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Posted: 12/14/2005 6:26:27 PM EDT
There are some medicos here at ARF. Can't they scrounge up a cadaver or two so we could get scientific answers about all the cherished caliber controversies?

What wouldn't you give to find out once and for all if the 5.7 really is nothing more than a .22 magnum, or the next thing to a magic death ray?
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:27:09 PM EDT
It's been done...
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:29:17 PM EDT
I hear that there is a fresh cadaver available at San Quentin.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:29:31 PM EDT

I have 3 cadavers at school but it'd be illegal to take them out and shoot them up.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:29:36 PM EDT
patty posted a coyote of truth once...
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:43:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 6:44:51 PM EDT by Carter226]
I seen on Mythbusters where they consturcted a Ballistic Gell Dummy, skeleton and all. They where using it for meat bullets I think... It was only from the waist up, but that would be all you need.

This would be legal and less upsetting to the deceased’s family.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:48:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Carter226:
I seen on Mythbusters where they consturcted a Ballistic Gell Dummy, skeleton and all. They where using it for meat bullets I think... It was only from the waist up, but that would be all you need.

This would be legal and less upsetting to the deceased’s family.



The family of the deceased do not know what happens to the body. They are donated for scientific research is all that the family knows.

As to corpses, why not use bambi, or a goat or pig? If you have enough meat in the freezer and want to hang something else on the wall, use it.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:50:00 PM EDT
Aw, c'mon Macallan! Bring out your dead!
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:51:19 PM EDT
dont need human cadavers.....just shoot pigs
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:53:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By christ0ph:
dont need human cadavers.....just shoot pigs



You are very correct. Pigs are the closest mammels to Humans (Internaly).

I cant believe I forgot that.....It was one of our Labs in Bio2
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:08:28 PM EDT
Who would want to hurt a nice pig when we have all those un-used criminals stacked up?
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:09:25 PM EDT
You willing to sign a Donor Card if something befalls you?
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:13:54 PM EDT
They'er not Corpse's yet, but will you take donations.

Don't ask, you don't want to know

GM
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:19:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 7:20:14 PM EDT by arowneragain]

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
There are some medicos here at ARF. Can't they scrounge up a cadaver or two so we could get scientific answers about all the cherished caliber controversies?

What wouldn't you give to find out once and for all if the 5.7 really is nothing more than a .22 magnum, or the next thing to a magic death ray?



Why would I pay anyone to tell me what I already know?

Lightweight .22 caliber bullets at medium velocities perform within certain parameters, regardless of the cartridge they're shot out of.

<--has been shooting a .22 hornet since he was 8 years old, doesn't need to pay anyone to tell him the 5.7 can't hold a candle to the 5.56........
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:19:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By operatorerror:
It's been done...



Yeah, data from a cadaver is no where near as valuable as data from ballistic gelatin. Next thing you know you'll be telling us that ballistic data from people people who studied actual shootings (like Marshall and Sanow) is more valuable than people who shot blocks of jello.

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 12:51:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By operatorerror:
It's been done...



Yeah, data from a cadaver is no where near as valuable as data from ballistic gelatin. Next thing you know you'll be telling us that ballistic data from people people who studied actual shootings (like Marshall and Sanow) is more valuable than people who shot blocks of jello.




I think that you misunderstand my comment, or my intent. It has been done and the data is available somewhere. I am a firm believer in real world testing and results.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 1:02:10 AM EDT
I hereby donate my body in pursuit of scientific knowlege. But please wait until I am dead. Check twice I'm a deep sleeper.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 1:04:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
You willing to sign a Donor Card if something befalls you?



Yeah, someone needs to donate their body to "science"
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:13:01 AM EDT
Doesn't the DoD's medical bureau keep data on Hajis corpses?
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:16:05 AM EDT
What if he's not dead yet, and claims he's getting better?
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:17:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
[Yeah, data from a cadaver is no where near as valuable as data from ballistic gelatin. Next thing you know you'll be telling us that ballistic data from people people who studied actual shootings (like Marshall and Sanow) is more valuable than people who shot blocks of jello.



Uh, the actual shooting results ARE more important than shooting gelatin.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:20:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
[Yeah, data from a cadaver is no where near as valuable as data from ballistic gelatin. Next thing you know you'll be telling us that ballistic data from people people who studied actual shootings (like Marshall and Sanow) is more valuable than people who shot blocks of jello.



Uh, the actual shooting results ARE more important than shooting gelatin.



not according to alot of 'ballistics experts.' they say that actual shooting results are not scientific because all aspects cant be controlled and repeated.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:22:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 9:23:16 AM EDT by mjohn3006]

Originally Posted By Carter226:

Originally Posted By christ0ph:
dont need human cadavers.....just shoot pigs



You are very correct. Pigs are the closest mammels to Humans (Internaly).

I cant believe I forgot that.....It was one of our Labs in Bio2



Human meat tastes like pig as well.

You don't whant to know how I know.


I read it on the interweb
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:23:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mjohn3006:

Originally Posted By Carter226:

Originally Posted By christ0ph:
dont need human cadavers.....just shoot pigs



You are very correct. Pigs are the closest mammels to Humans (Internaly).

I cant believe I forgot that.....It was one of our Labs in Bio2



Human meat tastes like pig as well.

You don't whant to know how I know.



Oh, yes I do.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:24:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 9:27:30 AM EDT by Forest]

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
There are some medicos here at ARF. Can't they scrounge up a cadaver or two so we could get scientific answers about all the cherished caliber controversies?


Because cadaver's (dead flesh) actually don't replciate the results in live flesh. There is a bit of scientific research on this, all it would take is a trip to a Medical Library and do a bit of research in the periodicals.


What wouldn't you give to find out once and for all if the 5.7 really is nothing more than a .22 magnum, or the next thing to a magic death ray?

Again it's research that has been done, confirmed, and published several times over:

--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.

--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.

--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.

--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.

--Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.

--Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.

--Roberts G: “Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 Grain SS-190 FMJ Bullet Fired by the FN P-90 in 10% Ordnance Gelatin.”, AFTE Journal. In Press.

(references courtesy of Dr Roberts)
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:25:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mcantu:

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
[Yeah, data from a cadaver is no where near as valuable as data from ballistic gelatin. Next thing you know you'll be telling us that ballistic data from people people who studied actual shootings (like Marshall and Sanow) is more valuable than people who shot blocks of jello.



Uh, the actual shooting results ARE more important than shooting gelatin.



not according to alot of 'ballistics experts.' they say that actual shooting results are not scientific because all aspects cant be controlled and repeated.


No two shootings may be alike, but the only thing I see gelatin being good for is showing expansion of one round as compared to another round. I want to hear how a particular round did in real world shootings.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:25:36 AM EDT
What kind of family donates a loved ones body to science without knowing what will happen to them? For some reason I'm thinking some $ must change hands when it comes to "donating" a family members body to science.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:27:36 AM EDT
If you are truly interested, follow this link, and start checking references. Dr. Fackler has done more of this than just about anyone, and all of his data is available. Images too, if you look around enough.

Having said that, one of these days I will motivate and find my kodachromes from residency, and have a bodies o'truth thread.


link

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:34:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 9:37:52 AM EDT by SPTiger]

Originally Posted By Slacker:
What kind of family donates a loved ones body to science without knowing what will happen to them? For some reason I'm thinking some $ must change hands when it comes to "donating" a family members body to science.



Happens every day. Back when I was in the funeral business, we had a contract with a local medical research clinic to cremate the bodies after the clinic had done everything they needed to do with them. If the family wanted the cremated remains back, what was left of the body was creamted alone and returned to the family. However if the cremated remains were just being disposed of, we would cremate different parts of different bodies together. Sometimes we would cremate nothing but a container full of heads, the next time maybe it was nothing but torsos and so on.

ETA- Most of the time it's the decision of the person to decide that you are going to donate your body. I'm sure there are families that donate loved ones that didn't wish to donate their body, but I hope it would be rare. Unless of course you are Ted Williams family.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 6:22:42 PM EDT
Interesting stuff on the link, but I didn't see Fackler shootin' no corpses.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 6:25:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By christ0ph:
dont need human cadavers.....just shoot pigs



+1

But hit 'em square cause those little buggers make a *lot* of noise when they're wounded
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