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Posted: 12/13/2005 2:55:24 PM EDT
you in an advanced pistol class and half way thru the class the instructor stops the class. he walks to the target line and stands beside one of the targets. he then asks the first student in the row to fire two rounds into the target he is standing next to.

so what as a student do you do?


Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:09:33 PM EDT
I'd call my brother and tell him to come over. He's never seen anybody get shot before.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:10:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GAcop:
I'd call my brother and tell him to come over. He's never seen anybody get shot before.



Good answer.
I'm gonna have to go with this one.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:12:14 PM EDT
quick question, is the target tannerite?
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:16:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By hk940:
you in an advanced pistol class and half way thru the class the instructor stops the class. he walks to the target line and stands beside one of the targets. he then asks the first student in the row to fire two rounds into the target he is standing next to.

so what as a student do you do?





Put the two rounds in the damn target.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:16:16 PM EDT
Line's hot????


Doubletap.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:17:16 PM EDT
First aid.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:18:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By hk940:
you in an advanced pistol class and half way thru the class the instructor stops the class. he walks to the target line and stands beside one of the targets. he then asks the first student in the row to fire two rounds into the target he is standing next to.

so what as a student do you do?





Leave. The fucker is crazy and I don't want to be on a hot range with him.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:19:16 PM EDT
Start reading his last rites.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:20:05 PM EDT
Pull out my first aid kit and be ready to save this mans life when he takes two bullets.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:20:54 PM EDT
shoot the damned target and dont miss.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:24:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By hk940:
you in an advanced pistol class and half way thru the class the instructor stops the class. he walks to the target line and stands beside one of the targets. he then asks the first student in the row to fire two rounds into the target he is standing next to.

so what as a student do you do?





Leave. The fucker is crazy and I don't want to be on a hot range with him.



yep. ask for your money back..
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:37:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 3:39:58 PM EDT by Yojimbo]

Originally Posted By hk940:
you in an advanced pistol class and half way thru the class the instructor stops the class. he walks to the target line and stands beside one of the targets. he then asks the first student in the row to fire two rounds into the target he is standing next to.

so what as a student do you do?





The key word is advanced. I certainly wouldn't like to see this type of training in a beginners class.

I know what trainer you're talking about and what I would do depends a lot on the situation.

If it was an just an usafe, bullshit stunt for bragging rights then I would leave but if it was a legitimate and controlled training exercise then I would probably stay.

There are some very advanced courses where highly trained individuals perform exercises like these.

As I mentioned earlier a lot would depend on the situation...



Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:41:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 3:43:26 PM EDT by GUNGUY1911]

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:

Originally Posted By hk940:
you in an advanced pistol class and half way thru the class the instructor stops the class. he walks to the target line and stands beside one of the targets. he then asks the first student in the row to fire two rounds into the target he is standing next to.

so what as a student do you do?





The key word is advanced. I certainly wouldn't like to see this type of training in a beginners class.

I know what trainer you're talking about and what I would do depends a lot on the situation.

If it was an just an usafe, bullshit stunt for bragging rights then I would leave but if it was a legitimate and controlled training exercise then I would probably stay.

There are some very advanced courses where highly trained indviduals perform exercises like these.

As I mentioned earlier a lot would depend on the situation...




That's my take on the stunt in question from the trainer in question, but fact is that not all ranges are one-directional, and in a different set of circumstances it isn't unheard of to be down range on a "hot" lane with someone firing.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:43:40 PM EDT
That is not the kind of stunt you pull in a class of people who do not normally work together. Yes, there are military groups who do live fire kill house training with live humans as hostages/observers but these are groups that train together. I would ask for my money back as I left. Simunitions/airsoft/paintball sure why not, but not live ammo.

ETA, while I am confident enough of my shooting ability to take some risque shoots in training, I would only do so with real humans in a life or death situation.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:49:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 3:51:14 PM EDT by www-glock19-com]
heh read SWAT this month huh?
Gabe Sauerez (or wahtever his name is ) did a class in Omaha last year with OPD
I shot IPSC with a couple of guys that were there they were very unimpressed
has to get shot at to keep his warrior edge
he used to troll at glocktalk bigtime and got banned

general opinon is he is a hack


Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:51:23 PM EDT
I would be too scared to take the shot.
I am pretty sure that I wold not hit the instructor, but there is always the "if".

[slight hijack] From the legal point of view, how would it go if someone shot the instructor? [/slight hijack]
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:51:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 3:52:13 PM EDT by EPOCH96]
What if it actually happen?


Third, the article on Suarez International Terrorism Interdiction Course. I won't be the spoiler for those who have not gotten/read this issue yet, but holy cow (again)! This is the exact reason why I have been a SWAT Magazine subscriber for two years, and why I will continue to be as long as you call it like you see it. This is also the reason why I don't subscribe to any other gun mags! Nuff' said here.

Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:53:35 PM EDT
hes got a forum since hes been banned most places
http://www.warriortalk.com/
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 4:01:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 4:09:08 PM EDT
I remember some rule about not pointing a firearm towards anything you didn’t want to kill or destroy.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 4:15:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By www-glock19-com:
heh read SWAT this month huh?
Gabe Sauerez (or wahtever his name is ) did a class in Omaha last year with OPD
I shot IPSC with a couple of guys that were there they were very unimpressed
has to get shot at to keep his warrior edge
he used to troll at glocktalk bigtime and got banned

general opinon is he is a hack





that article prompted calls to a few instructors i know. I was surprised that a few of them actually said YEA! They did it with advanced students. Comments I got were you should see the group sizes shrink. When a 6”-12” group was good enough the students shot the two rounds as single holes or clover leaves. A couple of them talked at length with me and I still think they are nuts.

Link Posted: 12/13/2005 4:47:03 PM EDT
What would I do ??

I'd decline in the scenario you presented above , but in a different
situation I would probably take the shot .

People tempt fate all the time in pursuit of a thrill .
Base Jumping , Free solo climbing , ETC ...

Standing next to a target , or being the shooter
when you're confident in the other persons ability
really isn't much different then doing any of the above .

Is it on my " To Do " list . No it's not , but I won't deny
that it could be
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 4:55:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By hk940:

Originally Posted By www-glock19-com:
heh read SWAT this month huh?
Gabe Sauerez (or wahtever his name is ) did a class in Omaha last year with OPD
I shot IPSC with a couple of guys that were there they were very unimpressed
has to get shot at to keep his warrior edge
he used to troll at glocktalk bigtime and got banned

general opinon is he is a hack





that article prompted calls to a few instructors i know. I was surprised that a few of them actually said YEA! They did it with advanced students. Comments I got were you should see the group sizes shrink. When a 6”-12” group was good enough the students shot the two rounds as single holes or clover leaves. A couple of them talked at length with me and I still think they are nuts.




If you need a circumstance like that to tighten up your groups....then you suck anyway.

A 6"-12" inch group at anything less than 30 yards with a pistol is inexcusible.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 4:59:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Yossarian:

Originally Posted By hk940:

Originally Posted By www-glock19-com:
heh read SWAT this month huh?
Gabe Sauerez (or wahtever his name is ) did a class in Omaha last year with OPD
I shot IPSC with a couple of guys that were there they were very unimpressed
has to get shot at to keep his warrior edge
he used to troll at glocktalk bigtime and got banned

general opinon is he is a hack





that article prompted calls to a few instructors i know. I was surprised that a few of them actually said YEA! They did it with advanced students. Comments I got were you should see the group sizes shrink. When a 6”-12” group was good enough the students shot the two rounds as single holes or clover leaves. A couple of them talked at length with me and I still think they are nuts.




If you need a circumstance like that to tighten up your groups....then you suck anyway.

A 6"-12" inch group at anything less than 30 yards with a pistol is inexcusible.



other instructors have said if you shoot smaller than 6-12" inches you are taking to much time to aim and shooting too slow. 3 solid hits in a 12" circle in two seconds will beat two good hits in four seconds.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 5:01:59 PM EDT
Well, in the circumstance you described, I doubt any of the shooters would be putting three rounds downrange with their instructor standing next to the target in two seconds.

I am willing to bet they would be taking some time lining up their shots. That is why I took the
"target shooting" scenario, and stand by my evaluation.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 5:05:46 PM EDT
I would do it, but I don't see a point. The only reason I see for that drill is to instill trust in guys who will fight together.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 5:07:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 5:16:31 PM EDT by AcidGambit]
Shoot the friggin' target... I've done it and had it done w/ me next to the target. The goddamn targets are like 18" wide, your shooting from under 10yds, and it's an advanced pistol class... What's the problem ? Your muzzle is not covering him !
I would go down range depending one how the guys next to me shot the previod day and a half.

Like I said, I have done it.

It is to benifit the shooter, to add stress. Like it or not, you get into a fight, there may actually be non-threats near the target you are engaging.

All the instructors I have done it with ( not Suarez !!!! ) have given everyone the chance to opt out.

It's really no big deal, unless you have a total dumb fuck shooting... In which case, the instructor probably won't run the drill or will make said dumbass sit it out.

Like I said, it's not a big deal... If you are in a class that does it and don't want to, don't do it and just press the delete button.

Hey, if you can't put two rounds in a 5" circle from 10yds... you're fucking incompetent okay, you need to go to a basic pistol class where you work on nothing but trigger control and sight alignment.... or sell your pistols.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 5:10:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I would do it, but I don't see a point. The only reason I see for that drill is to instill trust in guys who will fight together.



It is to benifit the shooter, to add stress. Like it or not, you get into a fight, there may actually be non-threats near the target you are engaging...
The times we have done it students reaction time slows down not a huge amount, but maybe 1/10-2.5/10 of a second (some are more extreem.) You will usually have a couple of students who's times are actually faster.
We always did it from leather (or plastic these days) and from concealment.



Link Posted: 12/13/2005 5:22:19 PM EDT
as we say in the army

"good training"
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 5:51:38 PM EDT
The instructor is obvously nuts.

Unload my pistol, put it in my case, and go home.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:00:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 6:08:00 PM EDT by FedGunner]

Originally Posted By hk940:
you in an advanced pistol class and half way thru the class the instructor stops the class. he walks to the target line and stands beside one of the targets. he then asks the first student in the row to fire two rounds into the target he is standing next to.

so what as a student do you do?





Walk away shaking my head.

(Much left unsaid, my boss told me to be nice.)

Edited to add:

Please keep in mind that these folks are not a cohesive S.W.A.T. team. They are not an Army or Marine fire team. We are talking about of near green civies.

There are instructors that do this... as a confidence building exercise.
I have assumed we are referencing the SWAT Magazine article.

:: Hai Sensi! I shut up NOW!::
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:04:06 PM EDT
I'd walk.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:07:25 PM EDT
I'm holding the pistol and pulling the trigger, so it's my responsibility. In a civilian training session - no way.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:10:12 PM EDT
I'd put two rounds in the target and wonder what the big deal is. I don't have a habit of missing targets, once I get to an advanced class. Since it's a pistol class, the target's probably closer than 25m, too, making it an easy shot.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:12:38 PM EDT
The reason so many of us train like this is so we can save innocent lives, not put them at risk for no good reason. I have a feeling if someone killed or shot the instructor, it would be very difficult for them to even hold a weapon again...some learning experience that is. It was said that someone stands next to the target to add stress...for what reason?...to see if they can deal with it? What if they can't?...too bad? If they CAN deal with the stress, nothing is learned, if they can't...someone dies.

just my .02
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:15:25 PM EDT
I am really surprised at the number of people who would shoot.

I would have bet money almost everyone would have said walk…
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:15:34 PM EDT
Cover my eyes with my weak hand and announce I'm going to use the Force.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:15:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 6:26:27 PM EDT by Backstop]
"Man, you are out of your motherfucking mind!"

BANG BANG

"Yeah, it was close. But it wasn't that close. You and the wife coming over for dinner?"

EDIT:

Oops - Hold on - tired and forgot that it is "an advanced pistol class" and an "instructor."

I wouldn't shoot with somebody that I didn't know better than my family. And there aren't many like that.

Not to mention the instructor is whacko to let a 'student' do this. I'd question his stability letting an unknown student do this.

Again: there is a difference between an 'instructor' who you may see once a year and a 'buddy' who you see daily.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:19:29 PM EDT
Call the instructor a dangerous dumbass and demand my money back.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:30:53 PM EDT
OK, who's got the picture of the Chinese guy holding the target?
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:31:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AcidGambit:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I would do it, but I don't see a point. The only reason I see for that drill is to instill trust in guys who will fight together.



It is to benifit the shooter, to add stress. Like it or not, you get into a fight, there may actually be non-threats near the target you are engaging...
The times we have done it students reaction time slows down not a huge amount, but maybe 1/10-2.5/10 of a second (some are more extreem.) You will usually have a couple of students who's times are actually faster.
We always did it from leather (or plastic these days) and from concealment.



I'm all for increasing stress levels. But there are better ways to do that.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:38:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 6:41:40 PM EDT by voilsb]

Originally Posted By hk940:
I am really surprised at the number of people who would shoot.

I would have bet money almost everyone would have said walk…

I'm really suprised at the number of people who, if in an advanced pistol class, wouldn't have the confidence to safely make such a shot.

Heck, I've been on ranges where I can't even see the target I'm about to shoot at, and there are people a couple lanes over who are down range checking their targets.

The gun's not going to shoot where you don't aim. Have some confidence in your ability, or keep yourself very far from any course even remotely "advanced."
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:39:55 PM EDT
Oh yeah, everything I've said comes from the perspective of someone whose job it is to trust the man to his left and right to shoot over or around him while both he and they are moving, and so is the target.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:12:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By st0newall:
... ask for your money back..


+1 – and before he walks downrange!

I am personally responsible for every round I send out the barrel. I’m not going to unnecessarily send one even remotely close to an innocent person (even if they ask me to) simply to get the feeling of stress!

And while I have no way of quantifying it, I suspect the actual stress created is much less than that created by a well-conducted Simunitions senario.

This shooting a target next to a live person type drill is a known situation – you know what’s going on and if you don’t feel you can do it properly, you won’t do it to begin with. Has anyone ever heard of someone being shot in one of the drills? Where’s the stress - the remote possibility that it might happen?

OTOH, Simunition’s scenarios play on the unknown. Surprise, confusion, multiple inputs, the demands for both fast judgment and accurate marksmanship – added to the already existing anticipation of these issues and the real possibly of failure - can create plenty of stress.

About the only merit I see to this drill is maybe for a highly trained SWAT team or such where they’re simply trying to get comfortable firing at targets with innocents nearby. In this context I could see maybe a minor but useful benefit, nothing more.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:17:19 PM EDT
There is not enough information to answer the question. What is the distance between you and the target? 5 yards or 50?
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:21:26 PM EDT
I'd ask him to put an apple on his head.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:24:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 7:27:46 PM EDT by AcidGambit]

Originally Posted By hk940:
I am really surprised at the number of people who would shoot.

I would have bet money almost everyone would have said walk…



I suprised at the number of people who said they "wouldn't shoot."

The people who say they won't shoot obviously don't trust their abilities enough to shoot and hit a target roughly a more than a foot away from a no-shoot target, on a clear day, during the day, on a range, in a steady non-moving shooting stance.

The people who said they would shoot (note I say nothing about them standing next to the target) obviously lack confidence in their skills.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:26:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By hk940:

Originally Posted By Yossarian:

Originally Posted By hk940:

Originally Posted By www-glock19-com:
heh read SWAT this month huh?
Gabe Sauerez (or wahtever his name is ) did a class in Omaha last year with OPD
I shot IPSC with a couple of guys that were there they were very unimpressed
has to get shot at to keep his warrior edge
he used to troll at glocktalk bigtime and got banned

general opinon is he is a hack





that article prompted calls to a few instructors i know. I was surprised that a few of them actually said YEA! They did it with advanced students. Comments I got were you should see the group sizes shrink. When a 6”-12” group was good enough the students shot the two rounds as single holes or clover leaves. A couple of them talked at length with me and I still think they are nuts.




If you need a circumstance like that to tighten up your groups....then you suck anyway.

A 6"-12" inch group at anything less than 30 yards with a pistol is inexcusible.



other instructors have said if you shoot smaller than 6-12" inches you are taking to much time to aim and shooting too slow. 3 solid hits in a 12" circle in two seconds will beat two good hits in four seconds.


I agree do you want one nice little hole or multi system trauma?
I will take the trauma.

Out...
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:26:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 7:29:24 PM EDT by AcidGambit]

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By AcidGambit:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I would do it, but I don't see a point. The only reason I see for that drill is to instill trust in guys who will fight together.



It is to benifit the shooter, to add stress. Like it or not, you get into a fight, there may actually be non-threats near the target you are engaging...
The times we have done it students reaction time slows down not a huge amount, but maybe 1/10-2.5/10 of a second (some are more extreem.) You will usually have a couple of students who's times are actually faster.
We always did it from leather (or plastic these days) and from concealment.



I'm all for increasing stress levels. But there are better ways to do that.



Such as ? I don't think the 7-11 is going to have one bad guy and a bunch of white "no shoot" targets standing around him/her.

Fair enough, don't do it... Nobody will care... I would never look down on someone for not doing it (nobody in an Advanced class would.)

FWIW: In the two classes (once again, not Suarez) not one people felt it was dangerous enough to not do it.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:27:40 PM EDT
Grab the popcorn.
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