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Posted: 12/14/2005 10:07:59 AM EDT
www.theagitator.com/archives/026002.php#026002

December 13, 2005
The Maye Case So Far (Note to Bloggers: Here's the Latest, Most Accurate Summary Post)
As I mentioned before, I've been posting on the fly with this story, while trying to correct and clarify along the way. While blogland has been almost universally supportive of Maye, a few blogs and comments on blogs have noted that inaccuracies are being perpetuated. This is in part my fault, and in part due to the fact that the blogosphere sometimes functions like an enormous game of "telephone." As for the part that's my fault: My firsts posts on the Maye case were summaries, in which I collected information from media reports (which I've noted were sometimes contradictory) and from my conversations with Maye's first attorney, who hadn't been on the case in nearly two years. I don't regret putting up those posts, inaccuracies and all, because they're what put this case into public discussion. Only after those posts went up, and particularly after some PR help from Glenn Reynolds, for example, did folks in Mississippi start returning my calls.

But I don't want this to be a case of blogs running amok with foggy details. I think Maye ought to be exonerated on the facts. So before I go on with new information, I'd like to put up a post that aims to keep everyone on the same page.

Let's start with misconceptions, inaccuracies, and clarifications.


The narcotics task force did have a warrant for Cory Maye's apartment. I first reported that police assumed the entire duplex to be one residence. That wasn't accurate. However, Cory Maye isn't listed anywhere on the warrants by name. Only his residence is listed, and Maye is refered to as "person(s) uknown."


Maye was not convicted by an all white jury. Two black women sat on the jury that convicted him. The remainder of the jury was white.


The question of whether or not this was a "no-knock" raid is tricky. The warrant itself didn't specifically allow for a no-knock entry. But courts have generally found that police can, at the scene, decide to conduct a no-knock in spite of the warrant if (a) they believe the suspect may destroy important evidence, and/or (b) if they believe announcing themselves would endanger their own safety. There's also the matter that this raid was conducted late at night. An announcement when the suspect is likely to be asleep, and unable to hear, isn't much different than not announcing at all. The police who conducted the raid insist they knocked and announced themselves. Maye maintains that they didn't. I've suggested that the bulk of the evidence in this case favors Maye's account of the raid.

Let's move on to the facts.


Facts Not in Dispute


A local narcotics task force conducted a drug raid on the Prentiss, Mississippi duplex apartments of Jamie Smith and Cory Maye on December 26, 2001.


Smith was arrested without incident. Significant quantities of marijuana were found in his home. Both Maye's current and former attorneys say Smith was never charged for drug possession or distribution. District Attorney McDonald says he doesn't remember Smith being charged or convicted. Maye was never charged with a drug crime. So the only criminal charge of any kind to come out of this raid was the murder charge against Maye.


Police executed the warrant on Maye's home sometime after 11pm. They first attempted to enter through his front door, then went around to the back. Maye was in his bedroom with his 18-month old daughter when the door was forced open by a cop other than Officer Jones. Officer Ron Jones was the first one to enter Maye's apartment. Maye fired three times. One bullet struck Jones, and killed him.


Jones was not a regular member of the narcotics task force. He was a K9 officer for the Prentiss police department.


At the time of his death, Jones was the son of the Prentiss, Mississippi police chief. Chief Jones is now retired.


Maye is black. Jones was white.


Jones was armed when he entered Maye's apartment, but his gun was holstered.


Maye fired three times in rapid succession. After the third shot, the remaining members of the task force shouted "police!" and entered the apartment. At this point, Maye dropped his gun, put up his hands, and surrendered.


Maye had no criminal history, no history of violence, and no prior drug arrests -- not even misdemeanors.


The search warrants and affidavits list Jamie Wilson by name, and refer to him as a "known drug dealer." There was also a warrant for a search of Maye's home, but it didn't list Maye by name. None of the affidavits or warrants mention Maye by name.


The only direct evidence in favor of a search warrant against Maye seems to be a confidential informant's tip to the investigating officer that a "large amount" of marijuana was being stored in Maye's apartment 24 hours before the raid. The officer also says he saw considerable traffic coming to and from the duplex at unusual hours.


Immediately after the raid, police first said they found no drugs in Maye's apartment. Days later, they say they found a small bag of "allegedly marijuana," and three pieces of a burnt cigar, also containing "allegedly marijuana."


Officer Ron Jones, the one who was killed, was also the sole officer who conducted the investigation that led to the raids.


Because of this, we'll never know the details of his investigation. Nor will we learn the identity of his confidential informant. Jones apparently kept no records of his investigation into Maye or Smith. According to DA Buddy McDonald, all record of the investigation "died with Officer Jones."


Nevertheless, judging by the information included in the warrant affidavits, it appears Jones made no effort to identify Maye, to make a controlled drug buy from Maye to corroborate the informant's story, or to do a criminal background check on Maye. In fact, there's no evidence that Jones knew the identify of the person occupying Maye's apartment.


The gun Maye used to shoot Jones was stolen, though by all indications, it wasn't stolen by Maye. Maye says he got the gun from a friend. Documents show that the gun was stolen in Natchez, 100 miles from Prentiss, at least a year prior to the raid on Maye's home. The trial judge deemed the fact that the gun was stolen to be prejudicial, and withheld it from the jury.


Facts in Dispute:


Whether or not the narcotics task force sufficiently announced themselves and gave Maye time to peacefully answer the door before forcing entry.


Where the drugs in Maye's apartment came from.


Why the times listed on the evidence sheets for both Maye and Smith's apartments were repeatedly scribbled out. Why Maye's sheet lists no exact time the evidence was collected. Why the evidence in Smith's apartment was collected on the 26th, immediately after the raid, while the evidence in Maye's was apparently collected at 5:20am the next day (though again, that time was the last of three times entered, the first two being scribbled out to the point of being illegible).


The legitimacy of the warrant for Maye's residence. It appears to have been issued solely on the word of a confidential informant, who says he spotted marijuana in the apartment. If the warrant was illegitimate, police should never have broken down Maye's door. If it was legitimate, they'd still have to have clearly announced themselves, and given Maye time to answer the door, for him to be guilty of capital murder.


According to Maye's first attorney, two jurors told her after trial that Maye was convicted because (1) jurors resented Maye's attorney for suggesting in her closing argument that God would remember whether or not they'd shown Maye mercy when it came time for their judgment day, and (2) the didn't like Maye's upbringing -- they found him to be spoiled and disrespectful.


Maye's Dirty Laundry

Because I think Maye is innocent on the facts, I've hunted around for anything that could prove damaging to his cause. Here's what I've found:


The stolen gun mentioned above.


In addition to the 18-month old child Maye had with his girlfriend at the time of the raid, he has another child with another woman.


Maye was unemployed at the time of the raid. While some might take this as evidence that Maye was dealing, keep in mind that Maye had only recently moved out of his parents home. He and his girlfriend had been renting the duplex apartment for less than two months, and according to his first attorney, had actually occupied it for only a few weeks at the time of the raid. In other words, I don't think Maye had been unemployed and out on his own long enough for those facts to be taken as support for the theory that Maye was supporting himself by dealing marijuana.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:26:06 AM EDT
Looks like you found a new cause to push your pro-dope agenda
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:29:11 AM EDT
He was a drug dealer, he thought he was being rolled by the home boys, Sucks for the cops sucks for him but he will pay for killing a police officer.

You want to sell drugs and be a gangsta you might end up in prison.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:30:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
Looks like you found a new cause to push your pro-dope agenda



Well, I have come to appreciate your bigotry and leaping to wrong conclusions, but there are lots of other issues than drugs in this particular case. You know, issues that would be of relevance to gun owners, whatever the excuse for the raid might have been.

If someone busts into your home in the middle of the night and you shoot him, and it turns out that he was a cop at the wrong address -- do you think you ought to wind up on death row?

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:31:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
He was a drug dealer, he thought he was being rolled by the home boys, Sucks for the cops sucks for him but he will pay for killing a police officer.

You want to sell drugs and be a gangsta you might end up in prison.



Then why wasn't he charged with any drug offenses?
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:32:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
Looks like you found a new cause to push your pro-dope agenda





I read it as "Police do the kick down the door thing on unsubstantiated hearsay, homeowner shoots first person through the door who has not yet announced "Police!", homeowner gets a ride on the magic needle for defending his home and daughter" rather than "legalize drugs"...

But I could be wrong...
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:35:20 AM EDT
No-knocks are a bad idea unless there is a hostage situation or other extreme circumstances.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:35:53 AM EDT

Police executed the warrant on Maye's home sometime after 11pm. They first attempted to enter through his front door, then went around to the back. Maye was in his bedroom with his 18-month old daughter when the door was forced open by a cop other than Officer Jones. Officer Ron Jones was the first one to enter Maye's apartment. Maye fired three times. One bullet struck Jones, and killed him.

Unknown perpetrator's invade man's residence unannounced, and one gets killed. Thats called a 'good shoot".
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:35:59 AM EDT
The cops should have probably announced that they were police BEFORE kicking down the door and invading this guy's home. The tihng that struck me was that he surrendered after they announced they were cops.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:37:48 AM EDT
I'm curious about the whole no-knock raid issue. Could someone involved in this type of work explain why police want to raid a house if they feel that its dangerous enough inside to not warn the occupants? I guess it prevents them from destroying the evidence, but seems like a lot of people get hurt/killed because of these things.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:38:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gravity_Tester:

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
Looks like you found a new cause to push your pro-dope agenda





I read it as "Police do the kick down the door thing on unsubstantiated hearsay, homeowner shoots first person through the door who has not yet announced "Police!", homeowner gets a ride on the magic needle for defending his home and daughter" rather than "legalize drugs"...

But I could be wrong...



+1
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:43:53 AM EDT
It's the same reason cops do stupid things like the raid on the branch davidian complex-the fucking search warrant listed hundreds of machine guns for Christ's sake, that the cult members were "brazen and dangerous"-and they still attempted the raid.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:47:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 10:48:27 AM EDT by EricTheHun]

Originally Posted By happycynic:
No-knocks are a bad idea unless there is a hostage situation or other extreme circumstances.


Damn straight and this case is clear testimony to that.

That said, the jury has spoken and that should be that!

How many bites at this apple should we permit?

Eric The(Settled)Hun
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:51:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gravity_Tester:

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
Looks like you found a new cause to push your pro-dope agenda





I read it as "Police do the kick down the door thing on unsubstantiated hearsay, homeowner shoots first person through the door who has not yet announced "Police!", homeowner gets a ride on the magic needle for defending his home and daughter" rather than "legalize drugs"...

But I could be wrong...



+1
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:51:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:
If someone busts into your home in the middle of the night and you shoot him, and it turns out that he was a cop at the wrong address -- do you think you ought to wind up on death row?





No, of course not. Puts some drugs into the equation and it all good.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:52:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:

Originally Posted By happycynic:
No-knocks are a bad idea unless there is a hostage situation or other extreme circumstances.


Damn straight and this case is clear testimony to that.

That said, the jury has spoken and that should be that!

How many bites at this apple should we permit?

Eric The(Settled)Hun



When it come to a man's life? Fiat justitia (et ruat caelum)* There has been a lot posted on this on the web. He got hometowned because the cop in question was the chief's son. Race may have been a big part as well.

*Let justice be done (though the heavens fall)
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:53:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lon_Moer:

Police executed the warrant on Maye's home sometime after 11pm. They first attempted to enter through his front door, then went around to the back. Maye was in his bedroom with his 18-month old daughter when the door was forced open by a cop other than Officer Jones. Officer Ron Jones was the first one to enter Maye's apartment. Maye fired three times. One bullet struck Jones, and killed him.

Unknown perpetrator's invade man's residence unannounced, and one gets killed. Thats called a 'good shoot".



+ another 1

Hell, at this rate I won't have to type all that much.

Cool....
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:53:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
He was a drug dealer, he thought he was being rolled by the home boys, Sucks for the cops sucks for him but he will pay for killing a police officer.

You want to sell drugs and be a gangsta you might end up in prison.



you are an IDIOT! he was an alleged drug dealer. some person bust through his door unanounced, and then gets shot. serves the pig right for not identfiying himself.

if you want to be a cop and not knock first, you might get shot. tough nuts.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:54:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By uscmba02:

Originally Posted By Gravity_Tester:

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
Looks like you found a new cause to push your pro-dope agenda





I read it as "Police do the kick down the door thing on unsubstantiated hearsay, homeowner shoots first person through the door who has not yet announced "Police!", homeowner gets a ride on the magic needle for defending his home and daughter" rather than "legalize drugs"...

But I could be wrong...



+1



+2
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:56:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:

Originally Posted By happycynic:
No-knocks are a bad idea unless there is a hostage situation or other extreme circumstances.


Damn straight and this case is clear testimony to that.

That said, the jury has spoken and that should be that!

How many bites at this apple should we permit?

Eric The(Settled)Hun



Why? Because he defended his home from someone kicking in his door unannounced at 11 at night? Or because he had some of what "appeared to be weed" and happened to live next to a drug dealer?

Man, I'd hate to live in a world where I lose the right to defend myself and my kin because my neighbor is a scumbag...

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:01:37 AM EDT
When you are a drug dealer, you have already decided to live the life of a felon, too bad, so sad.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:02:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ar-wrench:
When you are a drug dealer, you have already decided to live the life of a felon, too bad, so sad.



Maybe you read too fast to notice that he was never charged with any drug offenses.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:03:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ar-wrench:
When you are a drug dealer, you have already decided to live the life of a felon, too bad, so sad.



Reading is fundamental. There is no solid evidence that he was a drug dealer. His NEIGHBOR definitely was, but the evidence against him is very, very weak and may well have been manufactured ex post.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:03:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
Looks like you found a new cause to push your pro-dope agenda



Looks like you still swallow all the DEA progaganda, hook, line, and sinker.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:03:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Gravity_Tester:

Why? Because he defended his home from someone kicking in his door unannounced at 11 at night? Or because he had some of what "appeared to be weed" and happened to live next to a drug dealer?

Has nothing to do with weed, Man. Nothing at all.

The jury was present and presented with all the relevant facts, and could look at the faces of those who testified at trial.

For better, or worse, this jury accepted the state's contention that Maye's shooting of the officer was a crime.

Man, I'd hate to live in a world where I lose the right to defend myself and my kin because my neighbor is a scumbag...

That's not what happened, is it?

I mean, unless you have more knowledge of this incident than those who actually testified.

Eric The(WellGrounded)Hun
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:03:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 11:04:14 AM EDT by JBowles]

Originally Posted By ar-wrench:
When you are a drug dealer, you have already decided to live the life of a felon, too bad, so sad.



The guy who killed the cop wasn't a drug dealer, he lived on the other side of the duplex.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:04:16 AM EDT
Let me say that I will never ever agree with legalising drugs, under any circumstances.


I do know that if somebody broke into my home late at night, with my 18 month old daughter in the house with me, than I have no choice but to resort to defending myself, that is why Tennessee has the castle doctrine. It is horrible that a police officer was killed in this instance, but if things went down as said and there was no announcement of the people entering the home it is a good shoot.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:11:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JBowles:

Originally Posted By uscmba02:

Originally Posted By Gravity_Tester:

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
Looks like you found a new cause to push your pro-dope agenda





I read it as "Police do the kick down the door thing on unsubstantiated hearsay, homeowner shoots first person through the door who has not yet announced "Police!", homeowner gets a ride on the magic needle for defending his home and daughter" rather than "legalize drugs"...

But I could be wrong...



+1



+2



+3

What would you do if some unidentified guy breaks down your door at o' dark thirty?
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:13:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 11:15:33 AM EDT by FLGreg]

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
Looks like you found a new cause to push your pro-dope agenda



Well, I have come to appreciate your bigotry and leaping to wrong conclusions, but there are lots of other issues than drugs in this particular case. You know, issues that would be of relevance to gun owners, whatever the excuse for the raid might have been.

If someone busts into your home in the middle of the night and you shoot him, and it turns out that he was a cop at the wrong address -- do you think you ought to wind up on death row?




Normally, I'd say you are FOS as I am a law abiding citizen, in a good neighborhood and the cops would never burst into my home "by mistake". But, it did happen to me about 13 years ago or so…..sort of:

My kids were young and my wife was asleep, it was after midnight as Nightline was just ending and I was getting ready to go to bed. The door bell rings I look through the window to see 2 officers at the door and another running across the lawn and another patrol car pulling up to the house (no lights). WTF is going on here?

I open the door and they tell me that they are answering a suicide call. Huh? A guy called 911 saying he was on the phone with his ex-wife who told him she had just taken a bunch of pills. OK, my wife is happily divorced, not suicidal and I just talked to her when I got home at about 10:00 (I was taking a night class), so you must have the wrong house. Their response was, “Ah, sir we need you to get your wife out of bed just to make sure”. OK, I started to walk to the bedroom to wake my wife and turned around for some reason – to my amazement all 4 were behind me. Looking around, beaming the flashlights, ect. My boiling point was rather high back then so I let it go (nowadays the result would have been different). I got my wife out of bed, they asked her a few questions and we all went back out to the front yard.

It turns out the previous homeowners had recently gotten divorced so when they cross-referenced the name our address popped up. The Realtor who sold us the house lived across the street so I pointed them in her direction and told them they need to correct their records.

After they left, I turned on my scanner – they found the woman and EMS transported her to the hospital.

I shutter to think what could have happened if I was sleeping and they didn’t knock first or tried to break in through a window to rescue this “suicidal” woman. My Remington 870 was right beside the bed.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:17:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JBowles:

Originally Posted By ar-wrench:
When you are a drug dealer, you have already decided to live the life of a felon, too bad, so sad.



The guy who killed the cop wasn't a drug dealer, he lived on the other side of the duplex.



and even if you are a drug dealer, in this country you are still innocent until proven guilty, so he still retained his rights at that point to protect himself and family. like it or not
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:18:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 11:22:31 AM EDT by daemon734]
so....

they found some pot, but apparantly not enough to press any drug charges. the person who fired was not the dealer in question but a roommate or neighbor, who fired after a no-knock warrant ws served and surrendered after realizing the police were the ones entering his home. the slain cop was the son of the police chief.

am i the only one able to put 2 +2 together, even counting on my hands?
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:19:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FLGreg:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
Looks like you found a new cause to push your pro-dope agenda



Well, I have come to appreciate your bigotry and leaping to wrong conclusions, but there are lots of other issues than drugs in this particular case. You know, issues that would be of relevance to gun owners, whatever the excuse for the raid might have been.

If someone busts into your home in the middle of the night and you shoot him, and it turns out that he was a cop at the wrong address -- do you think you ought to wind up on death row?




Normally, I'd say you are FOS as I am a law abiding citizen, in a good neighborhood and the cops would never burst into my home "by mistake". But, it did happen to me about 13 years ago or so…..sort of:




There have been other incidents. A TV news show featured a number of them a few years back. One case where an informant told the cops that a guy had several hundred pounds of cocaine in his garage. They broke down the door, shot the guy several times, and then found out the informant was a complete liar.

There was another incident a few years back where they shot an 80-year-old minister to death in his bed. And there was another in Los Angeles a few years back where they killed another innocent guy. Then there was the shooting of Donald Scott after they claimed they saw a single pot plant on his property.

All under basically similar circumstances.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:21:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ar-wrench:
When you are a drug dealer, you have already decided to live the life of a felon, too bad, so sad.




so you are in favor of the cops becoming defacto judge, jury, and executioner?
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:26:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By daemon734:
so....

they found some pot, but apparantly not enough to press any drug charges. the person who fired was not the dealer in question but a roommate or neighbor, who fired after a no-knock warrant ws served and surrendered after realizing the police were the ones entering his home. the slain cop was the son of the police chief.

am i the only one able to put 2 +2 together, even counting on my hands?



I have a hard time figuring out how those circumstances would result in a death penalty case, myself. You would have to assume that he knew they were cops and did it deliberately -- which doesn't seem to exactly match what is known.

But, hey, ErictheHun says that the jury has spoken and we shouldn't question whether it was really some kind of local kangaroo court.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:29:19 AM EDT
Wouldn't many of you say...that if it were you and you lived next to a drug dealer...that you'd probably expect that it was the cops kicking the door in??? I doubt very many dealer robberies/hits go down over a stash of pot...but I sure could be wrong.

Anyhow, I would have taken cover, fully armed, and would have identified my target (friend or foe) before I started shooting. Each of us have a responsibility as gun owners to do this.

Sure - I bet he was very surprised and scared...but even in that situation, I'm sure many here would be able to tell when it's a cop coming through the door, vs. some druggie or a gang banger. Cops have identifiable tools, methods and tactics...
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:33:04 AM EDT
Some days I HATE being from MS

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:35:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By wolfman97:

But, hey, ErictheHun says that the jury has spoken and we shouldn't question whether it was really some kind of local kangaroo court.

Yeah, let's demonize the jury, or maybe the entire State of Mississippi.

If there was some legal misstep in the trial, it will be rectified by Mississippi or federal courts on appeal.

Good luck!

Eric The(BiddingAFondFarewell!)Hun
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:35:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:

Originally Posted By ar-wrench:
When you are a drug dealer, you have already decided to live the life of a felon, too bad, so sad.



Reading is fundamental. There is no solid evidence that he was a drug dealer. His NEIGHBOR definitely was, but the evidence against him is very, very weak and may well have been manufactured ex post.



The known drug dealer wasn't charged with any drug offenses either. So Maye could still possibly be a dealer for all we know.


Both Maye's current and former attorneys say Smith was never charged for drug possession or distribution
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:37:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JB_Metal:
Wouldn't many of you say...that if it were you and you lived next to a drug dealer...that you'd probably expect that it was the cops kicking the door in??? I doubt very many dealer robberies/hits go down over a stash of pot...but I sure could be wrong.



Let's see. There may be drug dealers in the neighborhood so I should be expecting the cops to break down my door by mistake at any time.


Anyhow, I would have taken cover, fully armed, and would have identified my target (friend or foe) before I started shooting. Each of us have a responsibility as gun owners to do this.


And you would have done all this in less than five seconds from a dead sound sleep, I suppose, too.


Sure - I bet he was very surprised and scared...but even in that situation, I'm sure many here would be able to tell when it's a cop coming through the door, vs. some druggie or a gang banger. Cops have identifiable tools, methods and tactics...


That's assuming a hell of a lot that wasn't in the story. I bet that lots of people don't come nearly as close to being Superman like you with excellent eyesight, hearing, and judgment when they are woken up in the middle of the night by people breaking in their door.

In my view, if you break down a door you better make damn sure that you have clearly identified yourself. The cops apparently didn't do that.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:38:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JB_Metal:
Wouldn't many of you say...that if it were you and you lived next to a drug dealer...that you'd probably expect that it was the cops kicking the door in???

no, I wouldn't say that. I would think that it was some druggy trying to steal my TV to trade my neighbor for some pot
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:39:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wombat_SCSO:

Originally Posted By happycynic:

Originally Posted By ar-wrench:
When you are a drug dealer, you have already decided to live the life of a felon, too bad, so sad.



Reading is fundamental. There is no solid evidence that he was a drug dealer. His NEIGHBOR definitely was, but the evidence against him is very, very weak and may well have been manufactured ex post.



The known drug dealer wasn't charged with any drug offenses either. So Maye could still possibly be a dealer for all we know.



He wasn't charged. End of story with that.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:39:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
Originally Posted By wolfman97:

But, hey, ErictheHun says that the jury has spoken and we shouldn't question whether it was really some kind of local kangaroo court.

Yeah, let's demonize the jury, or maybe the entire State of Mississippi.

If there was some legal misstep in the trial, it will be rectified by Mississippi or federal courts on appeal.

Good luck!

Eric The(BiddingAFondFarewell!)Hun



We are talking about Mississippi, not Fantasyland.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:41:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 11:46:24 AM EDT by daemon734]

Originally Posted By Wombat_SCSO:

Originally Posted By happycynic:

Originally Posted By ar-wrench:
When you are a drug dealer, you have already decided to live the life of a felon, too bad, so sad.



Reading is fundamental. There is no solid evidence that he was a drug dealer. His NEIGHBOR definitely was, but the evidence against him is very, very weak and may well have been manufactured ex post.



The known drug dealer wasn't charged with any drug offenses either. So Maye could still possibly be a dealer for all we know.


Both Maye's current and former attorneys say Smith was never charged for drug possession or distribution





if you have no problem reaching for that, then i have no problem thinking that after a nighttime no-knock search in which succifient evidence was NOT collected to charge either one with a crime related to drugs........neither one is a dealer.

but hey, the cops said he was a dealer so how could that be possible...


heres one scenario that might work....Mr. smith was known around town for being an avid pot smoker, who maybe divvied up a dime bag for his friends once in a while. local LEO agency has nothing better to do in small town, decides where there is drugs there is always justification, and goes out to the house.

raid doesnt end as expected, local small town chief loses his son, yokels side with police chief before siding with a pothead. Mr. maye was black and in the vicinity so he gets the broad brush of being a drug user/seller as well.

it aint impossible.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:42:51 AM EDT
After a quick overview of the bullshit, I have one thing that' fairly leaps out at me and puts the whole "No knock" claim into serious doubt.

The dead officer entered the door with his gun in the holster. Those of you that have a tactical clue will know what that means.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:43:23 AM EDT
JB_METAL
No, I wouldn't expect the cops to be kicking in my door no matter who I lived next to.
Actually quite a number of 'robberies' go down over someone's stash of pot and other drugs.
You live in California... look for a recent story out of Clearlake where three guys broke into a man's house, started beating up his son (who's still in the hospital in critical condition). The father shot two dead and the third one was arrested later.
The father admits to having medical marijuana in the house.

That's just one account, but I see them in the news all the time.

I doubt you truly know how you would respond unless you've been there before.
I've been in situations and know family and friends who have been in situations where things happen so fast you wind up afterwards saying to yourself, "damn! I knew what I was supposed to do, why didn't I do it?".

Keep training but don't figure you are going to do everything the way you planned.

Identifiable tools, methods and tactics?
To whom?
How are these easily and QUICKLY identified in the dark as you are trying to wake up?
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:45:11 AM EDT
Sounds like he probably had a shitty court appointed attorney.

What kind of town did this happen in?
One where every jury member knew each other, and was friends with the cop?

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:48:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
After a quick overview of the bullshit, I have one thing that' fairly leaps out at me and puts the whole "No knock" claim into serious doubt.

The dead officer entered the door with his gun in the holster. Those of you that have a tactical clue will know what that means.



So your theory is that a guy with no prior criminal record hears cops at the door, knows they are cops, then makes a conscious decision to shoot one and give up immediately after killing a cop.

Uuuuuuuh, sure.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:50:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Reaper:
Sounds like he probably had a shitty court appointed attorney.

What kind of town did this happen in?
One where every jury member knew each other, and was friends with the cop?




Hmmmm. Small town in Mississippi. Black guy shoots the Sheriff's son. Sounds like the definition of hanging in progress to me.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:52:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
After a quick overview of the bullshit, I have one thing that' fairly leaps out at me and puts the whole "No knock" claim into serious doubt.

The dead officer entered the door with his gun in the holster. Those of you that have a tactical clue will know what that means.



That means a dead officer is incapable of drawing his weapon because he's dead, right?
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:53:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 11:55:01 AM EDT by The_Macallan]

Jones was armed when he entered Maye's apartment, but his gun was holstered.

Maye fired three times in rapid succession. After the third shot, the remaining members of the task force shouted "police!" and entered the apartment. At this point, Maye dropped his gun, put up his hands, and surrendered.


Reminds me of that scene in "Serpico" when the dumbfuck backups hold back and don't do shit while they let Serpico be the point man and take a face full of lead.


As far as this case goes, the devil is in the details (of which we know very little).

Play it out though.......

1) Cops bust through door to the wrong home <crash> (no announcement after kicking in the door either)

2) Obviously hearing the noise of the "intrusion", Mayes gets his gun (would he do so if they were yelling "police!" as they tried the front then went to the back to enter? Probably not.)

3) STILL no announcement from police, Jones enters first with gun holstered (is this SOP upon kicking in a door to search for drugs? Probably not.)

4) Mayes encounters Jones somewhere inside his home and fires three times. (Shouldn't Jones and the rest have been yelling "police" loudly the whole time?)

5) THEN police announce themselves followed by Mayes surrendering as more police enter.


To me, the police fucked up at LEAST twice - 1) wrong home and 2) not announcing forcefully enough while continuing to enter... not to mention sending in cop who wasn't prepared for badguys.


Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:54:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 11:58:53 AM EDT by JB_Metal]

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By JB_Metal:
Wouldn't many of you say...that if it were you and you lived next to a drug dealer...that you'd probably expect that it was the cops kicking the door in??? I doubt very many dealer robberies/hits go down over a stash of pot...but I sure could be wrong.



Let's see. There may be drug dealers in the neighborhood so I should be expecting the cops to break down my door by mistake at any time.

***I assumed he lived right next door to the drug dealer, and knew he was one. Still, yeah, I see your point - you never know.




Anyhow, I would have taken cover, fully armed, and would have identified my target (friend or foe) before I started shooting. Each of us have a responsibility as gun owners to do this.


And you would have done all this in less than five seconds from a dead sound sleep, I suppose, too.

***You betcha! My motion-sensitive outdoor monitors would have activated the series of pulleys and counterweights I have installed...which would have pulled the string that I have run across the house and then tie around my Johnson while I'm sleeping. One slight tug on Mr. Peppy and I would have already been awake, armed and ready.




Sure - I bet he was very surprised and scared...but even in that situation, I'm sure many here would be able to tell when it's a cop coming through the door, vs. some druggie or a gang banger. Cops have identifiable tools, methods and tactics...


That's assuming a hell of a lot that wasn't in the story. I bet that lots of people don't come nearly as close to being Superman like you with excellent eyesight, hearing, and judgment when they are woken up in the middle of the night by people breaking in their door.

***I never said I am Superman, now did I? I said I believe that "many here would be able to tell...", and I still stand by that statement.



In my view, if you break down a door you better make damn sure that you have clearly identified yourself. The cops apparently didn't do that.


**With all of the above said, I still FULLY agree with your statement here! Still though - you can't just shoot first and ask questions later. You kill a cop coming through your front door during a raid (even if it's the wrong house), you're gonna fry - period.






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