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Posted: 12/14/2005 1:22:33 AM EDT
I don't get it. It seems that nearly every discussion on the prefered firearm for defense ends up with most people stating that they prefer full size major caliber handguns like 1911s, Glock 17s and 21s, etc. However, A great number of those actually carrying guns seem to be packing Keltecs, J-frames, Glock 26s, PPKs, and other small guns.

I don't get it. Is it a comfort thing? Do peoples size or style of dress limit them?

Any ideas?
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 1:28:16 AM EDT
I have no idea. I've heard theories that chicks want a small gun
on the thought that the recoil is less.

I will CCW a Walther P99 .40 when my permit makes it in. (8 more weeks, hopefully)

It's a good size. Not super big, not super small.

My wife wants a 9mm though.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 1:28:17 AM EDT
Discretion is the better part of being discreet.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 1:32:27 AM EDT
Because people like to talk one way online and do the exact opposite in real life.

When it comes to firearms, its often easier to regurgitate dogma than try to do what you are preaching to others.


BTW, I typically ccw a Glock 26 or Glock 19 with X200
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 1:50:05 AM EDT
I switch between a G22, an FN Five Seven, and a USP40c. The H&K is the smallest size-wise, but it's .40, and it's badass!

To answer your question:
Maybe they are uncomfortable carrying a fullsize pistol.
Some people might not understand the concept of dressing around the pistol, not adapting the pistol size to your style of dress. Can't really carry anything when your wearing a muscle shirt and nut-huggers, can ya?
Maybe they are so physically small, that they just can't conceal a fullsize piece.
Maybe they just don't want to pay alot for a pistol, and they settle for the cheapest, smallest one they can find.
????????????????????????????????????????
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 2:18:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fst96ss:
I switch between a G22, an FN Five Seven, and a USP40c. The H&K is the smallest size-wise, but it's .40, and it's badass!

To answer your question:
Maybe they are uncomfortable carrying a fullsize pistol.
Some people might not understand the concept of dressing around the pistol, not adapting the pistol size to your style of dress. Can't really carry anything when your wearing a muscle shirt and nut-huggers, can ya?
Maybe they are so physically small, that they just can't conceal a fullsize piece.
Maybe they just don't want to pay alot for a pistol, and they settle for the cheapest, smallest one they can find.
????????????????????????????????????????

All of those are good points.

To clarify, I am not attempting to criticize anyone's choice of gun. What you carry is your choice. Even I stick a G-26 in my pocket for runs to the store and such. I certainly don't expect every single person to carry a full size gun 24/7. It just seems odd to me that there are so many people on the various carry issues boards that tell you to carry the largest gun possible in one thread and the talk about their daily carry Keltecs and NAA autos in the next.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 2:21:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By joker581:

Originally Posted By fst96ss:
I switch between a G22, an FN Five Seven, and a USP40c. The H&K is the smallest size-wise, but it's .40, and it's badass!

To answer your question:
Maybe they are uncomfortable carrying a fullsize pistol.
Some people might not understand the concept of dressing around the pistol, not adapting the pistol size to your style of dress. Can't really carry anything when your wearing a muscle shirt and nut-huggers, can ya?
Maybe they are so physically small, that they just can't conceal a fullsize piece.
Maybe they just don't want to pay alot for a pistol, and they settle for the cheapest, smallest one they can find.
????????????????????????????????????????

All of those are good points.

To clarify, I am not attempting to criticize anyone's choice of gun. What you carry is your choice. Even I stick a G-26 in my pocket for runs to the store and such. I certainly don't expect every single person to carry a full size gun 24/7. It just seems odd to me that there are so many people on the various carry issues boards that tell you to carry the largest gun possible in one thread and the talk about their daily carry Keltecs and NAA autos in the next.




For my issue: I have ONE pistola. I can conceal it, or, I don't carry it. A Hawaiian shirt and, belted shorts do the job nicely...For concealment.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 2:21:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Goonboss:

I will CCW a Walther P99 .40 when my permit makes it in. (8 more weeks, hopefully)




I have the S&W version. I love the frame.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 2:29:36 AM EDT
us smaller or average sized people don't have the crevaces to hide the larger pieces that fat full figured people carry.

I can conceal a 3" 1911 no problem, and i don't feel under armed in the least. But anything bigger, and i just can't hide it as well.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 2:35:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FieroLoki:

Originally Posted By Goonboss:

I will CCW a Walther P99 .40 when my permit makes it in. (8 more weeks, hopefully)




I have the S&W version. I love the frame.



Love the Walther...More accurate than I am. The propietary light rails that
I'd have to buy a 500.00 Walther light system for is a real turn off.

I'd've gotten the S&W too, had I known different.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 2:57:27 AM EDT
I carry a Sig 229 .40 even it the hottest weather, most people can't tell I have it.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:11:03 AM EDT
5'11" 150 lbs, I can hide a Beretta 92FS no-holster, with a good holster a 5" 1911 or Sig P226 is not a problem. Too many people think that a long barrel means it'd be harder to conceal, that's not really the case, it's all about the width of the gun. The longer the barrel, the more goes under the pants (with an IWB).
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:12:35 AM EDT
I think many people convince themselves that they can't carry anything bigger than what they are.

I'm no large guy at all, 6'2 and 220, yet I have no problems with a full size .45
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:13:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Goonboss:

Originally Posted By FieroLoki:

Originally Posted By Goonboss:

I will CCW a Walther P99 .40 when my permit makes it in. (8 more weeks, hopefully)




I have the S&W version. I love the frame.



Love the Walther...More accurate than I am. The propietary light rails that
I'd have to buy a 500.00 Walther light system for is a real turn off.

I'd've gotten the S&W too, had I known different.



And knowing is half the battle.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:14:04 AM EDT
I think the skinnier you are, the easier it is to carry a full size gun.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:18:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By joker581:
I don't get it. It seems that nearly every discussion on the prefered firearm for defense ends up with most people stating that they prefer full size major caliber handguns like 1911s, Glock 17s and 21s, etc. However, A great number of those actually carrying guns seem to be packing Keltecs, J-frames, Glock 26s, PPKs, and other small guns.

I don't get it. Is it a comfort thing? Do peoples size or style of dress limit them?

Any ideas?



For me it is a comfort thing. I carry big when my clothing permits but most of the time it's my S&W Chief's Special 5 shot .38 loaded with RBCDs
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:26:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 3:30:43 AM EDT by Rodent]
If your CCW isn't light and comfortable, you'll find yourself not carrying it.

Next time someone tells you they prefer a full-size 1911 or whatever, ask to see it. Odds are excellent that they won't have it on them. That should speak volumes to you.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:27:12 AM EDT
For me its a seasonal thing. Winter carry, I have a USPF .40, summer I have gone to a 1911 4" barrel.
I'm 5'10" 180 lb. (read not full figured)
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:37:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:
I think many people convince themselves that they can't carry anything bigger than what they are.

I'm no large guy at all, 6'2 and 220, yet I have no problems with a full size .45




Im 5'10" and weigh a little more than that

I guess that makes me "petite"
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:38:02 AM EDT
My J frame .357 is light. It was NOT inexpensive ($800). The round is NOT small. I can carry it while flying an aircraft 4-11 hrs a day, crawling around aircraft doing inspections, and dressing up for church. I can carry it wearing shorts or a parka. One weapon, all seasons. Works for me. Some people have different needs or comforts. Flow with it. My shooting mentor is one of the best IDPA guys of the last 25 years and he doesn't even try to carry full sized when dressing up for church (Kel-tec).
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:47:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By joker581:
I don't get it. It seems that nearly every discussion on the prefered firearm for defense ends up with most people stating that they prefer full size major caliber handguns like 1911s, Glock 17s and 21s, etc. However, A great number of those actually carrying guns seem to be packing Keltecs, J-frames, Glock 26s, PPKs, and other small guns.

I don't get it. Is it a comfort thing?



Sometimes.



Do peoples size or style of dress limit them?



Of course.

In my workplace, I cannot reliably conceal a full sized 1911 under an untucked shirt.

When out and about on my own time, however, I can conceal one under a T-shirt well enough to carry one in an IWB holster.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:51:36 AM EDT
I have to "dress up" in a non CCW state (NJ) for work everyday, so carrying is out of the question, but when I go home (PA) at night and on the weekends I am a sweatpants kind of guy and I have found it impossible to conceal anything under sweatpants. So I am limited to coat pocket or a belly band that I wear up around my chest as a sort of "shoulder holster"

I'd love to carry something larger than my P3AT but until someone figures out a way to conceal wearing sweats, I'm screwed
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:52:50 AM EDT
You nailed it: Comfort and dress.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:00:11 AM EDT
In the winter when I can dress with big, bulky, heavy cloths.....I carry my XD-40 Tactical.

When it's summer time and I've got shorts and a T-shirt on ......I carry my KelTec 3AT (.380)

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:01:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:
If your CCW isn't light and comfortable, you'll find yourself not carrying it.

Next time someone tells you they prefer a full-size 1911 or whatever, ask to see it. Odds are excellent that they won't have it on them. That should speak volumes to you.



I've carried a full-size 1911 almost every day for the last 27 years; it's comfortable and comforting

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:05:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By absit:
5'11" 150 lbs, I can hide a Beretta 92FS no-holster...




I strongly, strongly recommend that you don't carry without a holster.

And professional training is money well spent.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:10:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DavidC:

Originally Posted By Rodent:
If your CCW isn't light and comfortable, you'll find yourself not carrying it.

Next time someone tells you they prefer a full-size 1911 or whatever, ask to see it. Odds are excellent that they won't have it on them. That should speak volumes to you.



I've carried a full-size 1911 almost every day for the last 27 years; it's comfortable and comforting




I used to carry one for my job, and it was so heavy that by the end of the day my back would ache.

Many holsters and pistols later, I've happily settled on a Kahr P9 and a PM9 with Mitch Rosen and Alessi leather.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:18:23 AM EDT
I carry Khar P40 and a P3AT. Sometimes I swap out the Khar for a XD40 service or a full size 1911. No problems carrying any of them. I'm only 5'4" and 120lbs.
BTW I carry in a Uncle Mikes neoprene in the waist band holster. Not as secure as I would like but I can't afford the Answer yet.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:18:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 4:18:52 AM EDT by WolfFox]
I carry either a SA Custom Loaded .45 4" with a FLETCH high ride belt holster or a Taurus PT111 Millennium 3" with a Hume H715-MWC IWB Clip-On. It all depends on what I am wearing. Comfort is very important because, if it's not comfortable chances are you won't carry it. I on occasions carried my SA XD-9 4" on a J.I.T. Slide. It is very comfortable. To me the MOST important thing is to make sure what you are carrying is reliable and the ammo you carry will work every time in your gun. Not every gun will shoot every brand of ammo unless you have some tweaking done first and practice, practice, and practice some more. I'm finished!
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:26:28 AM EDT



there are quite a few states where open carry is just not allowed. some of those do allow CCW though, and it's just not comfortable/practical to be carrying full sized pistols tucked in your pants.


Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:30:35 AM EDT
I don't want my choice of CCW weapon to dictate how I have to dress. Having to wear a jacket or an untucked shirt is a PITA. I have pockets, so I choose to use them. The trade-off is that I might have to dump seven rounds of .32 ACP into someone in order to stop them.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:39:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:
Discretion is the better part of being discreet.



Thats the best post yet.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:41:15 AM EDT
I tried going small, but decided I wanted to pack full sized power.


4" barrel Kimber pro cdp II 1911
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:57:10 AM EDT
I wear business casual clothes to work. Tucked in shirts, belts, decent pants. Even though I am 6'3" and 200 lbs, I will simply need a smaller pistol for CCW when I get my license. I don't promote using full size 1911s etc for CCW either - fine if you can but it's not necessary.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:22:58 AM EDT
To many people the concept of a CCW is to provide some measure of protection consistent with one's lifestyle. In some cases that may require some adaptation of the CCW to one's clothing, not everyone likes to wear BDU's with an extra inch or so in the waistline to accomodate yer glock. In my case my lifestyle is defined by my kids who sometimes want daddy to go down the slide with them.

Me i just don't carre to adjust my life to fit a gun. i make my choice with full knowledge of the compromise i am accepting. Hell a handgun alone is a major compromise.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:36:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:39:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By joker581:
I don't get it. It seems that nearly every discussion on the prefered firearm for defense ends up with most people stating that they prefer full size major caliber handguns like 1911s, Glock 17s and 21s, etc. However, A great number of those actually carrying guns seem to be packing Keltecs, J-frames, Glock 26s, PPKs, and other small guns.

I don't get it. Is it a comfort thing? Do peoples size or style of dress limit them?

Any ideas?



Style of dress limits what you carry. Nothing wrong with a Glock 26. 11 (or 13) rounds of RA9T is as well armed as any service pistol is going to make you.

No reason to a carry a Keltec when there are J frames.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:42:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:42:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Goonboss:

Originally Posted By joker581:

Originally Posted By fst96ss:
I switch between a G22, an FN Five Seven, and a USP40c. The H&K is the smallest size-wise, but it's .40, and it's badass!

To answer your question:
Maybe they are uncomfortable carrying a fullsize pistol.
Some people might not understand the concept of dressing around the pistol, not adapting the pistol size to your style of dress. Can't really carry anything when your wearing a muscle shirt and nut-huggers, can ya?
Maybe they are so physically small, that they just can't conceal a fullsize piece.
Maybe they just don't want to pay alot for a pistol, and they settle for the cheapest, smallest one they can find.
????????????????????????????????????????

All of those are good points.

To clarify, I am not attempting to criticize anyone's choice of gun. What you carry is your choice. Even I stick a G-26 in my pocket for runs to the store and such. I certainly don't expect every single person to carry a full size gun 24/7. It just seems odd to me that there are so many people on the various carry issues boards that tell you to carry the largest gun possible in one thread and the talk about their daily carry Keltecs and NAA autos in the next.




For my issue: I have ONE pistola. I can conceal it, or, I don't carry it. A Hawaiian shirt and, belted shorts do the job nicely...For concealment.



which is fine until you need to go to court, a wedding, a business dinner, ect. then a J-frame in the pocket or a glock 26 on the ankle beats no gun at all.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:47:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
I have had no trouble carrying a 1911 almost everyday in my off time, and a Sig P229 at work. I'm a fairly large fellow (6'3" 230lbs), but it's really all about the holster, belt and concealment garment.




What do you carry when wearing no jacket and a tucket in shirt? How about a tux? how about a tailored business suit?

a J Frame in your pocket beats a 1911 left home becuase you couldnt conceal it with the uniform of the "uniform of day."
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:50:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:51:36 AM EDT
What was the saying I heard someone mention........oh yeah.

People talk .45s, shoot 9mm, and then carry a .38 snubby.

Personally right now I have a XD9 Subcompact on in a tuckable holster.

When I get out of work and I am at home it is the full sized 1911 in a Milt Sparks VM2 holster.

Sometimes, like in the summer on a jobsite, I carry a Kel-Tec P3AT .380 because it can basically disappear into a pocket.

While the 1911 is fairly easy to conceal, I've found that I would rather carry a smaller lighter pistol.

Don't forget extra magazines, they have got to be around somewhere as well.

YMMV.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:04:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:35:57 AM EDT
I think it goes without saying that anyone would prefer a full size, full power gun for defense if they can choose. Carrying that brick around is another issue. I think the desire for little pistols has several things behind it.
One is that most people do not live in an intense environment where they think they will really need their pistol to kill armed criminals. Anything can happen anywhere of course, but if you live in a small town or upscale area where violent street crime is pretty rare, the added value of carrying a full house gun seems not worth it.
Another thing is carry options. To carry even a Glock 19 size gun you need a real holster and a real belt. A minimum rig would be a Summer Special and a Dillon belt. Without quality leather your gun will not stay put, may fall out if you are playing with the kids, and will poke and aggravate you all day. You still need to have a jacket or untucked shirt tail and that is not possible for a lot of people at their jobs.
Lastly I will say that most people carry a gun more as a lucky charm than a weapon. I live in a very crime ridden area and I carry a Glock 19 and an extra mag. I long ago swore off J frames and small autos. Most people I know who carry are toting something similar like a 1911 or SIG. We view our guns as weapons. They are not pets. They have few or no modifications, are ugly from constant carry and we couldn't care less, and are seen as disposible. We believe our guns will wind up rusting away in an evidence room at some point. We have no regard for the lives of those who threaten us. This is due to a mixture of training and personality type.
This is very different from other people I know who carry small guns and no reload. They for the most part don't really think they will ever use their weapon. It just makes them "feel better" to have it. The other day I was with a guy who said he needed to stop by the bank machine. He reached under the seat and took out a holstered 357 and set it on the seat next to him. We got to the bank machine and he left the gun on the seat and got his money. How did this help him? It is just a way of feeling more secure. Of course he knows I am sitting right there but that is beside the point.
To anyone who carries a gun in their pocket I will say this. Put your gun in your pocket unloaded, Reach into your pocket and get your gun in a firing grip. Now pull it out of your pocket. If you are honest I think you will find you can't or it's difficult. Unless you have very small hands or very large pockets (outer coat pockets) it is almost impossible to remove your balled up hand with a gun in it from your pocket. Drawing a gun from your pocket under stress is a good way to zing a round into your leg.
I think it is true that a lot of people would carry a full size gun if there was a threat level to warrant it in their mind. Guys like my brother who are corporate dudes and spend their day indoors at company XYZ and then go home through nice areas to a peaceful neighborhood don't feel the same way about things as a guy who is driving around all day in a rough area picking up money from carwashes or someone refilling ATMs or someone like me who lives in an area known for street crime.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:37:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 6:46:47 AM EDT by HardShell]

Originally Posted By joker581:
I don't get it...



Originally Posted By joker581:
... Even I stick a G-26 in my pocket for runs to the store and such. I certainly don't expect every single person to carry a full size gun 24/7...


You answered your own question IMHO. I think you "get it" just fine.

Most of us would avoid any armed confrontation if possible. Most of us would choose a rifle if one could not be avoided. But most of cannot carry a rifle 24/7 so we compromise and carry handguns, mostly concealed.

Internet braggadocio aside, those who are not military or LEO and carry a full-size handgun concealed every waking moment are very few and far between. Those who do so in business attire are rarer still. Some do, of course, but not nearly with the prevalence one might assume by reading postings on boards like this.

I carry a full-sized handgun (and a pocketed BUG, FTM) concealed whenever I am “out” (not in my home or office) and have done so for 20+ years now. But when I am at home or at work, I usually only have the pocket-gun on me (I do carry a spare mag for it when it serves as primary, FWIW). This is an informed and seriously-considered compromise I have made and one I believe I can live with. I am diligent about training with my pocket-gun as seriously as with my larger primary because it sometimes “flies solo.” I also have the added comfort of a wife who is gun-savvy and serious about SD/HD and, due to the advantage of carrying a purse (Darn the man-bag for not catching on among heterosexuals!), almost always has her full-size gun with her. Neither of us is ever far from something more “substantial,” but I believe I could handle most real-world (i.e., close, sudden, & brief) SD situations effectively with my pocket-gun. YMMV.

Each one of us has to decide if & how much we are willing to compromise, IOW where does preparation/readiness become a trde-off for normalcy? And there is almost always a compromise to be made, regardless of protestations to the contrary. Do we sit at home in the dark with the largest available weapon aimed at the door or go willfully ignorant into a very dangerous public unarmed and oblivious to our surroundings? For most of us it somewhere in between... and, for most of us here, much closer to the former than the latter.


Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:39:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Paul:

Ever notice how easy it is to find Waldo when he's dress differently than everyone else because he's got five pounds of steel slipped into his waist band? You have to dress like and carry yourself like the local population does.



I'm over 6'4" tall, weigh ~ 300 and look like an ex-football player turned Santa Claus (neatly trimmed full beard and long hair, though I'm not round, just big). I stand out in a crowd no matter what I'm wearing.

It's very rare that I can't actually conceal a 1911; pretty much just summer shorts, t-shirt and sandals weather, in which case I use a fanny pack with a S&W 325PD
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:41:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 6:45:26 AM EDT by Alien]
I strap on my fullsize 1911 (with full length rail/dustcover) every time I go out. I bring an extra mag or two as well. I’m just more comfortable carrying a full size gun.

You can’t tell I’m carrying unless I bend over and the grip of my pistol prints. I would like to get another HK USP and maybe even a USP compact to carry, but the truth is I shoot my 1911 better than any other pistol I’ve ever shot and now I’m spoiled by its trigger. I realize practice makes perfect though.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:52:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:
If your CCW isn't light and comfortable, you'll find yourself not carrying it.

Next time someone tells you they prefer a full-size 1911 or whatever, ask to see it. Odds are excellent that they won't have it on them. That should speak volumes to you.



Indeed. The Kahr PM9 I carry is a very good compromise of caliber vs. size. Pocket carry is very convenient also, especially when you must disarm occasionally to enter a prohibited location.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:56:16 AM EDT
It is all relative. You have people saying size and weight matter. Yes they do, but its relative. You have people saying you dress around the gun, yes but its relative.

I'm a not huge, but I'm a big guy. 6'3" and ~220lb. I have, while waiting on my CCW (damn 4 mo wait) have expiremented with caryring my USP 45 Fullsize around the homestead in different attire. Its the only pistol I have to work with so I can't really go to something smaller at the moment. I have found it pretty easy to conceal. But it is relative to me. I have broad shoulders and upper body, so that kind of puts a roof over the holster and pistol so to speak, so cloths hang away from it in the 3-5 oclock position. I've rolled around on the ground, etc, never a problem.

The weight doesn't bother me really.

Professional attire? Wear a coat. No, don't like that? Tuck you shirt in so it flares out a bit. They also make those belly bands to tuck guns in. Casual, untucked shirt works just fine for me with an undershirt. I have found that wearing pants over shorts makes nearly no difference. Buy you pants one size to big.

Any pistol can be concealed. Its just dependent on how far you are willing to dress around the gun. You build plays the most important role IMO. Hit the weights and bulk up your shoulders
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:59:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 7:00:00 AM EDT by HardShell]

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:
... Professional attire? Wear a coat. No, don't like that? Tuck you shirt in so it flares out a bit. They also make those belly bands to tuck guns in...



Try tucking that full-size .45 USP of yours in one of those belly-bands and get back to us...
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:01:08 AM EDT
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