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Posted: 12/14/2005 3:03:55 PM EDT
Unions are horrible.

They destroyed American manufacturing.

There is no way a person in production should make more then $6.00 an hour.

Union workers and production workers don't deserve any benefits like vacation, sick days, health care, etc.

Corporations and Management are great and can do no wrong.

Union thugs.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:09:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 3:09:46 PM EDT by DoubleFeed]
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:10:38 PM EDT
Uh oh, here we go...
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:11:58 PM EDT
<sighs>
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:12:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dance:
Unions are horrible.

They destroyed American manufacturing.

There is no way a person in production should make more then $6.00 an hour.

Union workers and production workers don't deserve any benefits like vacation, sick days, health care, etc.

Corporations and Management are great and can do no wrong.

Union thugs.

It's the union leaders that really get all the benefits. Those in unions make 14% more than the average non-union. However, they have to pay into the union and other things that are 'opional'. So in the end, they hurt the company, the consumer w/ higher prices, and the worker hasn't got anything to show for it.


Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:13:05 PM EDT
There is no use for unions in a true capitalistic system. They might have had a role when laws on labor were not yet around, but no more.

Ditch the union system. Closed shop crap is BS. You get 6.00 an hour if thats what you are worth. Otherwise you are artifically inflating your wages, driving up the costs of goods and inticing your company to outsource to mexico. Want more money? Get a skill to earn more. No one has a *right* to a good wage. You must EARN it!

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:13:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:17:37 PM EDT


Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:19:35 PM EDT
Uh-Oh!
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:20:30 PM EDT
Thank god Walmart Cronies dont get Bennies.I would hate for that Co. to have to share some of its billion dollar profit.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:21:41 PM EDT
All in favor:

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:21:44 PM EDT
I agree. Why have lower prices on good's!?

Unions are awesome, we should embrace people who would rather tank an entire company/ industry to spite itself!


Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:30:46 PM EDT
It won't take long for the unions to be history. (less than 20 years)

When a company has to compete globally, it is an unsustainable business model.

Capitalism at its finest.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:41:32 PM EDT
I'll buy made in the USA cars made by non union Honda and Toyota tyvm...
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:43:54 PM EDT
Here we fuckin' go !
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:46:07 PM EDT
I don't think 95% of the people in America are worth what they are paid. Worthless CEOs who can't run companies, middle management who sits in meetings and look at the pretty pictures on their laptop, Lower management who think up ways to stab anyone to become middle management, workers who actually do anything at all. "Investment" [yeah right, maybe THEIRS] managers who can actually make a buck without stealing it. Even hospitals are broke and dead people keep getting carted out.

Actually, most businesses in the USA are poorly run once they get to large. Just a fact of life. The most fun I ever had was driving for the CEO and asst useful idiots for a time. I lost a great deal of respect for people who were supposedly business savvy. [He got caught in a round table trading scam involving several billions of dollars but "knew" nothing. Sure..................
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:46:27 PM EDT
I agree
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:47:25 PM EDT
my first reply
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:52:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:17:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dance:
Unions are horrible.


Some may be.



They destroyed American manufacturing.


Unions pretty much did away with slave labor. The captains of industry were out there operating without any decent restraint

There is no way a person in production should make more then $6.00 an hour.


That is a very ignorant statement. Maybe your not worth more than that.


Union workers and production workers don't deserve any benefits like vacation, sick days, health care, etc.


Save these benefits for people that have real jobs huh? Just the bosses deserve vacation?



Corporations and Management are great and can do no wrong.


Idiotic.


Union thugs.


Corporate thugs.



You must be a cheap ass business owner.


Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:29:14 PM EDT


Aviator
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:30:32 PM EDT
I've always been anti-union......Still am to a certain extent.......but there are some things I like......Like security.

GhostCat
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:32:08 PM EDT
Dumb...just dumb.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:35:18 PM EDT


Since the argument is made that unions harm america, couldn't anyone who belongs to a union be charged with treason? After all, we are at war, and harming America woudl seem to be providing "aid" to the enemy, right?


Then we could make belonging to a union a death-penalty offense, and finally get rid of them once and for all.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:38:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dance:
Unions are horrible.

They destroyed American manufacturing.

There is no way a person in production should make more then $6.00 an hour.

Union workers and production workers don't deserve any benefits like vacation, sick days, health care, etc.

Corporations and Management are great and can do no wrong.

Union thugs.



Oh I don't know about that.
I just asked a friend to make sure I can re-up my longshoremen's union card.
\I had a teamsters card when I was 19 and went over to the longshoremen's union, I have to pay up some back dues but it's worth it as back up.
Last year he made $157.000.00 and he only worked from 7 am till about 1 pm.

Another friend works on the docks where they measure the cars being shipped overseas, he made close to 200K with OT last year.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:58:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By krpind:
It won't take long for the unions to be history. (less than 20 years)

When a company has to compete globally, it is an unsustainable business model.

Capitalism at its finest.


All that proves is that companies don't care about the employees working for it; they'll dump you in a heartbeat and move the company overseas to do nothing more than improve its bottom line, employees be damned.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:02:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 5:03:14 PM EDT by MK4Mod0]

Originally Posted By Dance:
Unions are horrible.

They destroyed American manufacturing.

There is no way a person in production should make more then $6.00 an hour.

Union workers and production workers don't deserve any benefits like vacation, sick days, health care, etc.

Corporations and Management are great and can do no wrong.

Union thugs.




I wonder if he feels like a chicken that just fell into a fox den
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:13:23 PM EDT
I for one used be UNION before a buyout occured. New company couldn't handle the fact that the employees had a say so in the matter ( like it should be ) so they closed up shop. I my case the UNION would not allow the company to FUCK US OVER like some other places of employment would. If I worked 1 min. over my schedual my ass got overtime ( like it should be ) the company I worked for understood if they pissed off one they pissed off the whole lot of us. Now understand that not just any loe dick could walk in off the street and get a job with us. You had to earn your spot on the ladder. There were no free rides we just got what we deserved for hard work. Real Pay, Earned time off, Real Vacation, Medical, Retirement. If you have never worked for a UNION
well then STFU. I am not currently UNION but atleast I understand how it works.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:15:05 PM EDT
If one wishes to work for nothing one could do so in Mexico. BTW enjoy your new standard of living perhaps you could split the expenses by living with 15 or so others in the same boat.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:15:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By krpind:
It won't take long for the unions to be history. (less than 20 years)

When a company has to compete globally, it is an unsustainable business model.

Capitalism at its finest.


All that proves is that companies don't care about the employees working for it; they'll dump you in a heartbeat and move the company overseas to do nothing more than improve its bottom line, employees be damned.



You are clueless.
Any companies most valuble asset is their employees.
The ONLY difference between company A and company B is people. Savvy business owners and managers understand this concept.

Unions FORCE employers to keep employees that should be replaced on the payroll. (good employees don't get fired......they are too hard to find)

Look at some of the posts above where the longshoreman makes $157,000/ year working half days.......GET REAL. That is not about a company not caring about an employee......it is an unsustainable situation.

IT WILL NOT WORK.
That is the bottom line that that will get improved.

It is a simple fact that foreign competition WILL eliminate the practice of unions dictating pay.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:17:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rabon:
If one wishes to work for nothing one could do so in Mexico. BTW enjoy your new standard of living perhaps you could split the expenses by living with 15 or so others in the same boat.



Ja mang, jew gots a gooo plang.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:20:40 PM EDT
I'm happy with my $83/hr UNION wage.



Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:24:40 PM EDT
I think the unions have gone a little too far...A company is gonna go over seas no mater what the union does .The reality is American Manufacturing is on the outs and unions did have a hand in it.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:27:19 PM EDT
Look at all the companies that have been destroyed because of unions:

GM and Ford: Both going down the hole with over 60k job layoffs to start due to UAW.

Delphi: Basically closing up shop because of the unions strongarming them.

Thats just the tip of the iceberg. The textile industry has left this country along with others.

People can work in non-union shops like Toyota and make just as much money and not have to pay for the union propaganda.

All that the unions here done in the last 50 years besides move this country closer and closer to a socialist paradise.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:27:57 PM EDT
I would be happy if all Americans made about $83.00 an hour and purchased only American products from American Companies.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:31:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By krpind:
You are clueless.
Any companies most valuble asset is their employees.
The ONLY difference between company A and company B is people. Savvy business owners and managers understand this concept.

Unions FORCE employers to keep employees that should be replaced on the payroll. (good employees don't get fired......they are too hard to find)

Look at some of the posts above where the longshoreman makes $157,000/ year working half days.......GET REAL. That is not about a company not caring about an employee......it is an unsustainable situation.

IT WILL NOT WORK.
That is the bottom line that that will get improved.

It is a simple fact that foreign competition WILL eliminate the practice of unions dictating pay.



If companies cared about their employees, the employees wouldn't need the unions to work as hard as they have to get them a half way decent wage. The fact that far too many companies ( as I already said) are willing to drop their US factories and move everything overseas shows how little the comapnies care about their employees. I don't see how you can change outsourcing and downsizing into some sort of proof of American corporate concern for their workers.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:33:31 PM EDT
ha ha
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:33:44 PM EDT
The American industry with the strongest union is falling behind the rest of the world.

The states with the strongest representation of unions are becoming DEPOPULATED (i.e. the entire northeast) as people become tired of socialism in politics and in the WORKPLACE.

Union membership has steadily fallen for years while the economy and more importantly HOME OWNERSHIP has skyrocketed.

Tell me again how unions help the economy?
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:34:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By zipper:
.........New company couldn't handle the fact that the employees had a say so in the matter ( like it should be ) so they closed up shop. I my case the UNION would not allow the company to FUCK US OVER like some other places of employment would. If I worked 1 min. over my schedual my ass got overtime ( like it should be ) ............Now understand that not just any loe dick could walk in off the street and get a job with us. You had to earn your spot on the ladder. There were no free rides we just got what we deserved for hard work. Real Pay, Earned time off, Real Vacation, Medical, Retirement. If you have never worked for a UNION
well then STFU. I am not currently UNION but atleast I understand how it works.



You want to work for that company, then you accept their terms. That means what they are willing to pay; don't likeit? Find another job, or find a new skill set. No one has the right to work where they *want* to in this country.

How about describing your job and the skills needed so we can decide if you do have a position to argue that you "got what you deserved."

A lot of shit jobs are hard work. Just because you "worked hard" doesn't entitle you to a large wage. If you are not productive then you shouldn't be getting a lot of money.

This is capitalism, don't like the company don't work there. Why exactly are you against letting people who don't want to be in a union work there? Afraid they will take away your job? How is that fair to them? Maybe they are willing to the job for less. That is THEIR RIGHT.

Explain you job, and skills required and we can discuss if it is fair or not.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:35:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By krpind:
You are clueless.
Any companies most valuble asset is their employees.
The ONLY difference between company A and company B is people. Savvy business owners and managers understand this concept.

Unions FORCE employers to keep employees that should be replaced on the payroll. (good employees don't get fired......they are too hard to find)

Look at some of the posts above where the longshoreman makes $157,000/ year working half days.......GET REAL. That is not about a company not caring about an employee......it is an unsustainable situation.

IT WILL NOT WORK.
That is the bottom line that that will get improved.

It is a simple fact that foreign competition WILL eliminate the practice of unions dictating pay.



If companies cared about their employees, the employees wouldn't need the unions to work as hard as they have to get them a half way decent wage. The fact that far too many companies ( as I already said) are willing to drop their US factories and move everything overseas shows how little the comapnies care about their employees. I don't see how you can change outsourcing and downsizing into some sort of proof of American corporate concern for their workers.



Companies that don't care about their employees don't stay in business. (I should say care about their good employees)

I guess the real question would be "Why would you want to work for a company that doesn't care about you?"
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:36:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:

Originally Posted By zipper:
.........New company couldn't handle the fact that the employees had a say so in the matter ( like it should be ) so they closed up shop. I my case the UNION would not allow the company to FUCK US OVER like some other places of employment would. If I worked 1 min. over my schedual my ass got overtime ( like it should be ) ............Now understand that not just any loe dick could walk in off the street and get a job with us. You had to earn your spot on the ladder. There were no free rides we just got what we deserved for hard work. Real Pay, Earned time off, Real Vacation, Medical, Retirement. If you have never worked for a UNION
well then STFU. I am not currently UNION but atleast I understand how it works.



You want to work for that company, then you accept their terms. That means what they are willing to pay; don't likeit? Find another job, or find a new skill set. No one has the right to work where they *want* to in this country.

How about describing your job and the skills needed so we can decide if you do have a position to argue that you "got what you deserved."

A lot of shit jobs are hard work. Just because you "worked hard" doesn't entitle you to a large wage. If you are not productive then you shouldn't be getting a lot of money.

This is capitalism, don't like the company don't work there. Why exactly are you against letting people who don't want to be in a union work there? Afraid they will take away your job? How is that fair to them? Maybe they are willing to the job for less. That is THEIR RIGHT.

Explain you job, and skills required and we can discuss if it is fair or not.



+1

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:37:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By krpind:
It won't take long for the unions to be history. (less than 20 years)

When a company has to compete globally, it is an unsustainable business model.

Capitalism at its finest.


All that proves is that companies don't care about the employees working for it; they'll dump you in a heartbeat and move the company overseas to do nothing more than improve its bottom line, employees be damned.



And of course, you wouldn't dump one company in a heartbeat if another offered you a 40% raise, current company be damned, right?
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:39:02 PM EDT
Not to mention the fact that the unions are in bed with the Democrats. That's great if you are a Democrat, but how in the world, in this country, can you be forced to donate to a political party you disagree with just to keep your job???

This extortion for socialist policy is known as Union Dues...and it helps elect more Dems to congress.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:40:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By krpind:
Companies that don't care about their employees don't stay in business. (I should say care about their good employees)

I guess the real question would be "Why would you want to work for a company that doesn't care about you?"



Thats funny; companies have historically always managed to stay in business in spite of being heavy handed with their employees. Unions have done nothing more than force them to share some of that wealth with the people who make the wealth for that company and to give the employee a voice when being confronted with the corporate mentality that the employee is an insignificant element who is easily replaced when no longer useful.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:42:15 PM EDT
America needs unions.

Where else can a high school dropout make $100k a year doing something that anybody can be trained to do in half a day ? Nowhere! Only in America can a union convince it's members who have no marketable skills they are worth $40-50 an hour.

It will come to an end soon,and we will have a flood of un-skilled laborers doing the jobs that other Americans won't do.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:42:33 PM EDT
I think they were a neccessity at one point - and at this point I think they promote aphathetic work and a sense of entitlement. I think some of the services they provide the workers are good - but I dont think this out weighs the bad.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:45:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By krpind:
Companies that don't care about their employees don't stay in business. (I should say care about their good employees)

I guess the real question would be "Why would you want to work for a company that doesn't care about you?"



Thats funny; companies have historically always managed to stay in business in spite of being heavy handed with their employees. Unions have done nothing more than force them to share some of that wealth with the people who make the wealth for that company and to give the employee a voice when being confronted with the corporate mentality that the employee is an insignificant element who is easily replaced when no longer useful.



Huh, Eugene V Debs has a troll account here?
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:50:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By krpind:
Companies that don't care about their employees don't stay in business. (I should say care about their good employees)

I guess the real question would be "Why would you want to work for a company that doesn't care about you?"



Thats funny; companies have historically always managed to stay in business in spite of being heavy handed with their employees. Unions have done nothing more than force them to share some of that wealth with the people who make the wealth for that company and to give the employee a voice when being confronted with the corporate mentality that the employee is an insignificant element who is easily replaced when no longer useful.



Hey you are a pro-union northerner, and I am an anti-union southerner.......we ARE NOT going to agree on this issue.

I can best explain my position with this.

If I don't take care of my good employees, they will got to work for my competitors.
This weakens my company, and strengthens my competitors.

If you can't understand why MOST companies CARE for their employees you don't understand the first concept of management.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:52:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 5:54:21 PM EDT by DriftPunch]
I really don't have a personal iron in this fire as I work for a volitile service company. Overtime? Yeah right, salary means you work until your assigned work is completed... I would love to have worked in a business that actually manufactures a useful product, but that has been seen as a possible loser for more than 30 years in this area.

What suprises me is how some union members who feel they have the right to strike, or otherwise tell the owners (stockholders) what to do, yet do not feel that the owners have the right to close factories and move them offshore.

Fact is, the business cycle is a bitch. When a company is growing rapidly and cash is flooding the accounts, they hire and add benes like a drunken sailor spends on hookers. Internally this is pitched as 'Our people are our Business'. When margins are no longer easily attained, that goes completely out the window and the staff becomes upset and feels lied to (kind of naively IMO). It has happened here in the Richmond area, where Capital One grew rapidly in the late '90s serving as a black hole and sucking in just about every person looking for a job in the area. Fast forward to them saturating their original target audience where they can no longer show a doubling in profits every year, and you get the last 5 years of layoffs, consolidations, and overall dismay... The more a company touts this type of environment, the more they get hammered when they can no longer afford it. An ex-girlfirend of mine worked for them as a manager(in the boom years), and I was shocked at how much value they placed on one's fit into the corporate culture in lieu of production performance.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:56:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gregory_A:
America needs unions.

Where else can a high school dropout make $100k a year doing something that anybody can be trained to do in half a day ? Nowhere! Only in America can a union convince it's members who have no marketable skills they are worth $40-50 an hour.

It will come to an end soon,and we will have a flood of un-skilled laborers doing the jobs that other Americans won't do.



I worked with more guys on the docks with 4 year degrees then you could shake a stick at.
You're antiquated view of guys on the dock is wrong, there are a great many guys with just HS or less education but there's also a fair share of guys that went to school too.

By the way it appears that you want the unions to go away and it has clouded your ability to be fair in your post, they aren't gong anywhere in the near future pal.

I wish you would stop by any dock and spout your arrogant "better than you attitude", you would get a nice surprise and probably a busted lip LOL

By the way, you have a degree?
How much did you make last year?
Jealousy is a terrible thing.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:57:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By krpind:
If I don't take care of my good employees, they will got to work for my competitors.
This weakens my company, and strengthens my competitors.

If you can't understand why MOST companies CARE for their employees you don't understand the first concept of management.


And when companies work together to keep the entire career field payscale artificially low to the benefit of all the corporations, what options does the employee who likes that occupation have?None.
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