a prelude to gun confiscation.

Of course, more than just your gun purchase records are at stake. Financial and medical records, library records and much more are also open to FBI fishing expeditions. They don't have to get any prior approval from any court.
This has led to concerns that the FBI is already infringing upon the rights of law-abiding Americans.

Consider that the FBI -- because of a Freedom of Information Act request -- recently revealed that the amount of information that the agency has gleaned on private citizens has exploded since the passage of the original PATRIOT Act in 2001.

The FBI has issued about 30,000 "national security letters" (NSLs) per year since the Act passed -- NSLs referring to a kind of administrative subpoena power where the FBI can get private records on individuals without a court order. Such power has led to tremendous violations already. According to The Washington Post, there have been several violations that are "serious enough that the FBI itself determined they must be reported to an executive branch agency called the Intelligence Oversight Board."

Clearly, there is a thirst in Washington for obtaining records on private individuals. And that is why we do NOT want the FBI soliciting information on gun owners from 4473 forms. The stakes are high in regard to passage of H.R. 3199.

The House-Senate agreement on the bill seemed to be a done deal last month, until outside groups (including GOA) and Republican Senators (like Larry Craig of Idaho) issued statements of opposition to the latest version of the bill.

The several dozen organizations that have expressed concern over the bill span the political spectrum, and include groups such as the American Conservative Union, Gun Owners of America and Patriots to Restore Checks and Balances (which is headed by former Rep. Bob Barr).

In all, there are six Senators who have threatened to lead a filibuster on the bill. Three are Democrats; three are Republicans.

Right now, this is an issue that is of utmost priority in the Congress. "The Patriot Act is something that we are spending a lot of time on right now," said Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist last week. "Our objective is to complete that... as soon as possible."

This bill is clearly on the fast track. It is rumored on Capitol Hill that negotiators are nearing a deal on H.R. 3199. You can greatly help by making them aware that gun owners are closely watching what they do on the subject of "firearms sales records."

ACTION: Please ask your Representative and Senators to ensure that the words "firearms sales records" are deleted from the warrantless records provisions of H.R. 3199.

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 12:44:56 AM EDT
Good post urbankaos04!

+1 on hearing from some of the defandants of the Patriot act I & II. This subject definately needs to be discussed.

For those who dont know, the PA I & II is the first step to the total annhiliation of our civil liberties, and a massive step towards a nation similar to that of Nazi Germany or Stalin-esq Russia.

Think about it, the report that came out the other day stated that there are some 80,000 US citizens on the gubbments "terror watch list". Do you really believe that there are that many middle easterners in the US today? Hell no, its people like us, that own guns and have military or paramilitary training, that they are watching. People who visit questionable web sites, people who buy 'X' ammounts of fertilizers, ammo, pyrodex/black powder ect. Every day people, folks. Some just have odd hobbies.

There was a discussion in the GD forum the other day about Thermite and a link to a website called unitednuclear.com was provided. Ok, these people at unitednuclear.com are selling high order explosives, or at least the components to complete violent reduction/oxidation reactions. I can almost gaurentee that that thread threw up great big red flag, and Im betting my bottom dollar a couple of names were added to that watch list. Why? Because some people have a fetish to blow up tree stumps, or like to burn up old cars, or what ever. No because we all have (meaning anyone and everyone) been essentially decalred enemies of the state. At least that is what the PA I & II imply. Oh, and if anyone here is even loosely affiliated with a militia, you are on the PA watch list, gaurenteed. Which is completely ignorant because it is constitutionally mandated that all men of 'X' age and health WILL be part of their local milita. So are we beginning to see the big picture?

Oh and dont worry about that thermite thing sky-lining the site BTW, Im about 99% sure that the feds have been watching this site very closely since the 9/11 debacle. Id also bet that 99% of the people registered to this board are on that watch list. I just used the thermite thing as an illustration.

If anyone would like consice info on the Patriot Act abominations, IM me and Ill send ya some links, or email me at golem696@hotmail.com
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:35:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 5:36:36 AM EDT by ATNT]
I have been following both Patriot Acts.

Here is the text for Patriot Act and here is the text for Patriot act 2 (may not be the actual thing, but I think that it is)
I would like people to read them and write to their congresscritters what they think of it.

Notice that I don't say that that I want people to support or oppose it, that it is for the people who read it to decide.


Edited for spelling.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 6:30:35 AM EDT
Bumpty bump.

Isn't anyone interested
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 6:34:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DavidHayter:
Good post urbankaos04!

+1 on hearing from some of the defandants of the Patriot act I & II. This subject definately needs to be discussed.

For those who dont know, the PA I & II is the first step to the total annhiliation of our civil liberties, and a massive step towards a nation similar to that of Nazi Germany or Stalin-esq Russia.

Think about it, the report that came out the other day stated that there are some 80,000 US citizens on the gubbments "terror watch list". Do you really believe that there are that many middle easterners in the US today? Hell no, its people like us, that own guns and have military or paramilitary training, that they are watching. People who visit questionable web sites, people who buy 'X' ammounts of fertilizers, ammo, pyrodex/black powder ect. Every day people, folks. Some just have odd hobbies.

There was a discussion in the GD forum the other day about Thermite and a link to a website called unitednuclear.com was provided. Ok, these people at unitednuclear.com are selling high order explosives, or at least the components to complete violent reduction/oxidation reactions. I can almost gaurentee that that thread threw up great big red flag, and Im betting my bottom dollar a couple of names were added to that watch list. Why? Because some people have a fetish to blow up tree stumps, or like to burn up old cars, or what ever. No because we all have (meaning anyone and everyone) been essentially decalred enemies of the state. At least that is what the PA I & II imply. Oh, and if anyone here is even loosely affiliated with a militia, you are on the PA watch list, gaurenteed. Which is completely ignorant because it is constitutionally mandated that all men of 'X' age and health WILL be part of their local milita. So are we beginning to see the big picture?

Oh and dont worry about that thermite thing sky-lining the site BTW, Im about 99% sure that the feds have been watching this site very closely since the 9/11 debacle. Id also bet that 99% of the people registered to this board are on that watch list. I just used the thermite thing as an illustration.

If anyone would like consice info on the Patriot Act abominations, IM me and Ill send ya some links, or email me at golem696@hotmail.com



I'm sure there are quite a bit more than 80,000 middle easterners in this country. Probably more like over 1 million. And I'm certain more than just middle easterners are being "watched."
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 6:36:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ATNT:
Bumpty bump.

Isn't anyone interested



Yes... Made contact with House rep last week. He is a lib with no chance of converting to being reasonable. That's Portland....

Made contact with Senate reps earlier this week. We have one R and one D. The R tends to be a pussy and the D has common sense... Thanks for the bump. Hey folks. Get to know your reps in the senate and house. Google and email are your friend.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:54:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 10:31:07 AM EDT by cnatra]
I really like larry Craig, he seems to be one of the few good guys in Congress.

It continues to amaze me the indifference/ambivalence most people on this site have
about issues like the Patriot Act. People who will scream bloody murder over any 2nd
ammendment infingements hardly raise on eyebrow over the continued erosion of ALL our
civil liberties by the seemingly relentless expansion of government power.

Slowly chipping away at one thing in the name of the greater good, sets up the same
principle for restricting, controling &/or ultimately eliminating other rights.

I didn't think most rabid gun owners would be so sheeple-ish on an isssue like this.

It's very Orwellian what's been happening the last few years.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:58:13 AM EDT
No one cares .

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:00:39 AM EDT
What rights have you lost since the patriots acts inception?

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:06:41 AM EDT
Patriot Act needs to be killed but since that will not happen I vote everything on the bill should have sunset clause. I hope it dies.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:09:30 AM EDT
My rep voted against renewing the Patriot Act because it was not amended to protect people's civil liberties.

Imagine what Hillary Clinton would do with the Patriot Act.

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:13:33 AM EDT
When my wife's student loan payment came in, we were unable to cash the check because of the "Patriot Act". It required that we could not open a bank account with a check over $10,000. Also, we could not deposit a check over $5k into an account with more than one person holding it, and we couldn't depost ANY two-party check over $10k. So we ended up having to send the check back to the issuing bank, and receiving multiple smaller disbursements, costing us over $4,000 in tuition late charges and extra disbursment fees. In every step of the process, three different banks told us the "patriot" act was the reason. One even had a little sign up about it in the lobby.

Hardly as big an issue, but it is my understanding that before 9/11, you could purchase a Tracfone, give any address, and have it activated. Now you have to provide some identifiable information - credit card, bank account, etc. - to get it activated.

So yeah, USA PATRIOT has effected me.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:16:53 AM EDT
All it amounts to is the FURTHER erosion of our rights, and MORE intrusion by the Feds into business which is not theirs
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:25:46 AM EDT
patriot act is stupid and pointless but it will pass, why? because that's what they want. People don't seem to understand that this country is no longer run by the citizenry. It's basically contorted itself into the next Soviet Empire..... or as close as it can get to it without attracting to much negative feedback.


The only thing that's going to turn this country around is a war. if you're all good for that then great, if not...... well nothing much else I can say......


I resign myself to the fact that in my lifetime(possibly very soon in fact)...


1.) confiscation will happen
2.) the bill of rights will be completely eliminated(most of it has been eroded regardless. moreso than I think most people realize, even here on this forum. interpretation bullshit has done that for us.)
3.) a strong assembly-based(multi-person) dictatorship will be established

the thing is, we COULD turn this around in favor, but the problem is there's too many republicans in the senate and congress who simply don't care. They want the money, they want the prestige, they want the power and nothing more.

So to be honest, I'm really not going to fuss over this patriot act. I think the destruction of our rights is inevitable and to come within the next five to ten years.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:33:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 10:33:58 AM EDT by cnatra]

Originally Posted By Voldermortist:
patriot act is stupid and pointless but it will pass, why? because that's what they want. People don't seem to understand that this country is no longer run by the citizenry. It's basically contorted itself into the next Soviet Empire..... or as close as it can get to it without attracting to much negative feedback.



maybe the fact the Fed Govt is on the fast track to going broke will save us
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:35:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 5:48:15 PM EDT by cnatra]

Originally Posted By Voldermortist:

the thing is, we COULD turn this around in favor, but the problem is there's too many people in the senate and congress who simply don't care. They want the money, they want the prestige, they want the power and nothing more.



fixed it for ya, you could really just say too many people in D.C. that just want that
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:37:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 10:38:50 AM EDT by dread-pirate]
If you read some history you will see that the real abuses of power happen a few years after "insert law here" is passed. In regards to gun control genocide was usually not implemented for a few years. PA 1&2 are just setting the stage. Next will be national ID and SS checking to get a job... They are coming at us sideways not head on.

Basically I think that the gun control is a 'dead issue' so the socialists/facists/communists are just doing an end run. Gun control itself is too much of a hot button issue, so it will be the last of the Bill of Rights to go the way of the dodo.

I think you will see large scale censorship of the net before the gun grabs, to limit communication.

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:35:51 AM EDT
firearm confiscations will be done by state governments for the most part..... that and severe penalties will be set for "gun crimes" in order to remove people who might pose a problem.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:57:47 AM EDT
Questing anything done by our beloved Lords will brand you as a liberal.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:48:16 PM EDT
Another BTT.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:55:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 3:57:10 PM EDT by Gunner1X]
This isn't about your guns. Many individual rights were put aside for the collective benefit of
the country during both world wars. History 101.



EDIT for spelling
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:54:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sabretooth:
What rights have you lost since the patriots acts inception?



The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:55:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 10:47:54 PM EDT by cnatra]

Originally Posted By Sabretooth:
What rights have you lost since the patriots acts inception?



Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:57:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cnatra:

Originally Posted By Sabretooth:
What rights have you lost since the patriots acts inception?



The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.




GWB "Don't throw the constitution in my face, it's just a God-damned piece of paper!" GWB
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 8:51:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 8:56:53 AM EDT by Kacer]


Well, at least the Senate didn't pass the bitch. They failed to pass it (this time) <whew>... now if they can only hold FIRM....

ETA: I saw on one of the newshows (Fox? CNN? MSNBC??) that they had "infiltrated" a QUAKER's "anti-war" meeting with a whole DOZEN "terrorists" (Quakers)... BOY! I feel SOOOOOOOOO much safer knowing that they were keeping an eye on those DANGEROUS subversives! (They could have protested us to death! All white folk too... who'd have thunk it?? )

Not that I'm anti-Iraq war, I'm NOT (at all) but I have NOT problem 1 with a dozen "Friends" getting together to talk bad about the war either!
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:15:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:18:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 4:51:50 PM EDT
Wow. That's great to read!
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