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Posted: 12/14/2005 10:22:58 PM EDT
Unions are important, every benefit paid to a working man, every safety consideration, the end of child labor, the end of the 60 hour work week and pretty much anything good earned by a worker in this country was demanded and recieved by a union organization at some point in the last 125 years.

America is not a true capitalist system, if it was we would all be broke and dying at the age of 47 years, just like we did before the advent of powerful unions. Some form of governemnt regulation is required because a true capitalist system relies on exploitation and deception of workers, manipulation of the market place and various other practices that while beneficial to people like the Vanderbilts do nothing for average americans. If you look at America before 1910 you will see a select few families of super rich and millions of poor, the poor lived hand to mouth, died young, got poor educations and had almost no chance for a decent life. YOU would be one of the poor.

Organized labor stopped or slowed some of the worst safety practices in the world, ended "company towns" where workers were enslaved by chronic debt to their employers, insisted on minimum ages for workers so kids could go to school, demanded living wages for workers so families would not starve.

I have to agree that some unions have forgotten their roots and are becoming a detrement to their industry as they become more and more unreasonable when dealing with companies.

It is a simple fact, that nearly all companies currently in operating in America do not have the best interest of the working man at heart, they would poison and kill every employee they had to make a product cheaper. Only UNIONS, lawsuits and regulations stop them.

Take a look at oil companies, with no shortage other than a refusal to increase production, they are driving the price of oil and gas up 40% in the last two years. Because you need gas to work they will steal EVERY last cent you have for no reason other than corprate greed. Maybe a look at the cost of drugs, exploiting the fears of the elderly drug companies jack the price of drugs thru the roof, you need them to survive and they take whatever you have left from the oil company.

Without unions, you would have finished school at the sixth grade and went to work for 12 hours a day , six days a week until you were injured or killed or died at a horribly young age. If you lived until you could retire, you would get NOTHING, no pension, no social security and not even a thanks. You would go home at die, unless you saved enough to live for a few years. But if you had saved, your money would have been in a stock that had boomed and crashed every decade and was probably lost. OR, you money would have been in an unregulated bank, where a speculator lost it on a false land boom or in a false business. The prices were manipultaed by a capitalist for his benefit and you lost every penny you had and died a pauper.

Without unions every job would be a low rent white trash job, just like Wal-Mart. You would be sitting at home hoping one of your 7 kids lived to adulthood to carry on your family name. There would be no college in your future, colleges were reserved for the rich and your were a peasant.

Yeah, unions are bad. Ask a chinese guy who is working 12-16 hours a day for .10 cents an hour if he wants a union. He is being exploited, just like your great grandfather in this country in 1900.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:25:40 PM EDT
Name one good thing that Unions have done in the last 30 years.

I submit that they just raise wages, lower productivity, and generally throw a monkey-wrench into the operations of large segments of industry and commerce, such as the airline industry. If the unions wouldn't interfere, they would have downsized to more manageable and profitable companies.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:26:29 PM EDT
And like most pro-union guys, you probably think you have a "right" to form a union at any company, but don't think an employer has a right to say he doesn't want to work with any union.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:27:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MoparMike:
Name one good thing that Unions have done in the last 30 years.




'stupided' themselves towards extinction?
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:28:33 PM EDT
I think unions will lose their spunk if they strike in the NYC Metro areas.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:32:34 PM EDT
lonegunman, once upon a time, unions were useful in the U.S., and they did much to advance the standard of working conditions. now, they are like a bloated tumor on the ass of industrious workers and corporations alike. About the only purpose they serve nowadays that is useful is to help ensure worker safety.

Take your communism elsewhere.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:53:38 PM EDT
Wrong
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 12:16:40 AM EDT
There was a time when I swallowed that sort of propaganda but I can no longer agree. I've been on all three sides of the union/management/non-union issue.

It has been my first hand experience that unions have become a business in and of themselves with their own greedy self engrandizment as the purpose for their existance. The upper levels of unions are infested with SOCIALISTS who would gleefully turn this country over to the likes of Hillary.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 12:29:07 AM EDT
well I can tell you that I'm no fan of the afl-cio. They are self serving communist puppets, and you can take that to the bank.
But in the case of UAL, corporate greed and plain old stupidity brought that thing to the ground.
It had nothing to do with unions...unless you belive that the company did all this to break the unions for a larger piece of the pie, then you're probably right.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 12:36:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MoparMike:
Name one good thing that Unions have done in the last 30 years.



They kept, and continue to keep, wages up so that the worker isn't overrun by inflation. In some industries a unionized company is the only way wages can continue to rise.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 12:38:49 AM EDT
I am not even going to read any of the posts, unions did their job to get us a 40 hr. work week, OSHA, ect., ect., now they are just useless. They only protect the people that should be fired.
Icon
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 12:44:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 12:44:50 AM EDT by swingset]
What always amazes me about this board, hell I guess people in general nowadays, is how utterly one-sided everyone is.

Unions are teh satan.

Unions are necessary, it's big business that's evil.



Unions did this country an amazing service, making it literally what it is today. And, subsequently turned corrupt and are ruining much of what they built.

Likewise, industry was once an unhinged beast that chewed people up and gave them little in return. Due to the Unions and public outcries, that has largely been a forgotten black spot on American history.

So, what would be the absolute worst thing you could possibly do to the working/industry relationship? Kill the unions completely, or give them free reign.

What was always needed, and will always be needed, is balance. The Unions need to exist, but need limits. Business needs the freedom to thrive, but not the power to grist its workers and American families into a third-world lifestyle (and it was once that way).

I am neither pro or anti-union, nor am I pro or anti-business. I merely see that without one or the other, we'll be right back at Henry Ford's "worker's utopia", or in socialist France where work is a dirty word. Balance, what this country needs is balance, not extremes.

What is wrecking America is a divided house, all the way from industry/workers to political divisions. We're so polarized you can't talk about a single issue (even on this board) without sharp divides that bring out venom and hatred. Sad, watching people self-destruct.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 12:46:59 AM EDT

Unions are an important part of American labor,,,,,,,,,

What's the deal with the anti-capitalist people here using commas instead of periods in an ellipsis? Is it a habit they picked-up from their time on DUh?z
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 12:47:47 AM EDT
If you mean paying people 2 and 3 times what their skill is worth and driving the jobs to outsourcing. Then yes, unions are a good thing.

The steel industry is a good example. Factory workers in general are Waaaay over paid. If you want better pay, Get an education and learn a more technical skill.



1 out of 5
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 12:51:08 AM EDT
Wow, I didn't know that unions singlehandedly increased the life expectancy 30 years!

Is there anything these unions can't do?

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 1:03:04 AM EDT
Unions had their place... in the 50's.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 1:49:10 AM EDT
Goddamned socialists.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:08:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Pangea:
Goddamned socialists.




+1 Unions promote oneness. Do not work above your ablities. You are only as good as the
slowest, dumbest, laziest member. (contractually of course)
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:09:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By swingset:
What always amazes me about this board, hell I guess people in general nowadays, is how utterly one-sided everyone is.

Unions are teh satan.

Unions are necessary, it's big business that's evil.



Unions did this country an amazing service, making it literally what it is today. And, subsequently turned corrupt and are ruining much of what they built.

Likewise, industry was once an unhinged beast that chewed people up and gave them little in return. Due to the Unions and public outcries, that has largely been a forgotten black spot on American history.

So, what would be the absolute worst thing you could possibly do to the working/industry relationship? Kill the unions completely, or give them free reign.

What was always needed, and will always be needed, is balance. The Unions need to exist, but need limits. Business needs the freedom to thrive, but not the power to grist its workers and American families into a third-world lifestyle (and it was once that way).

I am neither pro or anti-union, nor am I pro or anti-business. I merely see that without one or the other, we'll be right back at Henry Ford's "worker's utopia", or in socialist France where work is a dirty word. Balance, what this country needs is balance, not extremes.

What is wrecking America is a divided house, all the way from industry/workers to political divisions. We're so polarized you can't talk about a single issue (even on this board) without sharp divides that bring out venom and hatred. Sad, watching people self-destruct.




Good points...Thats what wars are for.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:14:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FatCobra:
If you mean paying people 2 and 3 times what their skill is worth and driving the jobs to outsourcing. Then yes, unions are a good thing.

The steel industry is a good example. Factory workers in general are Waaaay over paid. If you want better pay, Get an education and learn a more technical skill.



1 out of 5



Last time I checked, Ironwrokers had the 7th highest death rate per 100,000 workers. I actually feel that I should be paid more for erecting structures where I'm in danger of dieing every minute I'm at work. Try sitting you ass on a piece of steel when it's 5 degrees out and the wind is blowing at 15mph.

I make more money than my friends that have their Masters degrees. I have a bachelors myself.

I'm no die hard Pro-Union though. I'm walking away from a $83/hr union job to get into business in Colorado
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:27:40 AM EDT
you mean I dont have to work 60 hours a week anymore???? WTF??? Noone told me....
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:39:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Colt636:
Originally Posted By MoparMike:
Name one good thing that Unions have done in the last 30 years.



They kept, and continue to keep, wages up so that the worker isn't overrun by inflation. In some industries a unionized company is the only way wages can continue to rise.



In the 1960's, you could have a job making $3.00 per hour and that money would go much farther in those days than today making $25.00 per hour. Look at how times have changed in the past 30 years. And what created such a remarkable change in such little time?

Some people seem to think that they are better off by simply earning a bigger paycheck. But had the price of shit not doubled and tripled, earning a bigger salary would no longer seem so important, because the money you do earn will go farther.

I'd much rather have a job making $5 per hour with the cost of living low than a job making $30 per hour with the cost of living through the damn roof like it is today. And what is responsible for such a rapid rise in cost of living? I'd take a guess that Unions played a rather large role. If you force a company to start paying larger salaries, then that automatically forces up the cost of products they produce. It has to happen that way to maintain the same profit in the wake of increased pay to the workers. That in turn drives up everything else. And it has made the price differences so great between our goods and those produced in China that most people just buy the much cheaper Chinese version of whatever product they want these days. In other words, our greedy nature has helped the Chinese by allowing them a greater chance to compete over here.

Unions at first did serve a good purpose. But like so many other things, it started going bad about 30-40 years ago and is now out on control. Their practices are now harming the people they are suppose to protect. They are driving our business overseas. And their demanding nature has at least played a significant role in driving up the cost of living. It's just simple math. The way I see it, the bad stuff caused by unions outweigh the good at this point in time.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:47:00 AM EDT

Take your communism elsewhere.


Guilds and trade associations have been around for several centuries, communism has been around for about 150 years. Organizations that protect and train workers and strive for a quality product, yeah those are things to fear. Sorry Mr. McCarthy no commies under this bush.


If you mean paying people 2 and 3 times what their skill is worth and driving the jobs to outsourcing. Then yes, unions are a good thing.

The steel industry is a good example. Factory workers in general are Waaaay over paid. If you want better pay, Get an education and learn a more technical skill.



It may be a difficult concept to grasp with the limited reasoning abilities of some folks, but no all unions are about manual labor. Millwrights, machinists, welders, carpenters, plumbers, electricians, stationary engineers, boilermakers, steelworkers, HVAC and mechanics are all considered skilled trades outside of the arfcom world and they all have unions. I have a BA and a couple of AAS degrees, all of my co-workers have some college or a year of trade school and a decade in the field.

With unions making up about 15% of labor, it seems something may be happening other than a guy on an assembly line making 4 dollars an hour too much. The money companies that glorify the virtues of capitalism save, companies like Wal-Mart. The rest of us pay in taxes to assist the impoverished low wage workers in supporting themselves. Do you really think that underpaid workers with no health benefits don't go to the doctor? Who do you think pays their heat, housing, school lunches? Every dollar in public assistance they cost is a dollar from someplace.

Either that or some industries simply pay so little nobody can afford to work there. These places hire illegal immigrants and fuel a problem that is huge in this country. Migrant labor coming from poor countries to work at low wage labor intensive jobs. If unions are bad then illegal immigrant labor should be considered good. It keeps costs low and profits high, right?
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:03:18 AM EDT
All wrong. The reason for the working conditions at the beginning of the industrial revolution was a glut of cheap labor due to lax immigration laws. All those Europeans streaming through Ellis Island led to a deflated value of labor and horrific conditions to those with no advanced education or skills. Pure capitalism. Fixing the problem with socialism ie unions was the worst solution. Stemming the immigration tide with votes would have been the best solution. The downtrodden workers still had the vote did they not? Anyway, unions, like their communist brothers will continue to dwindle in the next decade as they kill their host companies.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:11:29 AM EDT
The thing i dont get from all you "Economics 101 free marketeers" is OK, sure, MAYBE some of the things about Unions they say in the last 30 years is true, but suppose we do away with them? What to stop us sliding back to the way it was in 1880?? Is there ANY incentive whatsoever to treat workers right economically? You make it seem like every corporation is America has a bloated Union. I see Walmart, burger king, MC donalds ETC. without unions, Oh yeah they treat their workers REAL GOOD!
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:16:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By shootemup:
...snip...
I'm walking away from a $83/hr union job to get into business in Colorado



I need to join an union.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:50:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By t-stox:
The thing i dont get from all you "Economics 101 free marketeers" is OK, sure, MAYBE some of the things about Unions they say in the last 30 years is true, but suppose we do away with them? What to stop us sliding back to the way it was in 1880?? Is there ANY incentive whatsoever to treat workers right economically? You make it seem like every corporation is America has a bloated Union. I see Walmart, burger king, MC donalds ETC. without unions, Oh yeah they treat their workers REAL GOOD!



Well then lets give the people who work at McDonalds, Wal-Mart, Burger King a fair wage of $25 per hour! Hell we could even go up to $50 per hour. No Problem! Then my job will have to pay me at least $150 PER HOUR!

As far as the 1880's there are a multitude of labor laws and safety regulations now. You pro union guys need new banter. The union bosses are driving limo's as you watch your jobs go overseas.

You pro union people have got to realize how small the world is now. It blows my mind that steel can be produced overseas, shipped all the way around the world trucked throughout the US CHEAPER than can be produced here. EVER ASK YOURSELF WHY? Without blaming the low wages of overseas plants.

Examine the exent of lawsuits in this country and the cost of trying not to be sued for EVERYTHING.

The operators on my job make more money in 2 days than they made in a week at a union job.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:09:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By lonegunman:

It is a simple fact, that nearly all companies currently in operating in America do not have the best interest of the working man at heart, they would poison and kill every employee they had to make a product cheaper. Only UNIONS, Wal-mart, lawsuits and regulations stop them.





Fixed it for ya'!


Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:11:44 AM EDT
Unions are the collective dildoes of the Democrap Party.

Sorry, but that's the fact, Jack.

And the membership, no matter how hard it may try not to be, are getting a helluva 'workout' nowadays.

Eric The(FreeMarket)Hun
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:11:53 AM EDT
It's been years, but I remember from some college econ class that most paid benefits, in lieu of pay was a result of WWII. Business were capped by wage controls and with the small pool of workers they couldn't raise wages to attract more employees. So to attract employees they added benefits that weren't controlled by wage and price controls.


After the war, its hard to take back a benefit after it is giving.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:24:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 4:30:05 AM EDT by lonegunman]

I need to join an union.


Somebody always says that, but when it comes time to earn the big bucks they always lack the skills, balls or abilities to do the job. Eventually, somebody will realize not all jobs are unskilled manual labor. Finding a guy to work in 20 degree weather, 450 feet off the ground handing steel is harder than you might think. Finding a guy who can do it without dying is harder than that. Go offer than $7.50 an hour, no training, no benefits and see how far you get. Your free market capitalism will probably end up about the same place on the wage scale.


You pro union people have got to realize how small the world is now. It blows my mind that steel can be produced overseas, shipped all the way around the world trucked throughout the US CHEAPER than can be produced here. EVER ASK YOURSELF WHY? Without blaming the low wages of overseas plants.


I'll take a crack at that one. Steel can be made in China cheap as shit because of low wages, no environmental laws, no OSHA. Iron ore can be mined in mines that kill hundreds of miners a month(try watching the news sometime) by starved workers who need to feed their families so they work for 15 cents an hour. It can be shipped on rickety rail service using a coal fired locomotive to a plant that uses methods from the last century to produce steel or it can be shipped to a new modern plant which was built without a single pollution control. They have ample electricity because they simply refuse to supply it to people. All along they way workers are paid from 15 cents to about a dollar an hour. Many of them live in boarding houses and send as much money home as possible to support their families who have no jobs and farm to survive. They create a cloud of pollution that spans the Pacific ocean and can be monitored from our shores.

The shipping company buys a ship and operates it with philipino crewman who make 20% of what americans or europeans doing the same jobs make. It may have a Captain that speaks broken english. They forgo as much maintenance as possible over the life of the ship and run in into the ground in 15 years. The ship is flagged in a third world country under a front company so they pay little or no insurance or taxes. If it wrecks and spills a million gallons of oil or kills a dozen people, they simply abandon the crew and deny owning it.

Having no laws to comply with for worker safety, no environmental concerns, low wages and no pensions or health care because medical is socialized in China and government support can make it pretty damn cheap.


Unions are the collective dildoes of the Democrap Party.

Sorry, but that's the fact, Jack.

And the membership, no matter how hard it may try not to be, are getting a helluva 'workout' nowadays.



Oddly enough, being a union member does not restrict your right to vote. As strange as it seems to some people you get to vote for whatever pro-gun conservative candidate you want too. When you vote they do not report it to the union offices.

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:38:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By lonegunman:
...

Oddly enough, being a union member does not restrict your right to vote. As strange as it seems to some people you get to vote for whatever pro-gun conservative candidate you want too. When you vote they do not report it to the union offices.




But just think, some of you hard earned money went to the $75 million that unions donated to democratic candidates in 2004.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:50:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By lonegunman:
Some form of governemnt regulation is required because a true capitalist system relies on exploitation and deception of workers, manipulation of the market place and various other practices that while beneficial to people like the Vanderbilts do nothing for average americans




You lost me right there with your hysterical fear of markets.

Its funny how everyone loves the free market when it works in thier favor, and when it doesn't they say its controlled by evil men in the shadows pulling at strings.



YOU would be one of the poor.



Further, no one in my family has ever been in a union, they have all been self employed, the effects of unions have never been felt, and I'm not poor. They picked themselves up, worked hard, saved thier money, and made smart investments instead of getting in bed with communists.

Union workers on strike should all be fired.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:11:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By swingset:
What always amazes me about this board, hell I guess people in general nowadays, is how utterly one-sided everyone is.

Unions are teh satan.

Unions are necessary, it's big business that's evil.

hinking.gif

Unions did this country an amazing service, making it literally what it is today. And, subsequently turned corrupt and are ruining much of what they built.

Likewise, industry was once an unhinged beast that chewed people up and gave them little in return. Due to the Unions and public outcries, that has largely been a forgotten black spot on American history.

So, what would be the absolute worst thing you could possibly do to the working/industry relationship? Kill the unions completely, or give them free reign.

What was always needed, and will always be needed, is balance. The Unions need to exist, but need limits. Business needs the freedom to thrive, but not the power to grist its workers and American families into a third-world lifestyle (and it was once that way).

I am neither pro or anti-union, nor am I pro or anti-business. I merely see that without one or the other, we'll be right back at Henry Ford's "worker's utopia", or in socialist France where work is a dirty word. Balance, what this country needs is balance, not extremes.

What is wrecking America is a divided house, all the way from industry/workers to political divisions. We're so polarized you can't talk about a single issue (even on this board) without sharp divides that bring out venom and hatred. Sad, watching people self-destruct.




STOP! You can't bring balance and understanding into these arguments! his
I've stood on picket lines as the mill screwed my Dad and his coworkers to increase their profit margin.

I've also been a manager that had to choke on a mediation agreement because a manic depressive employee wasn't provided a 30 day notices that he actually had to do his F'ing job. I've also seen the union turn their back on my dad when he actually had a problem because it wasn't an issue they wanted to push. After all, he's only a white middle aged male. Who needs those in a work place.

Just as there are labor laws, I think our nation now needs employer rights. Currently, many unions are bloated and self serving. Or in the back pocket of the ACLU.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:21:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Colt636:
They kept, and continue to keep, wages up so that the worker isn't overrun by inflation.


Can someone please explain to him the irony of that statement?
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:26:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheCynic:

Originally Posted By Colt636:
They kept, and continue to keep, wages up so that the worker isn't overrun by inflation.


Can someone please explain to him the irony of that statement?



I tried. But some people don't understand making $5 an hour with low inflation/low cost of living is better than making $25 per hour when the cost of everything is through the roof. Higher wages = higher cost of the shit you buy. That = no progress.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:27:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheCynic:

Originally Posted By Colt636:
They kept, and continue to keep, wages up so that the worker isn't overrun by inflation.


Can someone please explain to him the irony of that statement?



I believe that is the point most who are in unions don't get. They believe the cost of doing bussiness is not shifted and only thing that happens is the bose gets less profit. Don't understand that inflation in the US was virtually non-existent until post WWII. Than all t he sudden wage increases and minimum wages caused increases in cost of living because business owners passing the expense along to the consumers.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:29:14 AM EDT

I am not even going to read any of the posts, unions did their job to get us a 40 hr. work week, OSHA, ect., ect., now they are just useless. They only protect the people that should be fired.
Icon




1,000+ And I'm a member of a union.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:30:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheCynic:

Originally Posted By Colt636:
They kept, and continue to keep, wages up so that the worker isn't overrun by inflation.


Can someone please explain to him the irony of that statement?



He can't get his mind around that because he's just like every other union member - utterly self-absorbed.


Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:36:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By TheCynic:

Originally Posted By Colt636:
They kept, and continue to keep, wages up so that the worker isn't overrun by inflation.


Can someone please explain to him the irony of that statement?



He can't get his mind around that because he's just like every other union member - utterly self-absorbed.





however, even if the wages remain low and inflation remains low, that still doesn't get us anywhere as a country. Sure, maybe cost of living has risen a shitload, but the value of the dollar internationally has increased too; this means that we as Americans have more buying power. Instead of having 5 dollars to buy 1000 kg of some good(I am just generalizing) from overseas, the average american now has 25 dollars to buy 5000 kg of the same good from overseas. I am sure you can see that there is a clear benefit to being paid a lot more, not relative to your fellow Americans, but relative to the rest of the world.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:38:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By TheCynic:

Originally Posted By Colt636:
They kept, and continue to keep, wages up so that the worker isn't overrun by inflation.


Can someone please explain to him the irony of that statement?



He can't get his mind around that because he's just like every other union member - utterly self-absorbed.





however, even if the wages remain low and inflation remains low, that still doesn't get us anywhere as a country. Sure, maybe cost of living has risen a shitload, but the value of the dollar internationally has increased too; this means that we as Americans have more buying power. Instead of having 5 dollars to buy 1000 kg of some good(I am just generalizing) from overseas, the average american now has 25 dollars to buy 5000 kg of the same good from overseas. I am sure you can see that there is a clear benefit to being paid a lot more, not relative to your fellow Americans, but relative to the rest of the world.



No, but what I *can* see is that you know nothing of economics.

Ever heard of 'exchange rates'?




Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:41:51 AM EDT
Yea, I love unions.
hey want to move this piece of freight over there?

It's not my job

Well who's job is it?

"Joe"

Where is "Joe"

Out to lunch, he will be back in a hour.


Oh yea, I LOVE unions....
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:49:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MoparMike:
Name one good thing that Unions have done in the last 30 years.

I submit that they just raise wages, lower productivity, and generally throw a monkey-wrench into the operations of large segments of industry and commerce, such as the airline industry. If the unions wouldn't interfere, they would have downsized to more manageable and profitable companies.



That is easy, If you are Chinese, The unions in this country have single handedly pushed most of the manufacturing jobs from here to there.

I was a member of IBOT local 863 for 14 years. After the Union refused to allow us to accept what we thought was a fair contract. We were on strike for 4 weeks then the company lowered the hourly rate that they had previously offered and retracted a bonus offer and the Union suggested we go back to work as it was the best we were going to get. I quit working for Comunist organizations after that.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:53:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By COZ:
.... there are a multitude of labor laws and safety regulations now...



Which can be gone with a single vote in Congress or a state legislature. It's that simple.

That's all I have to add to ARFCOM'S semi-monthly union bashing.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 6:03:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 6:07:33 AM EDT by Waldo0506]
If Unions are good, then they must have nothing to do with the American car companies problems.

So tell me, why are American car companies (most of whom are unionized) are loosing out to foreign car companies?


AND, can you tell my how much a Unionized toll booth operator makes in PA and why they make that much?

Edit: To help you out, some toll collectors are paid as much as $18.69 per hour.


Why?
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 6:08:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By swingset:
What always amazes me about this board, hell I guess people in general nowadays, is how utterly one-sided everyone is.

Unions are teh satan.

Unions are necessary, it's big business that's evil.



Unions did this country an amazing service, making it literally what it is today. And, subsequently turned corrupt and are ruining much of what they built.

Likewise, industry was once an unhinged beast that chewed people up and gave them little in return. Due to the Unions and public outcries, that has largely been a forgotten black spot on American history.

So, what would be the absolute worst thing you could possibly do to the working/industry relationship? Kill the unions completely, or give them free reign.

What was always needed, and will always be needed, is balance. The Unions need to exist, but need limits. Business needs the freedom to thrive, but not the power to grist its workers and American families into a third-world lifestyle (and it was once that way).

I am neither pro or anti-union, nor am I pro or anti-business. I merely see that without one or the other, we'll be right back at Henry Ford's "worker's utopia", or in socialist France where work is a dirty word. Balance, what this country needs is balance, not extremes.

What is wrecking America is a divided house, all the way from industry/workers to political divisions. We're so polarized you can't talk about a single issue (even on this board) without sharp divides that bring out venom and hatred. Sad, watching people self-destruct.




+1 !
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 6:15:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 6:15:59 AM EDT by mjohn3006]
I never liked Unions because my parents did not like Unions and taught me about them.
Then I had to join one in High school when I started working at the grocery store. All the pro-union people were flamming liberals. Which made me hate the Union.

Then this guy, who was always late and barely worked when he was in, came in drunk to work one time. He got a warning.
He again came into work drunk, he was suspended!
He came in drunk off his ass DROVE HIMESELF INTO WORK DRUNK OFF HIS ASS!
They fired him!

The UNION, FORCED the grocery store to hire that lazy drunk good for nothing jackass back!!!

There is your f'ing union. They look out for the working man.

I LOTHED seeing the money they took out of my paycheck every week.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 6:31:22 AM EDT
If you think unions produce utopia, please move to France.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 6:32:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By lonegunman:
Unions are important, every benefit paid to a working man, every safety consideration, the end of child labor, the end of the 60 hour work week and pretty much anything good earned by a worker in this country was demanded and recieved by a union organization at some point in the last 125 years.

America is not a true capitalist system, if it was we would all be broke and dying at the age of 47 years, just like we did before the advent of powerful unions. Some form of governemnt regulation is required because a true capitalist system relies on exploitation and deception of workers, manipulation of the market place and various other practices that while beneficial to people like the Vanderbilts do nothing for average americans. If you look at America before 1910 you will see a select few families of super rich and millions of poor, the poor lived hand to mouth, died young, got poor educations and had almost no chance for a decent life. YOU would be one of the poor.

Organized labor stopped or slowed some of the worst safety practices in the world, ended "company towns" where workers were enslaved by chronic debt to their employers, insisted on minimum ages for workers so kids could go to school, demanded living wages for workers so families would not starve.

I have to agree that some unions have forgotten their roots and are becoming a detrement to their industry as they become more and more unreasonable when dealing with companies.

It is a simple fact, that nearly all companies currently in operating in America do not have the best interest of the working man at heart, they would poison and kill every employee they had to make a product cheaper. Only UNIONS, lawsuits and regulations stop them.

Take a look at oil companies, with no shortage other than a refusal to increase production, they are driving the price of oil and gas up 40% in the last two years. Because you need gas to work they will steal EVERY last cent you have for no reason other than corprate greed. Maybe a look at the cost of drugs, exploiting the fears of the elderly drug companies jack the price of drugs thru the roof, you need them to survive and they take whatever you have left from the oil company.

Without unions, you would have finished school at the sixth grade and went to work for 12 hours a day , six days a week until you were injured or killed or died at a horribly young age. If you lived until you could retire, you would get NOTHING, no pension, no social security and not even a thanks. You would go home at die, unless you saved enough to live for a few years. But if you had saved, your money would have been in a stock that had boomed and crashed every decade and was probably lost. OR, you money would have been in an unregulated bank, where a speculator lost it on a false land boom or in a false business. The prices were manipultaed by a capitalist for his benefit and you lost every penny you had and died a pauper.

Without unions every job would be a low rent white trash job, just like Wal-Mart. You would be sitting at home hoping one of your 7 kids lived to adulthood to carry on your family name. There would be no college in your future, colleges were reserved for the rich and your were a peasant.

Yeah, unions are bad. Ask a chinese guy who is working 12-16 hours a day for .10 cents an hour if he wants a union. He is being exploited, just like your great grandfather in this country in 1900.




Well, lonegunman, I'm more interested in the "here and now" and the "there and future", instead of the "back and past". Now I agree with you that unions have made accomplishments in their history that we are all benefiting from today. Whether we are unionized or not.

However, in the past thirty years, I believe that unions are more of a detriment to the working class than actually being beneficial. What corrupts corporations and governements also eventually corrupts union management.

So here is my experience.... in the later 70's I was a teamster working on a CA minium wage job with no benefits while still paying union dues. I had thought that was rather an isolated incident. However, at my shop we have an outsourcing partner (Hewlett-Packard) who is subbing out part of the contract to a company called ACS. These guys are network and voice techs who belong to IBEW. They work for the low teens per hour and receive only average medical benefits at best. They do not get any vacation pay, holiday pay, or any other benefits to speak of. This is all the while paying union dues and having to attend union meetings to avoid being docked pay.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 6:37:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CB1:
Yea, I love unions.
hey want to move this piece of freight over there?

It's not my job

Well who's job is it?

"Joe"

Where is "Joe"

Out to lunch, he will be back in a hour.


Oh yea, I LOVE unions....



Some instances are just silly I agree.
But, If a union member does something outside what the guidelines are and he got hurt they could deny workmen's comp payments, he could be fired, he could get written up.
I agree it's silly but job descriptions are there for a reason.
It also prevents some knucklehead from trying to use the crane when he's not trained too.

As far as Joe being out to lunch?
Whats the matter Joe's not entitled to eat lunch?
You have lunch don't you?
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 6:39:37 AM EDT
Unions suck.......that is all
out of
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