I'm a Local 21 bricklayer out of Chicago. They are all blowhards with no backbone.  The south of the boarder variety with no paperwork are really doing a number on the  masonry/restoration trade here,  and the union looks the other way.  It's not unusual for a company owner to hold an official position with the union, involving himself with both sides of the table.  Overtime, foremans pay, etc.... are rarely enforced.  Unless you work for one of the top companies, you are sure to feel the crunch of a scab company soon, if not already.  Union/Organized Crime/Chicago--it's all the same shit. Another good reason to leave this shit hole.  

I'm surprised that the unions haven't left the Dems, or at least argued for some populists, anti-immigration, build a wall type politics.  

The 2nd biggest threat to unions is immigrants.

Quoted: Unions suck.......that is all out of

If you're on the outside looking in.
It's all perspective I guess.
Are you telling me most guys here would turn down $36.00 dollars an hour?
Are you telling me you'll stand on your belief that unions are bad and not give your family what they need and deserve?

If most here had a chance to earn that kind of money they would jump on it in a heart beat.
Now tell me that liberal college professor that earns $1000.00 a day is getting what he's worth, thats right a grand a day.
250 K a year some make.
It's actually more than a grand a day since they have the summers of if they haven't taken any speaking engagements.  
BS!

Quoted: Quoted: Name one good thing that Unions have done in the last 30 years.   They kept, and continue to keep, wages up so that the worker isn't overrun by inflation.  In some industries a unionized company is the only way wages can continue to rise.

That is called artificially inflating a wage and increasing the cost of production.  All the while passing the extra cost on to the consumer.  Next.

Quoted: Quoted: Unions suck.......that is all out of If you're on the outside looking in. It's all perspective I guess. Are you telling me most guys here would turn down $36.00 dollars an hour? Are you telling me you'll stand on your belief that unions are bad and not give your family what they need and deserve? If most here had a chance to earn that kind of money they would jump on it in a heart beat. Now tell me that liberal college professor that earns $1000.00 a day is getting what he's worth, thats right a grand a day. 250 K a year some make. It's actually more than a grand a day since they have the summers of if they haven't taken any speaking engagements.   BS!

What you are infact doing is hamstringing the company and hurting it's ability to bring in investors.  You are also rewarding the workforce as a whole, while ignoring those that strive and achieve .  Unions also reward mediocracy and they intemidate those who don't go along with their wishes.  Would I turn down $36/hr union job?  You bet, I am my OWN man and I will not have some union thug telling me what I should be compensated for my work.

Compare the companies whose workforce is made up of union labor to a company who does not have unionized labor.

Quoted: The thing i dont get from all you "Economics 101 free marketeers" is OK, sure, MAYBE some of the things about Unions they say in the last 30 years is true, but suppose we do away with them? What to stop us sliding back to the way it was in 1880?? Is there ANY incentive whatsoever to treat workers right economically? You make it seem like every corporation is America has a bloated Union. I see Walmart, burger king, MC donalds ETC. without unions, Oh yeah they treat their workers REAL GOOD!

The Federal Government, OSHA, regulations, penalties.  PUBLIC PRESSURE!

Really.

Quoted: Quoted: Yea, I love unions. They want to move this piece of freight over there? It's not my job Well who's job is it? "Joe" Where is "Joe" Out to lunch, he will be back in a hour. Oh yea, I LOVE unions.... Some instances are just silly I agree.

Not 'some' instances, but most.

But, If a union member does something outside what the guidelines are and he got hurt they could deny workmen's comp payments, he could be fired, he could get written up.

That's because of the union rules.

In 'right to work' states, such as Texas, IF you get hurt in the course and scope of your employment, you are covered by workmen's comp.

Simple as that.

I agree it's silly but job descriptions are there for a reason.

Yes, it makes it easier for some folks to claim, 'It's NOT my job.'

It also prevents some knucklehead from trying to use the crane when he's not trained too.

No, civil liability laws keep companies from using knuckleheads from using cranes.

As far as Joe being out to lunch? Whats the matter Joe's not entitled to eat lunch? You have lunch don't you?

That's the typical answer from unionists.

Joe is entitled to lunch, notwithstanding the fact that on occasions it is detrimental to the company, the enterprise, or the situation for Joe to be having lunch at that particular time.

But Joe is 'entitiled.'

Unions...just another 'entitlement program' sanctioned by the federal government.

Eric The(LaissezFaire)Hun

Quoted: Quoted: Unions suck.......that is all out of If you're on the outside looking in. It's all perspective I guess. Are you telling me most guys here would turn down $36.00 dollars an hour? Are you telling me you'll stand on your belief that unions are bad and not give your family what they need and deserve? If most here had a chance to earn that kind of money they would jump on it in a heart beat. Now tell me that liberal college professor that earns $1000.00 a day is getting what he's worth, thats right a grand a day. 250 K a year some make. It's actually more than a grand a day since they have the summers of if they haven't taken any speaking engagements.   BS!

Yes, as I make more than that without being in a union.  When my company wanted to hire me, one of the owners first questions after he knew I could help his company was, "Can we afford you"  Naturally, I told him he could not afford to not hire me.

Why does a college professor make $250k a year, because obviously, someone thinks he is worth it, (unless he works for a union).  Might be market based salary.

Why do you care what someone else makes, are you paying his salary?  If I buy a ford, I am helping pay some parts guy way too much in salary and medical benefits.  It's a decision I get to make.

TXL

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They kept, and continue to keep, wages up so that the worker isn't overrun by inflation. Can someone please explain to him the irony of that statement? I tried. But some people don't understand making $5 an hour with low inflation/low cost of living is better than making $25 per hour when the cost of everything is through the roof. Higher wages = higher cost of the shit you buy. That = no progress.

Remember the book by Mark Twain A Connecticut Yankee in King Aurther's Court? The main character in that story failed to explain that same concept to middle age peasants who only understood making more money ie larger numbers and not the value of their money ie what goods cost. This is no different. Hell, lets make the minimum wage $50! Of course pretty soon we will be like every other country where a Coke-a-Cola costs $6,000,000 or whatever the monetary unit is.

a lot of people on this board are just like the ignorant anti-gun people.  you have preconcieved notions about unions, when you hear things and rumors from tv and other people.  its not your fault that you don't know, but dont go critizing something you dont know much about.  some people here are right when they say there needs to be balance among other things.   yin-yang

Sorry in advance to the union folks out there.  I believe in fair pay for fair work, especcially for trades like plumbing, carpentry.  Union benefits help self-employed contractors with benefits and retirement, etc.  BUT, look how many industries in US have been effectively unable to compete in world market because of Unions:

Auto industry-losing market share to Japan
Steel industry-see above
Garment/Textile industry-driven OUT of USA
Leather industry-Moved to Europe/Asia
Education-Teachers still underpaid, cost per pupil higest ever in public schools
Medical/nursing-healthcare costs skyrocketing, insurance costs skyrocketing
Airline-multiple BKs for big airlines, unable to compete

Those are a few that are more high-profile.  I don't pretend to be an expert, but that's a pretty good share of American insustry that has gone overseas/mexico, about to go bankrupt or costing consumers more than their fair share.

Unions need to adapt to the modern era.  They still have a good place in our society, but it aint the industrial revolution anymore.  No sweat shops with chains on the doors in my city...

Quoted: a lot of people on this board are just like the ignorant anti-gun people.  you have preconcieved notions about unions, when you hear things and rumors from tv and other people.  its not your fault that you don't know, but dont go critizing something you dont know much about.  some people here are right when they say there needs to be balance among other things.   yin-yang

For two solid years, I was a lawyer for the unions in Shreveport, Louisiana, for every major union, except the Operating Engineers Union, which had a 'state-wide' local operating out of New Orleans.

It's likely that I have seen the inner workings of unions that most union members haven't even seen.

What I saw, behind the scenes, was enough to make an everlasting impression upon me.

They are the shiite.

And history doesn't matter...at all.

Eric The(RockRibbedRepublican)Hun

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Yea, I love unions. They want to move this piece of freight over there? It's not my job Well who's job is it? "Joe" Where is "Joe" Out to lunch, he will be back in a hour. Oh yea, I LOVE unions.... Some instances are just silly I agree. Not 'some' instances, but most. But, If a union member does something outside what the guidelines are and he got hurt they could deny workmen's comp payments, he could be fired, he could get written up. That's because of the union rules. In 'right to work' states, such as Texas, IF you get hurt in the course and scope of your employment, you are covered by workmen's comp. Simple as that. I agree it's silly but job descriptions are there for a reason. Yes, it makes it easier for some folks to claim, 'It's NOT my job.' It also prevents some knucklehead from trying to use the crane when he's not trained too. No, civil liability laws keep companies from using knuckleheads from using cranes. As far as Joe being out to lunch? Whats the matter Joe's not entitled to eat lunch? You have lunch don't you? That's the typical answer from unionists. Joe is entitled to lunch, notwithstanding the fact that on occasions it is detrimental to the company, the enterprise, or the situation for Joe to be having lunch at that particular time. But Joe is 'entitiled.' Unions...just another 'entitlement program' sanctioned by the federal government. Eric The(LaissezFaire)Hun

ETH you're a Lawyer right?

Quoted: Sorry in advance to the union folks out there.  I believe in fair pay for fair work, especcially for trades like plumbing, carpentry.  Union benefits help self-employed contractors with benefits and retirement, etc.  BUT, look how many industries in US have been effectively unable to compete in world market because of Unions:

Instead of being mad at unions for trying to get their membership a decent wage, where is the outrage at companies that are happy to pay foreign employees some insanely low amount like a dollar an hour? Thats simply outrageous that none of you see that as a terrible thing and want to blame US unions instead.

Quoted:

ETH you're a Lawyer right?

That's one of the many hats that I wear.

Eric The(Multifaceted)Hun

Quoted: Well, lonegunman, I'm more interested in the "here and now" and the "there and future", instead of the "back and past". Now I agree with you that unions have made accomplishments in their history that we are all benefiting from today. Whether we are unionized or not.

Remember the saying: forget the past and you are condemned to repeat it. Do away with unions and in no time we'd be fighting the same battles that have already been fought. Some of you can say well, we don't need them anymore because we have all these laws in place, but how much grease in the palms do you think big corporations would be willing to spend to get US labor laws overturned? And you think some of these big corporate players wouldn't do exactly that if it were to benefit their bottom line? And all some of you would say "great..those employees just need another skill set".

I am gonna stay outa this one.  I will say unions have served a good purpose, but not anymore.

Quoted: Quoted: Sorry in advance to the union folks out there.  I believe in fair pay for fair work, especcially for trades like plumbing, carpentry.  Union benefits help self-employed contractors with benefits and retirement, etc.  BUT, look how many industries in US have been effectively unable to compete in world market because of Unions: Instead of being mad at unions for trying to get their membership a decent wage, where is the outrage at companies that are happy to pay foreign employees some insanely low amount like a dollar an hour? Thats simply outrageous that none of you see that as a terrible thing and want to blame US unions instead.

Why should the 70% of Americans who are invested in the stock market decry something that makes companies more profitable?

Amercans should concentrate on producing things that cannot be economically produced anywhere else in the world.

Not specialize in producing trinkets....or products that require little or no expertise.

Let Red China manufacture the crap sold at the Dollar Store!

Eric The(Thrifty)Hun

Eric, thanks for seeing what I mean in my post...

I don't care if "Joe" goes to lunch, I do care about customer service and it is the "not my job" brick wall that I run into all day that pisses me off.

You got customers in your face and you have to tell them that I have to wait for the guy to come back from lunch because his co-workers say it is not their job.

Face it, Union Work Rules Suck. Unions out lived their usefulness a long time ago.

Quoted: Quoted: Unions suck.......that is all out of If you're on the outside looking in. It's all perspective I guess. Are you telling me most guys here would turn down $36.00 dollars an hour? Are you telling me you'll stand on your belief that unions are bad and not give your family what they need and deserve? If most here had a chance to earn that kind of money they would jump on it in a heart beat. Now tell me that liberal college professor that earns $1000.00 a day is getting what he's worth, thats right a grand a day. 250 K a year some make. It's actually more than a grand a day since they have the summers of if they haven't taken any speaking engagements.   BS!

I couldn't afford the pay cut!

Quoted: Why should the 70% of Americans who are invested in the stock market decry something that makes companies more profitable? Amercans should concentrate on producing things that cannot be economically produced anywhere else in the world. Not specialize in producing trinkets....or products that require little or no expertise. Let Red China manufacture the crap sold at the Dollar Store! Eric The(Thrifty)Hun

I think your figure of 70 % is a bit high, unless you are including all of the people who indirectly are in the stock game through retirement plans, etc.

Why should they care? Because the first priority of a company should be the people who work there. Yes, they need to make  a profit, but to do so at the expense of or by endangering their employees is wrong.

Quoted: Yea, I love unions. hey want to move this piece of freight over there? It's not my job Well who's job is it? "Joe" Where is "Joe" Out to lunch, he will be back in a hour. Oh yea, I LOVE unions....

More like two hours.  The longshoremen go to lunch one hour early, because they need time to get to lunch.  Of course, they still take an hour lunch, and then another 15 minutes to warm back up to "work mode" when they get back from lunch.  

Quoted: a lot of people on this board are just like the ignorant anti-gun people.  you have preconcieved notions about unions, when you hear things and rumors from tv and other people.  its not your fault that you don't know, but dont go critizing something you dont know much about.  some people here are right when they say there needs to be balance among other things.   yin-yang

Dude, we know all too well. YOU are the ignorant one about how the artificial inflation of wages ends up helping no one. If everybody belonged to the unions there would be no-one to support the whole house of cards.

Quoted: Quoted: Unions suck.......that is all out of If you're on the outside looking in. It's all perspective I guess. Are you telling me most guys here would turn down $36.00 dollars an hour? Are you telling me you'll stand on your belief that unions are bad and not give your family what they need and deserve? If most here had a chance to earn that kind of money they would jump on it in a heart beat. Now tell me that liberal college professor that earns $1000.00 a day is getting what he's worth, thats right a grand a day. 250 K a year some make. It's actually more than a grand a day since they have the summers of if they haven't taken any speaking engagements.   BS!

While I don't like liberal college professors, they are getting paid by student's tuition.  Thier salary is not passed on to the entire country in the form of higher prices.

Quoted: Quoted: Sorry in advance to the union folks out there.  I believe in fair pay for fair work, especcially for trades like plumbing, carpentry.  Union benefits help self-employed contractors with benefits and retirement, etc.  BUT, look how many industries in US have been effectively unable to compete in world market because of Unions: Instead of being mad at unions for trying to get their membership a decent wage, where is the outrage at companies that are happy to pay foreign employees some insanely low amount like a dollar an hour? Thats simply outrageous that none of you see that as a terrible thing and want to blame US unions instead.

Because that is what the job is worth. No evil in that.

Quoted: Quoted: Well, lonegunman, I'm more interested in the "here and now" and the "there and future", instead of the "back and past". Now I agree with you that unions have made accomplishments in their history that we are all benefiting from today. Whether we are unionized or not. Remember the saying: forget the past and you are condemned to repeat it. Do away with unions and in no time we'd be fighting the same battles that have already been fought. Some of you can say well, we don't need them anymore because we have all these laws in place, but how much grease in the palms do you think big corporations would be willing to spend to get US labor laws overturned? And you think some of these big corporate players wouldn't do exactly that if it were to benefit their bottom line? And all some of you would say "great..those employees just need another skill set".

I have news for you...The unions ARE gone! I live in a right to work state and there are only a couple of places left with unions. Nationally their power is all but gone. They are hitched to an out of power party and have little influence left. You just can't grasp that the reason for the unions in the first place was imbalance that has been restored. Good day.

The thing i dont get from all you "Economics 101 free marketeers" is OK, sure, MAYBE some of the things about Unions they say in the last 30 years is true, but suppose we do away with them? What to stop us sliding back to the way it was in 1880?

Since unions are disapearing anyway, and we haven't returned to 1880, you have your answer.

In the immediate postwar period union membership in the overall US workforce was about 40%. These days it's about 10%, and even that is increasingly concentrated in government service unions rather than private industry. No signs of 1880-ism yet, and household median income is up about 25% in real terms over the last 25 years. So if union membership is declining, and median household income is going up, how can you attribute all these magical effects to unions?

Quoted: Quoted: Why should the 70% of Americans who are invested in the stock market decry something that makes companies more profitable? Amercans should concentrate on producing things that cannot be economically produced anywhere else in the world. Not specialize in producing trinkets....or products that require little or no expertise. Let Red China manufacture the crap sold at the Dollar Store! Eric The(Thrifty)Hun I think your figure of 70 % is a bit high, unless you are including all of the people who indirectly are in the stock game through retirement plans, etc. Why should they care? Because the first priority of a company should be the people who work there. Yes, they need to make  a profit, but to do so at the expense of or by endangering their employees is wrong.

The problem in a nut-shell. The company's first priority is to the customer. ALWAYS. The employer is the employee's customer. The employer is the employee's first priority. The unions (as with all socialist sytems) has reversed this. It is all about ME first.

Quoted: I have news for you...The unions ARE gone! I live in a right to work state and there are only a couple of places left with unions. Nationally their power is all but gone. They are hitched to an out of power party and have little influence left. You just can't grasp that the reason for the unions in the first place was imbalance that has been restored. Good day.

While the major unions are in decline, the important premise to recall is the right of employees to form a union and to act as a unified body in addressing a wide range of issues. Thats something thats being forgotten in much of the country,as you observe. Its too bad, because it will in the long run require that we fight many of the same battles all over again. I don't know what imbalance you think has been "restored" because,a s I already said, it wouldn't take much in the way of pay-offs to get politicians to reverse the safeguards that currently exist in laws.

Quoted: The problem in a nut-shell. The company's first priority is to the customer. ALWAYS. The employer is the employee's customer. The employer is the employee's first priority. The unions (as with all socialist sytems) has reversed this. It is all about ME first.

Without the employee you have no company. Doesn't make sense to ignore that important component , as even many of the people posting here against me have noted.
As for the employer being the employees first priority, I have news for you: its a job. It doesn't require an oath of fidelity to the death. Your life should not revolve around your work.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Unions suck.......that is all out of If you're on the outside looking in. It's all perspective I guess. Are you telling me most guys here would turn down $36.00 dollars an hour? Are you telling me you'll stand on your belief that unions are bad and not give your family what they need and deserve? If most here had a chance to earn that kind of money they would jump on it in a heart beat. Now tell me that liberal college professor that earns $1000.00 a day is getting what he's worth, thats right a grand a day. 250 K a year some make. It's actually more than a grand a day since they have the summers of if they haven't taken any speaking engagements.   BS! While I don't like liberal college professors, they are getting paid by student's tuition.  Thier salary is not passed on to the entire country in the form of higher prices.

No just insane tuition costs.
Thats not passing on the higher cost?
What are you smoking?

Unions are an important part of American labor HISTORY

I think that would have been better....

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well, lonegunman, I'm more interested in the "here and now" and the "there and future", instead of the "back and past". Now I agree with you that unions have made accomplishments in their history that we are all benefiting from today. Whether we are unionized or not. Remember the saying: forget the past and you are condemned to repeat it. Do away with unions and in no time we'd be fighting the same battles that have already been fought. Some of you can say well, we don't need them anymore because we have all these laws in place, but how much grease in the palms do you think big corporations would be willing to spend to get US labor laws overturned? And you think some of these big corporate players wouldn't do exactly that if it were to benefit their bottom line? And all some of you would say "great..those employees just need another skill set". I have news for you...The unions ARE gone! I live in a right to work state and there are only a couple of places left with unions. Nationally their power is all but gone. They are hitched to an out of power party and have little influence left. You just can't grasp that the reason for the unions in the first place was imbalance that has been restored. Good day.

Wishful thinking on your part.
Post some of your so called "facts" about the unions dying and then I post the real facts and embarrass you.

Quoted: Quoted: Name one good thing that Unions have done in the last 30 years.   They kept, and continue to keep, wages up so that the worker isn't overrun by inflation.  In some industries a unionized company is the only way wages can continue to rise.

Guess what?  All the wage increases contribute to inflation.  It's a vicious circle.

They kept, and continue to keep, wages up so that the worker isn't overrun by inflation. In some industries a unionized company is the only way wages can continue to rise.  

___

The time of the union in America has come and gone...well, it should be gone.  Their presence hurts the economy by driving up prices, and the result is the U.S. has pretty much ceased to be a leader in manufacturing.

Quoted: Quoted: While I don't like liberal college professors, they are getting paid by student's tuition.  Thier salary is not passed on to the entire country in the form of higher prices. No just insane tuition costs. Thats not passing on the higher cost? What are you smoking?

I think that most Profs are actually getting paid as much out of any endowment funds as from actual tuition. The amount of money a major Uni has coming in  from endowments, donations, etc is amazing. Maybe you'll find a local community college paying more of a profs salary directly out of tuition, but a lot of those Profs are either part time, new to teaching, etc, so the cost there is relatively lower. You also have substantially lower tuition bills at those types of colleges. The private schools charge whatever they want not because they pay their profs a certain amount but because thats what they think the student population  ( and their parents) is/are willing to shell out to have that colleges name on the sheepskin at the end of four years.

Quoted: Take your communism collectivism elsewhere.

+1

Quoted:  I need to join an union. Somebody always says that, but when it comes time to earn the big bucks they always lack the skills, balls or abilities to do the job.  Eventually, somebody will realize not all jobs are unskilled manual labor. Finding a guy to work in 20 degree weather, 450 feet off the ground handing steel is harder than you might think.  Finding a guy who can do it without dying is harder than that.  Go offer than $7.50 an hour, no training, no benefits and see how far you get.  Your free market capitalism will probably end up about the same place on the wage scale.  You pro union people have got to realize how small the world is now. It blows my mind that steel can be produced overseas, shipped all the way around the world trucked throughout the US CHEAPER than can be produced here. EVER ASK YOURSELF WHY? Without blaming the low wages of overseas plants. I'll take a crack at that one.  Steel can be made in China cheap as shit because of low wages, no environmental laws, no OSHA.  Iron ore can be mined in mines that kill hundreds of miners a month(try watching the news sometime) by starved workers who need to feed their families so they work for 15 cents an hour.  It can be shipped on rickety rail service using a coal fired locomotive to a plant that uses methods from the last century to produce steel or it can be shipped to a new modern plant which was built without a single pollution control.  They have ample electricity because they simply refuse to supply it to people.  All along they way workers are paid from 15 cents to about a dollar an hour.  Many of them live in boarding houses and send as much money home as possible to support their families who have no jobs and farm to survive.  They create a cloud of pollution that spans the Pacific ocean and can be monitored from our shores.   The shipping company buys a ship and operates it with philipino crewman who make 20% of what americans or europeans doing the same jobs make.  It may have a Captain that speaks broken english.  They forgo as much maintenance as possible over the life of the ship and run in into the ground in 15 years.  The ship is flagged in a third world country under a front company so they pay little or no insurance or taxes.  If it wrecks and spills a million gallons of oil or kills a dozen people, they simply abandon the crew and deny owning it. Having no laws to comply with for worker safety, no environmental concerns, low wages and no pensions or health care because medical is socialized in China and government support can make it pretty damn cheap.

Absolutely correct!  You really hit the nail on the head; a lot of these developing nations, as well as China, have gluts of cheap labor, no OSHA, and no environmental controls or expenses.  They can produce cheaper raw materials and products based on these factors alone, so that nations with higher working, safety and environmental standards cannot compete at all.  Actually, it sounds a bit like America during the heyday of immigration and expansionism... right about the time serious organized labor was born!

What I'm getting at is why are you hounding US about unions?  This country has benefited greatly by organized labor... to the point that organized labor is now mostly unnecessary.  

You should be on Chinese worker message boards!  Tell them how organized labor can help them work less hours for better pay and in better working conditions! Get them organized, and start their labor revolution!

If they did adopt unions, the companys they work for would not be able to produce products as cheaply (or as quickly) and would take a lot of the edge they have off in the marketplace, allowing America and other nations to become more competative in global manufacturing.  And we can stop bitching about all the blue collar jobs manufacturing jobs heading overseas.

I'm hoping, and it could very well happen, that the UAW dies soon. Since they were the biggest contribution to killing off the last of the American independent car companies, I'm very, very happy at that prospect...

It is time for the UAW to be thrown on the trash heap of history...

Quoted: Quoted:  I need to join an union. Somebody always says that, but when it comes time to earn the big bucks they always lack the skills, balls or abilities to do the job.  Eventually, somebody will realize not all jobs are unskilled manual labor. Finding a guy to work in 20 degree weather, 450 feet off the ground handing steel is harder than you might think.  Finding a guy who can do it without dying is harder than that.  Go offer than $7.50 an hour, no training, no benefits and see how far you get.  Your free market capitalism will probably end up about the same place on the wage scale.  You pro union people have got to realize how small the world is now. It blows my mind that steel can be produced overseas, shipped all the way around the world trucked throughout the US CHEAPER than can be produced here. EVER ASK YOURSELF WHY? Without blaming the low wages of overseas plants. I'll take a crack at that one.  Steel can be made in China cheap as shit because of low wages, no environmental laws, no OSHA.  Iron ore can be mined in mines that kill hundreds of miners a month(try watching the news sometime) by starved workers who need to feed their families so they work for 15 cents an hour.  It can be shipped on rickety rail service using a coal fired locomotive to a plant that uses methods from the last century to produce steel or it can be shipped to a new modern plant which was built without a single pollution control.  They have ample electricity because they simply refuse to supply it to people.  All along they way workers are paid from 15 cents to about a dollar an hour.  Many of them live in boarding houses and send as much money home as possible to support their families who have no jobs and farm to survive.  They create a cloud of pollution that spans the Pacific ocean and can be monitored from our shores.   The shipping company buys a ship and operates it with philipino crewman who make 20% of what americans or europeans doing the same jobs make.  It may have a Captain that speaks broken english.  They forgo as much maintenance as possible over the life of the ship and run in into the ground in 15 years.  The ship is flagged in a third world country under a front company so they pay little or no insurance or taxes.  If it wrecks and spills a million gallons of oil or kills a dozen people, they simply abandon the crew and deny owning it. Having no laws to comply with for worker safety, no environmental concerns, low wages and no pensions or health care because medical is socialized in China and government support can make it pretty damn cheap. Absolutely correct!  You really hit the nail on the head; a lot of these developing nations, as well as China, have gluts of cheap labor, no OSHA, and no environmental controls or expenses.  They can produce cheaper raw materials and products based on these factors alone, so that nations with higher working, safety and environmental standards cannot compete at all.  Actually, it sounds a bit like America during the heyday of immigration and expansionism... right about the time serious organized labor was born! What I'm getting at is why are you hounding US about unions?  This country has benefited greatly by organized labor... to the point that organized labor is now mostly unnecessary.   You should be on Chinese worker message boards!  Tell them how labor can help them work less hours for better pay and in better working conditions! Get them organized, and start their labor revolution! If they did adopt unions, the companys they work for would not be able to produce products as cheaply (or as quickly) and would take a lot of the edge they have off in the marketplace, allowing America and other nations to become more competative in global manufacturing.  And we can stop bitching about all the blue collar jobs manufacturing jobs heading overseas.

__

+1.

Labor unions in this country have served there purpose and now are a paraiah upon us all.  In the Chinese economy, and those of other developing nations, they would be a progressive force, for a time, as they once were in the U.S.






Ed

I come from a very pro-union family.  My dad was his local's president for years.  My brother was a mail carrier.  I have seen what strikes and inflated wages do.

I lost a lifelong friendship in the 70's due to a union discussion.  At that time, the steel workers had just gotten a huge raise and my friend, who worked for GM, was bragging that his union was going to go on strike to get the same benefits as the steel workers.  I tried to make him see that his thinking was only raising inflation by causing prices to rise.  He would only gain because he was at the beginning of the cycle.  As inflation rose in response to his wage demands in the cycle, his union would come back for another raise.  This started another cycle.  If you were on the back end of the cycle, you never caught up, but he was always ahead.  He didn't want to hear it and I haven't talked to him since.  He retired (20 and out) from GM and now owns a string of Subways.  No, they aren't unionised!

Unions are teh suck!!

BTW, I've been to China 5 or 6 times.  They have a very strict form of OSHA with serious re-education (jail) time for company supervisors and owners.

Quoted: Post some of your so called "facts" about the unions dying and then I post the real facts and embarrass you.

From the BLS web site:

 In 2004, 12.5 percent of wage and salary workers were union members,
down from 12.9 percent in 2003, the U.S. Department of Labor's Bureau of
Labor Statistics reported today.  The union membership rate has steadily
declined from a high of 20.1 percent in 1983, the first year for which
comparable union data are available.  Some highlights from the 2004 data
are:
 
  --About 36 percent of government workers were union members in 2004,
    compared with about 8 percent of workers in private-sector industries.

See also www.demographia.com/lm-unn99.htm

Which shows private sector union membership as a percentage of the total labor market:

1960 16,907 37.0%
1965 16,906 33.5%
1970 18,295 31.0%
1975 18,210 28.5%
1980 15,273 20.6%
1985 11,226 14.6%
1990 10,247 12.1%
1991 9,898 11.9%
1992 9,703 11.5%
1993 9,554 11.2%
1994 9,620 10.9%
1995 9,400 10.4%
1996 9,385 10.2%
1997 9,363 9.8%
1998 9,306 9.5%
1999 9,419 9.4%

As the BLS points out, private sector union membership has since dropped to 8%. The 12.5% of the total workforce is being propped up only because of increasing unionization of the government sector.

Quoted: Oddly enough, being a union member does not restrict your right to vote.  As strange as it seems to some people you get to vote for whatever pro-gun conservative candidate you want too.  When you vote they do not report it to the union offices.

You made some good points up until that last paragraph.  I was union for several years and one of the reasons I left was knowing the good money I paid in dues was being used by the union to support candidates I didn't agree with - namely ANY candidate with a "D" next to their name.  True, they do not restrict your right to vote but your money (I think it was 3% of my weekly pay) is going toward candidates you are most likely voting against.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Sorry in advance to the union folks out there.  I believe in fair pay for fair work, especcially for trades like plumbing, carpentry.  Union benefits help self-employed contractors with benefits and retirement, etc.  BUT, look how many industries in US have been effectively unable to compete in world market because of Unions: Instead of being mad at unions for trying to get their membership a decent wage, where is the outrage at companies that are happy to pay foreign employees some insanely low amount like a dollar an hour? Thats simply outrageous that none of you see that as a terrible thing and want to blame US unions instead. Because that is what the job is worth. No evil in that.

Like I said, no offense as my post is a "generalization" about unions as are most of the posts on this thread. planerench is right, though.  If a pair of jeans cost $30 regular price made in Mexico, and that same pair of jeans union made in USA costs $50, then eventually the USA company will go out of business.  That is EXACTLY what happened to the textile industry in America.  Fair pay for fair work is the way it should be.  The market will determine what is fair, not union negotiators.  

Labor unions were necessary and good at one time. They are now corrupt organizations
with their own "goon squads" that rule by threats, violence and intimidation, and are ruining this country.

They are also a haven for lazy scumbags, alcoholics, and druggies, that could not hold a job anywhere else.

When you wonder why American companies are laying off workers and closing American factories and moving them overseas, it is because the unions have demanded that the company pay
the moron pushing a broom on the plant floor $25 dollars an hour.

I come from a very strong union family, and I hate the union. All of my family except for me are
democrats, because their union tells them to vote democrat. Before each election they get a postcard in the mail telling them who to vote for. Some of the members in my family would literally vote for a cartoon cat if the union told them to.

My dad has been a union worker for 47 years. He has walked picket lines, gone on strike for months with no income, beaten ass, and had his ass beaten for his union. He has held office several times at his local and been on various union committees. He has been as loyal of a "union man" as you can possibly be.

After 45 years, he became disabled from the decades of hard work and working in the elements.
It got to the point where he physically could not go to work anymore. He applied for disability
retirement, and was denied several times. He has had to have multiple back surgeries, shoulder
rotator cuff surgeries, and one total knee replacement, and needs to have ankle surgery.

While out of work, his union did not do one fucking thing for him. If not for his savings, and the help
of some family members, he would have lost everything because he had no income.
While unable to work, his "good brothers" at the local didn't lift a finger to help him, but they
made damn sure he paid his union dues each month.

My dad finally got his retirement, and is now ok, but I will never forget how hard the last two years have been for him.

Fuck labor unions and their democrat brainwashing. They have outlived their usefullness in my opinion, and are part of what is wrong with this country.

Quoted: Quoted: Post some of your so called "facts" about the unions dying and then I post the real facts and embarrass you. From the BLS web site:  In 2004, 12.5 percent of wage and salary workers were union members, down from 12.9 percent in 2003, the U.S. Department of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today.  The union membership rate has steadily declined from a high of 20.1 percent in 1983, the first year for which comparable union data are available.  Some highlights from the 2004 data are:     --About 36 percent of government workers were union members in 2004,     compared with about 8 percent of workers in private-sector industries. See also www.demographia.com/lm-unn99.htm Which shows private sector union membership as a percentage of the total labor market: 1960 16,907 37.0% 1965 16,906 33.5% 1970 18,295 31.0% 1975 18,210 28.5% 1980 15,273 20.6% 1985 11,226 14.6% 1990 10,247 12.1% 1991 9,898 11.9% 1992 9,703 11.5% 1993 9,554 11.2% 1994 9,620 10.9% 1995 9,400 10.4% 1996 9,385 10.2% 1997 9,363 9.8% 1998 9,306 9.5% 1999 9,419 9.4% As the BLS points out, private sector union membership has since dropped to 8%. The 12.5% of the total workforce is being propped up only because of increasing unionization of the government sector.

Mcgredo's facts are "right on the money"---an absolutely accurate reflection of what 'reality' is in the American workplace.  What really concerns me about most of the the diehard prounionists is that so often it is evident that they are not thinking for themselves.  That said, I'm not so concerned whether someone is prounion or antiunion, as long as they are thinking for themselves.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Sorry in advance to the union folks out there.  I believe in fair pay for fair work, especcially for trades like plumbing, carpentry.  Union benefits help self-employed contractors with benefits and retirement, etc.  BUT, look how many industries in US have been effectively unable to compete in world market because of Unions: Instead of being mad at unions for trying to get their membership a decent wage, where is the outrage at companies that are happy to pay foreign employees some insanely low amount like a dollar an hour? Thats simply outrageous that none of you see that as a terrible thing and want to blame US unions instead. Because that is what the job is worth. No evil in that.

No job is worth only a dollar and hour, or pennies an hour.

Quoted: Labor unions were necessary and good at one time. They are now corrupt organizations with their own "goon squads" that rule by threats, violence and intimidation, and are ruining this country.

I think some of you can only envision a union in terms of AFL/CIO type unions, with tens of thousands of members. My union is about 50 people. Do any of you respect the right of employees to join together to bargain for better wages and benefits, or do you just totally want to hang individual employees out there with no protection from ruthless management?

Quoted: Quoted: Labor unions were necessary and good at one time. They are now corrupt organizations with their own "goon squads" that rule by threats, violence and intimidation, and are ruining this country. I think some of you can only envision a union in terms of AFL/CIO type unions, with tens of thousands of members. My union is about 50 people. Do any of you respect the right of employees to join together to bargain for better wages and benefits, or do you just totally want to hang individual employees out there with no protection from ruthless management?

So what are y'all some helpless saps?  Do you not have the balls to tell your supervisor: "Hey this isn't going to work for me, how about doing this..." or "Hey boss I have busted my 'nads to finish this project, I think I deserve a raise."

This is why unions are so fond of the democratic party.  They think everyone is helpless and unable to think/act without some outside help.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Sorry in advance to the union folks out there.  I believe in fair pay for fair work, especcially for trades like plumbing, carpentry.  Union benefits help self-employed contractors with benefits and retirement, etc.  BUT, look how many industries in US have been effectively unable to compete in world market because of Unions: Instead of being mad at unions for trying to get their membership a decent wage, where is the outrage at companies that are happy to pay foreign employees some insanely low amount like a dollar an hour? Thats simply outrageous that none of you see that as a terrible thing and want to blame US unions instead. Because that is what the job is worth. No evil in that. No job is worth only a dollar and hour, or pennies an hour.

Not for you or me, perhaps.  See my post above.