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Posted: 12/12/2005 4:47:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 2:40:44 PM EDT by guardian855]
My team leader from my Guard unit was involved in an incident last week. His wife and him were sleeping in their apartment, when at 3:40 am he heard a disturbance at the front door. He woke up and grabbed his Springfield XD .40 pistol (I don't know what ammo it was loaded with) and heads to the door. Just as he reaches the door to look through the peep hole, the door is broken down. A guy had broken the door down with his shoulder. From what I gather he advanced and started to grapple with my team leader for his pistol (he was still a little groggy, and was taken by surprise). While he is grappling with the guy, his wife calls 911. After a minute or two, he pushes the guy back, and still has his pistol. He raises it and fires twice, both shots hitting the intruder in the chest. He told me later that the guy didn't even blink and started to come towards him again, so he fires twice more, both of those shots hit him in the chest again. This time the guy goes down, and stays down. Died a few minutes later.
The strange thing is he and his wife don't know this guy, never seen him before in his life, and nobody knows why he choose to break into this apartment. The cops arrived, and confiscated his pistol, but did not arrest him. My team leader said he appeared to be high on something, but the toxocolgy report won't be ready for 6 weeks. Luckily for him they have a recording of him struggling with the intruder on the 911 tape, and he met with the District Attorney who told him it's a pretty clear case of self-defense.
Just thought I would share the story. Lesson one is be prepared for the stranger in the night, and lesson two is it might take more than two center of mass hits with a .40 caliber pistol to take the bad guy down.

Edited to add the newspaper article on it from the AZ Republic
Tenant kills apartment intruder

Dec. 7, 2005 12:00 AM

Police report that a Tempe resident shot and killed a man who broke into his apartment early Monday while he and his wife were sleeping.

They gave this account: The man, who lives at Elliot's Crossing Apartments at 7250 S. Kyrene Road, woke up at 3:40 after hearing an intruder beating down his third-floor apartment door.

The apartment resident, armed with a handgun, struggled with the assailant, who used his shoulder to force the door open. The resident then fatally shot the intruder.
Identities of the resident and intruder have yet to be released
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:49:34 PM EDT
Glad your friend is ok. He did GOOD.

I am in before someone calls bullshit or says he should have ran away.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:53:05 PM EDT
Wow.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:54:25 PM EDT
... Good, no one else will have to deal with that asshole's shit again - ever
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:55:34 PM EDT
sounds like a god shoot to me. my question is this: when one has this happen to them and the weapon is confiscated for evidence, does one get said weapon back? Keep in mind that this is a member of the guard so I presume that he will sometime in the futre. But what about us civi's?
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:56:19 PM EDT
Good shoot.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:56:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:56:45 PM EDT
why did he stop with two shots each time? I would have probalby still been reflexively pulling the trigger with the slide back when the cops got there.

No, I don't know what I really would do if I had to shoot someone...

Glad you friend is okay.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:57:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jmzd4:
sounds like a god shoot to me. my question is this: when one has this happen to them and the weapon is confiscated for evidence, does one get said weapon back? Keep in mind that this is a member of the guard so I presume that he will sometime in the futre. But what about us civi's?



The police told him to expect to not get it back for at least 6 months, probably more.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:57:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2005 4:58:32 PM EDT by MNGuns]
He gets his weapon back after the investigation, right...?



Beat to it....
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:58:13 PM EDT
Good shoot.

Tell him to practice some failsafe drills.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:58:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By home_with_kids:
why did he stop with two shots each time? I would have probalby still been reflexively pulling the trigger with the slide back when the cops got there.

No, I don't know what I really would do if I had to shoot someone...

Glad you friend is okay.



Thanks.

My Guard unit is Military Police, and we always train to shoot twice in the chest and evaulate the situation (in Law Enforcement type situations)
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:59:37 PM EDT
Glad it turned out OK. I've had dreams (nightmares?) where something like that happens and the damn gun won't fire. I keep pulling the trigger and nothing happes. I always wake up before the BG gets to me. Haven't had it lately, but it has happened numerous times.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:01:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By diesel1:
Glad it turned out OK. I've had dreams (nightmares?) where something like that happens and the damn gun won't fire. I keep pulling the trigger and nothing happes. I always wake up before the BG gets to me. Haven't had it lately, but it has happened numerous times.



I have the same nightmares.

Tell your buddy that he did the right thing and we're proud of him for protecting his family.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:02:06 PM EDT
Why did they take his pistol? I hope he has another one.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:02:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By guardian855:

Originally Posted By jmzd4:
sounds like a god shoot to me. my question is this: when one has this happen to them and the weapon is confiscated for evidence, does one get said weapon back? Keep in mind that this is a member of the guard so I presume that he will sometime in the futre. But what about us civi's?



The police told him to expect to not get it back for at least 6 months, probably more.




OK, but can he go out and get another? Did he have other weapons in the house that they confiscated?
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:04:30 PM EDT
Excellent results. BG dead, team leader and wife OK.

He won't be breaking any more doors down.

Sounds just hunky-dory to me!

HH
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:04:53 PM EDT
He did good, but he followed his training, which was flawed. Not something surprising.

Not bad overall, he gets a 7 out of 10.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:05:15 PM EDT
Thats one reason I hate peep holes, i learned quickly that it is not the best idea to stick your face up against a door when someone is outside

He did good but I am the kinda guy that if I could I would baricade myself and wait with a rifle or shotgun...
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:06:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By diesel1:

... I've had dreams (nightmares?) where something like that happens and the damn gun won't fire ...



... Get a 1911 in your next dream
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:06:22 PM EDT
Good shoot, good reactions on his part.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:07:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2005 5:07:31 PM EDT by home_with_kids]
My Guard unit is Military Police, and we always train to shoot twice in the chest and evaulate the situation (in Law Enforcement type situations)

Interesting. Even in a situation where body armor is likely? (not that your average burglar is going to be wearing a vest)

Its true, fight like you train, etc...

Is it standard proc. to take the homeowners gun after after an incident like this? Would they have taken a civilian policeman's weapon in the same situation?
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:08:14 PM EDT
If its a clear cut case of self defense he should get his gun back ASAP. If they are not going to press charges against him they have no reason to hold his property.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:08:21 PM EDT

(he was still a little groggy, and was taken by surprise).

Lesson one is be prepared for the stranger in the night, and lesson two is it might take more than two center of mass hits with a .40 caliber pistol to take the bad guy down.




I keep my G22 or my 1911 in a shoulder holster hanging on my bedpost at night while I sleep.....but that first few seconds, or minutes when you are startled awake from deep sleep scares the $hit out of me. I have had times when something has woke me, but I don't know what it is........and the house is quiet.

I'm glad your friend is alright.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:09:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Spade:
Why did they take his pistol? I hope he has another one.



Because it's not up to the cops if they are going to prosecute him for homicide or not, but the District Attorney, so they confiscate it while they do their investigation and to wait on the DA's take if they are going to clear it as self defense or take him to trial
(note: this is what I understand, not what he told me)
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:09:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jmzd4:
[

OK, but can he go out and get another? Did he have other weapons in the house that they confiscated?



That was the only weapon he had. Yes, he can go get another one (and will), and I loaned him one of my pistols for a week or so.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:09:57 PM EDT
Wow, I know you said you dont know what ammo it was, but do you know if it was FMJ or HP ammo?

Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:10:48 PM EDT
Good shoot. Hope he has another primary HD/Carry tool.

WTH does it take 6 months to get his pistol back. Is the crime lab so freaking backed up they can't process the gun before that. How hard is it to shoot a few sample rounds for ballistics?
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:12:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2005 5:19:18 PM EDT by vanilla_gorilla]

Originally Posted By home_with_kids:
My Guard unit is Military Police, and we always train to shoot twice in the chest and evaulate the situation (in Law Enforcement type situations)

Interesting. Even in a situation where body armor is likely? (not that your average burglar is going to be wearing a vest)

Its true, fight like you train, etc...

Is it standard proc. to take the homeowners gun after after an incident like this? Would they have taken a civilian policeman's weapon in the same situation?



Yes. Even the cop's gun will be confiscated. In many departments, I know they won't get it back for a minimum of 3 days, and only after an evaluation by a headshrinker.

Dave Grossman devotes several paragraphs of one of his books to what to do when someone you know or command is involved in a shooting, and one of the things he mentions is that when people who live, work and use guns constantly suddenly is disarmed, it creates severe tension and a feeling of "nakedness". Guardian855, if you have a spare gun and you trust him with it, I would suggest loaning it to him. It can mean a great deal in a time like this, not for his safety, but for his peace of mind.


Edit: Nevermind, I see you already have. Good man!
Edit2: Spelling
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:13:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By home_with_kids:
My Guard unit is Military Police, and we always train to shoot twice in the chest and evaulate the situation (in Law Enforcement type situations)

Interesting. Even in a situation where body armor is likely? (not that your average burglar is going to be wearing a vest)

Its true, fight like you train, etc...

Is it standard proc. to take the homeowners gun after after an incident like this? Would they have taken a civilian policeman's weapon in the same situation?



Unfortuantly with our budget we don't get to shoot or train with pistols that often. Most of our training is for wartime purposes and we focus on the M16a2, the M249 SAW, and the Mk-19 when we train. We shoot our pistols once a year, 50 rounds for qualification, so we keep it simple. My unit (and correctly so in my opinion) decided we don't train enough to go for two shots to COM, and one to the head, so we just keep it simple with two shots to Center Of Mass. That's not the ideal answer, I know, but you work with what you get. Him and I do go shooting on our own, we are not content with just the limited pistol shooting time we get with the company.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:15:21 PM EDT
Outstanding. He did the right thing. Buy him a beer for me if you will. I'm really glad he had the presence of mind to regain control of the fight. Getting suprised is a tough thing to overcome. He did very well, and protected his wife, and himself, and his home. Something to be proud of.
I hope he trains to keep shooting until the threat stops rather than two and asses in the future. In any case, that's not really important right now. I hope he gets his gun back soon.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:16:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:
Dave Grossman davotes several paragraphs of one of his books to what to do when someone you know or command is involved in a shooting, and one of the things he mentions is that when people who live, work and use guns constantly suddenly is disarmed, it creates severe tension and a feeling of "nakedness". Guardian855, if you have a spare gun and you trust him with it, I would suggest loaning it to him. It can mean a great deal in a time like this, not for his safety, but for his peace of mind.





Laugh, he actually said that to me, that he feels naked. He's cool now though, he doesn't feel naked with my Kimber Custom Classic .45 loaded with Winchester Ranger LE +P .45 ammo.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:18:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By zer04evr:
Wow, I know you said you dont know what ammo it was, but do you know if it was FMJ or HP ammo?




Keep checking back, I'll ask him in a day or two what it was loaded with.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:22:43 PM EDT
Glad your friend is ok. Hopefully the DA isnt a liberal jackass who likes to try all cases justfor the heck of it. As for another question, if he HAD more weapons, would the police have been within there rights to take them as well, even if they had been locked up? Ive alwayswonderedabout this. I keep my XD near my bed, but I have a safe with about 7k worth of guns in another room. If i acted in self defense with my XD, could the cops take all my weapons? If so I may need to buy another safe for my parents house.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:24:03 PM EDT
Boy did that guy pick the wrong house. I woke up at midnight one night with BANGING on my front door. My wife and I don't have any family or really close friends very close to where we live so I didn't hesitate to grab the 9mm. Turns out, it was my neighbor telling me that we had left the garage door to the house up. "Thanks, I'll shut it."
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:26:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By viper5194:
Glad your friend is ok. Hopefully the DA isnt a liberal jackass who likes to try all cases justfor the heck of it. As for another question, if he HAD more weapons, would the police have been within there rights to take them as well, even if they had been locked up? Ive alwayswonderedabout this. I keep my XD near my bed, but I have a safe with about 7k worth of guns in another room. If i acted in self defense with my XD, could the cops take all my weapons? If so I may need to buy another safe for my parents house.




Seems like it would be pretty hard to establish PC to take any of the other weapons unless they violated some minor law or ordnance regarding them, such as storage or some shit.

They MIGHT ask you to voluntarily give them up for the duration, but we ARFcommers all know the answer to that.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:27:03 PM EDT
Unfortuantly with our budget we don't get to shoot or train with pistols that often. Most of our training is for wartime purposes and we focus on the M16a2, the M249 SAW, and the Mk-19 when we train. We shoot our pistols once a year, 50 rounds for qualification, so we keep it simple. My unit (and correctly so in my opinion) decided we don't train enough to go for two shots to COM, and one to the head, so we just keep it simple with two shots to Center Of Mass. That's not the ideal answer, I know, but you work with what you get. Him and I do go shooting on our own, we are not content with just the limited pistol shooting time we get with the company.

There is NEVER enough time to shoot, it seems. I was trying to explain the mogidishu (spelling?) drill to my oldest (16 yrs, female) at the range, she wasn't getting the 'one-in-the-head' part. I finally, exasperatedly said, "you are firing a gun at someone, don't you think that will make him mad enough at you that you better make sure he's dead?"

by the way, thanks for you and your buddies service and sacrifice for us.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:27:43 PM EDT
Glad he's OK

Bomber
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:31:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:

Originally Posted By home_with_kids:
My Guard unit is Military Police, and we always train to shoot twice in the chest and evaulate the situation (in Law Enforcement type situations)

Interesting. Even in a situation where body armor is likely? (not that your average burglar is going to be wearing a vest)

Its true, fight like you train, etc...

Is it standard proc. to take the homeowners gun after after an incident like this? Would they have taken a civilian policeman's weapon in the same situation?



Yes. Even the cop's gun will be confiscated. In many departments, I know they won't get it back for a minimum of 3 days, and only after an evaluation by a headshrinker.

Dave Grossman devotes several paragraphs of one of his books to what to do when someone you know or command is involved in a shooting, and one of the things he mentions is that when people who live, work and use guns constantly suddenly is disarmed, it creates severe tension and a feeling of "nakedness". Guardian855, if you have a spare gun and you trust him with it, I would suggest loaning it to him. It can mean a great deal in a time like this, not for his safety, but for his peace of mind.


Edit: Nevermind, I see you already have. Good man!
Edit2: Spelling



Wondering about loaning him the pistol. I agree, good man to do so. My only question is should you sell it to him for a dollar? Are there any legal ramifications, if for example on the very outside chance someone else breaks into his house and he shoots them with your weapon? Or if your weapon is stolen while in his possesion? etc....

Again, I'm not criticizing your loaning him the weapon, I'd do it for my buds.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:32:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By viper5194:
Glad your friend is ok. Hopefully the DA isnt a liberal jackass who likes to try all cases justfor the heck of it. As for another question, if he HAD more weapons, would the police have been within there rights to take them as well, even if they had been locked up? Ive alwayswonderedabout this. I keep my XD near my bed, but I have a safe with about 7k worth of guns in another room. If i acted in self defense with my XD, could the cops take all my weapons? If so I may need to buy another safe for my parents house.




I would like to know as well.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:36:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2005 5:41:37 PM EDT by BIKECOP29]
Two to the body, one to the head. That's how we do it down here in Georgia.

ETA: Good shoot btw. Open and shut case.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:39:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:
Good shoot. Hope he has another primary HD/Carry tool.

WTH does it take 6 months to get his pistol back. Is the crime lab so freaking backed up they can't process the gun before that. How hard is it to shoot a few sample rounds for ballistics?



There's always a backlog at the crime lab. If crime has been going down nationwide, there shouldn't be a backlog right? I had to wait over 4 months one time for the state lab to tell me a dime bag was marijuana, even though I knew it was when it was seized.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:39:39 PM EDT
Glad he and his wife are OK. Talk to him and make sure he seems well.

This is the exact situation we all train for, practice at the range, and pray never happens. He did what he had to do.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:40:19 PM EDT
Glad to hear the good guy and his family are ok. I've got an XD-40 and I've always wondered about it's knockdown power. Do you think two rounds of .45 would have taken the guy down, or would it have taken four rounds.....just like the .40? I've heard storys of bad guys getting shot multiple times with a .45...and they still kept coming.

I always thought that my .40 has pretty good knockdown power. This story makes me think different. I'm sure choise of ammo makes a big difference also.

Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:47:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By imq707s:
Glad to hear the good guy and his family are ok. I've got an XD-40 and I've always wondered about it's knockdown power. Do you think two rounds of .45 would have taken the guy down, or would it have taken four rounds.....just like the .40? I've heard storys of bad guys getting shot multiple times with a .45...and they still kept coming.

I always thought that my .40 has pretty good knockdown power. This story makes me think different. I'm sure choise of ammo makes a big difference also.




I've seriously considered buying a .40, but I may reconsider based on this incident. Although the bad guy could have been pumped up on drugs.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:48:37 PM EDT
Glad your friend is okay. My guess is the guy was trying to get into someone else's home and picked your friend's by mistake.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:49:11 PM EDT
Glad to hear your buddy is O.K. Luckily he did have training and could regain his senses enough to fight back .
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:54:43 PM EDT
Sounds like a good shoot. Your friend might get his pistol back a little sooner depending on how the investigation goes. Looks pretty straightforward, with audio to back up the story.
As an aside, I would really like for the shotgun mafia (you know, the ones who saw off the barrel to make the shot pattern spread quicker and say you don't have to aim with a shotty) to explain how just hearing the slide rack would have stopped this guy in his tracks.
Hope your friend and his wife make it throught his OK. Probably going to be a little wierd living in the apt if the management doesn't move them to a new one.
Let him know he's got support.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:57:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By imq707s:
I always thought that my .40 has pretty good knockdown power.


In the training classes I took, one of the first things the instructors impressed on us what that none of the common defense calibers (9, 40, 45) are very powerful. One might be a bit better than the others but none compare to a rifle.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 6:00:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By m24shooter:
Hope your friend and his wife make it throught his OK. Probably going to be a little wierd living in the apt if the management doesn't move them to a new one.



He's already living in a different apartment complex, although his two couches got ruined. Blood soaked all over them.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 6:05:55 PM EDT
Similar situation happened in richmond a few weeks ago to a friend of mine in the city. Lady knocked on the door at 1am and I guess she thought it was someone else so she opened the door. It was a small lady on something that said she had the apartment leased to her. There was an argument and I think she tried to force the door. The lady backed off when theated and presented with a baseball bat and she was able to close the door. Her and her room mate called the police as the lady tried to get in the windows and stuff. Apparently she was on some drugs and the police picked her up. Turned out good.

Good thing your teamleader had a firearm and I am not at all surprised that the first shots were not affective. When people are all high they do not feel pain and are difficult to fight. He is lucky the guy didnt overpower him in that state or ripp an arm off and beat him with it.
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