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Posted: 12/13/2005 12:39:04 PM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 12/13/2005 12:39:38 PM EDT
[#2]
I think the solstice is bright spot for GM They will sell the 20,000 a year planned production easy at MSRP. They supposedly have orders for 15k. I don't think you will find any sitting on lots for another year or more.
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Posted: 12/13/2005 12:46:37 PM EDT
[#3]
Here is my take paying someone the wages for "un skilled" labor. IE Assembly worker. You just cant pay someone that kind of wages to do that kind of job. These are as stated un skilled. Most can be done by someone right out of high school or potentially someone that is a high school drop out. They make the same or higher than someone like me who has a 4yr degree and is working in my area of study namely IT.
There are no more days of people having ot hand paint vehicles anymore or manually weld vehicles. On my tour of one of GMs plants about 5 yrs ago. The majority of the workers were spending time bolting parts down. Basically where machines are unable to get in and do it. The rest is basically automated by machines. So why are they exporting to Mexico? Yes cheaper labor. But why? Cause the work being required does not warrant the pay that is being expected. How would you feel if everyone at McDonalds made about 30-40k or more? Sounds great doesnt it? Yup. but what does that do? No more $1 menus. You now have to pay $10-$15 for an extra value meal. And why doesnt McDonalds not pay more? Cause 1, costs would go way up and 2, anyone can do the job. Don't want to think this is Union bashing, its more of please think about what impact it is having on costs. As to why GM is failing. Unions are only a part of the problem. Not the whole problem. Everyone I know that hates GM products are because of Inferior Product as compared to Foreign products. Gas mileage SUX!!!! Yes thats right. Can someone please explain to me why my 4cyl S10 gets 25mpg while a stupid full size V8 gets 30mpg? That has to do with engineering and management. So dont think I'm all against Unions. There is plenty of blame to go around. |
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Posted: 12/13/2005 1:00:40 PM EDT
[#4]
complicency
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Posted: 12/13/2005 1:13:59 PM EDT
[#5]
Fixed it for ya. That compounded by the UAW. |
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Posted: 12/13/2005 1:56:12 PM EDT
[#6]
The Japanese auto industry had to eat a lot of shit and pull a lot of dirty tricks to get where they are today.
What do they do differently? They plan and invest for the long term instead of looking at short term profit like so many American enterprises do. They knew if they built a reliable, decent vehicle, and sold it here at a loss, they would gain market share and brand loyalty. They are now beginning to reap the rewards from this investment as they ask more and more for their cars. The Japanese automakers live by the motto that a good reputation takes years to earn and only a moment to lose. If GM ever had a good reputation, I don't remember it in my lifetime. |
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Posted: 12/13/2005 2:09:58 PM EDT
[#7]
Do you people realise that around 30% of the cost of a car is because of LAWYERS?
While you are blaming this person or that person, the LAWYERS have made a mess of this country and our businesses. The real reason it costs too much to produce products in this country is because of liability. Product liability, enviromental liability, people suing manufactures for EVERYTHING UNDER THE SUN and getting BILLIONS of dollars due to ridiculous judgements. Want a 30% price reduction on the cars you buy? Get rid of the lawyers. |
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Posted: 12/13/2005 2:17:07 PM EDT
[#8]
Lawyers gotta eat too..
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Posted: 12/13/2005 2:20:01 PM EDT
[#9]
With the possible exception of the Corvette and the Cadillac and Buick, most GM cars can't compete in the global market with the products from Toyota, Audi, BMW, MB, Honda and Infiniti. You can bitch all you want about being a "loyal" GM owner...like I used to be. You are a sucker if you are serious because most of their cars are pure crap. And for the record, it is NOT the Jap worker killing American motor car companies. Honda and Toyota have very successful plants here, populated by American labor and those folks make some of the finest autos in the entire world. The Camry and the Odyssey are both made here and those just happen to be the most popular and reliable sedan and van in the world.
Lots of things killed GM and are killing Ford. Short sighted liberals in government killed GM. Union thugs and incredibly FAT contracts that included a free pass into "middle class" and moderate prosperity for folks who sometimes didn't graduate from HS killed GM. Contracts that provide some of the finest bennies known to man. Shitty designers killed GM. Inept managers killed GM. A refusal on the part of management and labor to compromise and adapt their product line in the face of STIFF competition from the Japs killed GM. Poor quality control processes killed GM. Old Age killed GM.  ETA: I'm old and I've owned many cars from just about every manufacturer including Honda, Ford, Chevy, Dodge, VW, Chevy again...Ford again, Nissan (Infiniti) and Shelby (Wish I still had THAT car!  ). I've been a car nut and a hot-rod racer all my life...and I have the highest respect for cars and engines made here...but as a family man who wants a great sedan or van, I'm sticking with Japanese marques. For trucks...I'll stick with my Ford.The most reliable cars we've ever owned have been our Honda Accord, the Infiniti I30 and my Ford Ranger. |
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Posted: 12/13/2005 2:23:14 PM EDT
[#10]
If that's the case, the 30% applies equally and thus can be eliminated as a factor of why GM and Ford is losing ground over the Japanese and others. Also, I can't think of many lawyer recommended features that's on cars to be sold in the USA market than the Japanese market. Lawyers are international. |
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Posted: 12/13/2005 2:29:59 PM EDT
[#11]
Granted I’m quibbling over an irrelevant issue, but I don’t think flying boxcars were used in WWII. Now back to the rant in progress! |
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Posted: 12/13/2005 2:30:28 PM EDT
[#12]
Sorry pal, you missed the boat here. People werent buying F-body cars in great enough numbers to support one factory and they will be back...a la T-bird. The Corvette is a supercar beater at 1/3 the price that gets 30 mpg. What's not to like? |
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Posted: 12/13/2005 2:44:07 PM EDT
[#13]
Death by 100,000+++ Hondas & Toyotas.
GM was busy trying to come up with new car designs that did not sell while Honda & Toyota make the same models & improve them every year - Civic, Accord, Camry, etc. edit for the spelling nazis. |
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Posted: 12/13/2005 4:12:07 PM EDT
[#14]
yup |
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Posted: 12/13/2005 4:16:50 PM EDT
[#15]
Those five words say it all. |
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Posted: 12/13/2005 4:19:42 PM EDT
[#16]
 Yeah, if you drive them at 50 mph and short shift. Everyone that I know that has a 2005 or 2006 'vette drives them like sports cars and get about 15-16 mpg. Since when does a Porsche 911 cost $180,000 dollars? The highest MSRP of any 911 model on the Porsche website is $81,400 and that is MSRP. The Z06 starts at $65,800 MSRP. |
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Posted: 12/13/2005 5:09:59 PM EDT
[#17]
The 911 Turbo and the soon to exist 997 Turbo (Woohoo!) are $115K-$130K. The GT3 is $130K-$140K and the GT2 is $180K.
And we won't even get into the "GT" which is $200K+. |
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Posted: 12/13/2005 6:20:49 PM EDT
[#18]
You can tell this gentleman does not own an FBody, and/or NEVER has spent any time over at LS2.com or LS1tech.com. I will let captainpooby in on a little clue. Ford was known to frequently lurk stangnet.net to gauge customer opinion and satisfaction. It was known that they took an interest in what the "little people" were saying about their Mustang GTs and Cobras. It is also known that GM didn't try hard enough on the FBody line. Try comparing the Ford SVT team to the Chevy/Pontiac 'don't give a phuck' team . . . . While the Ford GT & Cobra went through continuous improvement, we were seeing too many compromises left in the FBody line. AND to back that up, it is a well lamented fact that GM did not advertise the FBody line with any enthusiasm at the turn of the century. So the Fbody line closed due to slumping sales . . . Go figure. For it’s only current muscle car, GM gives us a 'GTO' that is nothing more than a rebadged Holden Monaro - an Aussie car. Even with a newer engine, an LS2 vs. my LS1, it has bad wheel hop and a habit of breaking axles, and is slower than my CETA. As to the Z06 Corvette, the 427cid LS7 is a beast, but if you knew more, you’d also know that GM left a LSx V10 engine design on the table due to political infighting. The V10 LSx would have given the Corvette even better hp/torque with better fuel economy. So Ford & Chrysler have a V10 but not GM. Compromises. Too little too late. Poor customer support. |
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Posted: 12/13/2005 6:31:42 PM EDT
[#19]
I can, with full confidence, say that the GM vehicles that my family has owned are light-years better than any Ford or Chrysler we have owned.
But the problem with GM is, yes, unions and managment are killing them. Also, they can't make a vehicle lineup that will interest everyone. GM currently has its stakes riding on sports cars, pickups, and SUV's. Nothing bad with that, but the problems lie in the above as well. |
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Posted: 12/13/2005 9:51:15 PM EDT
[#20]
But the non-turbo cars that were mentioned will run right with the 'vette. Forget about it keeping up with the Turbo cars. ALMS restricts the turbo 911 in GT1 so much that teams don't even bother. It has smaller restrictors than the 'vette and can hardly breathe and they really weigh it down. They let the 'vette run a 7 liter engine as well. Porsche chooses not to build a flat 6 anywhere near that size, so they just run the GT2 class. The GT3 is not a street car, it is a full blown race car with cage and all. The Porsches you see in GT2 in an ALMS race are GT3s as sold for the aforementioned $140k. It is not sold to be driven on the street, so $140k ain't a bad price for a race car. |
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Posted: 12/13/2005 10:10:54 PM EDT
[#21]
Being that GM has to be run for cash flow just to stay afloat its like a ship riding low in the water heading into a perfect storm.
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Posted: 12/13/2005 10:12:39 PM EDT
[#22]
There is a great book by the name of THE RECKONING about the rise of NISSAN they fall of FORD and the rebirth of Chrysler it is a bit dated as it came out in 86
A bit dry and 700 pages after reading it my conclusions were this bean counters can always be on the offensive and engineers have to always defend their ideas and they get shit on as the bean counters can make it look like they saved money whereas the engineers always look like they are costing money So guess who get promoted Iacocca was a car guy first bean counter second he took a big gamble but he had foresight to know what the public wanted at the time ( front drive and mini vans ) and bet the bank on it where GM and FORD kept putting out the same shit as they refused to invest in something new The japanese play chess not checkers they constantly improve products by small increments whereas the americans try to knock it out of the park and kill a design that does not immediately take off then come out with some other monstrosity I love the big 3 and i will not count GM out I just pray they can find their Iacocca and busting the union would not exactly hurt either |
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Posted: 12/13/2005 10:14:30 PM EDT
[#23]
Well said. The chickens are going to come home to roast before this is all over. It will get ugly. |
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Posted: 12/13/2005 10:24:53 PM EDT
[#24]
And guns kill people.  Unions haven't killed GM, GM killed itself. Bad management, bad leadership, bad ideas, bad products, bad decisions in a cutthroat market. Unions only made that worse, but they didn't create the lame horse they ride to its grave. |
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Posted: 12/14/2005 4:39:08 AM EDT
[#25]
naa that aint true my supervisor told me so. Now if you excuse me i gotta punch out, wax my bosses limo,Buy his grocerys, pick up his dry cleaning using my car and get his mistress some roses. He said if i get this all done in an hour he would give me a nice 1 cent bonus check. |
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Posted: 12/14/2005 4:51:51 AM EDT
[#26]
Only half right: part of the reason the American consumer will buy at Walmart versus Macy's is because American Corporations have had to trim the fat with either lay-offs, wage freezes or higher health benefit insurance contributions to cover their operation expenses that have made higher by increased taxes, increases in comp cases, overhead and health insurance. These increases come from a faulty legal system, greedy communities (made so by workers demanding that they should have raises while private sector employees have not gotten one) and a hemorrhaging health care industry that is paying MILLIONS out in malpractice settlements. Add all that to businesses that move to Mexico and Puerto Rico and Malaysia to avoid paying taxes in Illinois or Indiana (Lectron--first tier supplier to GM/Eureka Vacuums) and Massachusetts and Texas (Texas Instruments) and you get big business getting big and fat on cheap labor all the while selling their "American products" to you. Manufacturing is Dead in this country because of a myriad of reasons. Greed is definitely chief among them. While I believe capitalism is a VERY good thing, Capitalism without responsibility creates a kind of apathy which IMHO has become a cancer in this country. |
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Posted: 12/14/2005 4:52:17 AM EDT
[#27]
Show me an American built car, by an American company, that is as reliable as a Honda and doesn't cost an arm and a leg due to overpaid Union thugs, and I'll buy it. Crickets, crickets, crickets. |
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Posted: 12/14/2005 4:56:38 AM EDT
[#28]
Hehe... Fact is hardly ANY car is TOTALLY built in America these days... It's chop shopped from other nations. |
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Posted: 12/14/2005 7:35:58 AM EDT
[#29]
Listen blockhead, I once belonged to a union, and given the attitude and the shenanigans of the management, the workers needed a collective voice to protect themselves. But beyond my limited experience in the unions, Mr. Greywolf, there are a lot of good people in America that belong to unions. These employees that bargain collectively are no better or worse than you and your co-workers. If you don’t like unions, don’t join one. There are more non-union jobs now than ever for you to choose from. But remember, in America, workers have the right to assemble together and form groups to air their grievances. And that includes the job as well as the political arena. |
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Posted: 12/14/2005 7:42:54 AM EDT
[#30]
He needs to take a couple of economics classes.
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Posted: 12/14/2005 7:50:18 AM EDT
[#31]
Exactly, the blame is split down the middle. The cars cost more and deliver less so the American consumer has voted. Bad stuff ahead for GM. |
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Posted: 12/14/2005 8:00:23 AM EDT
[#32]
They sure do, and when the benifits they negotiate are top-notch, but the cars produced are not then they share a lot of the blame when the blimp comes down in flame. You can't demand excelent salery and benifits from a company that is not producing top selling cars and expect it to last. If unions spent as much effort trying to push for better products to be produced as they do to make sure that the whole department gets overtime if non-union Bob screws in a bolt because it needed screwing in then I'd have a lot more sympathy for them. |
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Posted: 12/14/2005 8:08:07 AM EDT
[#33]
There are a number of things that have contributed to the economic decline of this country. However, far and away the most significant factor is the short-term thinking that abounds. Corrporate compensation tends to reward results THIS YEAR as opposed to setting up a company for many future years of prosperity. In fact, one of the reasons that I support an end to estate taxes is that they contribute to the dillution of ownership that produces these short-sighted boards of directors. I think that a business with siginificant founding family ownership is more likely to plan for the long-term. I realize however, that such businesses will always be in the minority.
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Posted: 12/14/2005 8:16:53 AM EDT
[#34]
The problem with unions is that they are entirely alien to the concept of capitalism. Unions are in the domain of socialism and planned economies. Anything other than 100% free market capitalism is an abomination. Sure, union members might be nice people, but it does not change the fact that they are supporting a socialistic entity. Adam Smith is spinning in his grave .
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Posted: 12/14/2005 8:26:08 AM EDT
[#35]
I've seen this opinion before, and it's the screwyist idea a non-union, outside observer can offer. The collective bargining unit does not exist to promote the product, that is; do the advertising exec's job for them, likewise, it does not exist to design a better product, that is the engineer's job. The collective bargining unit is enjoined to speak for the needs and working conditions of the blue-collar workforce. The union is not formed to do the white-collar work force's job for them. If the white-collar people want representation, they can form a guild. ">>unions spent as much effort trying to push for better products"<< is a kind of blame off-putting. If you knew what it was like to work on a production floor, {and it's always obvious when the author has no concept} then you'd know that the little guy in the blue work shirt has very little say in anything. In the strict vertical hierarchy of the production plant, the workers have as much chance of petitioning the management for change as the army grunt does going outside of the chain of command and pleading with a general for a change in the battle plan. |
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Posted: 12/14/2005 8:33:19 AM EDT
[#36]
How about you just making your point WITHOUT the ad hominem attacks?  Having owned just a car from virtually every major manufacturer in the known world, I must agree with him. My German cars were junk. My American cars, WITH the notable exception of my Ranger truck which I will never part with, were junk. My Jap cars on the other hand...never break, are full of all sorts of "stuff" that came "standard" but are options on American vehicles and they are fun to drive. Even a cursory cost-benefit analysis would show you that the end-of-life cost for equivalent type vehicles from America and Japan show a big advantage to the consumer who purchases the Jap product. Why should I or any other American purchase cheap junk just to keep an American industry going and American [union] workers employed, when I can provide so much better for MY family? My GM cars were total junk that fell apart like the Bluesmobile just about the time the warranty ran out. Miz LWilde wants a new van. We've looked at several. Want to hazard a guess WHICH one she has picked out? Trust me...it ain't made by the Big Three...but it IS made in America. Why is it that our fellow Americans are making such fine autos at the Toyota and Honda plants in Ohio, Tennessee and elsewhere in America...hmmm? 
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Posted: 12/14/2005 8:39:06 AM EDT
[#37]
If you knew what it was like to work on a production floor, {and it's always obvious when the author has no concept} then you'd know WHY the little guy in the blue work shirt formed a collective bargining unit to speak with one voice. Bullsh-t about >>"the domain of socialism"<<is the provence of those too young to remember through their experience or that of their fathers what working conditions were like in production jobs before the unions fought for better working conditions. Like being told to sh-t in a bucket next to the job so no precious time is lost while the worker goes to the restroom like the management is allowed to. Too young to remember that there was a time when jobs were too precious in many areas of the country to just walk away from like the arrogant young of today claim is so easy to do. In conclusion, before spouting off about socialism, be a more rounded individual and do some honest reading about what it was like to work under the man, when ‘The Man’could order the hungry worker to do just about any damned thing because the ‘The Man’ knew how precious the job was. |
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Posted: 12/14/2005 8:43:52 AM EDT
[#38]
Get the log out of your eye first. You said "union thugs" don't pretend you didn't. It was a nasty broad brush stroke, and uncalled for. Erase the line, IM me that you did, and I will delete my my comments. Otherwise, they stay as posted, because good people are in unions like there are good people that own rifles. |
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Posted: 12/14/2005 9:08:51 AM EDT
[#39]
I work in a mixed shop and I see this stuff first-hand.
And when the collective is told that the company is not performing well and having difficulties the response is always the same. "Fuck you, give me my raise. Fuck you, pay the whole cost of my insurance. Fuck you, no part-time positions. Fuck you, give me my money. Fuck you no increased costs for benifits. Fuck you, rasises and bonuses based on years of service only." Now, from a strictly personal angle I can see the point. Nobody likes to take the shaft. However, you can't ride that pony forever. Eventually people will start being shed and the company may in fact falter if it continues to do poorly. How is it going to succeed when it wants to reduce operating costs but the union is fighting tooth and nail to keep everything? Where is the money going to come from? The product maybe? Does this perhaps perpetuate the bean-counters need for cuts in quality and price of parts?
Apparently not so much so, since you presume to know more about my work background than you in reality do.
I'm not suggesting that the redesign the product. I suggesting that a dogged refusal to accept that a poorly performing company can not both improve it's R&D and engineering and pay the same as it has been, and provide the same benifits, and not reward inovation and industrious work over simple years of service is a sure-fire way to burn it down. You can certainly extend the ride for a time, but the end will come just the same. |
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Posted: 12/14/2005 9:29:39 AM EDT
[#40]
This is turning into a union-bashing opportunity by thread hijackers.
 That was not the intention of the thread starter, Dance - Team Member We've got guys like LWilde calling union members Thugs Grunteled sez "the unions spent as much effort trying to push for better products" But when called on it, jumps into a union-bashing tirade. If you anti-union types want to rant in a union bashing thread, start one yourselves.. Invite me, I might stop by. I won't defend the unions totally, because they are no more/less perfect than the open shops. Same individuals, different day. But I've truly been in both places, not just observed. and I could not stand by and let the average union Joe get bashed like the DU would bash the average Joe gun owner, painting every member with a broad stroke and an ignorant personal agenda. Now get back to Dance's topic, which is why GM is failing. |
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Posted: 12/14/2005 9:42:38 AM EDT
[#41]
The purpose of this thread was to present the idea that Free Trade has killed GM. As such it seems perfectly valid to propose that is not the reason and present other ideas you think may have more to do with it. But thanks for being "Thread Monitor" for us though. Unions are not evil by definition and while you can't seem to hold back from calling any pointed criticism bashing and painting with a broad brush, you proceed to label everyone who disagrees with you as you see fit. That part is just fine huh? While they are not devils or communists they can (and do in my company) have a negative influence on performance. If you want to keep up with this "I don't know anything about it" crap than I can only assume that you not only know you are ignorant of my experience with it, but see it as no bar to commenting on same |
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Posted: 12/14/2005 10:03:12 AM EDT
[#42]
.
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Posted: 12/14/2005 10:04:21 AM EDT
[#43]
And yes, GM is failing because of Unions. As many people have said, toyota, honda, even hyundai have assembly plants in the US, that pay well and have decent benefits. Why are they raking in money while GM isn't? They aren't unionized, which allows them to pay slightly less, have 401(k)s instead of a fully funded pension program, and have a small copay on their health benefits. This saves them a couple thousand dollars on every car built, just for healthcare and pension. That money can go into better quality materials and better designs. While the unions have steadfastly refused to make any concessions in the areas of healthcare and pensions, so GM has to cut costs elsewhere (materials, design, engineering) to match their competitors costs/price. |
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Posted: 12/14/2005 10:27:30 AM EDT
[#44]
Now that's funny. The question was "why is GM failing". There are those who feel, with justification, that the unions are at least partly to blame. That is not a thread hijack, that is addressing the question at hand. The hijack was your post. |
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Posted: 12/14/2005 10:30:16 AM EDT
[#45]
You need to cool it with the name calling. As for the political arena, among the many things wrong with unions is that they back the Demonrats. |
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Posted: 12/14/2005 10:36:47 AM EDT
[#46]
Yeah, assembly line workers making as much or more than far more skilled workers, more than teachers, more than nurses. That is so out of line, it is truly sad. As for the stuff a long time ago, that's just it, it was a long time ago, so spare us the sob stories. I worked for one company for 15 years that was unionized and have worked non-union ever since for two companies in the same industry. I do know for a FACT that union reps would scold people who busted their asses for making others look bad. Instead of trying to get the others up to speed, the union wanted those that gave a shit to lower themselves to the level of the slackers. Needless to say, said union reps were told to go fuck themselves. |
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Posted: 12/14/2005 10:40:31 AM EDT
[#47]
GM was cutting costs on the backs of the comsumer with bad design and products before this decade began. People with long memories will confess the initititave to sell crap came after WWII when the automotive companies realized that pent up consumer demand would allow them to sell cars w/o some standard components, and the consumer would settle for it!! This was before big pensions, and big union wages. People with decent memories will confess that GM had to be dragged kicking to upgrade their designs and manufacturing processes by the foreign competition in the late ‘70s before the outrageous health care costs, and pension crises. While you are blaming the union for everything wrong in that GM ever did, you will have to explain why GM stumbled so often in design. Uh, GM killed the GTO for two decades because of the blue-collar union guy on floor got a raise. GM killed the popular Fiero because the unions . . . . . . Toyota owners were getting >100K miles out of their engines when GM owners were blowing smoke ~100k not because of engineering compromises, but the unions. . . . The unions did it, unions did it, unions did it, I hate union guys 'cause they make more than I do. The unions did it, unions did it, unions did it, I hate union guys because of their benefits. The unions did it, unions did it, unions did it, I hate union guys because they doen't work hard enough. BTW: Maybe you union bashers will take a moment and explain why companies have raided fully-funded pensions to prop up their bottom line. Then the company can't afford to meet it's pension obligations later. Like the gov’t raiding social security to pay for shortfalls in general revenue. |
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Posted: 12/14/2005 10:56:36 AM EDT
[#48]
You know what? You are all right. Even Pat Buchannon.
A large variety of things killed GM. Unions, Regulations, Mis-Managment. It comes down to this: We exported our greatest weapon to the world (Capitalism) and they kicked our asses with it. I honestly don't see how a country without manufacturing can stay on top, but then again, what do I know. |
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Posted: 12/14/2005 11:05:39 AM EDT
[#49]
I've not said they did it alone. Yes GM management and engineering have stumbled badly in places in design and quality. The company has problems, and unions and management are both floating around the same drain. Problem is nobody is looking to see how to close the drain, only how to make sure they float for a little longer. |
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Posted: 12/14/2005 11:20:13 AM EDT
[#50]
Again,
Unions might've been part of the reason, but the pure shit that GM (and Ford and Chrysler for that matter) have put on the lot for the last 30 years is eventually what killed them....Why in fuck would anyone pay the same money that they could pay for a Honda or Toyota or Nissan for a POS that's going to cost a fucking fortune in repairs over the life of the car, and that will fall apart well before it's paid for and has the resale value of Rosie O'Donnell's used douchebag the day it's driven off the lot? Consumers got smart. I'll buy a three or four year old used Honda or Nissan, for more money, before I'd buy any of the turds on wheels that sit at the local Big 3 lots new. ANd I'll get more car for my money, better resale, and longer service life. From a used car. I'm off to fire up my Nissan now... SG |
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